Feats/Statements/Author statements/Guidebooks: What should be applicable in debates?

In the recent time, I have seen this topic come out a lot on battle forums - the debate between feats and statements, so I thought maybe I should make a thread regarding that.

Before going into this, let's take a look at types of statements based on source:

  • Authors/Creators statements: The person who has written the comic/manga or written and directed the movie which happens to be the source of feat. Usually authors don't (or very rarely) go out of the way to explain a feat without being asked.
  • Authors/Creators opinion: Authors who have written a certain character or have contributed in it. They might be able to provide personal opinion to questions like "Can Thor bust a planet" or "Is Hulk stronger than Superman" etc.
    This category also includes any opinions, answers and analysis from people who have significant but secondary role such as editors, producers etc.
  • Narrator statements: Very often narration describes things like it is telling about what someone is capable of, such as "power enough to pulverize a planet", "Capable of moving in less than a nanosecond". Narrator statements can be of two types:
    • Describing the power of an on-panel event like "he unleashed a blow capable of cracking a moon"
    • Describing what a character is capable of like "if he felt like, he could crack a moon"
  • Guidebook statements: Written in a guidebook or a guidebook-style comic
  • Character statements: There are four types of character statements.
    • Reliable character: Characters who are reputed in-universe for being smart, knowledgeable, are well-written, do not exaggerate and have the means of knowing what they are talking about. For example, characters like Thanos and several green lanterns would fit. Omnipotent characters also fit in here - depending on the level of feat/statement and the level of omnipotence.
    • Semi-reliable character: Characters who are reputed like the above except they may lack means to know and verify what they are talking about. Or characters who know what they are talking about and have means to verify it, but do not possess extreme intelligence and knowledge. Characters like Thor and Superman - for example, would fit nicely here. Or characters who have no reason to be wrong, but no proof that they are correct are also included here.
    • Unreliable character: Characters who have no way of verifying the level of feats they are narrating, or are known to exaggerate things like spider-man, or characters who are known to lie and mislead - like Mephisto, Loki etc. This also includes narcissists and dim-witted characters
    • Unknown reliability: Characters who are relatively unknown when it comes to in-universe respect, smarts and truthfulness.

It is worth noting that some characters might be reliable for some feats and unreliable for some other feats. For example, Superman would be a reliable or semi-reliable character to know if Jay Garrick is running at full speed or not, but unreliable if it comes to Wally.

One important point to be noted is that we cannot generalize everything, and it varies from case to case like higherpower said below, but this is a loose attempt to generalize and categorize the types of feats, and the reliability of a character also varies from case to case.

So here is how we should proceed, in order of preference from highest to lowest:

1. On-Panel feats:

They matter the most. Panels cannot be biased or unreliable. They show what's happening. We see a character go inside sun and fight inside the sun unharmed shows they can survive in the sun. No amount of statements or implications supersede them. Often, the on-panel feats are supplemented by narration which explains the picture in words.

However, there might be underlying context - such as a character being weakened, amped, or some other forces at play. For example, MCU Thor and Iron Man destroying the floating landmass in Avengers: Age of Ultron had a bit of context. Before using these feats in battle, you should be aware of the context and how it affects the feat.

What makes on-panel feats easy to use is the fact that they are quantifiable. We can see the quality of feat performed on the panels drawn.

2. On Panel narrated feat:

There are some things pictures cannot describe alone - for example catching a projectile in microseconds or saving a million people in half a second. Therefore, they are described almost by narration alone. However, they are aided by visual evidence as narration quantifies the feat.

These hold about as much value as on-panel feats, perhaps a bit less.

3. Off-panel narrated feat:

Same as above, except feat happened off-panel. This may include things like Thor shattering planets in his fight against gorr. Here, the feat doesn't happen on-panel but the narration confirms that it actually happened.

This should be regarded as legit feat, but it is below on-panel feats in terms of preference

4. On panel reliable character-narrated feat:

A feat which takes place on panel, but is unclear, might be narrated by reliable characters.

5. Narrator statement, on-panel semi-reliable character narrated feat:

Narrator statements describe powers unleashed by characters in terms of potential feats like "the blow was strong enough to destroy a mountain" or "released enough energy to wipe all life on the planet" but the feats do not actually happen. These feats can be questioned

Narrator statements are basically the word of god on panel

On-panel feats, even when narrated by semi-reliable characters are given preference over off-panel feats narrated by guidebook statements.

6. Off-Panel guidebook statement feat:

Guidebook statements may confirm or debunk that a feat happened, like narrator's statement (see 3).

They are less usable than on-panel narration since the authors may be in a different mindset when they wrote the guidebook, or the authors working on guidebook may be different from those who wrote the comic in question.

7. Off-panel reliable character narrated feat, on-panel semi-reliable character narrated feat:

A character holds less value than narrator and guidebooks, but if the character is reliable enough, his narration holds almost as much value - given the feat actually happened

Or a feat which is on-panel but unclear and is narrated by semi-reliable character is likely to be true. For example, flash doing something fast and stating he did that something in a picosecond, or surfer doing something similar come under this category.

8. Author statements, reliable character statements, Off-panel semi-reliable character narrated feat:

Authors statements are word of god outside the printed pages. Now, this holds much greater preference if the entire verse is written by just one author - like Toriyama writing dragon-ball. However, mostly characters are written by a bunch of authors. Therefore no author usually has rights or total control over him.

Authors statements are basically just personal opinions but they hold as much value as reliable character statements because they do imply that the author is going to write a character with some power level in mind. So if a writer says Superman is a planet-buster, he would write superman accordingly. And if a writer says superman is mountain buster, he would write him accordingly.

Reliable character statements are pretty good analysis of what an author wants to show. They are mostly valid and rarely misleading.

An off-panel feat narrated by a semi-reliable character also holds the same value, since a semi-reliable character is mostly correct, but sometimes wrong.

9. Guidebook statements:

A statement regarding capability of a character given in any guidebook which is not backed up by any on-panel or off-panel feats of any kind. While character or narrator statements may back it up, on its own, guidebook statements hold less value than a statement from a reliable character on-panel.

However, official guidebooks provide details which have been missed by the panels of the comics, and these details must be taken into consideration depending upon how official the guidebooks are.

10. Semi-reliable character statements:

Semi-reliable character statements include statements like "I was about to hit black adam with enough force to split the moon in half", or "I punched with enough power to shatter small planets" by superman, or "Now I have enough energy to destroy the entire solar system" by super perfect cell. They are backed by no feats, no reliable character statements and the statements are not hyped up by other, more reliable characters.

There is no way to know if they are true or false, but it is more likely to believe they are true. However, they cannot be used as an evidence on their own, but they can be used to supplement other feats.

