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Bellatrix vs Snape: Ending the Discussion

I've created this thread to bring this discussion to an end once and for all as I've had several discussions in the Bellatrix vs Snape thread recently as for some reason it was bumped and most likely will be again. First I'll provide they're feats (for those who are not aware) and then I'll make my argument as to which is more impressive. Feel free to make an argument after you have read this if you still disagree with me.

Bellatrix's feats:

She beats Tonks while Tonks had the high ground advantage.

"(The man was pressing so tightly on Harry's windpipe that he could not breathe. Through watering eyes he saw Sirius dueling with a Death Eater some ten feet away; Kingsley was fighting two at once; Tonks, still halfway up the tired seats, was firing spells down at Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 707

"(Across the room Harry saw Tonks fall from halfway up the stone steps.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 708

She beats Sirius but it was circumstancial.

"("Harry, take the prophecy, grab Neville and run!" Sirius yelled, dashing to meet Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 708

"(Only one pair was still battling, apparentely unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: he was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall: his body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his god-father's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a omet as though in a high wind, then fell back into place. Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing - Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second ... But Sirius did not reappear.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix pages 710 and 711

She beats Kingsley.

"(Kingsley had run forward to continue Sirius's duel with Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

"(There was a loud bang and a yell from behind the dias. Harry saw Kingsley hit the ground yelling in pain.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

She stomped 4 Snatchers.

"(Lucius froze, his index finger hovering over his own Mark. Bellatrix strode out of Harry’s limited line of vision. “What is that?” he heard her say. “Sword,” grunted an out-of-sight Snatcher. “Give it to me.” “It’s not yours, missus, it’s mine, I reckon I found it.” There was a bang and a flash of red light; Harry knew that the Snatcher had been Stunned. There was a roar of anger from his fellows: Scabior drew his wand. “What d’you think you’re playing at, woman?” “Stupefy!” she screamed, ”Stupefy!” They were no match for her, even thought there were four of them against one of her: She was a witch, as Harry knew, with prodigious skill and no conscience. They fell where they stood, all except Greyback, who had been forced into a kneeling position, his arms outstretched. Out of the corners of his eyes Harry saw Bellatrix bearing down upon the werewolf, the sword of Gryffindor gripped tightly in her hand, her face waxen.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 373 and 374

She duelled a trio of Ginny, Luna and Hermione and was described as equal to them.

"(Bellatrix was still fighting too, fifty yards away from Voldemort, and like her master she dueled three at once: Hermione, Ginny, and Luna, all battling their hardest, but Bellatrix was equal to them, and Harry’s attention was diverted as a Killing Curse shot so close to Ginny that she missed death by an inch.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 589

Note: She didn't have her real wand when she fought the trio as it was taken from her earlier in the book.

"("Expelliarmus!" he roared, ponting Wormtail's wand at Bellatrix, and hers flew into the air and was caught by Harry, who had sprinted after Ron.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 382

Snape's feats:

He one shotted Lockhart.

"(Both of them swung their wands up and over their shoulders. Snape cried: "Expelliarmus!" There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: he flew backwards off the stage, smashed into the wall and slid down it to sprawl on the floor.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets page 142

He spite stomped Harry.

"(Harry tore past Hagrid and his opponent, took aim at Snape's back and yelled, "Stupefy!" He missed; the jet of red light soared past Snape's head; Snape shouted, "Run, Draco!" and turned; twenty yards apart he and Harry looked at each other before raisng their wands simultaneously. "Cruc-" But Snape parried the curse, knocking Harry backwards off his feet before he could complete it; Harry rolled over and scrambled up again. "Cruc-" yelled Harry for the second time, aiming for the figure ahead illuminated in the dancing firelight, but Snape blocked the spell again; Harry could see him sneering. "Incar-" Harry roared, but Snape deflected the spell with an almost lazy flick of his arm. "Stupe-" "Blockeed again, and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape, deflecting the curse once more. "Sectum-" Snape flicked his wand and the curse was repelled again. "Levi-" There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backwards, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince pages 561, 562 and 563

And stalemated Minerva while holding back and even right at the end managed to hold off her and Flitwick.

