AnakinVader99

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When asked who would win in a fight -- Ray Park’s Darth Maul or Hayden Christensen’s Anakin Skywalker -- Gillard had no hesitation. "Hayden would cream Darth Maul."

Source: Sword Master & Apprentice

I found this

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@uhu123 said:

@anakinvader99:

Rag dolling him just weeks before ROTS

Obi-Wan does improve vastly over the course of ROTS and this is not exactly a "ragdoll"

He is not Anakin

No it won't especially if he is not conflicted and wants to kill Obi-wan

Yes, it will. MFV is still > Anakin in power and while he is more calm and level-headed, all of Kenobis other advantages against Anakin still apply, he is not getting beaten quickly.

Proof? We have evidence to suggest otherwise such as him not sleeping or eating for days

He lost to a holding back Dooku and was fighting pretty well against a Mace who had to focus on two things at once

He hardpressed a Dooku who taught him everything he knew, thus had a significant advantage,

He pressed for a few moments not exactly that big again Sidious vs Mace

and was pretty much equalling a slightly distracted Mace while hindered in three ways himself, in the end even advancing stalwart before being BFRed.

Sidious advanced towards Mace look how that ended up in the duel

She is mentioned to have beaten before and is mentioned to be second only to Dooku more than once

Sources? Grievous is directly confirmed to be above Ventress and clowned her and Durge at the same time.

Of all the foes faced by the Jedi, Dark Jedi Asajj Ventress was second only to Count Dooku himself.

Credit to Greysentinel365

-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 55

"I hope, for your sake, you received an upgrade since we last crossed swords."

-- The Clone Wars: Lightsaber Duels

Actually no Ventress beat Grievous but for some reason stop attacking him

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5731988-2777365051-57315.png

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5731989-8499669042-57315.png

She literally disarmed him and then stopped attacking him and he choked her

She rag dolled him

That is not a ragdoll, this is catching Obi-Wan (who has notoriously poor force defenses) off-guard.

How come Dooku could put up a defence then?

Did Obi-Wan "ragdoll" Anakin when he force pushed him from behind?

Technically yes but Anakin was not paying attention unlike Obi-wan who was literally right next to her and was talking about her and sensing her

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@uhu123 said:

@anakinvader99:

Proof?

Ventress is above Obi-wan she is not losing easily to Maul

How in the world is Ventress above prime Obi-Wan?

Rag dolling him just weeks before ROTS

Anakin will murder Obi-wan

Not murder, although he wins it will be in a true marathon of a fight.

No it won't especially if he is not conflicted and wants to kill Obi-wan

Grievous is below Ventress

Grievous is close to both Mace and Dooku as of LoE

He lost to a holding back Dooku and was fighting pretty well against a Mace who had to focus on two things at once

and only lost against Obi-Wan due to stylistic reasons.

Still lost

The Dathomir fight was an amped Ventress it is not representative of her normal abilities.

She is mentioned to have beaten before and is mentioned to be second only to Dooku more than once

she beats Grievous by beating Obi-wan in the obsession comics

IIRC Obi-Wan was caught of guard and holding back

She rag dolled him

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/dyWpL55eqbpqy3uYcnQyiAZn2hEtuOrSyUij3ri7OgUXr488xGeZLHKmORUsH82303NR3S5kQmD1EaHtdh3sTGfot8bw9R1fSGJvxLLJiUU7WSZEwRI2SJ-wOheJycKarELkLA=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/M67QYzPLWdu4EhV-mYMijVEpAO9xk31Rrg5sKNCH7uc1jVezI9iRnv5oo58hl-kFi8xq8ySYZrrS36Qe7r9GaMmvYzfwaxQdDzbWwX8F9Dul_pOnK4HpHLxVL5vb2T1Z6f3c1g=s1600

and he wasn't exactly "beaten" in the end either.

Still rag dolled

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@anakinvader99: No he isn't

ure wrong. maul stomps dooku

Proof?

Ventress is above Obi-wan she is not losing easily to Maul

ventress lost to savage and was thrown about like a ragdoll twice.

Pre prime Ventress prime Ventress rag dolls Obi-wan casually

obi-wan beated ventress when they duel and he lost to savage too. maul stomped savage.