11. Off-panel feat narrated by unknown character:

An off-panel feat narrated by a character who may or may not be reliable holds less value than characters likely to be semi-reliable. The lack of reliability of a character hurts the feat, and stops us from using it as an evidence on its own. However, it can be used to back-up feats (from 1-7) to prove they are not outliers but even as a back-up, it might be questioned.

12. Unknown character statements:

A character with unknown reliability narrating the capabilities of another character is put in this category. For example, a Shi'ar imperial guard Manta saying that Gladiator can bench press planets is a good example. She has unknown reliability as a character, and this is a character statement not a narration of an off-panel feat.

It is certainly not usable as an evidence or even as a direct back-up. However it can supplement a back-up given by no 8-11 to a feat/evidence given by 1-7

13. In-universe hype:

A character's power level might be determined by in-universe hype. For example if a character fights alongwith Thor and Silver Surfer, then he is likely to be in the same league as them. Or if a character is feared by mid-tiers then he is likely to be a high tier.

On the other hand, if a character fights alongside Daredevil and Punisher, he is more likely to be street level. Or if he fears bullets and is careful against guns - or against falling rubble, he is more likely to be street leveler.

Again, this is not usable as any sort of evidence or even as direct back-up to the feats (like the above section), but can be used to supplement things used as back-ups for the feats.

14. Unreliable character statements or off-panel narrated feat:

When a character is unreliable regarding a certain feat, then it should be disregarded whether or not it is a narration of an off-panel event or a character capability statement.

These are completely inapplicable and unusable.

Examples would include spider-man saying that Sentry fought galactus to a stand-still, or saying that Black Bolt and Sentry are the two most powerful being in the galaxy.

To summarize, when it comes to being used in a battle, the feats, statements are used in the above order of preference. The higher order of preference show that they are more likely to be used as an evidence.

  • 1,2 are unquestionable evidence
  • 3,4,5 are mostly completely valid evidence
  • 6,7 are questionable evidence but still evidence. A sufficiently large number of these evidences would make them strong evidence.
  • 8,9,10 are not usable as an evidence on their own. However, a large collection of them may be used as a weak evidence. For a character with very small number of appearances, they may be used as some sort of evidence.
    The most important role of these types of feats is that they back-up the feats performed in 1-7 sections
  • 11,12,,13 are not usable as feats or even to back-up feats performed in sections 1-7. However, if a character only has a small number of feats (sections 1-7), but a decent back-up feats (sections 8-10), then they can supplement the back-up feats to show that different authors think that highly/lowly of a character.
    A large number of these type of feats may be used to back-up on-panel feats.
  • Section 14 feats is completely useless

Now, again, remember that not everything can be generalized and categorized, but this is done here to give an idea on how it should be. Every case may be different and out of the bounds for any of the category, or even applicable to multiple sections.

And exceptions exist:

  • Depending on art and animation/CGI/cinematography, even on-panel feats can be hard to quantify and unreliable
  • Sometimes it is hard to tell if it is an asteroid, moon, planet or large planet
  • Context

On the other hand, statements can be hyperboles and feats can be misleading to serve the plot. To determine a character's powers, you cannot ignore anything out of them except unreliable character statements. Foe example, like Jashro44 said below, If you put 100% priority in just feats, or 100% priority in just author statements your never going to get the right answer.

Well, these are my thoughts on the topic, and any suggestions are welcome. I hope this helps

93 Comments

Ranking the biggest life saves in CBM's

This blog is dedicated to the biggest life saving instances performed by live-action superheroes in films. I'm listing the top 15 saves and it will be followed by some honorable mentions.

How the ranking works:

It is completely independent of the power level or "tier" of hero or villain. It depends on threat level and the number of superheroes making the save

The saves made by single hero are ranked highest, followed by minor help, followed by major help/combined effort followed by team-ups.

The threat level is determined by the damage to life, civilization and environment. Planet busting is a bigger threat than ending all life on the planet, but smaller than all life on 2 planets. Ending all life is a bigger threat than ending only all human life

Direct threats are ranked higher than potential threats. So, sokovia dropping is a higher threat than possibility of Ultron launching nukes.

If the possibility of a threat being stopped by humans/earth is higher, then it is ranked lower.

The list:

It includes MCU, Fox cinematic universe, and the DCEU

15. Iron Man saves New York from nuke and Chitauri at the same time: The Avengers

The damage done by chitauri was steadily increasing. Even The Hulk was starting to get overwhelmed. Even if the portal was closed down, the chitauri could have overwhelmed the tired avengers. To make matters worse, SHIELD officials launched a nuke.

Iron Man saves everyone by guiding the nuke through the wormhole, nearly dying in the process but saving millions.

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14. Superman kills Doomsday with Batman and Diana's help: Batman vs Superman

Doomsday, powered up by a city's worth of power grid, and getting stronger after every blast, even after getting hit by a nuke, completely leveled an island via his energy emissions. He was destroying buildings and releasing enough power to easily wipe out civilization if let loose. With his super-speed and ability to leap very high, he could have ended most sentinent life on earth within months. There were no means to stop him or to save lives. He could have continued rampaging for eternity.

However, Superman sacrificed himself as he impaled him with the kryptonite spear, as he was restrained for a moment thanks to Diana and Bruce.

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13. Captain America stops the HYDRA from using tesseract-powered weapons: Captain America - The First Avenger

The extremely dangerous power of tesseract in hands of HYDRA during world war 2 could have been a menace to the earth. It was stated that if the best potential weapons were built, they could have ended all life on earth.

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12. Nightcrawler (with X-men helping) stops Apocalypse from taking over Xavier: X-Men: Apocalypse

The powerful and frightening mutant En Sabah Nur (Apocalypse) tries to take over Xavier's body, transferring his consciousness into him. That would give him the power to mind control everyone on earth at the same time. Nightcrawler saved Xavier and every mind on earth by teleporting him out.

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11. Thor saves Asgard from Surtur: Thor: Ragnarok

Thor knows Ragnarok is coming, so he saves the realm of Asgard from the eternal fire-demon Surtur by defeating him in a battle

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10. Vision/ JARVIS saves life on earth by stopping Ultron's access to Internet/Nuclear launch codes: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Ultron has access to internet. He tries to overtake the nuclear access controls and launch nuclear weapons on earth at everyone and everywhere.

However, JARVIS stops this by changing access codes before Ultron can overtake them, constantly. Eventually, vision cleans him out of internet

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9. Thor (with Iron Man's help) destroys falling sokovia to prevent an extinction level event: Avengers: Age of Ultron

Iron Man has a plan to stop the falling mountain of a landmass which requires Thor. But Thor may not escape alive, and the impact might still be devastating.

However, Tony's calculations prove right and both him and Thor survive the event, while destroying the city.