"(Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed: her wand slashed through the air and for a split second Harry thought Snape must crumple, unconscious, but the swiftness of his Shield Charm was such that McGonagall was thrown off balance. She brandished her wand at a torch on the wall and it flew out of its bracket: Harry, about to curse Snape, was forced to pull Luna out of the way of the descending flames, which became a ring of fire that filled the corridor and flew like a lasso at Snape - Then it was no longer fire, but a great, black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke, which reformed and solidified and in seconds to become a swarm of of pursuing daggers: Snape avoided them only by forcing the suit of armour in front of him, and with echoing clangs the daggers sank, one after another, into its breast - "Minerva!"said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells, Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor towards them in their nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear. "No!" squealed Flitwick, raising his wand. "You'll do no more murder at Hogwarts!" Flitwick's spell hit the suit of armour behind which Snape had taken shelter: with a clatter it came to life. Snape struggled free of the crushing arms and sent it flying back towards his attackers.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 481 and 482

Now for which of them I believe has better feats.

Now lets actually look at which of their showings actually matter.

For Bella her only 2 relevant feats are stalemating a trio of Hermione, Ginny and Luna and beating Kingsley.

Why her other feats aren't impressive:

Tonks is featless besides scaling off Bella which is circular so this feat is basically useless in terms of scaling and has absolutely no relevancy.

Her fight against Sirius is again not relelvant as it was circumstancial and all Sirius really has outside of that is accolades.

And finally her fight against the Snatchers has no relevancy either as Snatchers have no feats and are one shot fodder for Ron.

"("I managed to hit the one the one holding me in the stomach, grabbed his wand, Disarmed the bloke holding mine and Disapparated.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 311

Now as for Snape he only has one relevant feat.

Why his other feats aren't impressive:

One shotting Lockhart isn't impressive because Lockhart is featless and has been one shotted by Harry.

"(Harry reached his wand just in time. Lockhart had barely raised his, when Harry bellowed, "Expelliarmus!" Lockhart was blasted backwards, falling over his trunk. His wand flew high into the air; Ron caught it, and flung it out of the window.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets pages 220 and 221

Destroying Harry isn't impressive as Harry has been one shotted by Dolohov who in his own right is below Bella.

"("Expulso!" bellowed the Death Eater, and the table behind which Harry was standing blew up: the force of the explosion slammed him into the wall and he felt his wand leave his hand as the cloak slipped off him.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 138

So basically his only relevant feat is stalemating McGonagall.

Now as for the arguments as to why one is better than the other. Sorry Bellatrix fans Snape wins.

Lets look at there showings and observe why Snape wins.

No Caption Provided

Bellatrix Dies

A case study by ArkhamAsylum3

First lets look at Bella's showings in depth and where her logical power level stands in comparrison to high tier Death Eaters (members of Voldemort's inner circle).

So Bella in Deathly Hallows was stalemated by a trio of Ginny, Luna and Hermione and was stated to be equal to them (it is a common misconception that she was winning because she almost killed Ginny and I keep having to remind everyone that the passage states she is equal to them).

"(Bellatrix was still fighting too, fifty yards away from Voldemort, and like her master she dueled three at once: Hermione, Ginny, and Luna, all battling their hardest, but Bellatrix was equal to them, and Harry’s attention was diverted as a Killing Curse shot so close to Ginny that she missed death by an inch.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 589

Okay so now that I've established she did indeed stalemate them contrary to popular belief it is time to gauge her power level in comparrison to her members of Voldemort's inner circle. Now Ginny was completely outmatched by Amycus (a low tier member of Voldemort's inner circle despite being amped by Felix Felics).

"("You need what's wrapped in them, it's the Felix Felicis. Share it between yourselves and Ginny too.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince page 516

"(Ginny was locked in combat with the lumpy Death Eater, Amycus, who was throwing hex after hex at her while she dodged them: Amycus was giggling, enjoying the sport: "Crucio - Crucio - you can't dance for ever, pretty -")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 558

Now based on the fact that Hermione was nerfed due to not having her real wand I'd say she is roughly on par with Ginny as Ginny beat Malfoy who gave a fight to Harry who in turn is better than Hermione. The difference between them is minimal already so based on what I said above they should be roughly on par.

