CW Prometheus Disrespect Thread

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All right I have created this thread to bring down this absolute joke of a villian to his correct level and highlight many of his embarrasing fails. Now I'll be covering all of Fodderetheus's fight scenes and proving that he's not nearly as good as everyone says he is. This Disrespect Thread will also include a bio but it most likely won't contain anything you don't already know. With that out of the way here it is.

Bio

Fodderetheus was the illegitiamte son of Justin Claybourne who was killed by The Hood back in Season 1. Seeking revenge when he grew up he took the name Fodderetheus and went on to torment Oliver both physically and mentally. Considering his Father was one shot fodder for Oliver it is no surprise Fodderetheus ended up failing to become a remotely skilled fighter so he could not physically beat Ollie and was repeatedly tagged by Ollie's lessers. He was also a complete fail at breaking Oliver mentally as after his attempt at breaking Olllie all he did was make Ollie a better person and Ollie quickly recovered. Again this isn't really surprising as his father failed to do anything significant and was killed off screen during season 1 which he carried over to his son. This actually seems to be a running theme with Fodderetheus that he inherited all of his father's traits of being an utter failure but despite this I am sure his father would be disappointed with him as he manged to fail even harder than his father. How is this possible you ask? Well it's quite simple. He killed himself in an attempt to kill Team Arrow but his master plan completely backfired because he forgot that team Arrow could hide in a plane to survive the explosion that was intended to kill them. The funniest part is he sabotaged the plane himself so it wouldn't fly off and was actively aware of it's existance and didn't even think Team Arrow could use it to survive the island they were on blowing up. So much for being a genius mastermind.

This guy was a better villian as a hallucination lol.

Skill

All right so I will start by analysing Prometheus's first skill showing. Here he gets tagged by Faketemis who had only just been trained.

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In the next gif he gets tagged by Mr Horrific who again had just been trained and was repeatedly losing to fodder.

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So basically Fodderetheus has been tagged by two trash tier fighters with one of the two having lost to fodder.

These however are only some of the embarrasing fails of Fodderetheus.

Fodderetheus was also tagged by Trashigilante (who is below Diggle and deserves his own disrespect thread) and failed to beat him in a contest of skill only winning due to abusing his strength advantage and chucking him off a roof.

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Fodderetheus also completely failed to beat Oliver multiple times and lost in the finale despite the fact that he had trained specifically to fight Ollie.

In 5x09 Ollie holds a firm upper hand despite Ollie being surprised Fodderetheus knew moves that were taught to him by Talia.

Analysis:

Let's look at the hits:

  • Arrow hits Prometheus: 8 times
  • Prometheus hits Arrow: 4 times

I counted. This isn't counting any parries/blocks, only solid hits. Breakdown:

Arrow shoots, Prometheus cuts the arrow in half. They run at each other. Prometheus launches onto Ollie and brings him down (1) then hits him twice in the stomach area (3). Ollie kicks him away (1). Prometheus kicks, Ollie blocks, and there's a few seconds of dodging and parrying. Finally, Prometheus tries with the right, and Ollie catches that, hitting him in the arm, flipping him over a table, then dropkicking him (3). He kicks him down before he gets up again, uses his leg to bring Prometheus down, gets up again, and kicks him again (6). He then catches another right from Prometheus, and hits him in the chest (7). Prometheus then catches Ollie's own punch and throws him over a table (4) then does that move that takes Ollie outta the game.

Note: The above analysis was not actually done by me it was actually done by SupremeGeneration so full credit to him.

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In 5x10 Ollie holds a firm upper hand against Fodderetheus and Fodderetheus only escapes due to Ollie being distracted.

Analysis:

Let's look at the hits:

  • Arrow: 2
  • Prometheus: 1

I counted. This isn't counting any parries/blocks, only solid hits. Note: there were also some cuts, so this is only what we saw. Breakdown:

Arrow's walking, senses Prometheus behind him, and they run at each other. Ollie gets first hit (1). What follows is a series of combos from Oliver that had Prometheus on the defensive, and there might actually be a third hit from Ollie in there but Prometheus apparently willingly blocked it with his wrist instead of hand. After moving Prometheus back, Ollie goes low and kicks Prometheus near the left heel, moving his foot (2) to gain a position advantage, and then they're both low. Prometheus tries twice to Arrow, only for the latter to roll out of the way.

-- Cut to Canary --

We get back and it appears Ollie is now dodging, flips out of the way, and hits Prometheus with Diazepam. It fails to do anything and there's a quick cut back to Felicity. Prometheus takes it out, and catches Ollie's bola arrow. Breaks out of it. Prometheus starts talking, cut back to Felicity, then back to the fight. Prometheus tells Arrow to choose (possible distraction, though it can likely be ruled out). After a few a quick hits, Prometheus catches a punch, prepares to do something but Oliver flips with it, which Prometheus uses to his advantage then kicks him (1).