Okay, this is fan-made poster but its cool
Okay, this is fan-made poster but its cool

8. Superman and Cyborg seperate the motherboxes: Justice League

The motherboxes were going to terraform the earth over the time duration of hours. Likely all life on earth would have been gone. Superman and Cyborg managed to seperate the motherboxes and stop the damage to the earth's life

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7. Superman destroys the world engine: Man of Steel

The world engine was increasing the gravity of earth several times over and changed the composition of the atmosphere. It would have instantly killed any animal bigger than insects by crushing under gravity alone. Any survivor, if any, would be bugs and newly-grown kryptonians.

Superman with all his willpower, ignoring the pain, destroys the world engine.

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6. Star-Lord saves all life on Xandar by dancing (with help from Rocket Raccoon): Guardians of the Galaxy

Ronan the Accuser, the rogue kree, has the power gem which can wipe out the entire surface of the planet Xandar if touched to the surface. Quick witted Peter formulates a plan to distract Ronan and take the gem away from him.

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5. Silver Surfer saves earth from being consumed by Galactus (influenced by fantastic four): Fantastic Four: Rise of Silver Surfer

The eater of the worlds galactus is a cloud-like being who consumes entire planets. His servant Silver Surfer betrays him to save the earth.

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4. Dr Strange bargains: Dr Strange

Dormammu consumes planets and cannot be defeated, so Strange has a trick up his sleeve to save earth from being devoured

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3. Guardians of the Galaxy blow up Ego to stop his expansion: Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2

Ego the living planet is a celestial. With his son - Star-lord as a battery, he plans to undergo expansion, taking over other planets as extension of himself, starting with earth.

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2. Loki unleashes Surtur to kill Hela and blow-up Asgard (while Thor and Valkyrie hold her off): Thor: Ragnarok

Hela was steadily getting powerful in Asgard. So Thor made the toughest decision of his life, because if Hela had access to Bifrost sword, she would have access to all other realms and other places in the cosmos. She could conquer entire realms and destroy entire civilizations on who knows how many planets.

Oh, and if it isn't clear enough, they also saved asgardian and sakaarian survivors from her

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1. Thor, Eric Selvig and Jane Foster stop Malekith: Thor: The Dark World

With the Aether, i.e. reality gem, Malekith could have covered the entire nine realms and the entire universe into a never-ending darkness.

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Honorable mentions:

Superman kills Zod, a potential unstoppable civilization ender

Hulk kills Abomination, a potential civilization ender

Thor kills the Destroyer, an extremely dangerous Robot, saving thousands or more lives

14 Comments

Characters I can represent in a CaV

Here is a list of characters I can represent in a CaV. The list will be updated accordingly.

Mid tier:

DCEU Superman

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MCU Thor

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MCU Hulk

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High tier:

Nova Richard rider (both centurion levels and Nova prime levels)

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Gladiator

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Thor

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Betaraybill

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Teambuster/trans tier and higher:

Lord-Marvell

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Freeza

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Thanos

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Superboy prime

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Tyrant

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4 Comments

Marvel Cinematic Universe: Most powerful characters (Top 10)

This blog is dedicated to the most powerful beings in the marvel cinematic universe shown so far. Remember that while I will try to keep it unbiased and fair, it is still a matter of personal opinion.

Since I just watched every MCU movie ever, I think it is fair to do this now.

I will update it whenever needed.

Also, for this list, the characters' standard powers and gear is considered. So, if Iron Man can hack nuclear launch and control nukes, it does not make him a city buster.

10. Ultron

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Accidentally created by Tony stark while analyzing Loki's scepter, with the purpose to save the world, the powerful AI grew on its own and took over the internet. He later creates a powerful vibrainum body for himself.

He is strong enough to overpower Thor and powerful enough to harm him. He can create drones for him and his consciousness can exist as any one of them or a part of whole.

9. Kurse

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The last of the Kursed, he is also the most powerful of them. Being a loyal servant to the leader and the most dangerous of the Dark Elves - Malekith, Kurse proves himself to be strong enough to easily overpower Thor and nearly beat him to death. He comes equipped with a black-hole grenade which creates a miniature singularity.

In terms of physical might, he is unmatched except for a few metaphysical entities.

8. Malekith

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The leader of the dark elves, also the strongest and most dangerous. He is millions of years old, extremely cunning and deceptive. He commands the aether, the reality gem. He absorbs the Aether into himself and becomes so powerful that even Thor with all his might can only barely hold him off for 8 minutes.

At the point of convergence, he can destroy the nine realms using aether.

7. Thor Odinson

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Thor, the god of thunder, can command thunder and lightning, storms, rain and tornados. In physical might, he can exchange blows with the Hulk, and his lightning can shatter miles of ice, and easily tear through the bifrost bridge like it was made of metal. After awakening his power while on sakaar, and back on asgard, he is one of the most powerful beings in marvel cinematic universe.

6. Dr Strange

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The sorcerer supreme, his magic makes Loki look like a toddler. He can create many things, open portals to any place or other dimensions, and can leave his body to create his astral form.

He is in the possession of several artifacts most prominently including the Eye of Agomotto, i.e. the time gem. With this, he can exert complete control over time itself, reversing time, stopping time and even affecting beings beyond time.

5. Hela

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The goddess of death, she can destroy Mjolnir like made of glass. Her power is stated to be limitless in asgard. She can significantly hurt Surtur the fire demon. She is the elder sister of Thor

4. Surtur

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The fire demon surtur whose purpose is to bring Ragnarok, which is complete destruction of Asgard.

He succeeds in doing so and blows asgard to bits using his twilight sword.

3. Ronan the accuser (with power gem)

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The Kree accuser is one of the most powerful beings in the universe, capable of wiping a planet's surface easily.

2. Ego

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A celestial, an ancient being, the father of Star-Lord. Ego the living planet is a sentinent being the size of moon who can consume other planets when fueled by a power source.

1. Dormammu

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The most powerful being in existence. He cannot be defeated, only bargained with. He has devoured entire worlds into his dark dimension.

He is beyond time and controls a sentinent dimension

53 Comments

Celebrating over two years on COMICVINE as APEX_PRETADOR

P.S. it is "preTAdor" not "preDAtor"

I joined about two years, 18 days ago. Past few weeks, I was too busy to do this blog so I'm doing it now.

