By APEX_pretador 9 Comments
So here it comes. Anyone who has followed me through last 2 year ends should have anticipated this. The threads will be up soon.
So here it comes. Anyone who has followed me through last 2 year ends should have anticipated this. The threads will be up soon.
In the recent time, I have seen this topic come out a lot on battle forums - the debate between feats and statements, so I thought maybe I should make a thread regarding that.
Before going into this, let's take a look at types of statements based on source:
It is worth noting that some characters might be reliable for some feats and unreliable for some other feats. For example, Superman would be a reliable or semi-reliable character to know if Jay Garrick is running at full speed or not, but unreliable if it comes to Wally.
One important point to be noted is that we cannot generalize everything, and it varies from case to case like higherpower said below, but this is a loose attempt to generalize and categorize the types of feats, and the reliability of a character also varies from case to case.
So here is how we should proceed, in order of preference from highest to lowest:
1. On-Panel feats:
They matter the most. Panels cannot be biased or unreliable. They show what's happening. We see a character go inside sun and fight inside the sun unharmed shows they can survive in the sun. No amount of statements or implications supersede them. Often, the on-panel feats are supplemented by narration which explains the picture in words.
However, there might be underlying context - such as a character being weakened, amped, or some other forces at play. For example, MCU Thor and Iron Man destroying the floating landmass in Avengers: Age of Ultron had a bit of context. Before using these feats in battle, you should be aware of the context and how it affects the feat.
What makes on-panel feats easy to use is the fact that they are quantifiable. We can see the quality of feat performed on the panels drawn.
2. On Panel narrated feat:
There are some things pictures cannot describe alone - for example catching a projectile in microseconds or saving a million people in half a second. Therefore, they are described almost by narration alone. However, they are aided by visual evidence as narration quantifies the feat.
These hold about as much value as on-panel feats, perhaps a bit less.
3. Off-panel narrated feat:
Same as above, except feat happened off-panel. This may include things like Thor shattering planets in his fight against gorr. Here, the feat doesn't happen on-panel but the narration confirms that it actually happened.
This should be regarded as legit feat, but it is below on-panel feats in terms of preference
4. On panel reliable character-narrated feat:
A feat which takes place on panel, but is unclear, might be narrated by reliable characters.
5. Narrator statement, on-panel semi-reliable character narrated feat:
Narrator statements describe powers unleashed by characters in terms of potential feats like "the blow was strong enough to destroy a mountain" or "released enough energy to wipe all life on the planet" but the feats do not actually happen. These feats can be questioned
Narrator statements are basically the word of god on panel
On-panel feats, even when narrated by semi-reliable characters are given preference over off-panel feats narrated by guidebook statements.
6. Off-Panel guidebook statement feat:
Guidebook statements may confirm or debunk that a feat happened, like narrator's statement (see 3).
They are less usable than on-panel narration since the authors may be in a different mindset when they wrote the guidebook, or the authors working on guidebook may be different from those who wrote the comic in question.
7. Off-panel reliable character narrated feat, on-panel semi-reliable character narrated feat:
A character holds less value than narrator and guidebooks, but if the character is reliable enough, his narration holds almost as much value - given the feat actually happened
Or a feat which is on-panel but unclear and is narrated by semi-reliable character is likely to be true. For example, flash doing something fast and stating he did that something in a picosecond, or surfer doing something similar come under this category.
8. Author statements, reliable character statements, Off-panel semi-reliable character narrated feat:
Authors statements are word of god outside the printed pages. Now, this holds much greater preference if the entire verse is written by just one author - like Toriyama writing dragon-ball. However, mostly characters are written by a bunch of authors. Therefore no author usually has rights or total control over him.
Authors statements are basically just personal opinions but they hold as much value as reliable character statements because they do imply that the author is going to write a character with some power level in mind. So if a writer says Superman is a planet-buster, he would write superman accordingly. And if a writer says superman is mountain buster, he would write him accordingly.
