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#1  Edited By Azura_Thena

I hope they continue to make more skins for this. I would love to see Wonder Woman in full Amazonian gear.

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@muyjingo said:

Sorry all for the delay in replying.

@azura_thena said:

No they didn't. The shock of the Kryptonian atmosphere (which he had never experienced outside of the first few days of his life) knocked him out but he was literally fine right after. They used some kind of Kryptonian tech to neutralize his powers. This tech is never elaborated upon but once Jor-El takes control of the ship, Superman is just fine even with Kryptonian air and bursts out of his restraints. Earth atmosphere provides more nourishment while Kryptonian air is vapid. Your understanding of the movie details needs adjusting.

Jor-El hologram? You mean the one that Zod killed?

Flying Zod to this planet that will sap powers and Superman somehow doesn't lose his powers himself?

You're flat out wrong here. Before you accuse others of not having an adequate understanding of the plot, you may want to check your facts.

Jax Ur (The Kryptonian scientist) states that on this ship he is as weak as a human. No Kryptonian device is seen or implied to be being used. When Jor El made the atmosphere on the ship like Earths, Superman regained his powers.

Zod destroyed a copy of the Jor El hologram that was uploaded, not the only copy.

Maybe he would lose his powers, but it would be a more heroic ending than killing. Besides, it could be explained that Superman was stronger, or at least had more reserve energy from being exposed his entire life to the yellow sun.

Besides, it doesn't makker if you like the ideas that I took no time to really put thought into or not. I'm simply demonstrating there were other options.

  • Facts were checked. I remain correct.
  • Yes, this is true but no elaboration was given as to how Superman's powers were neutralized. I gave very specific reasons as to how Earth air is not the source of Superman's powers. Please address those facts before trying to reassert your claim.
  • Jor-El was seen after his digital death? Where was this?
  • I don't think senseless self-sacrifice is ever heroic when there are more intelligent options.
  • There might be better options but you haven't presented any of workable quality.
@muyjingo said:
@azura_thena said:

I have provided very specific points in time to verify my claims. Please don't just take my word for it, peer review my findings. See for yourself.

When giving specific minutes into the film, you might want to give some hint as to the version of the film you have. Unless you were in the theater with a stopwatch.

  • Funny you should say that because being in the theater with a stopwatch was exactly what I did. ;)
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@azura_thena: So if it was tech, and not a difference in atmosphere, that did in fact remove supes powers on the ship, please explain why lois couldn't breath on the very same ship until Jor-el showed her how to turn the ships atmosphere to one like earths?

Lois couldn't breathe on the ship because it was vapid air and lethal to humans. That doesn't counter what I said in any way.

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@muyjingo said:

@azura_thena said:

It was not the Kryptonian atmosphere that took away his powers, it was a device that could neutralize his powers. This was also explained in the film. Once the device was switched off, Superman was super again. Notice that he became super and the Kryptonian that was there with him did not? By your logic, the scientist could have and should have easily restrained Superman until help arrived but that is not what happened.

What makes you think there was a device that neutralized his powers? That's an unfounded assumption, however plausible it may be.

Jax Ur states that aboard the ship, his powers from the sun are neutralized and he is as weak as a human.

Jor El changes the ship to have Earth atmosphere, and he gets his powers back.

It's not unfounded. Whatever it was that was neutralizing his powers was instantly removed when Jor-El took control of the ship. We know, via Jor-El's own words that Earth air is not what gives Superman his powers. The Kryptonian scientist specifically says that Superman's powers are neutralized aboard the ship but no elaboration was given as to how this was done. The only thing that we know for sure is that Earth air does not give Superman his powers, therefore the sun does and thus something within the ship had to be what neutralized Superman's power. Jor-El changing the air to Earth air did not return Superman's power because we know that Superman doesn't derive his power from the air but rather the sun. Earth air only makes things easier for Superman to do in much the same way cyclists train in high altitude settings so that when they race, they are beneficiaries of more nourishing air during competition.

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@azura_thena

You're the only one I see "verbally abusing" anyone here. The worst part is that you do it, and then constantly cite the rules and get on your high horse for everyone else who, even vaguely, comes close. You're not a mod, stop acting like one. It's people like you that turn these message boards into dry, humorless exercises in redundancy.

I am sorry you interpreted anything I said as an insult. Nothing I said was intended as such. I certainly don't think making the statement that someone's argument is flawed is an insult.

You are right, I am not a mod. But it is the responsibility of all users to report actions they believe to be against the rules and let the mods sort it out. That is what I have done.