Pre prime Obi-wan

Anakin will murder Obi-wan

lmao he fails again

Anakin was not in his prime against Obi-wan hell he was weaker than he was against Dooku

Grievous is below Ventress

wrong again.

He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist.

There are statements to suggest otherwise not to mention more powerful could just mean he is physically stronger and going by feats and scaling she beats Grievous by beating Obi-wan in the obsession comics

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lmao team 1 stomps. maul beats Dooku

No he isn't

or no-diffs ventress.

Ventress is above Obi-wan she is not losing easily to Maul

whinakin dies to obi-1 again

Anakin will murder Obi-wan

and grievous beats ventress.

Grievous is below Ventress

mauls too much for them

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@anakinvader99:

True but Obi-wan also can measure by you know the force so yeah

Obi-Wan wasn't comparing Dooku and Maul by their power in the Force, rather, who overpowered him more. Hence why Jinn backing Kenobi would hinder Maul's ability to overpower him as Dooku did.

They weren't fighting all the time together not to mention he did mention he never met such power in battle suggesting no one he fought was stronger

That is kind of questionable quote considering Dooku experimented with the dark side before he met Sidious and had one of the oldest sith holocrons in history and is acknowledge as one of the most knowledge force wielders in history i am willing to take that quote with a grain of salt

Experimenting with the dark side is nothing compared to learning first hand from the most powerful Sith Lord in existence.

1 you seem to forget he had dozens of dozens of holocrons sure not as many as Palpatine would have but i am pretty sure it wasn't nearly as small. 2. Yoda was his teacher a near 900 year old master with a lot to teach

Which Maul has also done a lot more

Strawman. I never claimed Maul didn't exploit the Force against Kenobi.

You implied it

Dooku knows all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and was an instructor in them your point

Right but he knows Kenobi's Ataru intimately because of his mentorship with Jinn, who then and went on to train Kenobi. This is stated in the AOTC and ROTS novels, it is Canon fact. You cannot dispute it.

You can't dispute the fact Grievous was taught right after Qui-gon so Dooku would even more familiar considering the fact they are more fresh memories

It is when Obi-wan mastered Soresu in ROTS far more than he did against Maul hell if we take ROTS novel literally he mastered Soresu after the Maul fights

It wasn't his mastery of Soresu that increased, it was his mastery over the Force.

Lies

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Revenge of the sith novelization

Fighting him and Savage at the same time for one

Kenobi is confirmed to be amped by two different sources, one being Filoni and the other Shadow Conspiracy.

All right still wouldn't be that large

Maul and Savage are confirmed to be hindered by the small cave in Shadow Conspiracy.

Doesn't show it in the show not to mention Maul is known for studying his environment before hand you would think he would in this case

Kenobi caught Maul and Savage off guard with his offense per Shadow Conspiracy.

So did Anakin when he lost his temper against Dooku yet you still use it

Kenobi only tagged Maul once during the fight,

Still counts as he couldn't put up a proper defense

the rest of his hits were on Savage,

Still counts as neither could counter

whereas Maul ragdolled Kenobi twice.

One was rage amped and the other could have taken Obi-wan off guard

That is also something worth noting especially since Asajj is pre prime and everyone uses their skills to their advantage

Savage was also pre-prime?

Not as much Ventress

That kind of depends especially since Maul did that rather quickly which might have taken Savage off guard and people have done that before to physically stronger opponents

I don't think anybody has ever forcefully disarmed an opponent physically stronger than themselves.

Yes there have been cases of that its not really that hard if you hit certain spots

Which is something Obi-wan literally does no matter the opponent that is his way

Except in the ROTS novel, when he stonewalled Dooku.

That was when Dooku was being pushed by Anakin at the same time he wasn't going to push offensively on someone who is a physical powerhouse

Of course, Kenobi is always going to be on the defensive, I'm not praising Maul for putting Kenobi on the defensive, rather the fact that Maul was forcing Kenobi to give ground extremely fast, which only Anakin has been able to replicate.

Grievous has done the same and so has Ventress hell she knocked him out faster than Maul could

Still blocking them aside and literally sending his lightsaber his hand is pretty big

No, it's not blocking.