Reliable character statements are pretty good analysis of what an author wants to show. They are mostly valid and rarely misleading.
An off-panel feat narrated by a semi-reliable character also holds the same value, since a semi-reliable character is mostly correct, but sometimes wrong.
9. Guidebook statements:
A statement regarding capability of a character given in any guidebook which is not backed up by any on-panel or off-panel feats of any kind. While character or narrator statements may back it up, on its own, guidebook statements hold less value than a statement from a reliable character on-panel.
However, official guidebooks provide details which have been missed by the panels of the comics, and these details must be taken into consideration depending upon how official the guidebooks are.
10. Semi-reliable character statements:
Semi-reliable character statements include statements like "I was about to hit black adam with enough force to split the moon in half", or "I punched with enough power to shatter small planets" by superman, or "Now I have enough energy to destroy the entire solar system" by super perfect cell. They are backed by no feats, no reliable character statements and the statements are not hyped up by other, more reliable characters.
There is no way to know if they are true or false, but it is more likely to believe they are true. However, they cannot be used as an evidence on their own, but they can be used to supplement other feats.
11. Off-panel feat narrated by unknown character:
An off-panel feat narrated by a character who may or may not be reliable holds less value than characters likely to be semi-reliable. The lack of reliability of a character hurts the feat, and stops us from using it as an evidence on its own. However, it can be used to back-up feats (from 1-7) to prove they are not outliers but even as a back-up, it might be questioned.
12. Unknown character statements:
A character with unknown reliability narrating the capabilities of another character is put in this category. For example, a Shi'ar imperial guard Manta saying that Gladiator can bench press planets is a good example. She has unknown reliability as a character, and this is a character statement not a narration of an off-panel feat.
It is certainly not usable as an evidence or even as a direct back-up. However it can supplement a back-up given by no 8-11 to a feat/evidence given by 1-7
13. In-universe hype:
A character's power level might be determined by in-universe hype. For example if a character fights alongwith Thor and Silver Surfer, then he is likely to be in the same league as them. Or if a character is feared by mid-tiers then he is likely to be a high tier.
On the other hand, if a character fights alongside Daredevil and Punisher, he is more likely to be street level. Or if he fears bullets and is careful against guns - or against falling rubble, he is more likely to be street leveler.
Again, this is not usable as any sort of evidence or even as direct back-up to the feats (like the above section), but can be used to supplement things used as back-ups for the feats.
14. Unreliable character statements or off-panel narrated feat:
When a character is unreliable regarding a certain feat, then it should be disregarded whether or not it is a narration of an off-panel event or a character capability statement.
These are completely inapplicable and unusable.
Examples would include spider-man saying that Sentry fought galactus to a stand-still, or saying that Black Bolt and Sentry are the two most powerful being in the galaxy.
To summarize, when it comes to being used in a battle, the feats, statements are used in the above order of preference. The higher order of preference show that they are more likely to be used as an evidence.
Now, again, remember that not everything can be generalized and categorized, but this is done here to give an idea on how it should be. Every case may be different and out of the bounds for any of the category, or even applicable to multiple sections.
And exceptions exist:
On the other hand, statements can be hyperboles and feats can be misleading to serve the plot. To determine a character's powers, you cannot ignore anything out of them except unreliable character statements. Foe example, like Jashro44 said below, If you put 100% priority in just feats, or 100% priority in just author statements your never going to get the right answer.
Well, these are my thoughts on the topic, and any suggestions are welcome. I hope this helps
This blog is dedicated to the biggest life saving instances performed by live-action superheroes in films. I'm listing the top 15 saves and it will be followed by some honorable mentions.
It is completely independent of the power level or "tier" of hero or villain. It depends on threat level and the number of superheroes making the save
The saves made by single hero are ranked highest, followed by minor help, followed by major help/combined effort followed by team-ups.
The threat level is determined by the damage to life, civilization and environment. Planet busting is a bigger threat than ending all life on the planet, but smaller than all life on 2 planets. Ending all life is a bigger threat than ending only all human life
Direct threats are ranked higher than potential threats. So, sokovia dropping is a higher threat than possibility of Ultron launching nukes.