Users I interacted with:

  • @krleavenger, @jardinain2, @emperorthanos, @brucerogers are all amazing users who I believe I can consider as good friends on this forum. I ask them anything I want to know, they can rely on me and I can rely on them, and support each other in threads.
  • @asgardianbrony and @citizensurfer are my friends and rivals, who would, no matter how much effort it takes, will never back down from debating a character. Sometimes, we support each other, sometimes we are hell-bend at destroying each other.
  • @mr-luxcipher, @lvenger, @heirtothekingdom, @thor_parker82, Laylah all nice and encyclopedias for many characters.
  • @cull_obsidian One word- Thanos
  • @chimeroid is an insanely skilled debater
  • @rbt @buildhare @superhero24 keeping live action debating safe and strong.
  • Mysticmedivh, lord_parallax etc always making sure that this place doesn't get too boring.
  • @thekinfing I don't know what to say but I didn't want to leave him either.
  • @shirso @shirso Faced him in two CaV's, the first one being my most enjoyable debate so far on comicvine.

My respect threads:

Piccolo respect thread

Respect the #1 assassin - tao pai pai

Emperor Freeza respect

All dragon-ball related, but I am going to make a few MCU RT's in future.

Also, these are old and need to be updated. I will update Freeza's RT soon, followed by Piccolo and maybe I'd update Tao someday.

Other contributions:

Power levels and power tiers threads

Dragon-Ball universe. Please note that it is personal opinion and not necessarily backed by facts, although I've tried my best so that they do.

Also, old and need updating.

PowerLevels thread

PowerTiers Thread

Wiki pages edited:

  • Thanos (Marvel)
  • Hit (Dragon-Ball)
  • Adam Warlock (Marvel)
  • Gladiator (Marvel)
  • Nova Prime (Marvel)
  • Dragon-Ball Universe (concept)

Finished CaV's

Namek Freeza (Me) vs New 52 Superman (The_man_with_questions)

The hero vs the villain, the good guy vs the bad guy. The alien who blows up planets vs the alien who saves planets. Space-powerhouses. Super-strong, super-fast, super tough, classic manga/anime vs comics.

Thanos (me) vs Mangog (shirso)

The mad titan vs the asgardian killing machine, two super-brutes who can manhandle anything below skyfather level, just by using physical strength alone, and even Odin is pushed to his limits

Thanos/Vulcan (Me) vs Midora/Doflamingo/Zoro (shirso)

The repeat, although inverse of classic manga/anime vs comic of my first CaV, the battle of unorthodox abilities.

Thanos/Vulcan (me) vs Cyborg/Black Alice (Chimeroid)

Classic Marvel vs DC, power vs magic and technology

There are a bunch of unfinished CaV's too.

Blogs:

Debunks

Personal Opinions

2016 Year end awards (polls) for comic-book movies released in 2016

Tourney's hosted

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/apex_pretador/blog/dragon-ball-vs-marveldc-tourney-sign-ups-2-spots-r/130448/

The matches:

.

Most of them died, but the first two were completed, and I'd appreciate if you vote on them.

My current interests:

In order of preferrence / how likely I am to represent them in a debate

  • Thanos
  • MCU
  • Dragon-Ball Universe
  • Gladiator (Kallark)
  • FOX cinematic universe
  • Nova Prime (Richard Rider)
  • Nolan-verse
  • Silver Surfer
  • Adam Warlock
  • DC Extended Universe
  • Quasar
  • Superman/Thor/Hulk/Martian Manhunter etc

In general, I am a high-tier debater who prefers marvel-cosmics, and to a lesser extent, Dragon-Ball and MCU characters mostly.

My other interests, some info about me:

I am an Engineering student. I like:

WWE

I hate Roman Reigns, like Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Chris Jericho, Seth Rollins and Undertaker

Solving puzzles and tricky aptitude questions

I can solve hard-difficulty sudoku in 15-20 minutes and evil-difficulty sudoku in a few hours.

I don't know how to solve a rubik's cube

Strategy games

I can spend hours on it, if the game is good enough

.

.

Milestones passed here:

Over 9000 posts:

My first CaV win

.

.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for reading.

6 Comments

DCEU Superman, 300 dB and BvS

The argument:

Superman tanked two 300 dB canons with mild discomfort, and 300 dB is like over a dozen times more powerful than a TSar bomb.

Now, the first rule on comicvine,

Feats >> Statements

Feats:

The area during the sonic blasters attack

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The area after the sonic blasters

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Now, you can clearly see the entire area is COMPLETELY INTACT after the sonic blasters attack. Now generally, you can call it inconsistency, but considering the following things:

  1. Right in the middle where superman is standing, the ground is experiencing the EXACT SAME amount of power superman is experiencing, and is completely fine. Infact two 300dB sonic cannons meeting each other in the middle would have created a country-sized explosion, killing batman with it and millions others.
  2. Maybe, just maybe someone can say that "Hey, but in fiction these things happen" which is true but Zack Snyder is a massive fan of showing destruction at every possible point, every chance he gets in these movies.
    1. Superman vs Zod's shockwaves - Check with every punch collision
    2. Superman punches Nam-Ek, city-block sized fire - Check
    3. Nam-Ek throws train engine , city block sized fire again - Check
    4. Superman -Zod clash levels a city - Check
    5. The world engine showing destruction - Check
    6. The massive fireball created by the nuke - Check (this is very, very rare in comics)
    7. Doomsday's eyebeams destroy buildings on contact - Check
    8. Wonder Woman's bracelet bump causes massive shockwave and damages the ground - Check again
    9. Doomsday's energy release levels buildings, city blocks and an entire island - Check
    10. When Superman attacks doomsday, oil barrels blow up and cause a massive fire multi-city block sized - Check
    11. When Superman destroys only two small machine guns, a huge fire erupts - Check
    12. The bomb in the building - Check
    13. Doomsday throwing superman into a building - Check
    14. Army throws missiles at doomsday - Check
    15. Probably many more I am missing.

TLDR: Zack snyder shows destruction as much as possible at the first chance he gets. If he intended the sonic cannons to be thousands of times more powerful than a nuke, he will definitely have shown it.

Moving on

The feats of the manhole cover are:

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and tanking the sonic canons with no problem.

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So, the feats of the sonic canon are being unable to do anything to manhole cover which superman can tear like tissue paper.

Hell, when he throws it at them, not only they are unable to even slow the manhole covers, but if it was even 0.01% of 300 dB (260 dB) it would have disintegrated the manhole cover with ease. Even machinegun fire could have disintegrated the manhole cover easily, nevermind 300 dB which is compared to meteor impacts which create massive craters and cause destruction hundred of miles away.

Moving on further:

The machinegun fire is able to cause greater discomfort to superman or atleast as much as the sonic canon did, WITHOUT being focused on his super-sensitive ears which can hear from miles away.

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This is further supported by seeing superman's behaviour afterwards.

After being blasted by sonic canons, (2:03) superman gently touches Bruce while talking to him.