"("But Ginny was the best, she got Malfoy with a Bat Bogey Hex - it was superb, his whole face was covered in the great flapping things.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 670

"(Malfoy wheeled around, drawing his wand. Instinctively, Harry pulled out his own. Malfoy's hex missed Harry by inches, shattering the lamp on the wall beside him; Harry threw himself sideways, thought Levicorpus! and flicked his wand, but Malfoy blocked the jinx and raised his wand for another - There was a loud bang and the bin behind Harry exploded; Harry attempted a Leg-Locker Curse that backfired off the wall behind Malfoy's ear and smashed the cistern beneath Moaning Myrtle; water poured everywhere and Harry slipped over as Malfoy, his face contorted, cried, "Cruci-" "SECTUMSMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly. Blood spurted from Malfoy's face and chest as though he had been slashed with an invisible sword. He staggered backwards and collapsed on to the the waterlogged floor with a great splash, his wand falling from his limp right hand.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince pages 488 and 489

And finally we have Luna who is below both Hermione and Ginny and is basically featless.

From this we can gather each member of the trio is around half as powerful as your average Death Eater. Now time to approximate Bella's power based on this. Taking into account the fact that Bella was nerfed due to not having her real wand I'd say Bella has roughly double the power of her nerfed self and she is roughly equal to 3 Death Eaters. Now we can get to this conclusion based on the fact that Hermione (who also didn't have her real wand) wasn't that nerfed and still performed fine in The Battle of Hogwarts and managed to pretty effortlessly solo 2 Death Eaters (they were not members of Voldemort's inner circle).

"("I hate this thing," she said in a low voice. "I really hate it. It feels alll wrong, it doesn't work properly for me ... it's like a bit of her.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 419

"(Two masked Death Eaters stood there, but even before their wands were fully raised, Hermione shouted, "Glisseo!" The stairs beneath their feet flattened into a chute and she, Harry and Ron hurtled down it, unable to control their speed but so fast that the Death Eaters' Stunning Spells flew far over their heads. They shot through the concealing tapestry at the bottom and spun on to the floor, hitting the opposite wall. "Duro!" cried Hermione, pointing her wand at the tapestry, and there were two loud, sickening crunches as the tapestry turned to stone and the Death Eaters pursuing them crumpled against it.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 517

Now I said Hermione was not that nerfed which is true but Bella would most likely have been more nerfed considering the fact she was in a one vs three situation.

Basically from this we can gather Bella with her normal wand=3 High tier Death Eaters>Hermione, Ginny and Luna=Bella without her normal wand.

All of what I've said is further backed up by her other relevant showing which is beating Kingsley pretty desicively in The Battle of the Department of Mysteries who in turn is marginally better than two Death Eaters.

"(The man was pressing so tightly on Harry's windpipe that he could not breathe. Through watering eyes he saw Sirius dueling with a Death Eater some ten feet away; Kingsley was fighting two at once; Tonks, still halfway up the tired seats, was firing spells down at Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 707

"(Kingsley swayed across his field of vision, battling with the pockmarked and no longer masked Rookwood; another jet of green light flew over Harry's head as he launched himself towards Neville.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 708

"(Kingsley had run forward to continue Sirius's duel with Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

"(There was a loud bang and a yell from behind the dias. Harry saw Kingsley hit the ground yelling in pain.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

Basically Three Death Eaters=Bella with normal wand>Kingsley>Two Death Eaters=Trio of Ginny Luna and Hermione=Bella without normal wand.

Now as to why this is relevant and why Snape beats her.

Snape has been shown to be above Minerva which is made fairly obvious by their duel. Snape is holding back and still effortlessly defends himslelf from Minerva.

Time for my analysis of the duel which proves Snape>Minerva:

Snape must crumple, unconscious,"(Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed: her wand slashed through the air and for a split second Harry thought Snape must crumple, unconscious,

McGonagall moved so fast Harry thought Snape must have been knocked out but he wasn't. Snape blocks a surprise attack from McGonagall (who Harry describes as incredibly fast) which shows the vast difference in speed between the two (reactions and speed are key in a duel) and how fast Snape really is.

but the swiftness of his Shield Charm was such that McGonagall was thrown off balance.

This further emphasises my point. Snape is much faster and he can throw her off balance with a single spell. It is also worth noting that this is proof Snape was holding back as he doesn't follow up on this attack despite having an ample opportunity to do so. More evidence of Snape's superiority.