Humor can be had without hurting others. If you don't believe that is true, then you might need to reflect on that some.

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@azura_thena said:

I did address that. I am sorry that you find my response below satisfaction but to be honest, I can say the same exact thing about how you have treated every single person here that disagrees with you.

If you do not care to convince others, that is fine too… but that just means you are here to verbally abuse others and that is not fine.

The righteous one strikes again. Telling us all what we can and can't say, and discrediting all our arguments by claims of "rudeness" and flags, thus ensuring her self-proclaimed superiority! Thank god she's here, otherwise, we might have a forum with free exchange and expression! How scary would that be?

Also, regardless of whether Cap is an "enhanced" human, or a "peak" human, Batman would still destroy him. It's not about who has the physical edge, Batman has the intellect, he's the brilliant strategist, the Odysseus of the caped comic world; he will always find a way to win, regardless of what strength and/or powers his opponent may possess.

It is not okay to verbally abuse someone here according to the rules. Are you saying that you should be allowed to verbally assault users here? I imagine the best chance you would have for that is to make a pitch to the staff on the subject, since they are the ones that created this site and do make the decisions on what is safe and what is not. You seem to dislike that I report bullying. Why might that be?

Your opinion that Batman will always win because he is Batman is flawed logic. Batman has lost before and will lose in the future, despite being Batman. Captain America has the physicals necessary to overcome Batman's technical knowledge. Let's not forget, Marvel has decided to label Captain America a brilliant strategist as well as his mind also enjoys the benefits of the super soldier serum.

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#7  Edited By Azura_Thena

@durakken said:

@azura_thena said:

Thank you for providing the quote that soundly defeats your own argument. How could that ship remove the sun's influence? If it was simply by momentarily being removed from sunlight, then Superman must be powerless whenever he goes inside him home or when he tunneled into the ice with his heat vision... oh drat! That theory doesn't hold up either. What a shame. You see, the ship (and whatever tech it had on it) was able to counter the influences of the sun, which gave him his powers, not the influences of the sun and the Earth's atmosphere.

No. The biosuits were consistent. You just failed to understand the details and when they were explained to you, you buried your head in the sand and refused to acknowledge them. They didn't sometimes have powers. The armor provided the Kryptonians comparable strength throughout the film. It comes as no surprise to think someone as full of himself as you are would miss something so completely and then accuse everyone else of being morons.

Oh now you want to partition the powers granted by the star and Earth atmosphere? I thought you said you wanted to go off of what is said in the film and not your imagination. It only took you one sentence to slide from one stance to another.

LOL there was no switch over. Flying doesn't negate the use of super strength. That makes absolutely no sense.

You seem to be unwilling to back up your previous statement that anyone that thinks this movie is good is an idiot. Why might that be?

Superman's flight likely come from energy generated by the sun. The movie shows a different effect when he goes from super jumping to being able to fly.

Superman couldn't fly in the ship, not because he was cut off from the sun, but because his super strength was lost and he was shackled to a table.

No the biosuits/kryptonian armor did not show to give Kryptonians super speed and strength save for the one instance in that battle. All other times they moved at regular speeds and showed common strength.

The movie apparently partitions, not I, and I didn't say that his flight negates his super strength. During the scene where he learns to fly there is a rather blatantly different effect between when he is super jumping which uses super strength and when he is flying which does not.

You seem to not be aware that even if what you are arguing is correct Zod's thinking is still completely stupid on quite a few other levels and that that fact escapes you implies just how much you are missing out of something you think is good which in itself is evidence that my statement is correct.

  • Having a different effect does not equal a different source of his powers.
  • The Kryptonian scientist specifically states that his powers were neutralized aboard the ship. How it was done was never elaborated upon.
  • Every single one of Faora's fights were within her biosuit and every single time, she showed super speed and strength.
  • That does not mean that Superman is partitioning his power. Only that he learned how to use a different power than strength required for jumping. He used all his powers in his fight with Zod simultaneously.
  • When you are in a state of intense despair and anger, you are not exactly thinking properly.
  • Also, I am flagging this and PMing the mods, as it is the second time you have called me stupid.

@durakken:

Don't sweat

azura_thena

. She's been patrolling the Superman threads with a vengeance, attacking everyone who didn't love this film and flagging everyone who says anything she perceives as vaguely insulting.

I

f it helps, I agree with you. This movie was filled with plot wholes, as well as tons of other glaring problems (i.e. the over use of CG and the lack of dialogue), and was obviously meant to cater to lowest common denominator.

