Armistice

1 - Matthew Stafford traded for solid pick package as part of Detroit Lions full teardown rebuild - Check

2 - Stafford goes to team with actual talent, finds success, plays well - Check

3 - Cam Newton gets benched/released and can't beat out a rookie (Mac Jones) and a draft bust (Sam Darnold), sits for most of the season, only gets picked up out of desperation, gets benched again.

With no running game, receivers dropping like flies, the refs gifting the Bengals a TD with a no call, and the whole world knows he is throwing to Cooper Kupp, still executes 4th quarter comeback and wins the Super Bowl.

Checkmate.

See y'all in 2023

@supreme_sapien:

Back to the workweek so this will have to be the last of it on my end on this subject.

1 - What I actually said was "you don't base a player off their best or worst season, you base them off their career as a whole and the direction it is trending."

Meaning its not about winning the Heisman (something he did in college), or if they or their team has had one big year, its about how they have played overall in their career and giving priority to more recent seasons as that is far more relevant to the player they are now and will be moving forward.

Also I was not trying to be "slick" I was pointing out how using team accomplishments can be picked and chosen to spin him both ways, which are never a fair comparison as they rely things outside their control like defense, running game, and personnel. You want to use his highlight reel and forget the rest, that isn't a realistic picture of Cam.

Quarterbacks are measured by the eye test and the stats test.

Cam is an athletic and mobile QB who has always had accuracy and decision making issues, in his past 3 full seasons he has mirrored the same. Yes he posted a career high in his last full season in completion percentage, but the rest of his stats are mediocre at best. The 2 seasons prior he could not crack 60% and looked far more like his rookie season than his MVP season (which is his only actual elite season of his career). His tends are murky at best, and require him being fully mobile to have any value.

Stafford is a traditional pocket passer, low mobility, who was a gunslinger for the first half of his career and finally learned proper decision making and in the second half is a completely different player. All it takes is a glance at Football Reference to see this, it isn't deniable. His last 3 seasons have been pretty similar, and even the half lost 2019 was statistically one of his best seasons. His trending is consistent, but he also needs that back healthy to have value.

The trending shows that if healthy, you know what you are getting with Stafford, with Cam, not so much. Neither of us knows how either player is going to come back from injury, yet you keep proclaiming Cam will come back fine and Stafford is now washed and hopelessly broken based on....what? Truth is neither are a sure thing until they come back and show they are healed.

Stafford has been an above-average, solid, NFL starter for 6 straight years, it isn't debatable.

2 - Jets are not sold on Sam Darnold and have no one real behind him, Steelers could need to move on from Big Ben at any time with his age and injury history, Indy might find out the Phillip Rivers flyer is not working, Jags group is sketchy, Broncos are starting Drew Locke, Oakland is cooling on Derek Carr, Chicago is not excited about Trubisky or Foles enough to not be interested.

If healthy and made available he would have multiple teams making offers, saying otherwise is just silly.

3 - Saying Cam would have won 2 rings if you gave him Megatron has as much meaning as saying Stafford would have won a Super Bowl if he had the Panthers running game and defense, nothing, it is a hypothetical where no one knows what the outcome would be. Also 4 out of 5 of Stafford's most accurate seasons were..after Megaton retired so he sure seemed to have adapted pretty well.

You also keep talking about all the talent the Lions had that Stafford somehow squandered. No running game in forever, no defense in forever, this perception that Stafford is the weak link in the Lions roster makes no sense.

You keep picking and choosing to shine on Cam and gloss over the parts that aren't so pretty, you keep slamming on Stafford saying things that are 5 years out of date, neither are complete QB's, the end. Could Cam be better next season on the Lions, sure its possible, but unlikely and in the end futile. If Cam can walk in, on a team built for a pocket passer, learn a new system, and outplay Stafford just means he leaves next season to sign a longer-term deal elsewhere. Chances are he doesn't as learning a new team, playbook, and relying on Patricia to even accomplish that in the same season is asking for a whole lot.

3 - Mahomes and Jackson are mobile QB's who have already shown accuracy and good decision making, even this early in their career. Cam is not, he has had glimpses of accuracy, and rarely shown elite decision making, they are not in the same mold.

Look at the TD/INT ratios of Mahomes and Jackson, they are over 5-to-1, that is elite peak Brady and Rodgers territory. Other than his 4-to-1 MVP season Cam struggles to reach 2-to-1, something even a "washed scrub" like Stafford exceeds consistently.