If the possibility of a threat being stopped by humans/earth is higher, then it is ranked lower.
It includes MCU, Fox cinematic universe, and the DCEU
15. Iron Man saves New York from nuke and Chitauri at the same time: The Avengers
The damage done by chitauri was steadily increasing. Even The Hulk was starting to get overwhelmed. Even if the portal was closed down, the chitauri could have overwhelmed the tired avengers. To make matters worse, SHIELD officials launched a nuke.
Iron Man saves everyone by guiding the nuke through the wormhole, nearly dying in the process but saving millions.
Doomsday, powered up by a city's worth of power grid, and getting stronger after every blast, even after getting hit by a nuke, completely leveled an island via his energy emissions. He was destroying buildings and releasing enough power to easily wipe out civilization if let loose. With his super-speed and ability to leap very high, he could have ended most sentinent life on earth within months. There were no means to stop him or to save lives. He could have continued rampaging for eternity.
However, Superman sacrificed himself as he impaled him with the kryptonite spear, as he was restrained for a moment thanks to Diana and Bruce.
The extremely dangerous power of tesseract in hands of HYDRA during world war 2 could have been a menace to the earth. It was stated that if the best potential weapons were built, they could have ended all life on earth.
The powerful and frightening mutant En Sabah Nur (Apocalypse) tries to take over Xavier's body, transferring his consciousness into him. That would give him the power to mind control everyone on earth at the same time. Nightcrawler saved Xavier and every mind on earth by teleporting him out.
Thor knows Ragnarok is coming, so he saves the realm of Asgard from the eternal fire-demon Surtur by defeating him in a battle
Ultron has access to internet. He tries to overtake the nuclear access controls and launch nuclear weapons on earth at everyone and everywhere.
However, JARVIS stops this by changing access codes before Ultron can overtake them, constantly. Eventually, vision cleans him out of internet
Iron Man has a plan to stop the falling mountain of a landmass which requires Thor. But Thor may not escape alive, and the impact might still be devastating.
However, Tony's calculations prove right and both him and Thor survive the event, while destroying the city.
The motherboxes were going to terraform the earth over the time duration of hours. Likely all life on earth would have been gone. Superman and Cyborg managed to seperate the motherboxes and stop the damage to the earth's life
The world engine was increasing the gravity of earth several times over and changed the composition of the atmosphere. It would have instantly killed any animal bigger than insects by crushing under gravity alone. Any survivor, if any, would be bugs and newly-grown kryptonians.
Superman with all his willpower, ignoring the pain, destroys the world engine.
Ronan the Accuser, the rogue kree, has the power gem which can wipe out the entire surface of the planet Xandar if touched to the surface. Quick witted Peter formulates a plan to distract Ronan and take the gem away from him.
The eater of the worlds galactus is a cloud-like being who consumes entire planets. His servant Silver Surfer betrays him to save the earth.
Dormammu consumes planets and cannot be defeated, so Strange has a trick up his sleeve to save earth from being devoured
Ego the living planet is a celestial. With his son - Star-lord as a battery, he plans to undergo expansion, taking over other planets as extension of himself, starting with earth.
Hela was steadily getting powerful in Asgard. So Thor made the toughest decision of his life, because if Hela had access to Bifrost sword, she would have access to all other realms and other places in the cosmos. She could conquer entire realms and destroy entire civilizations on who knows how many planets.
Oh, and if it isn't clear enough, they also saved asgardian and sakaarian survivors from her
With the Aether, i.e. reality gem, Malekith could have covered the entire nine realms and the entire universe into a never-ending darkness.
Superman kills Zod, a potential unstoppable civilization ender
Hulk kills Abomination, a potential civilization ender
Thor kills the Destroyer, an extremely dangerous Robot, saving thousands or more lives
Here is a list of characters I can represent in a CaV. The list will be updated accordingly.