Note: Once again the above analysis was done by SupremeGeneration so full credit to him.

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In 5x16 he gets destroyed by Ollie and Ollie holds a firm upper hand.

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In 5x21 in Fodderetheus's one good showing he actually holds the upper hand against Ollie but there is a few things to note.

  • Ollie pins Fodderetheus at the start to let his team past but by doing this places himself in a poistion where he can't hit Fodderetheus.
  • Ollie is then forced to let go of Fodderetheus because he can't hit him leaving himself open to be pushed back into the corner by Fodderetheus.
  • From then on Fodderetheus has a constant positional advantage with the high ground and room to move where as Ollie is continually trapped in corners or below Fodderetheus on the stairwell.
  • When they actually get to the ground Ollie brings Fodderetheus to the floor.

So to sum this up Fodderetheus's only good feat has a bunch of context to it.

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And finally in 5x23 he flat out loses without giving Ollie too much of a fight.

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Basically the point I'm trying to make is that Fodderetheus does not deserve the credit he gets as a fighter or a villian. As a fighter at best he is Thea tier as he has been repeatedly tagged by unskilled fighters and couldn't put down Trashigilante in a contest of skill. His best feat is giving a fight to Ollie but all of the fights have context and he trained to fight Ollie specifically. Besides everyone has given a fight to Ollie by this point that it is so unimpressive. And just to top it all of Fodderetheus's only fodder fight scene happens off screen and was an ambush.

Credit to Riddlerfan77 for reminding me of some of Fodderetheus's embarassing fails which made this disrespect thread possible.

Sorry to anyone who commented on my original Disrespect Thread as I accidentally deleted it so I've had to make another one.

18 Comments

Gellert Grindelwald Respect Thread

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"You fools, do you realise what you've done?"

"The obscurial was killed on my orders Mr Graves."

"Yes, and history will surely note that, Madame President. What was done here tonight was not right."

"He was responsible for the death of a No-Maj, he risked the exposure of our community, he has broken one of our most sacred laws."

"A law that has us scuttling like rats in the gutter, a law that demands we conceal are true nature, a law that directs those under its dominion to cower in fear lest we risk discovery. And I ask you, Madame President, and I ask all of you. Who does this law protect, us, or them? I refuse to bow down any longer."

-Gellert Grindelwald to The MACUSA: Fantastsic Beats and Where to Find Them

Do not read below the spoiler tags. This thread is currently being updated for Fantastic Beasts 2. The RT is incredibly incomplete and is in major need of an update.

Opener

Okay so I've finally got over my laziness and have managed to finally complete this Grindelwald Respect Thread. As with my previous HP Respect Threads (Remus and Sirius) I'll split this thread into sections which are Duelling Abilities, Magical Abilities/Academic Achievements, Physical Abilities and Accolades. Again there will be bio but it most likely won't contain anything you don't already know.

Note: Like with my previous HP RT's evidence for everything I say will be posted below in the form of a quote (and gifs as well in this case).

Bio

I hate summarising and no one really bothers to read these so I'll just link his story so far on Pottermore for that one guy that cares.

With that out of the way here is the actual RT.

Duelling Abilities

Grindelwald was a highly skilled and accomplished duellist as noted on Pottermore with many great feats in both the Fantastic Beasts Movie and in the books.

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Of course the first duel I am going to bring up is the duel between Dumbedore and Grindelwald. It was said to be an incredible spectacle and the greatest duel ever to take place. Both fighters were incredibly close and it is a great feat for Grindelwald that he managed to duel the Greatest Wizard of modern times (it should also be noted Dumbledore was in his prime unlike in his duel with Voldemort) for a decent while and barely lose.

"(They say, still, that no wizarding duel ever matched that between Dumbledore and Grindelwald in 1945. Those who witnessed it have written of the terror and the awe as they watched these two extra-ordinary wizards do battle.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 24

"("The spectacular duel of legend.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 28

"("Until they met for their legendary duel.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 292

"(Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone page 77

Grindelwald also duelled Dumbledore and Aberforth years prior to his final confrontation with Dumbledore and stalemated them.

"("The argument became a fight. Grindelwald lost control. That which I'd always sensed in him, though I pretended not to, now sprang into terrible being.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 574

"(A dramatic three-way duel between Aberforth, Grindelwald and Albus ended in tragedy when Ariana was killed in the crossfire. Albus and Grindelwald's friendship was over. Grindelwald fled, and Aberforth broke Albus's nose at their sister's graveside.)"

Credit: Gellert Grindelwald - the story so far - Pottermore

Grindelwald also one shots Newt Scamander an incredibly skilled magical zoologist without use of a wand.

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Note: Wandless magic is hard and it is basically impossible to even duel with it much less one shot which makes the feat much more impressive.

Grindelwald effortlessly blocks spells from Tina a trained Auor while holding back and not really paying attention to her.