Cam does not play their style, he does not have a record of passing to be a true double threat, and this applies to his entire and recent careers.

4 - So Antonio Brown and Josh Gordon were not the Pats taking flyers...hmmm.

Lets be honest here, if a team thinks a player is their Day One starter next season, they don't wait out a dozen other teams to snap them up on the cheap. They don't risk another team signing them, especially when they have no one waiting in the wings other than a recent draft pick with no experience.

The whole league had a shot at him and passed, every team other than the Pats in need of a starter went to the draft and grabbed one (since they pick too low to grab a top prospect). The market, made up of people with more access to data and info then either of us, left him in limbo even if he was available for a fraction of his old rate. That speaks volumes, saying otherwise is not being real.

Cam is there because he was available for league min with incentives, the end. If the Hoodie was enamored with him or had any real confidence he was healthy and could be molded into Brady's mid-term replacement he would have never waited this long. This type of player, coming off injury, signed to this kind of deal is the definition of a flyer as it has no downside and no upside, it is a tryout. If Stafford was not already under contract (and the cap hit for cutting him would not be huge) he would be in a similar boat.

5 - As much as you mention MVP 1,000 times (and never mention all the other seasons of far more pedestrian numbers), or rail against Stafford as a numbers-hungry stiff (which is 5 years out of date and requires a glance to see) in the end neither matter to the Lions long-term. You don't build a consistently contending franchise with their core and a veteran QB who is not top tier. You tear it down, get as many picks as you can, and rebuild.

It is painful, does not always go well, but gets results in the end. Staying on the treadmill of patching the team to remain mediocre at best is why bad franchises stay bad. Cam does not make the Lions a sudden contender, the thinking that such moves are the "missing piece" on a flawed roster is wishful thinking from a fan's perspective. You want to one day win and win consistently, think like a GM.

@supreme_sapien:

The "secret" to "knowing how to win" is a combination of getting good enough yourself, combined with being on a team with enough talent to make a run and having both peak at the same time. During Cam's tenure with the Panthers they finished over .500 only 3 times in 9 seasons, does that mean he forgot how to win 2/3'rds of the time? No, he peaked at the same time his team did and took them to a championship, you don't base a player off their best or worst season, you base them off their career as a whole and the direction it is trending.

Cam proved that he is good enough to lead a team to a super bowl at his peak, but nothing says he is at or even close to his peak at this point. If last season mirrored 2015 this would not even be a debate and we would both each grab an arm and jettison Stafford with a quickness to get Newton, that isn't the case.

I wouldn't trade Cam for Stafford because neither one is in the best interest of the Lions, best case Cam plays one year for the Lions, makes them slightly better but wins nothing, and leaves in free agency. The Lions are not the Bucs, a talented team in need of a QB where picking up Brady for a 2-3 year run tops makes some sense. They are better off bringing Stafford back, hope he comes back healthy and rebuilds his trade value, then trade him for picks and rebuild.

Cams completion percentage went down two seasons and then rebounded very well in 2018 (the rest of his stats, not really), if he did the same in 2019 this would be a different conversation, instead he went down so hard to say if that was an outlier or a sign he was trending upwards again. He has struggled to crack 60% over his career and by today's standards that is hilariously low.

Again you are talking about early Stafford and not later Stafford. His raw yards have gone down as he is no longer gunslinging, his completion percentage has went up, and he is throwing less picks. Still not great but your assessment is about 5 years out of date.

Also how is saying "I'd trade Stafford for 2 decent picks" considered "ride or die" LOL, I flat out said I'd actively move him if I could.

Neither of us has any idea how either of them are going to come back from injury, your making it sound like Cam is guaranteed to come back a stud and Stafford is destined to be washed up, which is bs. They are both coming into the season with question marks, they could both come back fine, both come back washed, or anywhere in between.

The Lions draft history is a comedy of errors, but, the only way you build sustained success is through the draft. Maintaining a mediocre core with free agents is how countless teams spent a decade plus floating between 5-11 and 9-7 and went nowhere, it is sports no-mans-land, every competent GM in every sport has realized this and acted accordingly. I'd rather them use the blueprint quality franchises follow and fail, then follow the blueprint to go nowhere and stay there.