Nova Richard rider (both centurion levels and Nova prime levels)
This blog is dedicated to the most powerful beings in the marvel cinematic universe shown so far. Remember that while I will try to keep it unbiased and fair, it is still a matter of personal opinion.
Since I just watched every MCU movie ever, I think it is fair to do this now.
I will update it whenever needed.
Also, for this list, the characters' standard powers and gear is considered. So, if Iron Man can hack nuclear launch and control nukes, it does not make him a city buster.
Accidentally created by Tony stark while analyzing Loki's scepter, with the purpose to save the world, the powerful AI grew on its own and took over the internet. He later creates a powerful vibrainum body for himself.
He is strong enough to overpower Thor and powerful enough to harm him. He can create drones for him and his consciousness can exist as any one of them or a part of whole.
The last of the Kursed, he is also the most powerful of them. Being a loyal servant to the leader and the most dangerous of the Dark Elves - Malekith, Kurse proves himself to be strong enough to easily overpower Thor and nearly beat him to death. He comes equipped with a black-hole grenade which creates a miniature singularity.
In terms of physical might, he is unmatched except for a few metaphysical entities.
The leader of the dark elves, also the strongest and most dangerous. He is millions of years old, extremely cunning and deceptive. He commands the aether, the reality gem. He absorbs the Aether into himself and becomes so powerful that even Thor with all his might can only barely hold him off for 8 minutes.
At the point of convergence, he can destroy the nine realms using aether.
Thor, the god of thunder, can command thunder and lightning, storms, rain and tornados. In physical might, he can exchange blows with the Hulk, and his lightning can shatter miles of ice, and easily tear through the bifrost bridge like it was made of metal. After awakening his power while on sakaar, and back on asgard, he is one of the most powerful beings in marvel cinematic universe.
The sorcerer supreme, his magic makes Loki look like a toddler. He can create many things, open portals to any place or other dimensions, and can leave his body to create his astral form.
He is in the possession of several artifacts most prominently including the Eye of Agomotto, i.e. the time gem. With this, he can exert complete control over time itself, reversing time, stopping time and even affecting beings beyond time.
The goddess of death, she can destroy Mjolnir like made of glass. Her power is stated to be limitless in asgard. She can significantly hurt Surtur the fire demon. She is the elder sister of Thor
The fire demon surtur whose purpose is to bring Ragnarok, which is complete destruction of Asgard.
He succeeds in doing so and blows asgard to bits using his twilight sword.
The Kree accuser is one of the most powerful beings in the universe, capable of wiping a planet's surface easily.
A celestial, an ancient being, the father of Star-Lord. Ego the living planet is a sentinent being the size of moon who can consume other planets when fueled by a power source.
The most powerful being in existence. He cannot be defeated, only bargained with. He has devoured entire worlds into his dark dimension.
He is beyond time and controls a sentinent dimension
P.S. it is "preTAdor" not "preDAtor"
I joined about two years, 18 days ago. Past few weeks, I was too busy to do this blog so I'm doing it now.
All dragon-ball related, but I am going to make a few MCU RT's in future.
Also, these are old and need to be updated. I will update Freeza's RT soon, followed by Piccolo and maybe I'd update Tao someday.
The hero vs the villain, the good guy vs the bad guy. The alien who blows up planets vs the alien who saves planets. Space-powerhouses. Super-strong, super-fast, super tough, classic manga/anime vs comics.
The mad titan vs the asgardian killing machine, two super-brutes who can manhandle anything below skyfather level, just by using physical strength alone, and even Odin is pushed to his limits
The repeat, although inverse of classic manga/anime vs comic of my first CaV, the battle of unorthodox abilities.
Classic Marvel vs DC, power vs magic and technology
There are a bunch of unfinished CaV's too.
2016 Year end awards (polls) for comic-book movies released in 2016
Most of them died, but the first two were completed, and I'd appreciate if you vote on them.