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Note: I often see people bring this up as a showing for Tina but it really isn't that impressive and doesn't show any parity between Tina and Grindelwald whatsoever. If you look at the gifs you'll see Grindelwald doesn't fire a single spell at Tina besides at the end of the fight which triggers Prior Incantatum which actually has nothing to do with power.

Grindelwald while holding back destroys Newt again.

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Grindelwald one shots 5 Aurors with a deadly curse.

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And finally his best feat. He duels around 2 dozen Aurors and takes out 2 of them and was most likely about to take out more if not for Newt's intervention.

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Physical Abilities

Grindelwald has shown himself to be incredibly physically able and has great combat and reaction speed.

Grindelwald was able to fight 2 dozen aurors and consistantly create a new shield charm for each one that went down showing pretty insane reaction speed.

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Grindelwald manages to react to and evade Credence showing his great reaction speed once again.

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Grindelwald reacts fast enough to stop Credence from being run over by a train.

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Finally Grindelwald showed good pain tolerance as he mananged to resist torture form Voldemort despite having been imprisoned for 43 years and being old and frail at 115 years old.

"("... the emaciated figure stirred beneath its thin blanket and rolled towards him, eyes opening in a skull of a face ... the frail man sat up, great sunken eyes fixed upon him, upon Voldemort, and then he smiled. Most of his teeth were gone ... "So, you have come. I thought you would ... one day. But your journey was pointless. I never had it." "You lie!")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 369

"(As Harry spoke, his scar burned worse than ever, and for a few seconds he looked down, not upon the wandmaker, but on another man who was just as old, just as thin, but laughing scornfully. "Kill me, then, Voldemort, I welcome death. But my death will not bring you what you seek ... there is so much you do not understand ...")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 379

"(At once, Harry's scar felt as though it had split open again. His true surroundings vanished: he was Voldemort, and the skeletal wizard before him was laughing toothlessly at him; he was enraged at the summons he felt - he had warned them to summon him for nothing less than Potter. If they were mistaken ... "Kill me, then!" demanded the old man. "You will not win, you cannot win! That wand will never, ever be yours-" And Voldmort's fury broke: a burst of green light filled the prison room and the frail old body was lifted from its hard bed and fell back, lifeless, and Voldemort returned to the window, his wrath barely controllable ... they would suffer his retribution if they had no good reason for calling him back ...)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 382

Accolades

Grindelwald has great accolades from his time as a student to his time as Dark Wizard. As a student he was stated to be as brilliant as Dumbledore.

"("Grindelwald showed himself quite as precociously brilliant as Dumbledore")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 290

"("Both such brilliant young boys.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 291

"("Two clever, arrogant boys with a shared obsession.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 572

"(Dumbledore saw in Grindelwald an equal and the two became inseparable.)"

Credit: Gellert Grindelwald - the story so far - Pottermore

As a dark wizard Grindelwald was also stated by Dumbledore himself to be comparable to him.

"("I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skilful.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 575

In his time as a Dark Wizard he represented a dark time for the wizarding world and was stated to be a huge threat who caused hell in the wizarding world (particularly Europe) and is compared to Voldemort in the amount of destruction he unleashed.

"(Before Lord Voldemort, it was Gellert Grindelwald who caused hell in the wizarding world.)"

Credit: Who is Gellert Grindelwald? - Pottermore

"(Grindelwald caused chaos across Europe.)"

Credit: Fantastic Beasts film title revealed - Crimes of Grindelwald - Pottermore

"(Grindelwald’s ascent represented a dark time for the wizarding world.)"

Credit: Everything we know about The Crimes of Grindelwald so far - Pottermore

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In fact the threat he posed was so large he was stated to risk all out war with the No-Majs.

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His destruction became so bad No-Majs actually became aware of his threat and began an anti-wizard sentiment.

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His power was so great that he spread fear worldwide and The New York Ghosts Newspaper began to question whether anyone was safe.

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He was also stated to be unstoppable and that the only person who could defeat him was Dumbledore.

"("People were dying and he seemed unstoppable.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 575

"(And at the height of his power, when Dumbledore knew he was the only one who could stop him, he duelled Grindelwald, and beat him, and he took the Elder Wand.)"

Credit: Winning the wand - Pottermore

He is also stated to be an extra-ordinary wizard.

"("They say, still, that no wizarding duel ever matched that between Dumbledore and Grindelwald in 1945. Those who witnessed it have written of the terror and the awe as they watched these two extra-ordinary wizards do battle.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 24

He was stated to be one of the most dangerous wizards of the twentieth century.

"(Gellert Grindelwald, one of the most dangerous wizards of the twentieth century.)"

Credit: Durmstrang Institute - Pottermore

Finally he was stated to be the second most powerful dark wizard of all time.