She brandished her wand at a torch on the wall and it flew out of its bracket: Harry, about to curse Snape, was forced to pull Luna out of the way of the descending flames, which became a ring of fire that filled the corridor and flew like a lasso at Snape - Then it was no longer fire,

Snape effortlessly transfigures an amount of flames big enough to fill a corridor.

but a great, black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke,

He uses a cosiderably less lethal attack which is most likely a distraction for Minerva to give himself time to shield himself behind a suit of armour.

which reformed and solidified and in seconds to become a swarm of of pursuing daggers: Snape avoided them only by forcing the suit of armour in front of him, and with echoing clangs the daggers sank, one after another, into its breast -

He effortlessly blocks another one of McGonagall's incredibly lethal attacks without even attacking himself.

"Minerva!" said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells,

Minerva continues to try to jinx Snape who is still effortessly defending himself without launching a single offensive spell in return.

Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor towards them in their nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear.

He's still defending himself from Minerva in the time it rakes the others to cross a corridor which is pretty impressive given how long the corridor actually is (Snape runs into a classroom, escapes and several lines of dialogue are exchanged after the duel before Slughorn has crossed the remainder of the corridor to get to the professors).

"No!" squealed Flitwick, raising his wand. "You'll do no more murder at Hogwarts!" Flitwick's spell hit the suit of armour behind which Snape had taken shelter: with a clatter it came to life.

Minerva needs Flitwick's help to gain offensive headway and Snape only flees once he shows up.

Snape struggled free of the crushing arms and sent it flying back towards his attackers.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 481 and 482

Snape uses one last distraction to escape from the professors.

Basically to sum it all up Snape effortlessly defends himself from McGonagall's attacks with her needing Flitwick to help her get an oppotunity to hit him with a curse whereas Snape had several opportunity's to jinx Minerva throughout the fight. Everything from the fight suggests Snape>McGonagall from his faster reactions to him having multiple opportunity's to attack her but resorting to distractions. Also lets look at the timing of this duel because several people seem to think it's short.

"(Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed: her wand slashed through the air and for a split second Harry thought Snape must crumple, unconscious, but the swiftness of his Shield Charm was such that McGonagall was thrown off balance.

Most likely around 2 seconds.

She brandished her wand at a torch on the wall and it flew out of its bracket: Harry, about to curse Snape, was forced to pull Luna out of the way of the descending flames, which became a ring of fire that filled the corridor and flew like a lasso at Snape

Most likely around 5 seconds.

- Then it was no longer fire, but a great, black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke,

Most likely around 2 seconds again.

which reformed and solidified and in seconds to become a swarm of of pursuing daggers: Snape avoided them only by forcing the suit of armour in front of him, and with echoing clangs the daggers sank, one after another, into its breast

Most likely around 7 seconds.

- "Minerva!"said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells, Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor towards them in their nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear.

Most likely around 10 to 15 seconds.

"No!" squealed Flitwick, raising his wand. "You'll do no more murder at Hogwarts!" Flitwick's spell hit the suit of armour behind which Snape had taken shelter: with a clatter it came to life. Snape struggled free of the crushing arms and sent it flying back towards his attackers.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 481 and 482

Most likely around 6 seconds.

Basically Snape held off McGonagall for 32 seconds bare minimum (30 seconds is around the average time for a duel) while holding back only using 2 offensive spells which weren't lethal and were most definitely distractions. This more than proves Snape is better than McGonagall.

Now that I've proven Snape>Minerva I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that Minerva was stated to be above 4 Aurors in Order of the Phoenix who are most definitely above Death Eaters as they are trained to be able to fight dark magic and dark wizards.

"(The figures around the cabin had shot no fewer than four Stunners at Professor McGonagall. Halfway between cabin and the castle the red beams collided with her.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 636

"("As if one of them could have stunned Minerva McGonagall face-on by daylight.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 644

Now as I've established previously in my post Bella at best is equal to 3 Death Eaters who are inferior to 4 Aurors.

Basically Snape>Minerva>4 Aurors>3 Death Eaters>Bella.

Sorry Bellatrix wankers your reign is at an end. Snape's better than Bellatrix by both feats and by statements.

RIP the Bellatrix wank thread in The Harry Potter underrated characters respect thread.

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