Mahomes and Jackson are mobile QB's with no mileage on them, Cam has a decade of mileage and coming off a season ending injury. Mahomes and Jackson also had better seasons in 2019 (in their second seasons) than Cam has ever had, even his MVP season. Now I'm not pretending to know how the next 8 years will go for either, but comparing Cam of today to them moving forward other than "back in the day he was more like them" is disingenuous.

Cam missed 5 games other than last season, not 1, but either way I agree he is overall proven to be a durable QB, the injury-prone tag does not apply. But, until I see how he looks after losing nearly a full season to a foot injury, I'm not sold on him. He has value if he comes back healthy, but again, on the right team and in the right situation, the Lions are not it.

So the Pats are so enamored with Cam that they waited all this time to sign him, and then did so under a 1 year, low base salary and incentive laden contract. The literal definition of a "tryout contract" where they have little downside if he flops and no leverage if he is a stud because then they are bidding on him against the rest of the league next year. If he was the chosen heir apparent, they would have inked him to a multi-year deal so after he had a great year (as they would assume an heir apparent would have) they would not then have to pay through the nose on a new deal.

You are making it sound like the Pats had their choice of any QB in the league and chose Cam over all of them to replace Brady, when all they really had to choose from was the remaining free agent QB's and that is not exactly filled with confidence inspiring names.

Drew Stanton, Trevor Simian, Blake Bortles, Matt More, Cody Kessler...this is what was available, of course they signed Cam over them, the whole list are made up of washed or never was QB's.

Look, Cam is a good, low risk signing for the Pats, he fits where they are as a team and as a franchise, and IMO in the best spot for him to comeback and have the best year he could. Players do not have the same value, or same potential on every team the same. Cam is just a better fit on the Pats than the Lions, thats it.

Cam does not deserve the injury-prone tag, agreed, just coming off an injury.

But he also sat out there for more than just not being able to be given a physical

@supreme_sapien:

The fact he was a Hesiman winner 10 years ago and an MVP 5 years ago are....pretty much meaningless. Don't make the mistake bad GM's make, paying for past performance. If I had the choice of drafting Cam or Stafford as a rookie, I'd take Cam in an instant, if I had the choice after the 2015 season to get either under a long term deal, I'd pick Cam all day (even if that in hindsight would have been a disaster), but this is the here and now.

Since 2015 Cam's performance trended downward significantly for 3 straight years and then 2019 was pretty much wiped out due to injury. He has never been accurate as a passer, and accuracy is just as critical as scrambling ability in today's offenses. He also has 10 seasons under his belt and age robs the legs of a QB far faster than the arm. Without elite mobility Cam's value plummets and now he has a decade of wear and tear to add to the lost last season. Even if he comes back with mobility intact (best case scenario), how long will it last, and will he even be useful by the time the Lions manage to give him a roster to make a run with that suits him?

Stafford is Stafford, steady but not overly impressive, if the Lions are not willing to rebuild he is still the best option to maintain some level of capability and not bringing in a new QB to learn a system on the fly. That said, it is still a mistake, trade him to a solid team in need of an upgrade at QB and get in a position to draft a rookie with franchise potential. He has value, just not to the Lions at this point.

The comparison to Mahomes and Jackson is an insult to them. Mahomes walked into the league a unicorn and day one complete player (no one saw him being this good this fast, utter freak) and Jackson showed more growth as a QB between his rookie and 2nd year than either Newton or Stafford have over their entire careers. Cam can't pass well enough to even compare to the two of them, and Stafford, while a better passer than Cam, is a pocket passer only.

Yes, quarterbacks have traditionally been given more credit or blame than they deserve by the talking heads and sportscasters, so what? Never made sense then and doesn't now. This isn't basketball where one franchise player can turn a 25 win team into a 50 win team, in football no single player makes a team a contender without talent around them.

As for the Lions front office, agreed, from the top down, owners to scouts need to get drop-kicked to the curb. I have little faith the current regime can execute a proper rebuild, but what we have now is .500 at best and replacing Stafford with Cam is not going to change that fr even the mid-term. Best case is Cam comes in, plays well under the 1 year deal, and then he is gone to greener pastures after rebuilding his value some, he isn't signing long-term in Detroit. At that point we lose Stafford, Cam signs a multi-year deal with a better franchise, and we are rebuilding anyways.