I think I will include you in that flag as well.

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#8  Edited By Azura_Thena

@azura_thena: It was definitely NOT kryptonian tech that neutralized supes power on zods ship. It is shown, stated, and hinted at multiple times it is the differences in atmosphere. Jor-el even states that he is making the atmosphere on the ship like earths which is why lois is able to breath on the ship after that and how supes broke out of his restraints after that. There were a lot of things that weren't elaborated on in the movie, but they made this point pretty clear.

Except that it was. Superman still had his powers even when introduced to the Kryptonian atmosphere on the ship. Only when he was restrained was he powerless and once Jor-El had control of the ship, whatever it was that neutralizing his powers was removed. Note at 1:46:00, Lois suggests he might be weaker around the World Engine and at 1:25:20, Superman has been defeated by the World Engine, but up until that point, he had his powers while within the Kryptonian atmosphere and gravity. If what you say is correct, it would have been impossible for him to fly, use his super strength to damage Kryptonian metal, and super speed to combat the World Engine while around it. He does all these things. Earth's atmosphere is more nourishing and the finite Earth gravity both make things easier for Superman, but it is the yellow star, our sun, that gives him his power. It was the sun that revived him after his defeat by the World Engine at 1:25:20, which allowed him to destroy the machine.

At 49:20, Jor-El specifically says that his cells drink up the radiation of the sun, which gives him his power. Jor-El then continues with revealing that the air is more nourishing and that the gravity on Earth is less than on Krypton but he never equates this with Superman's powers but I believe the implication was that these additional things just make things easier for Superman to do, relative to what he could do without them. Also, at 1:22:09, the Kryptonian scientist only states that his powers have been neutralized on the ship, he never says how.

Once the atmosphere has been changed to Earth atmosphere on the ship, Superman still takes nearly 2 minutes to break free of his restraints starting from 1:24:06 to 1:25:50. Like I said before, the Earth atmosphere makes what he can do easier. If what you say is true, having Earth air should have allowed him to break free in seconds, just like he broke free of the handcuffs in the military base. That did not happen. He still had to struggle to get out with even Earth air and gravity aiding him.

I have provided very specific points in time to verify my claims. Please don't just take my word for it, peer review my findings. See for yourself.

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#9  Edited By Azura_Thena

@azura_thena: We have no reason to think HV would fair much better than most of the other crazy stuff in hurting him. If he was depowered and gould move through the "World Maker", why believe that he could be hurt with HV. More so, if he can be, there's no reason the ending couldn't have been exactly as I described, which is just a straight character cliche for these. I would've been more okay with that anyways.

Also, once again, that is literally superman's character. He's the guy who would rather be hurt than kill. Also, that's not what I mean by "dire situation" and you know it. Superman had to have eventually killed Zod by that point unless there was some other thing we all missed, but the way the entire scene was poorly done IMO. It's like batman putting the joker on his knees, and then just shooting him executioner style.

No, that's not how life works. Leverage advantage is huge, regardless of who is holding you. If you're almost equal in strength (Superman vs Zod), then you cannot overcome leverage. Zod would never have been able to just lean forward. Zod was also barely turning his head, making him face a different way would've totally stopped him from lazering the family. The reason this is hard for me to grasp is that it's totally and completely out of character and is a lame ending. Also, what other families? Every one else ran the moment the two entered. Also, unless people can now levitate, making face upwards prevents that problem. Also, in terms of the immediate, Zod goes out like a light thanks to him being choked out. That's a way better scenario short term, and they can deal with the rest later. Once again, I'm not even saying that killing is necesarily the wrong move, just that they it's presented was poorly done.

You're the one claiming "other families, other families". He literally should've killed everyone on that other side of the room. If no one is there, he should have no problem turning Zod to face that part, and then he doesn't have to kill him. You're entire argument against this hinges on your argument being wrong. You really can't see that?

Then he didn't try very hard, now did he?

Only because you refuse to accept any workable solutions by poking holes in your own theories or by showing a lack of understanding of things. The only reasonable point you've put up is that he can't fly upwards, and other than that you just keep saying random things that don't make sense!

Not really. So he didn't kill a weak human and likes saving lives. We never see him actually fight anyone else the entire movie, and no one else has presented him with a situation where even had to consider killing someone. Batman full tackled him into the railing, which gave way. He just saw a chance and went for it. That seems like a methodically planned out method of attack? Also, really? He would kill Dent and break his only rule on purpose when he had time to find another way, as you propose? That's rather silly in my view.