After being blasted by only two machineguns, (2:51) superman grabs bruce by collar, lifts him up and angrily throws him. Then he goes at super-speed and angrily bullrushes him through a building, then throws him on batsignal, destroying him and yells "If I wanted you dead, you would already be dead"

Now, moving on further

Let's discuss the video which is the root of all problems

  1. The emphasis is made on high frequency of the sound, which makes it a high pitched voice and makes it painful more painful to superman, and insensitive to most living beings, but the "300 dB volume" is a throwaway line just to show that the sound is very loud.
  2. It is stated to be "mildly distracting and annoying" for superman, that too because of his super-sensitive ears and high frequency of the sound. No effort is made to focus on the power of the sonic canons.
  3. The machine gun fire is compared to being bombarded by baseballs at 60 mph, which actually hurt and can cause damage, compared to the sound which is called mildly distracting and annoying. It is further supported by Superman's reaction after machinegun fire.
  4. Compare the "mind discomfort and annoyance" to the nuke, Superman after nuke detonation, (3:03) despite being shielded by doomsday's large body. Now inb4 the totally non canon fan theory that "it was radiation" which is pure baseless speculation completely not backed by anything.

Now, back on 300 dB, DC loves to throw the dceibels term around without being backed by facts.

Cyborg, basically a mid tier, who will get stomped by Iron man

His sonic cannon gives off 1 Million Decibels

See Again

And again

and again

Silver Banshee did like a Billion Decibel Scream which supergirl tanked and before that caused broken windows and deafness in a mile radius.

And even in live action, DC shows 20,000 decibels can't destroy a standard, random, average door.

To give you an Idea what 50,000 dB is like,

Supernova contains about 10^46 J energy. That's about 600 dB. Kiloton Nukes are compared to 220 dB Galaxy busting would be about 10 billion supernovas, that's about 700 dB

Universe is about 100 billion galaxies, so universe busting will require about 810 dB.

At 1000 dB, someone should be able to destroy about 10^24 universes, that is about 10000000 trillion universes.

Now, imagine 50,000 dB and million decibels and billion decibels 50,000 dB would probably atomize Living Tribunal and the presence and mr Mxyzptlk etc all at the same time.

These examples prove that DC knows nothing about the decibel scale and just throws numbers like nothing.

.

TLDR:

  1. Snyder always shows destruction whenever he gets the slightest chance. He "shows" power. There is not a single instance in DCEU where snyder showed anything on even small building level without showing colateral damage.
  2. The sound canon didn't do anything to even the manehole which clark tore through tissue paper. The video focused on its frequency being higher and therefore being "mildly distracting and annoying to superman"
  3. In the same video, which says the sonic emittors were "mildly distracting and annoying", machinegun fire is compared to baseballs at 60 MPH, which hurt. That proves machinegun fire is intended to be far more powerful by the producers. Can't argue with the word of god, right?
  4. Nuke creates a massive fireball and nearly kills him. The sound canons annoy him less than the machineguns, that too because he has super-sensitive ears.
  5. DC has a history of using "decibels" without even knowing what decibels mean. They show millions of decibels (which logically would destroy the omniverse), billions of decibels, seeral thousand decibels (millions of times universe buster) being unable to destroy walls and doors.
  6. A throwaway line in a video not in movie can't be used to justify the feats which are strongly against it. That's even if we ignore the fact that 300 dB will require more power than the entire earth can create in hundred years.

Notable Quotes:

@amendment50 said:

I wouldn't be writing the script of my film based on battles forum feats but instead based on what looks good. I would have Superman tank a powerful sonic blast, and then later when asked how powerful the sonic blast was say "300 decibels" because I know that a rock concert is around 100 decibels and so 300 sounds like a lot of decibels in comparison.

@amendment50 said:

This reminds me of that scan of Wally saving people from a nuke where it says on panel that he was going under lightspeed but people still insist that it is like a thousand times faster than light feat because of their fancalcs.

WRITERS ARE NOT SCIENTISTS PEOPLE. SUPERHERO FEATS ARE NOT ALWAYS SCIENTIFICALLY PLAUSIBLE AND YOU CANNOT EXPLAIN THEM WITH CALCULATIONS BASED ON REAL WORLD LOGIC.

245 Comments

Dragon Ball vs Marvel/DC Tourney sign ups (2 spots remaining)

No Caption Provided

Here is the chance to debate Marvel/DC characters vs DB characters:

.

Tourney rules:

  • I'm taking 16 debaters, 8 for comics and 8 for DBZ
  • You can choose either DB or comic. However, since the spots are limited, you need to be quick to choose
  • You can choose your character from the list, and if you need someone else who is not on the list, tell me, I can add him/her
  • This tourney will consist of 1v1 matches putting those who chose DB characters against comic characters
  • If you feel a character (or perk) is incorrectly priced, tell me how and why. If needed, I will change it.
  • You have 10 points for picking perks , and 10 points for characters.
  • Once a character is chosen, no one else can choose the same character again.
  • Power scaling is only allowed to some extent. You can't just go around an entire argument without feats.
  • Reality warping, Time manipulation etc are limited
  • Oh, and standard gear

Limits:

  • No reality warping on mid level or high level. Low level RW is allowed
  • No erasing people from existence.
  • No ageing, deageing, taking to the end of time, time control, reversing time, etc. Time stopping is limited to 3 seconds at once, and only once in a minute.
  • No "getting outside of time stream" or "throwing people in different time" or something like that or slowing down time during battle.
  • All time manipulation and reality warping is restricted during prep.
  • No teleportation from outside the battlefield or to outside the battlefield. Basically, the battlefield is an isolated universe disconnected from all multiverses.
  • The powers of characters are not affected by battlefield universe being from different universe and work as they should.
  • Cloning is limited to 3 clones max per match
  • Summons are restricted to 50, and can not be stronger than thing/colossus/she hulk or faster than spiderman. If they are, then they are brought down to this level.

Battlefield:

The battlefield is a small isolated universe. Battlefield is one star system. In the centre is one super-massive star which is millions of times larger than our sun, and shines light in the entire universe. To ensure the safety of the participants, the organizers have created a barrier around the star so that no one accidentally goes near it and gets crushed by the immense pressure. The energies emitted by star can't be manipulaed due to that barrier.

The sun does not affect anyone (power or depower) except providing heat and light for the battle.

The entire universe is full of atmosphere, which is thin, but still present even in space.

The planets surrounding the star are battlefield. Each of them is exactly the same as each other. There are 8 such planets, each is at fairly large distance from the sun, and each of them is 100 light years away from each other.

Each planet closely resembles the earth, except the following differences:

  • It is indestructible
  • No human and animal life. Plants and insects are present.
  • No buildings/structures.

During prep time, leaving battlefield , teleporting anything into battlefield etc are not allowed. During battle, leaving battlefield universe is not allowed. However, teleport is allowed to different locations on battlefield.