"(The name of Grindelwald is justly famous: in a list of Most Dangerous Dark Wizards of All Time, he would miss out on the top spot only because You-Know-Who arrived, a generation later, to steal his crown. As Grindelwald never extended his campaign of terror to Britain, however, the details of his rise to power are not widely known here.)"
Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 290

Note: This is a British list and considering Grindelwald never set foot on Britain this list's objectivity of puting Voldemort first is called into question especially considering it was written as Voldemort was beginning his takeover of the country. So this list does not directly prove Voldemort is above Grindelwald which only furthers the accolades impressiveness.

Academic Achivements/Magical Abilities

Grindelwald was incredibly academically gifted and had a talent for the Dark Arts. Grindelwald was so powerful in fact that even when he was a teenager he was kicked out of school for using the Dark Arts in a school devoted to them.

"(At sixteen years old, even Dumbstrang felt it could no longer turn a blind eye to the twisted experiments of Gellert Grindelwald, and he was expelled.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 290

"(Grindelwald was born around 1883 but his place of birth is a mystery. As a young wizard he attended Durmstrang - a European wizarding school with a reputation for dark magic. The school expelled Grindelwald for twisted experiments and near-fatal attacks on his fellow students. He was only 16.)"

Credit: Gellert Grindelwald - the story so far - Pottermore

A testament to how much Durmstrang tolerated the Dark Arts is shown below.

"(Educated at Durmstrang, a school famous even then for its unfortunate tolerance of the Dark Arts.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 290

"(Durmstrang once had the darkest reputation of all eleven wizarding schools.)"

Credit: Durmstrang Institute - Pottermore

In fact Grindelwald's impact on Durmstrang was so great that even years later Krum comments on knowing Grindelwald's sign and shows utter contempt for Grindelwald's actions and expresses anger towards him.

"(Krum glowered over the top of his drink, watching Xenophilius, who was chatting to several warlocks on the other side of the dance floor. "Because," said Krum, if he vos not a guest of Fleur's I vould duel him, here and now, for vearing that filthy sign upon his chest." "Sign?" said Harry, looking over at Xenophilius too. The strange, triangular eye was gleaming on his chest. "Why? What's wrong with it?" "Grindelvald. That is Grindelvald's sign." "Grindelwald ... the Dark Wizard Dumbledore defeated?" "Exactly." Krum's jaw muscles worked as if he were chewing, then he said, "Grindelvald killed many people, my grandfather, for instance. Of course, he vos never poverful in this country, they said he feared Dumbledore - and rightly, seeing how he vos finished. But this-" He pointed his finger at Xenophilius. "This is his symbol, I recognized it at vunce: Grindelvald carved it into a vall at Durmstrang ven he vos a pupil there. Some idiots copied it on to their books and clothes, thinking to shock, make themselves impressive - until those of us who had lost family members to Grindelvald taught them better." Krum cracked his knuckles menacingly and glowered at Xenophilius. Harry felt perplexed. It seemed incredibly unlikely that Luna's father was a supporter of the Dark Arts, and nobody else in the tent seemed to have recognised the triangular, rune-like shape. "Are you - er - quite sure it's Grindelwald's -?" "I'm not mistaken," said Krum coldly. "I valked past that sign for several years, I know it vell.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 123 and 124

In his teenage years at school he was also described as an equal to Dumbledore as previously mentioned.

"("Grindelwald showed himself quite as precociously brilliant as Dumbledore.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 290

"("Both such brilliant young boys.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 291

"("Two clever, arrogant boys with a shared obsession.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 572

"(Dumbledore saw in Grindelwald an equal and the two became inseparable.)"

Credit: Gellert Grindelwald - the story so far - Pottermore

At school Grindelwald learned lots of different magical techniques and proved himself to be incredibly magically gifted and was obssesed with power. He carried these magical techniques over into his later life. He showed several abilities never seen before in the books and showed proficiency in techniques that have been seen in the books. In short he has shown proficiency in a vast array of different magical techniques.

"(Even as a student Grindelwald was obssesed with power.)"

Credit: Gellert Grindelwald - the story so far - Pottermore

First off he was capable of creating Inferi at the age of 16 as was mentioned in Deathly Hallows.

"("The Resurrection Stone - to him, though I preteneded not to know it, it meant an army of Inferi!")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 574

Note: While the statement does indeed say he needed the Resurrection Stone to accomplish this the fact of the matter is the people who are returned to earth via the Resurrection Stone act completely differently in from the reanimated corpses that were shown in Half-Blood Prince (Inferi) so Grindelwald would still need to transform the people taken from the Resurrection Stone into Inferi which proves he could indeed create Inferi without the Resurrection Stone.

As of 16 Grindelwald could conceal himself as well as The Invincibility Cloak.

"("And the Cloak ... somehow, we never discussed the Cloak much, Harry. Both of us could conceal ourselves well enough without the Cloak, the true magic of which, of course, is that it can be used to protect and shield others as well as its owner.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 574

He has also shown consistent wandless TK usage which as mentioned previously is incredibly difficult.