  • Actually there is. Just the use of heat vision was shown to hurt Superman, as he winced in pain after burrowing to the scout ship. He also used it to hurt Zod. Superman wasn't depowered as he FLEW through the gravity beam to the world engine. He still had access to his powers the entire time.
  • I am not denying that Superman would rather be hurt than kill but what good would that do in this situation other than make it more unlikely that he could prevail? As for what is ONLY your opinion, I disagree and I am of the opinion that you need to watch it a second time. Your relation to Batman is hands down, incorrect and an explanation as to why was already given. You are either going to ignore it, like you have already done, or see it for yourself.
  • Oh so on top of you being a brilliant scientist, you are also a prize fighter? Tell me more about how life works? I am only a woman after all. I could never understand something like combat. Barely turning his head is still turning his head, now isn't it?
  • It doesn't seem out of character to me. But I will allow you to prove your point. Please provide references for your case. I imagine that since you would like me to believe you have a deep understanding of the Superman, that you can back up your claims with evidence?
  • They were not limited to the train station. There were still some families within city limits.
  • Let's assume for a moment that Superman choked out Zod. Then what? Zod wakes up and they continue their endless battle with billions of lives at risk.
  • There were more than just that one family at the train station. They didn't teleport out of the city. So yes, even if they fled, every moment Superman refused to take ultimate action put those people at risk.
  • "You're entire argument against this hinges on your argument being wrong". You are going to have to explain that statement. I have no idea what you were trying to say.
  • No. They are not workable solutions because holes can easily be poked into them. What things have I misunderstood, oh grand intelligent being? Is this more of your, "Everyone that disagrees with me is an idiot" statements?
  • Hmmm... Superman never fought Faora or Non? Yes, no one else presented him with a situation that the only solution was to kill. But how then can you possibly claim that it was out of character when he did? There was no precedent for it.
  • Railing? There was no railing at all. I think you need to see the film again. Batman had exactly one whole minute to plan exactly how he wanted to attack Dent and he specifically chose to take him out of the building. I know you wont admit that you were mistaken but I might as well provide the facts for everyone else that is interested in who is actually correct on this matter.
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#10  Edited By Azura_Thena

@durakken said:

@azura_thena:

Actually the science guys says "In this ship" not "we have removed the sun's influence"

Those biosuits just show the inconsistency of the movie. They sometimes had powers and sometimes didn't. Sure I could make believe how it worked, but I'm going off what the movie said and did, not my imagination.

How did Superman fly through a gravity beam and atmosphere generator? As far as the gravity, it can be assumed that flight does come from the sun by way of using the sun's energy to create ani-grav or whatever is is necessary for it. The movie clearly shows that previously he was using strength to superjump and it was only until he concentrated that he was able to fly which means there is a switch over from using one to using the other. As far as the atmosphere, in general no, the atmosphere wasn't kryptonian yet. It also wasn't Earth's atmosphere. It was a mixture where in he wasn't at full capacity.

It's nice to know that you think the film is very very good and have shown, when these flaws you think you are logically defending are just flaws in the basic physics of the universe and I haven't talked about the structure of the movie. the editing, the writing, the characters, the cinematography, the lighting, the world in general, the misusing of characters, poor understanding of the real world and the DC world, the demonization of a pretty large section of the population to pander to another group which limits it's appeal at best, and so may other aspects that one can pull out and analyze and find to be just of poor quality.

Thank you for providing the quote that soundly defeats your own argument. How could that ship remove the sun's influence? If it was simply by momentarily being removed from sunlight, then Superman must be powerless whenever he goes inside him home or when he tunneled into the ice with his heat vision... oh drat! That theory doesn't hold up either. What a shame. You see, the ship (and whatever tech it had on it) was able to counter the influences of the sun, which gave him his powers, not the influences of the sun and the Earth's atmosphere.

No. The biosuits were consistent. You just failed to understand the details and when they were explained to you, you buried your head in the sand and refused to acknowledge them. They didn't sometimes have powers. The armor provided the Kryptonians comparable strength throughout the film. It comes as no surprise to think someone as full of himself as you are would miss something so completely and then accuse everyone else of being morons.

Oh now you want to partition the powers granted by the star and Earth atmosphere? I thought you said you wanted to go off of what is said in the film and not your imagination. It only took you one sentence to slide from one stance to another.

LOL there was no switch over. Flying doesn't negate the use of super strength. That makes absolutely no sense.

You seem to be unwilling to back up your previous statement that anyone that thinks this movie is good is an idiot. Why might that be?