For prep that takes place out of the battlefield, characters see the battlefield, then they are sent to wherever they have prep, and then they are teleported back to battlefield as soon as their prep time is over. Also, no external help during prep.

Battle rules:

  • Win by death, KO, Incap, give up
  • All characters are told that that the situation is dire, so they will try their best to win.
  • The characters start at full power
  • Fight takes place on land, 1 km away from sea. Both sides 57 m apart.

Perks:

You got 10 points, each perk can be chosen any number of times. Spend wisely.

Manga freak - Gain 1 extra perk point and allow only manga feats (For DB only)

  1. Invisibility
    Flight (max speed depends on your character)
    Strong will - (one character) can resist mind control and mind-shutting down with difficulty.
    Spider sense
    Captain america shield
    Access to a common house (once during the battle, for 30 seconds only)
    Super Stamina - Gives your character high stamina. Useful for characters who tire-out quickly (one character only)
  2. One character point - Allow you one more point for picking characters
    Adamantium knives (2)
    Mind link
    No energy sensing - Opponent can't sense your energy/aura
    Healing factor - Your character possesses low level healing factor
    500 Chitauri soldiers and 1 Leviathan (avengers movie) - Only for comic
    One kree sentry
    Wolverine senses
    Daredevil senses
    One hour prep
    Emotional manipulation resistance (one character)
  3. MCU Quicksilver speed - Your character gets speed equal to MCU Quicksilver
    CW Flash speed - Equal speed to CW flash (Season 1,2 feats only)
    ROSAT training - Can train in ROSAT for 3 hours (1.5 months). It can be only used for training.
    Basic info (wiki page)
    Potara earring (DB only)
    Reed richards body
    Magic immunity (one character)
    Tail and moon (DB only, character remains in control)
    3 senzu beans

    Freeza army (RoF) 200 soldiers not including Sorbet,tagoma,shisami - DB only
    MCU Mjolnir

  4. Thousand year experience - Get combat skill of Superman+Thor+Gladiator
    Two hours of prep in functioning steel plant

    Quick healing - Your healing factor is like movie versions of Deadpool or Wolverine
    Emotional manipulation resistance (team)
    Perfect teamwork
    Matter manipulation resistance (team)
    Bloodlusted (one character)

  5. Full knowledge

    Bloodlusted (team)
    Dragon balls of Kami (for DB characters only, 1 wish)
    Adamantium skeleton - Quite useful, isn't it?
    TP immunity (Team)
    Soul manipulation immunity (team)

  6. Draining immunity (team)
    Green lantern ring
    Lightspeed
    Thanos's shield (one character, one shield)
    Magic immunity (team)
    Parallax/Phoenix/Ion allowed whenever applicable (one character, one possession)
  7. Immune to outside effect (TP, Soul, matter , Emotion manip) - One character
    Motherbox
    Fatherbox
  8. A day in ROSAT and 2 senzu beans
  9. 5 hours prep in Batcave
    Immune to all Hax (one character) - No hax ability will work on one character who has this perk.
  10. Dragonballs and 2 hours of prep

Characters:

Marvel:

  1. Gamora
    Marvel Boy
    Groot
    Thing
    Meggan Puceanu
    Colossus
    She hulk
    The Isolationist
    Sandman
    Trauma
    Moonstone
    Radioactive Man
    Psylocke (Omega)
    Starlord
  2. Abomination
    Joe Fixit
    Quick Silver
    Ultimate Quicksilver
    Ultimate Invisible Woman
    Emma Frost
    Human torch
    Rogue (Ms Marvel Powered)
    Invisible Woman
    Nimrod Sentinel
    Red She Hulk
    Storm
    Madison Jeffries
    Sebastian Shaw
    Ultimate Iron Man
    Polaris
    Namor
    Stepford Cuckoos
    Kamala Khan
    Reed Richards
    Professor X
    Moondragon
    Current drax
  3. War machine

    Wonder Man
    Ultimate Hulk

    Hercules
    Rulk
    Jean Grey (No Phoenix)
    Mister Sinister
    The Mandarin
    Captain Britian
    Thor (Unworthy)
    Magik
    Wiccan
    Terrax
    Ultimate Thor (God)
    Atlas
    Rachel Grey (Phoenix Echo)
    Magneto
    Enchantress
    Nova(Sam)
    Mantis

  4. Iron Man (Any Suit, but God Killer)
    Vulcan
    She Thor
    Blue Marvel
    Super Skrull
    Ronan The Accuser
    Hyperion (any single version)
    Vision
    Stardust
    Ms Marvel (Binary Form)
    King Hyperion
    Nova Prime
    Ice Man
    Spectrum
    Savior Cable
    Selene
    Skaar
    Absorbing Man
  5. Juggernaut (No Trion feats)
    Gladiator
    Hyperion(composite)
    Beta Ray Bill
    Starbrand
    X Man
    Sentry (No Void)
    Black Bolt
    Hulk (all 616 unamped feats except green skaar)
    Thor (Worthy)
    Fire Lord
    Ultimate Reed Richards ( the maker)
    Captain Mar-vell
    Kurth
    Composite drax
    Morg
  6. Mangog
    Sersi
    Annihilus (Only CCR)
    Loki
    Apocalypse
    Hulk (allowed maestro and all 616 feats, unamped)
    Quasar
    Genis-vell (No universal stuff)
    Doctor Doom
    Graviton
    Silver Surfer
  7. Death Seed Sentry
    Adam Warlock (composite unamped, no magus)
    Anti-phonix Necrom
    Shaman X Man
    Magus (composite unamped)
  8. Ulton(up to phalanax)
    Onsalught
    Destroyer Armor
    Lord Mar-vell
  9. Gorr (all necro sword feats allowed)
    Composite annihilus
    Thanos 9

DC:

  1. Citizen Steel
    Giganta
    Static Shock
    Starfire
    Prometheus (Cry of Justice, All Gadgets shown)
    Mr. Terrific (10 T-Spheres)
    Black Manta
    Hawk Man
    Hawk Girl
    Vixen
    Weather Wizard
    Karate Kid
    Captain Boomerang
    Mera
  2. Killer Frost
    Doctor Alchemy
    Maxwell Lord
    Female Doctor Light
    Cyborg
    Heatwave
    Andrew Bennet
  3. Manchester Black
    The Top
    Solomon Grundy
    Captain Cold
    Donna troy
    Lex luthor in his battle suit
    Ocean Master
    Cheetah
    Power Girl
    Faora
    Supergirl
    Steel
    Guy Gardner (Green Ring)
    Dr. Arthur Light
    Parasite
    Geo Force
    Mon-El
    Abin-Sur
    Black Alice
    New 52 Aquaman
    Isis
    The Engineer
    Booster Gold
    Stargirl
    Jade
    Brainwave Jr
    Red Tornado
    Animal Man
    Blue Beetle Superboy
    Gorilla Grodd
    Aquaman (with Waterhand)
  4. Firestar
    New 52 Wonder Woman
    Mirror Master
    Shazam
    Bizzaro
    Superwoman
    Bruutal
    Val Zod
    Wraith
    Psycho Pirate
    Alex Nero
    Lobo
    Kilowog
    Arkillo
    Ultra Man
    New 52 Doomsday
    Major Force
    Mr Miracle(No ALE)
    General Zod
    Big Barda
    Swamp thing
    Alan Scott(Earth 2)
    Genocide
    (Hell-Bat armor) Batman
  5. New 52 Superman
    Blue Energy Superman
    Doomsday Superman
    Etrigan
    Pre 52 Captain Atom
    Hal Jordan (before his amp in new 52)
    Kyle Rayner
    John Stewart
    Black Adam
    Pre 52 Wonder Woman
    Pre 52 Doomsday
    Pre 52 Superman
    Sinestro
    Maxima
    Arion high Mage of Atlantis
    Orion
    Ma'alefa'ak
    Mongul II (with rings)
    Firestorm
    Black Hand
    Plasticman
    Abra Kadabra
    Eradicator
  6. Kingdom Come Superman
    Green lantern Sodam yat
    Atrocitus
    Zatanna
    H'el
    Ultra Humanite
    Pre 52 Martian Manhunter
    General Elling
  7. Tangent Superman
    Obsidian
    Hunter Prey Doomsday
    Cyborg Superman (with power rings)
    Pre 52 Darkseid
  8. Despero
    Alan Scott(Starheart)
    Larfleeze
    Brainiac
    New 52 Darkseid
  9. Superboy Prime

Dragon Ball:

  1. Tao pai pai
    Full red ribbon army (except general blue)
    General blue
    Tambourine
    Dende
    Bulma
    King piccolo
  2. Mr popo
    Master roshi
    Kami
    Saibaman
  3. Raditz
    Nappa
    Tien
    Krillin
    Dodoria
    Zarbon
    Guldo
    Yamcha
    Chiaotzu
    Babidi
    Old Kaioshin
  4. King cold
    The ginyu force (trio)
    Ginyu (no body change)
    Yakon
    Kibito
  5. Freeza (before revival)
    Cell jrs
    Android 16
    Android 17
    Android 18
    Android 19
    Dr gero
    Piccolo
    Bojack
    Superme kai
    Cooler
    Broly
    Tagoma
  6. SP Cell
    Dabura
    Uub
    Frost
    Basil
    Lavender
    Bergamo
  7. Zamasu (present)
    Gohan
    Gotenks
    Buu (all forms)
    Janemba
    Hirudegarn
    Shadow dragons (any of them)
    Baby vegeta (all forms)
    General rildo
  8. SS4 goku/vegeta
    Omega shenron
    Super 17
  9. DBS Goku
    DBS Vegeta
    Goku Black
    Golden freeza
    SS4 Gogeta
  10. Fused Zamasu (no soul filling universe)
    Hit
    SSB Vegetto
  11. Beerus
    Champa

Character versions:

  • Marvel characters are allowed 616 unamped feats, pre secret wars characters
  • DC characters allowed pre/new 52 feats unless stated otherwise.
  • Dragon ball characters are allowed Manga, Anime , BOG, RoF, DBS (manga/anime) and GT feats unless stated otherwise. For GT only characters, BoF, RoF, DBS feats are not applicable.

Participants:

Comics:

  1. Lord Parallax: CONFIRMED
    Kyle Rayner 5 pts
    Mirror Master 4 pts
    PERKS:
    Ion - 6 points (applicable for Kyle)
    Invisibility - 1 point (Kyle)
    Basic Info - 3 Points
  2. Sovereign91001: CONFIRMED
    Dr Doom - 6 pts
    Ronan - 4 pts
    Dragonballs and prep - 10 pts
  3. Lvenger: CONFIRMED
    Martian Manhunter (6 points)
    Superman (5 points)
    Both pre 52
    PERKS:
    Bloodlusted (5 pt)
    Extra character (2 pts)
    Magic Immunity (Superman)
  4. SpideyJust CONFIRMED
    Gog (11 pts)
    PERKS:
    Immune to outside effect (7 pts)
    Extra character (2 pts)
    Invisibility 1 pt
  5. RehBeh - n52 and pre 52 darkseid
  6. NWO - Gorr the godbutcher and trauma

Dragon Ball:

  1. EmperorThanos: CONFIRMED
    Beerus (11 points)
    PERKS
    Outside immunity (7 points)
    Extra character point (2 pts)
  2. DeathHero61: confirmed
    Janemba (7 pts) krillin 3 pts, PERKS : 1000 yr experience, no energy sensing and freeza fodder army
  3. Zoldyclogic: CONFIRMED
    DBS Goku (9 pts)
    Red Ribbon Army (1 pts)
    PERKS:
    Immune to outside effect GOKU (7 points)
    3 Senzu beans (3 pts)
  4. Jloneblackheart:
    Dr briefls 1 pt
    Buu 7 pts
    Satan 1 pt
    Bulma 1 pt
    PERKS:
    Mind link
    Full knowledge
    1 hr prep
    Strong wil (bulma)
  5. Theblindbandit:
    Dabura 6
    Cell 6
    PERKS:

    Double Extra character points x 4

    TP immunity 5

    One hour of prep x 2

  6. Gaoron:
    Bulma 1 pt
    Goku Black 9 points
  7. Chromtheexalt:
    SSB vegetto
  8. PereThorn: CONFIRMED
    Hit
    Hax immunity
    Invisibility
457 Comments

Debunking the "two-base misconception" (DBS anime)

Introduction:

In Dragon-ball super anime, due to non-clear representation of power levels and some misunderstood statements, some people like to believe in "2-base theory" which is quite popular around many internet forums.

Here I will try my best to prove that this is nothing more than a misconception, and note that since this is specifically focused towards super anime, I won't use super manga for anything except providing some supplementary material and additional info for the anime which is treated as primary source material for the purpose of this thread.

Origin:

The "two base theory" or "god base theory" as many call it, originates from RoF movie where it was hinted that goku's base form probably rivals Super Saiyan god. However no explicit claim was made about that. Now, in DB Super, which essentially rewrote the movies, Goku said something like "I am the super saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan god" when he turns SSB. Hence many people assume that he had the power of SSG in base already. The fact that Akira Toriyama once claimed that Goku absorbed the power of SSG further supports this assumption.

However, when in U6 tournament, everyone is able to give base goku a hard time, people can't handle U6 characters being SSG level. So, there is now a theory that Goku can only use "SSG level power" in base when he uses his white aura.