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He has been shown to be able to blast lightning from the end of his wand.

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He also has been shown to incinerate people with a single curse.

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Note: This is particularly impressive given that the only one shot killing spell we know of is The Killing Curse. This curse is also impressive because it could take out multiple opponents something the Killing Curse couldn't do.

Second Note: This was most likely a spell of Grindelwald's own invention considering we have never seen it used before in any other Harry Potter related content.

Grindelwald has also shown he is able to apparate in a duelling scenario which is impressive considering not many characters are capable of it.

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Finally Grindelwald showed skill with Occlumency when he managed to resist Voldemort and stop Voldemort from gaining information about The Elder Wand.

"("... the emaciated figure stirred beneath its thin blanket and rolled towards him, eyes opening in a skull of a face ... the frail man sat up, great sunken eyes fixed upon him, upon Voldemort, and then he smiled. Most of his teeth were gone ... "So, you have come. I thought you would ... one day. But your journey was pointless. I never had it." "You lie!" )"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 369

"(As Harry spoke, his scar burned worse than ever, and for a few seconds he looked down, not upon the wandmaker, but on another man who was just as old, just as thin, but laughing scornfully. "Kill me, then, Voldemort, I welcome death. But my death will not bring you what you seek ... there is so much you do not understand ...")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 379

"(At once, Harry's scar felt as though it had split open again. His true surroundings vanished: he was Voldemort, and the skeletal wizard before him was laughing toothlessly at him; he was enraged at the summons he felt - he had warned them to summon him for nothing less than Potter. If they were mistaken ... "Kill me, then!" demanded the old man. "You will not win, you cannot win! That wand will never, ever be yours-" And Voldmort's fury broke: a burst of green light filled the prison room and the frail old body was lifted from its hard bed and fell back, lifeless, and Voldemort returned to the window, his wrath barely controllable ... they would suffer his retribution if they had no good reason for calling him back ...)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 382

Closing Sentences

That's my RT.

Hope you enjoyed and if I missed anything please let me know and I'll add it.

This will be updated for Fantastic Beasts 2.

39 Comments

Bellatrix vs Snape: Ending the Discussion

I've created this thread to bring this discussion to an end once and for all as I've had several discussions in the Bellatrix vs Snape thread recently as for some reason it was bumped and most likely will be again. First I'll provide they're feats (for those who are not aware) and then I'll make my argument as to which is more impressive. Feel free to make an argument after you have read this if you still disagree with me.

Bellatrix's feats:

She beats Tonks while Tonks had the high ground advantage.

"(The man was pressing so tightly on Harry's windpipe that he could not breathe. Through watering eyes he saw Sirius dueling with a Death Eater some ten feet away; Kingsley was fighting two at once; Tonks, still halfway up the tired seats, was firing spells down at Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 707

"(Across the room Harry saw Tonks fall from halfway up the stone steps.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 708

She beats Sirius but it was circumstancial.

"("Harry, take the prophecy, grab Neville and run!" Sirius yelled, dashing to meet Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 708

"(Only one pair was still battling, apparentely unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: he was laughing at her. "Come on, you can do better than that!" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall: his body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his god-father's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a omet as though in a high wind, then fell back into place. Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing - Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second ... But Sirius did not reappear.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix pages 710 and 711

She beats Kingsley.

"(Kingsley had run forward to continue Sirius's duel with Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

"(There was a loud bang and a yell from behind the dias. Harry saw Kingsley hit the ground yelling in pain.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

She stomped 4 Snatchers.

"(Lucius froze, his index finger hovering over his own Mark. Bellatrix strode out of Harry’s limited line of vision. “What is that?” he heard her say. “Sword,” grunted an out-of-sight Snatcher. “Give it to me.” “It’s not yours, missus, it’s mine, I reckon I found it.” There was a bang and a flash of red light; Harry knew that the Snatcher had been Stunned. There was a roar of anger from his fellows: Scabior drew his wand. “What d’you think you’re playing at, woman?” “Stupefy!” she screamed, ”Stupefy!” They were no match for her, even thought there were four of them against one of her: She was a witch, as Harry knew, with prodigious skill and no conscience. They fell where they stood, all except Greyback, who had been forced into a kneeling position, his arms outstretched. Out of the corners of his eyes Harry saw Bellatrix bearing down upon the werewolf, the sword of Gryffindor gripped tightly in her hand, her face waxen.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 373 and 374

She duelled a trio of Ginny, Luna and Hermione and was described as equal to them.

"(Bellatrix was still fighting too, fifty yards away from Voldemort, and like her master she dueled three at once: Hermione, Ginny, and Luna, all battling their hardest, but Bellatrix was equal to them, and Harry’s attention was diverted as a Killing Curse shot so close to Ginny that she missed death by an inch.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 589

Note: She didn't have her real wand when she fought the trio as it was taken from her earlier in the book.

