Andromeda1001

@bigbaby: That was the only good issue today.

GODS was downright awful again, I don't know why it isn't canceled yet. And the Avengers one was pretty lackluster. At least next week, we're finally getting the Blood Hunt issue.

Black Winter, I'd say.

TOBA lacks showings.

@pyrofn:I don’t think Dormammu needs to control his residence to block Nightmare. I think all he needs is the power of his realm and some sort of proficiency in psychic ability.

Eh, I don't think I agree with that. Nightmare exists in the subconscious of beings, so every time someone sleeps, they're actually wandering through the borders of his realm(Which means they're not in the Dark Dimension anymore, per se). Dormammu would need to close the gates between dimensions inside the head of every resident, then.

Based on past conversations with Wastelandman, I am pretty certain they are of the opinion that Earth-based telepaths are vastly inferior to Earth-based sorcerers.

But I will let let wastelandman explain their own perspective rather than speak for them. But that is my assumption of their take anyways.

Well, I can't answer that for him. So I'll wait for Waste to explain his reasonings.

Yet, we also have instances of psychics doing better against more. I think we are dealing with more people just not understand how telepathy scales.

Like, we are talking about the same arguments that think just bringing a set of anti-tp shields ends the conversation.

I believe we need to somewhat find a common ground, but again, I'm not that much of an expert on characters like Agatha to know where exactly to place her. As I said before, I was just addressing that showing specifically.

@pyrofn said:

I don't see it like that, really. If that was indeed true, then the Dark Dimension wouldn't have rebellions and antagonizing factions. Dormammu has control over the foundations of his realm, yes, but not its inhabitants. As for Nightmare, it was already recently shown in Doctor Strange: Dimensional War that Dormammu's power is far above that of Nightmare's, comparing it to a hurricane dwarfing a storm, even while inside the Dream Dimension. Dormammu himself also said that could raze the entire Dream Dimension:

Gallery

I'm not aware of that, so I think @wastelandman is better suited to address it. I mean, magic and psychic scaling are closer than it seems, as shown during Strange and Moondragon's fight in Infinity Abyss(2002)#3.

Pretty sure we got instances with other psychics struggling with less, as well. But again, I'm not debating for Agatha. I was just addressing this specific showing.

@pyrofn said:

That's not even his best showing, but I don't think Agatha scales to him offensively. She should scale defensively, though.

Fair enough.

I mean, we got instances where Nightmare said that Dormammu overtook his mental/psych control over all of Dormammu's domains during Defenders Vol.3#1, causing a total cerebral lockdown.

And we know that Dormammu's Dark Dimension has an unfathomable number of realities:

So again, I think Agatha's showing is quite impressive. Regardless, I'm not saying that Agatha has more powerful telepathic abilities than Jean. All I'm saying is that her showing is quite solid overall, which you also pointed out the same thing.

Again, I don't believe Agatha has shown to struggle with less. I could be wrong, though.

Those are all good feats and all, but as I said to Pyro, I'm not really arguing against Jean or in favor of Agatha. All I'm saying is that Agatha has some impressive showings, as well.

@geekryan: Agatha pales in comparison to Dormammu though, so even if he wasn't at full power, how is it not PIS that she could block him?

It's kinda weird to me to use a feat for Agatha from decades ago, and scale her to a recent feat of Dormammu controlling a galaxy.

I'd say it's a high-end showing, really. Still, I don't think she showed an exact limit. @wastelandman knows more about her than I do, but once again, I don't believe Agatha has indeed shown to have a limit telepathy-wise.

Even before that storyline(Decades before, actually), Dormammu has still shown multi-dimensional telepathy range-wise:

Heck, during the following arc after Agatha/Wanda confront Dormammu and by the same writer, Umar(His inferior by a considerable margin) has shown beyond universal telepathy (Transdimensional telepathy, to be more precise):

So it's not an isolated feat that only happened in the future.

@wastelandman said:

Sort of. The problem is that Dormammu has never reached his full potential in that storyline, so it's a bit hard to say how much of his power was being unleashed. Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#2 says that Gaea banished him before the latter was fully manifested:

But again, I still believe the showing I posted was seemingly done casually.

@wastelandman said:

@andromeda1001 said:

Considering that Dormammu has put a galaxy under his control, I'd say it's quite impressive:

Gallery

I forgot about that, that's a really good point for scaling.

@geekryan said:

Was Dormammu actively trying to mind control the person Agatha shielded? I don't know what it is you are referring to so any context would be greatly appreciated

Yes, he was. No problem, here's the scan and the issue is from Giant-Size Avengers Vol. 1 #4 so you can check out yourself if you want:

It should still be noted that Dormammu was still actively growing in power when attacked Wanda and Agatha, though. He pretty much said neither of them could equal him after some more time regenerating inside Earth's core:

But like, Dormammu seemed to have causally put the Shi'ar Galaxy under his control, so it's still an impressive showing for Agatha.

@reaper4: Really? I saw folks siding with Cap on other sites.

@wastelandman: Thoughts?