The "theory":

According to this theory, sometimes, Goku uses a base which is on or above SSG lvl and sometimes he uses a base which is only slightly stronger than his BoG arc self.

To sum up:

Goku (Godly base) = SSG >>>>>> Super vegetto >>>>>>>> Fat buu >>>>> Namek Freeza 100% >= Goku (Ungodly base) > BoG Goku (base)

However, the major drawback in this theory is that it believes in this chain:

SSB > Godly base >>>> SS3 >> SS2 >> SS1 >> Base

The debunk:

Goku does not have god ki in base:

Everytime he has been in base, his base has been sensed. Krillin even remarked that his base is on an whole different lvl than his former self, in ROF. If he had god ki, krillin won't be able to sense him.

Goku's base is not SSG level:

So far, there is not a single explicit statement which puts goku's base on super saiyan god's level. Infact, there is plenty of evidence for the contrary.

1. Goku's fight against freeza

  • King Kai's statement: "Amazing! Goku reached Super Saiyan god level again, and this time without the help of others."

If his base was anywhere near SSG level, then this statement entirely loses weight.

  • Narrator: "In order to surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God."

The narrator statement makes it pretty clear that Super Saiyan god is a huge deal and only SSB can surpass it.

It also implies this:

SSB > SSG > Powered up freeza > Base goku

So SSG and base are not really in the same realm.

  • Freeza (before goku turns ssb) tells goku to turn super saiyan and face him.
  • Freeza (after goku turns SSB) says goku is an enemy worth using his full power on and show his fruits of his training.

Significance: Basically a heavy implication that freeza believed goku can go super saiyan and he would still not need to show fruits of his training.

This shows that Goku is far below 1/50th of SSG,

  • Tien, Krillin and other humans on final form freeza - "Wow, he has powered up a lot"
  • but on golden freeza "F-freeza is an ab-absolute m-mo-monster"

Significance: Freeza's golden form is tiers above his "final form" which means that the "base" form of goku is nowhere near SSB and hence nowhere near SSG either.

2. The universe 6 tournament:

  • Performance against Cabba, frost etc

Frost is nowhere near SSG level as evident by his fight against piccolo.

So, base goku isn't anywhere near SSG level either since he was weaker than FF frost.

  • Fight against hit

Now, many people would throw in as an "evidence of 2 base theory" but it is not.

Goku fights against hit in base, hit isn't serious and tells goku to transform. Goku counters hit's time skip and then hit gets serious.

Infact, in this fight, goku shows no "aura" or anything like that.

3. The copy-vegeta arc:

Here, we get to see two fights:

1. (copy) Vegeta in base absolutely demolishes SS3 gotenks and goku matches him

2. Beerus in monaka costume fights Goku on an even level.

Thses two things prove nothing that Goku is anywhere near SSG level. The only thing it proves is that Goku's base is well above SS3 gotenks and around the level of (suppressed) Beerus in beginning of BoG.

4. Future trunks arc:

The fact that future trunks was able to even make SS2 goku exert slightest of effort proves base goku would be nowhere near SSG.

Then we see Zamasu giving SS2 goku issues and he is nowhere near SSG either.

Then again, we see that base black is SS2 to SS3 goku level. Black turns out to be stronger than base goku (due to Zamasu) but nowhere near SSG level despite having goku's body (that too a stronger one than the current goku).

All of these prove that SSG is far above base.

5. The universal survival arc:

The only time goku has fought as of yet is when he fights gohan. While it seems goku is suppressed, he is still exerting effort. If he was anywhere near SSG in base level, he could've finger-flicked SS gohan with ease while heavily suppressed.

Goku's base is well above fat buu tier:

1. The fight against freeza:

Tagoma treated Piccolo way worse than perfect cell could've treated cell games goku. Even if we believe piccolo made no progress sinec buu arc, he still should be close to cell games goku level. So, Tagoma is, at minimum, close to perfect cell's power.

Gohan treated him the same way his kid self treated full power perfect cell. So, he is actualy close to cell games gohan. Hell, I would massively lowball and say he is only half of kid gohan. First form freeza manhandled him. So, by scaling, final form freeza must be well above buu. That means so is base goku.

2. Universal tournament arc:

There is not much to confirm, except heavily weakened Frost being way more powerful than piccolo while holding back

  • Frost: "I will come at you without holding back" to vegeta when he tells the tournament organizers to give him a chance to fight frost.

Significance: Frost implies holding back against piccolo.

And this is piccolo after training with gohan for atleast 8 months since RoF.

While this does not prove goku/vegeta's base is above buu, it does prove that they are easily on or above perfect cell level at minimum.

3. The copy-vegeta arc:

What needs to be said? Stomping SS3 gotenks and matching heavily suppressed beerus, both of whom are well above buu, are good enough feats.

4. Future trunks arc:

Several indications here.

  • Vegeta blows up ROSAT by powering up, in base form.

It is a clear SS3 gotenks+ tier feat.

  • Super Saiyan 2 goku is said to be rivalling a god of destruction. If he was even weaker than someone like buuhan, why would Gowasu say that? Obviously, beerus is more powerful than he thought, so Gowasu corrected himself.

SS2 goku is 100x base goku. So, since SS2 goku is much, much stronger than anything seen in Z, it is obvious that base goku must have to be around if not above buu in base.

  • Future trunks while probably barely trying, easily defeats kid trunks (SS) off panel.

Not puts him above buu, but does put him around cell-games self in base, at minimum.

Base and godly base are not any seperate things:

1. Both have the same kind of ki.

Since it is proven that god ki can't be sensed, and regular ki can be, and the only saiyan forms to have god ki are SSG and SSB, both base and "godly" base have the same ki which is never stated to be special.

2. Same appearance

3. It is pure speculation:

Not once in the show is it implied that saiyans have 2 levels of base power. Base means base. It is meant to be a kids show, not be confusing with speculations. If the authors and creators have anything like that in their mind, they would've attempted to tell us.

4. The difference is never noted:

Krillin is one character who always notes power level differences. He noted it when goku came back from whis training to reach a new level (probably above buu)

However, he never notes an extremely notable thing that would be "hey, goku got even weaker than before, millions of times weaker by training in ROSAT for 3 years. He is thousands of times weaker even in Super Saiyan" How much sense does it make?

5. The only few "low showings" can be explained and none of the "high showings" require them to be SSG level or anywhere near it"

Conclusion:

So far, from RoF to universal survival arc, everything indicates that the base saiyans (goku and vegeta) have power level nowhere near Super Saiyan god, and above majin buu / fat buu, and very likely noticeably above SS3 gotenks. This means their power can be somewhere between Buuhan and Vegetto. This is supported by feats and showings.

34 Comments
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