"("Expelliarmus!" he roared, ponting Wormtail's wand at Bellatrix, and hers flew into the air and was caught by Harry, who had sprinted after Ron.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 382

Snape's feats:

He one shotted Lockhart.

"(Both of them swung their wands up and over their shoulders. Snape cried: "Expelliarmus!" There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: he flew backwards off the stage, smashed into the wall and slid down it to sprawl on the floor.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets page 142

He spite stomped Harry.

"(Harry tore past Hagrid and his opponent, took aim at Snape's back and yelled, "Stupefy!" He missed; the jet of red light soared past Snape's head; Snape shouted, "Run, Draco!" and turned; twenty yards apart he and Harry looked at each other before raisng their wands simultaneously. "Cruc-" But Snape parried the curse, knocking Harry backwards off his feet before he could complete it; Harry rolled over and scrambled up again. "Cruc-" yelled Harry for the second time, aiming for the figure ahead illuminated in the dancing firelight, but Snape blocked the spell again; Harry could see him sneering. "Incar-" Harry roared, but Snape deflected the spell with an almost lazy flick of his arm. "Stupe-" "Blockeed again, and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" sneered Snape, deflecting the curse once more. "Sectum-" Snape flicked his wand and the curse was repelled again. "Levi-" There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backwards, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince pages 561, 562 and 563

And stalemated Minerva while holding back and even right at the end managed to hold off her and Flitwick.

"(Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed: her wand slashed through the air and for a split second Harry thought Snape must crumple, unconscious, but the swiftness of his Shield Charm was such that McGonagall was thrown off balance. She brandished her wand at a torch on the wall and it flew out of its bracket: Harry, about to curse Snape, was forced to pull Luna out of the way of the descending flames, which became a ring of fire that filled the corridor and flew like a lasso at Snape - Then it was no longer fire, but a great, black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke, which reformed and solidified and in seconds to become a swarm of of pursuing daggers: Snape avoided them only by forcing the suit of armour in front of him, and with echoing clangs the daggers sank, one after another, into its breast - "Minerva!"said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells, Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor towards them in their nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear. "No!" squealed Flitwick, raising his wand. "You'll do no more murder at Hogwarts!" Flitwick's spell hit the suit of armour behind which Snape had taken shelter: with a clatter it came to life. Snape struggled free of the crushing arms and sent it flying back towards his attackers.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 481 and 482

Now for which of them I believe has better feats.

Now lets actually look at which of their showings actually matter.

For Bella her only 2 relevant feats are stalemating a trio of Hermione, Ginny and Luna and beating Kingsley.

Why her other feats aren't impressive:

Tonks is featless besides scaling off Bella which is circular so this feat is basically useless in terms of scaling and has absolutely no relevancy.

Her fight against Sirius is again not relelvant as it was circumstancial and all Sirius really has outside of that is accolades.

And finally her fight against the Snatchers has no relevancy either as Snatchers have no feats and are one shot fodder for Ron.

"("I managed to hit the one the one holding me in the stomach, grabbed his wand, Disarmed the bloke holding mine and Disapparated.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 311

Now as for Snape he only has one relevant feat.

Why his other feats aren't impressive:

One shotting Lockhart isn't impressive because Lockhart is featless and has been one shotted by Harry.

"(Harry reached his wand just in time. Lockhart had barely raised his, when Harry bellowed, "Expelliarmus!" Lockhart was blasted backwards, falling over his trunk. His wand flew high into the air; Ron caught it, and flung it out of the window.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets pages 220 and 221

Destroying Harry isn't impressive as Harry has been one shotted by Dolohov who in his own right is below Bella.

"("Expulso!" bellowed the Death Eater, and the table behind which Harry was standing blew up: the force of the explosion slammed him into the wall and he felt his wand leave his hand as the cloak slipped off him.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 138

So basically his only relevant feat is stalemating McGonagall.

Now as for the arguments as to why one is better than the other. Sorry Bellatrix fans Snape wins.

Lets look at there showings and observe why Snape wins.

No Caption Provided

Bellatrix Dies

A case study by ArkhamAsylum3

First lets look at Bella's showings in depth and where her logical power level stands in comparrison to high tier Death Eaters (members of Voldemort's inner circle).

So Bella in Deathly Hallows was stalemated by a trio of Ginny, Luna and Hermione and was stated to be equal to them (it is a common misconception that she was winning because she almost killed Ginny and I keep having to remind everyone that the passage states she is equal to them).

"(Bellatrix was still fighting too, fifty yards away from Voldemort, and like her master she dueled three at once: Hermione, Ginny, and Luna, all battling their hardest, but Bellatrix was equal to them, and Harry’s attention was diverted as a Killing Curse shot so close to Ginny that she missed death by an inch.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 589

Okay so now that I've established she did indeed stalemate them contrary to popular belief it is time to gauge her power level in comparrison to her members of Voldemort's inner circle. Now Ginny was completely outmatched by Amycus (a low tier member of Voldemort's inner circle despite being amped by Felix Felics).