In order of preferrence / how likely I am to represent them in a debate
In general, I am a high-tier debater who prefers marvel-cosmics, and to a lesser extent, Dragon-Ball and MCU characters mostly.
I am an Engineering student. I like:
I hate Roman Reigns, like Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Chris Jericho, Seth Rollins and Undertaker
I can solve hard-difficulty sudoku in 15-20 minutes and evil-difficulty sudoku in a few hours.
I don't know how to solve a rubik's cube
I can spend hours on it, if the game is good enough
Thanks for reading.
Superman tanked two 300 dB canons with mild discomfort, and 300 dB is like over a dozen times more powerful than a TSar bomb.
Now, the first rule on comicvine,
The area during the sonic blasters attack
The area after the sonic blasters
Now, you can clearly see the entire area is COMPLETELY INTACT after the sonic blasters attack. Now generally, you can call it inconsistency, but considering the following things:
TLDR: Zack snyder shows destruction as much as possible at the first chance he gets. If he intended the sonic cannons to be thousands of times more powerful than a nuke, he will definitely have shown it.
The feats of the manhole cover are:
and tanking the sonic canons with no problem.
So, the feats of the sonic canon are being unable to do anything to manhole cover which superman can tear like tissue paper.
Hell, when he throws it at them, not only they are unable to even slow the manhole covers, but if it was even 0.01% of 300 dB (260 dB) it would have disintegrated the manhole cover with ease. Even machinegun fire could have disintegrated the manhole cover easily, nevermind 300 dB which is compared to meteor impacts which create massive craters and cause destruction hundred of miles away.
Moving on further:
The machinegun fire is able to cause greater discomfort to superman or atleast as much as the sonic canon did, WITHOUT being focused on his super-sensitive ears which can hear from miles away.
This is further supported by seeing superman's behaviour afterwards.
After being blasted by sonic canons, (2:03) superman gently touches Bruce while talking to him.
After being blasted by only two machineguns, (2:51) superman grabs bruce by collar, lifts him up and angrily throws him. Then he goes at super-speed and angrily bullrushes him through a building, then throws him on batsignal, destroying him and yells "If I wanted you dead, you would already be dead"
Now, moving on further
Now, back on 300 dB, DC loves to throw the dceibels term around without being backed by facts.
Cyborg, basically a mid tier, who will get stomped by Iron man
Silver Banshee did like a Billion Decibel Scream which supergirl tanked and before that caused broken windows and deafness in a mile radius.
To give you an Idea what 50,000 dB is like,
Supernova contains about 10^46 J energy. That's about 600 dB. Kiloton Nukes are compared to 220 dB Galaxy busting would be about 10 billion supernovas, that's about 700 dB
Universe is about 100 billion galaxies, so universe busting will require about 810 dB.
At 1000 dB, someone should be able to destroy about 10^24 universes, that is about 10000000 trillion universes.
Now, imagine 50,000 dB and million decibels and billion decibels 50,000 dB would probably atomize Living Tribunal and the presence and mr Mxyzptlk etc all at the same time.
These examples prove that DC knows nothing about the decibel scale and just throws numbers like nothing.
I wouldn't be writing the script of my film based on battles forum feats but instead based on what looks good. I would have Superman tank a powerful sonic blast, and then later when asked how powerful the sonic blast was say "300 decibels" because I know that a rock concert is around 100 decibels and so 300 sounds like a lot of decibels in comparison.
This reminds me of that scan of Wally saving people from a nuke where it says on panel that he was going under lightspeed but people still insist that it is like a thousand times faster than light feat because of their fancalcs.
WRITERS ARE NOT SCIENTISTS PEOPLE. SUPERHERO FEATS ARE NOT ALWAYS SCIENTIFICALLY PLAUSIBLE AND YOU CANNOT EXPLAIN THEM WITH CALCULATIONS BASED ON REAL WORLD LOGIC.