Also the MVP > DNP comment....come on...Stafford missed 8 games in 2019 and before than had not missed a game in 7 years (after his first 2 years being hampered by injury, no question). Cam missed 14 games in 2019 alone so lets pretend that didn't happen.

Also it seems since this discussion started Cam signed a 1 year deal with the Pats, best thing his agent could do for him IMO. They are still in a win now if possible mode and if Cam is healthy I see the Hoodie getting the most of out him as well as being the best possible person to finally work out his worst passing traits.

@supreme_sapien:

First half of his career, yes, I'll agree with you on Stafford, he had all of Brett Favre's bad habits and little of the upside. He had impressive counting stats, but was not efficient and wiped out drives by throwing unnecessary picks trying to thread the needle instead of making the smart play.

Second half though, he has become much more efficient, cut down the turnovers, and become a much better quarterback. Not getting the Lions into or deeper in the playoffs is not on him, he rarely has enough to work with to really have a chance. Lions were constant disappointments long before he got there. He never sniffed having talent around him like Cam did like in 2015.

If we are spotting both of them being healthy post-injury, Stafford does not have Cam's ceiling (few do) but his floor his higher. Stafford is not going to miracle wins like Cam can, but he also is not going to implode games either. Plus if we are both being honest, neither QB is going to make the Lions even a fringe contender, they don't have the rest of the pieces in place. Also neither will be near their peak by the time the Lions put the pieces in place, they aren't the Ravens who year in and year out stack up their roster through the draft regardless of pick position.

Could Cam (if healthy and still has his mobility intact) shock people this season with a big comeback year, sure, but only on the right team and the Lions are not it. Bad coaches, lukewarm receiver core, no running game, offensive line is average at best, there is nothing that tells me he can walk in, learn the system, and succeed. Cam needs a stable system, not the constant dysfunction that is the Lions (and Matt Patricia's useless ass), he would be better off with the Pats (even with their questionable talent) simply to play under Belichick who would build the offense to suit him and maximize his talents.

Now if I was the Lions GM? I'd trade Stafford if anyone would give me two decent picks for him and rebuild, they are not going anywhere with him, or with Cam, so changing one vet for another is just delaying the inevitable.

If they had a team that could contend, and Stafford's back proves to have not really healed or permanently limited him, maybe.

But they are not a contender with a healthy Stafford, we still don't know what Cam will look like after his injury, and if both were healthy I'd still take Stafford at this point in their careers.

Stafford took a long while, but finally got past his bad gunslinger mentality, Cam on the other hand shows no sign of cleaning up the bad decisions that mar his Greek god physical gifts.

Finishing 6-10, 7-9, 8-8 every year does nothing but doom you to continue to mire in mediocrity. Other teams that have better front offices can pull plus starters and even stars from the mid to late rounds, but the Lions draft record sucks and the only way they are drafting franchise players is being so high up in the draft order they fall in their laps.

The Lions don't have the young core that could take the next step, if Stafford is permanently broken better to rebuild than stick Cam in and still have no chance of anything IMO.

In Memoriam, At the Dawn of a New Season:

To Mercy and her beloved New England Patriots, now that their god and savior Tom Brady has taken his talents closer to South Beach and left them quarterbacked by a former 4th round pick with a whopping total of 4 career pass attempts to his name.

That their nearly as beloved Gronk only came out of retirement, if he could play with Brady on another team.

Mourn as a dynasty goes to ash in a blink of an eye, mourn the bitter thoughts of enduring the first rebuild of your adult life, mourn all the now..deflated..Pats fans.

Welcome to the territory of a Lions fan, your hopes and dreams of gridiron glory ground down to the sad truth of "Mediocracy At Best", "Maybe make the playoffs as a wildcard only to get blown out.", but hey, at least we still have a real quarterback.

All those av bets won on the back of your mid-western demigod? Gone.

All the crowing the next day? Vanished.

Teasing Gambler about the Lions? Nope, welcome to the club.

Love, Dad :)

@_mercy_@nemesis_liafador

Hope Mercy is as OCD about saving things as I think she is, no way I'm going to dig through pages looking for it lol.

@_mercy_

Every time I check in this site is worse, like a corpse slowly decomposing.

Search function would have been considered dated in Windows 95.

It was easier to find Bin Laden than anything on here, CV is so broke they cannot even license a decent keyword search....smh.