"("You need what's wrapped in them, it's the Felix Felicis. Share it between yourselves and Ginny too.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince page 516

"(Ginny was locked in combat with the lumpy Death Eater, Amycus, who was throwing hex after hex at her while she dodged them: Amycus was giggling, enjoying the sport: "Crucio - Crucio - you can't dance for ever, pretty -")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 558

Now based on the fact that Hermione was nerfed due to not having her real wand I'd say she is roughly on par with Ginny as Ginny beat Malfoy who gave a fight to Harry who in turn is better than Hermione. The difference between them is minimal already so based on what I said above they should be roughly on par.

"("But Ginny was the best, she got Malfoy with a Bat Bogey Hex - it was superb, his whole face was covered in the great flapping things.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 670

"(Malfoy wheeled around, drawing his wand. Instinctively, Harry pulled out his own. Malfoy's hex missed Harry by inches, shattering the lamp on the wall beside him; Harry threw himself sideways, thought Levicorpus! and flicked his wand, but Malfoy blocked the jinx and raised his wand for another - There was a loud bang and the bin behind Harry exploded; Harry attempted a Leg-Locker Curse that backfired off the wall behind Malfoy's ear and smashed the cistern beneath Moaning Myrtle; water poured everywhere and Harry slipped over as Malfoy, his face contorted, cried, "Cruci-" "SECTUMSMPRA!" bellowed Harry from the floor, waving his wand wildly. Blood spurted from Malfoy's face and chest as though he had been slashed with an invisible sword. He staggered backwards and collapsed on to the the waterlogged floor with a great splash, his wand falling from his limp right hand.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince pages 488 and 489

And finally we have Luna who is below both Hermione and Ginny and is basically featless.

From this we can gather each member of the trio is around half as powerful as your average Death Eater. Now time to approximate Bella's power based on this. Taking into account the fact that Bella was nerfed due to not having her real wand I'd say Bella has roughly double the power of her nerfed self and she is roughly equal to 3 Death Eaters. Now we can get to this conclusion based on the fact that Hermione (who also didn't have her real wand) wasn't that nerfed and still performed fine in The Battle of Hogwarts and managed to pretty effortlessly solo 2 Death Eaters (they were not members of Voldemort's inner circle).

"("I hate this thing," she said in a low voice. "I really hate it. It feels alll wrong, it doesn't work properly for me ... it's like a bit of her.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 419

"(Two masked Death Eaters stood there, but even before their wands were fully raised, Hermione shouted, "Glisseo!" The stairs beneath their feet flattened into a chute and she, Harry and Ron hurtled down it, unable to control their speed but so fast that the Death Eaters' Stunning Spells flew far over their heads. They shot through the concealing tapestry at the bottom and spun on to the floor, hitting the opposite wall. "Duro!" cried Hermione, pointing her wand at the tapestry, and there were two loud, sickening crunches as the tapestry turned to stone and the Death Eaters pursuing them crumpled against it.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 517

Now I said Hermione was not that nerfed which is true but Bella would most likely have been more nerfed considering the fact she was in a one vs three situation.

Basically from this we can gather Bella with her normal wand=3 High tier Death Eaters>Hermione, Ginny and Luna=Bella without her normal wand.

All of what I've said is further backed up by her other relevant showing which is beating Kingsley pretty desicively in The Battle of the Department of Mysteries who in turn is marginally better than two Death Eaters.

"(The man was pressing so tightly on Harry's windpipe that he could not breathe. Through watering eyes he saw Sirius dueling with a Death Eater some ten feet away; Kingsley was fighting two at once; Tonks, still halfway up the tired seats, was firing spells down at Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 707

"(Kingsley swayed across his field of vision, battling with the pockmarked and no longer masked Rookwood; another jet of green light flew over Harry's head as he launched himself towards Neville.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 708

"(Kingsley had run forward to continue Sirius's duel with Bellatrix.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

"(There was a loud bang and a yell from behind the dias. Harry saw Kingsley hit the ground yelling in pain.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 713

Basically Three Death Eaters=Bella with normal wand>Kingsley>Two Death Eaters=Trio of Ginny Luna and Hermione=Bella without normal wand.

Now as to why this is relevant and why Snape beats her.

Snape has been shown to be above Minerva which is made fairly obvious by their duel. Snape is holding back and still effortlessly defends himslelf from Minerva.

Time for my analysis of the duel which proves Snape>Minerva:

Snape must crumple, unconscious,"(Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed: her wand slashed through the air and for a split second Harry thought Snape must crumple, unconscious,

McGonagall moved so fast Harry thought Snape must have been knocked out but he wasn't. Snape blocks a surprise attack from McGonagall (who Harry describes as incredibly fast) which shows the vast difference in speed between the two (reactions and speed are key in a duel) and how fast Snape really is.

but the swiftness of his Shield Charm was such that McGonagall was thrown off balance.