The battlefield is a small isolated universe. Battlefield is one star system. In the centre is one super-massive star which is millions of times larger than our sun, and shines light in the entire universe. To ensure the safety of the participants, the organizers have created a barrier around the star so that no one accidentally goes near it and gets crushed by the immense pressure. The energies emitted by star can't be manipulaed due to that barrier.
The sun does not affect anyone (power or depower) except providing heat and light for the battle.
The entire universe is full of atmosphere, which is thin, but still present even in space.
The planets surrounding the star are battlefield. Each of them is exactly the same as each other. There are 8 such planets, each is at fairly large distance from the sun, and each of them is 100 light years away from each other.
Each planet closely resembles the earth, except the following differences:
During prep time, leaving battlefield , teleporting anything into battlefield etc are not allowed. During battle, leaving battlefield universe is not allowed. However, teleport is allowed to different locations on battlefield.
For prep that takes place out of the battlefield, characters see the battlefield, then they are sent to wherever they have prep, and then they are teleported back to battlefield as soon as their prep time is over. Also, no external help during prep.
You got 10 points, each perk can be chosen any number of times. Spend wisely.
Manga freak - Gain 1 extra perk point and allow only manga feats (For DB only)
Freeza army (RoF) 200 soldiers not including Sorbet,tagoma,shisami - DB only
Quick healing - Your healing factor is like movie versions of Deadpool or Wolverine
Emotional manipulation resistance (team)
Matter manipulation resistance (team)
Bloodlusted (one character)
Dragon balls of Kami (for DB characters only, 1 wish)
Adamantium skeleton - Quite useful, isn't it?
TP immunity (Team)
Soul manipulation immunity (team)
Jean Grey (No Phoenix)
Ultimate Thor (God)
Rachel Grey (Phoenix Echo)
Double Extra character points x 4TP immunity 5
One hour of prep x 2
In Dragon-ball super anime, due to non-clear representation of power levels and some misunderstood statements, some people like to believe in "2-base theory" which is quite popular around many internet forums.
Here I will try my best to prove that this is nothing more than a misconception, and note that since , I won't use super manga for anything except providing some supplementary material and additional info for the anime which is treated as primary source material for the purpose of this thread.
The "two base theory" or "god base theory" as many call it, originates from RoF movie where it was hinted that goku's base form probably rivals Super Saiyan god. However no explicit claim was made about that. Now, in DB Super, which essentially rewrote the movies, Goku said something like "I am the super saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan god" when he turns SSB. Hence many people assume that he had the power of SSG in base already. The fact that Akira Toriyama once claimed that Goku absorbed the power of SSG further supports this assumption.
However, when in U6 tournament, everyone is able to give base goku a hard time, people can't handle U6 characters being SSG level. So, there is now a theory that Goku can only use "SSG level power" in base when he uses his white aura.
According to this theory, sometimes, Goku uses a base which is on or above SSG lvl and sometimes he uses a base which is only slightly stronger than his BoG arc self.
To sum up:
Goku (Godly base) = SSG >>>>>> Super vegetto >>>>>>>> Fat buu >>>>> Namek Freeza 100% >= Goku (Ungodly base) > BoG Goku (base)
However, the major drawback in this theory is that it believes in this chain:
SSB > Godly base >>>> SS3 >> SS2 >> SS1 >> Base
Everytime he has been in base, his base has been sensed. Krillin even remarked that his base is on an whole different lvl than his former self, in ROF. If he had god ki, krillin won't be able to sense him.
So far, there is not a single explicit statement which puts goku's base on super saiyan god's level. Infact, there is plenty of evidence for the contrary.
If his base was anywhere near SSG level, then this statement entirely loses weight.
The narrator statement makes it pretty clear that Super Saiyan god is a huge deal and only SSB can surpass it.
It also implies this:
SSB > SSG > Powered up freeza > Base goku
So SSG and base are not really in the same realm.
Significance: Basically a heavy implication that freeza believed goku can go super saiyan and he would still not need to show fruits of his training.