This further emphasises my point. Snape is much faster and he can throw her off balance with a single spell. It is also worth noting that this is proof Snape was holding back as he doesn't follow up on this attack despite having an ample opportunity to do so. More evidence of Snape's superiority.

She brandished her wand at a torch on the wall and it flew out of its bracket: Harry, about to curse Snape, was forced to pull Luna out of the way of the descending flames, which became a ring of fire that filled the corridor and flew like a lasso at Snape - Then it was no longer fire,

Snape effortlessly transfigures an amount of flames big enough to fill a corridor.

but a great, black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke,

He uses a cosiderably less lethal attack which is most likely a distraction for Minerva to give himself time to shield himself behind a suit of armour.

which reformed and solidified and in seconds to become a swarm of of pursuing daggers: Snape avoided them only by forcing the suit of armour in front of him, and with echoing clangs the daggers sank, one after another, into its breast -

He effortlessly blocks another one of McGonagall's incredibly lethal attacks without even attacking himself.

"Minerva!" said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells,

Minerva continues to try to jinx Snape who is still effortessly defending himself without launching a single offensive spell in return.

Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor towards them in their nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear.

He's still defending himself from Minerva in the time it rakes the others to cross a corridor which is pretty impressive given how long the corridor actually is (Snape runs into a classroom, escapes and several lines of dialogue are exchanged after the duel before Slughorn has crossed the remainder of the corridor to get to the professors).

"No!" squealed Flitwick, raising his wand. "You'll do no more murder at Hogwarts!" Flitwick's spell hit the suit of armour behind which Snape had taken shelter: with a clatter it came to life.

Minerva needs Flitwick's help to gain offensive headway and Snape only flees once he shows up.

Snape struggled free of the crushing arms and sent it flying back towards his attackers.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 481 and 482

Snape uses one last distraction to escape from the professors.

Basically to sum it all up Snape effortlessly defends himself from McGonagall's attacks with her needing Flitwick to help her get an oppotunity to hit him with a curse whereas Snape had several opportunity's to jinx Minerva throughout the fight. Everything from the fight suggests Snape>McGonagall from his faster reactions to him having multiple opportunity's to attack her but resorting to distractions. Also lets look at the timing of this duel because several people seem to think it's short.

"(Professor McGonagall moved faster than Harry could have believed: her wand slashed through the air and for a split second Harry thought Snape must crumple, unconscious, but the swiftness of his Shield Charm was such that McGonagall was thrown off balance.

Most likely around 2 seconds.

She brandished her wand at a torch on the wall and it flew out of its bracket: Harry, about to curse Snape, was forced to pull Luna out of the way of the descending flames, which became a ring of fire that filled the corridor and flew like a lasso at Snape

Most likely around 5 seconds.

- Then it was no longer fire, but a great, black serpent that McGonagall blasted to smoke,

Most likely around 2 seconds again.

which reformed and solidified and in seconds to become a swarm of of pursuing daggers: Snape avoided them only by forcing the suit of armour in front of him, and with echoing clangs the daggers sank, one after another, into its breast

Most likely around 7 seconds.

- "Minerva!"said a squeaky voice, and looking behind him, still shielding Luna from flying spells, Harry saw Professor Flitwick and Sprout sprinting up the corridor towards them in their nightclothes, with the enormous Professor Slughorn panting along at the rear.

Most likely around 10 to 15 seconds.

"No!" squealed Flitwick, raising his wand. "You'll do no more murder at Hogwarts!" Flitwick's spell hit the suit of armour behind which Snape had taken shelter: with a clatter it came to life. Snape struggled free of the crushing arms and sent it flying back towards his attackers.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pages 481 and 482

Most likely around 6 seconds.

Basically Snape held off McGonagall for 32 seconds bare minimum (30 seconds is around the average time for a duel) while holding back only using 2 offensive spells which weren't lethal and were most definitely distractions. This more than proves Snape is better than McGonagall.

Now that I've proven Snape>Minerva I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that Minerva was stated to be above 4 Aurors in Order of the Phoenix who are most definitely above Death Eaters as they are trained to be able to fight dark magic and dark wizards.

"(The figures around the cabin had shot no fewer than four Stunners at Professor McGonagall. Halfway between cabin and the castle the red beams collided with her.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 636

"("As if one of them could have stunned Minerva McGonagall face-on by daylight.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix page 644

Now as I've established previously in my post Bella at best is equal to 3 Death Eaters who are inferior to 4 Aurors.

Basically Snape>Minerva>4 Aurors>3 Death Eaters>Bella.

Sorry Bellatrix wankers your reign is at an end. Snape's better than Bellatrix by both feats and by statements.

RIP the Bellatrix wank thread in The Harry Potter underrated characters respect thread.

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