This shows that Goku is far below 1/50th of SSG,
Significance: Freeza's golden form is tiers above his "final form" which means that the "base" form of goku is nowhere near SSB and hence nowhere near SSG either.
Frost is nowhere near SSG level as evident by his fight against piccolo.
So, base goku isn't anywhere near SSG level either since he was weaker than FF frost.
Now, many people would throw in as an "evidence of 2 base theory" but it is not.
Goku fights against hit in base, hit isn't serious and tells goku to transform. Goku counters hit's time skip and then hit gets serious.
Infact, in this fight, goku shows no "aura" or anything like that.
Here, we get to see two fights:
1. (copy) Vegeta in base absolutely demolishes SS3 gotenks and goku matches him
2. Beerus in monaka costume fights Goku on an even level.
Thses two things prove nothing that Goku is anywhere near SSG level. The only thing it proves is that Goku's base is well above SS3 gotenks and around the level of (suppressed) Beerus in beginning of BoG.
The fact that future trunks was able to even make SS2 goku exert slightest of effort proves base goku would be nowhere near SSG.
Then we see Zamasu giving SS2 goku issues and he is nowhere near SSG either.
Then again, we see that base black is SS2 to SS3 goku level. Black turns out to be stronger than base goku (due to Zamasu) but nowhere near SSG level despite having goku's body (that too a stronger one than the current goku).
All of these prove that SSG is far above base.
The only time goku has fought as of yet is when he fights gohan. While it seems goku is suppressed, he is still exerting effort. If he was anywhere near SSG in base level, he could've finger-flicked SS gohan with ease while heavily suppressed.
Tagoma treated Piccolo way worse than perfect cell could've treated cell games goku. Even if we believe piccolo made no progress sinec buu arc, he still should be close to cell games goku level. So, Tagoma is, at minimum, close to perfect cell's power.
Gohan treated him the same way his kid self treated full power perfect cell. So, he is actualy close to cell games gohan. Hell, I would massively lowball and say he is only half of kid gohan. First form freeza manhandled him. So, by scaling, final form freeza must be well above buu. That means so is base goku.
There is not much to confirm, except heavily weakened Frost being way more powerful than piccolo while holding back
Significance: Frost implies holding back against piccolo.
And this is piccolo after training with gohan for atleast 8 months since RoF.
While this does not prove goku/vegeta's base is above buu, it does prove that they are easily on or above perfect cell level at minimum.
What needs to be said? Stomping SS3 gotenks and matching heavily suppressed beerus, both of whom are well above buu, are good enough feats.
Several indications here.
It is a clear SS3 gotenks+ tier feat.
SS2 goku is 100x base goku. So, since SS2 goku is much, much stronger than anything seen in Z, it is obvious that base goku must have to be around if not above buu in base.
Not puts him above buu, but does put him around cell-games self in base, at minimum.
1. Both have the same kind of ki.
Since it is proven that god ki can't be sensed, and regular ki can be, and the only saiyan forms to have god ki are SSG and SSB, both base and "godly" base have the same ki which is never stated to be special.
2. Same appearance
3. It is pure speculation:
Not once in the show is it implied that saiyans have 2 levels of base power. Base means base. It is meant to be a kids show, not be confusing with speculations. If the authors and creators have anything like that in their mind, they would've attempted to tell us.
4. The difference is never noted:
Krillin is one character who always notes power level differences. He noted it when goku came back from whis training to reach a new level (probably above buu)
However, he never notes an extremely notable thing that would be "hey, goku got even weaker than before, millions of times weaker by training in ROSAT for 3 years. He is thousands of times weaker even in Super Saiyan" How much sense does it make?
5. The only few "low showings" can be explained and none of the "high showings" require them to be SSG level or anywhere near it"
So far, from RoF to universal survival arc, everything indicates that the base saiyans (goku and vegeta) have power level nowhere near Super Saiyan god, and above majin buu / fat buu, and very likely noticeably above SS3 gotenks. This means their power can be somewhere between Buuhan and Vegetto. This is supported by feats and showings.
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