He still disarmed him and was able to move his blade to the side

He was taken off guard

He was staring directly at Savage before Savage even attacked him lol?

I missremembered still he couldn't put his full power to bear not to mention he was using one arm when usually he uses two against physical power houses

We actually are not sure if he is equal to Anakin as Anakin has been stated >Yoda who was equal to Sidious

Zonakin, the Anakin that stomped Dooku, isn't equal to Sidious.

Yes he is that is literally when Anakin reached that treshold

Only Knightfall Vader is confirmed equal to Sidious.

Pretty sure nightfall is when he surpassed Sidious

And Yoda actually managed to disarm Sidious, he is certainly > Zonakin.

Disarming doesn't mean >Zonakin hell Yoda is stated below Sidious multiple times

1. Are you really using a deleted scene

It's confirmed to be Canon.

Where? I could bring up deleted scenes where Dooku hits through Obi-wan's defence then

2. You can show strain and still hold back because your not using your full power

That makes zero sense. If Sidious was strained yet toying he would have increased his effort so he wouldn't be strained anymore, but that didn't happen, because he wasn't toying.

Ever heard of Frieza? Guess what he puts strain on himself against others far beneath him

Kind of contradicted by the fact Sidious is not panting or exhausted and is not shown nearly as panicked compared to other times where he is pushed

Literally look at the pictures I posted. If you think that's not showing strain you're simply being disingenuous.

I am not saying he isn't strained just the fact he is not nearly as pushed as say Mace did or Yoda

No he didn't

Let's go over each picture individually shall we?

First scan: Sidious shows visible anger

So has Frieza

Second scan: Sidious gets ragdolled

He literally doesn't look annoyed or pissed and that contradicts so many things not the least of which when Sidious rag dolled them twice not to mention him being confirmed significantly stronger than either of them. And again a deleted scene and if we want to go there Dooku managed to injure Yoda

Third scan: Sidious is barring his teeth

Again Frieza

Fourth scan: Sidious pants for breath

Still not nearly as exaughsted as against Mace and even then that Sidious doesn't look tired after fighting Maul

How one can claim Sidious wasn't strained is beyond me.

I never said he wasn't i was just saying if someone like Frieza has been strained and holding back why can't Palpatine

especially since Maul was rage amped but was disarmed all the same

Maul was disarmed because his rage amp ran out of energy. It's similar to how us humans can only use our adrenaline for a certain period of time before we get fatigued since it consumes energy rapidly. Hence why Maul was initially overpowering Sidious in the bladelock, but then lost.

That rage amp should have lasted longer especially compared to other characters not to mention he was still kicked by Sidious and wasn't able to do much

Could you provide the scans

For which? I cited two different instances.

When

Windu is very hard to gauge

Not really. Yoda stated in Dark Rendezvous that Windu is Dooku's equal.

Yet multiple sources suggest that is not true

and Kenobi is still listed beneath Dooku

Nope. Kenobi held out much longer against a more powerful Anakin, albeit with more favorable circumstances.

Anakin in invincible hand before rage amp>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mustafar Vader

You mean just like Maul

Maul has only ever been hindered by external circumstances vs Kenobi.

So was Dooku

also Anakin is far weaker than he has ever been in mustafar. Going by the novel he is sleep deprived, conflicted and hasn't eaten so if anything Obi-wan did worse hell that same Anakin is declared to be capable of beating Obi-wan

False. Anakin as of Mustafar is confirmed as a tier 9, meaning he's above his Jedi self, who is stated to be a tier 8.

Anakin is stated multiple times to be tier 9 in the invincible hand and is stated to be yoda tier during those moments

Yet lost to him at the end by a lot and got his arms chopped of faster than he has ever lost his limbs before

If you read the novel, you would know that Kenobi was being overwhelmed by Grievous' onslaught and was forced to attack, which caught him off guard.

If he was then he would be dead now wouldn't he not to mention he cut off his arms and Grievous has a supercomputer brain which would counter

And when Grievous literally abused his cybernetics your point?

Grievous' cybernetics are still part of his dueling abilities, Obi-Wan's TK is not.

Yes it is he is confirmed to use Niman so...

No he hasn't

Cite me an instance where Kenobi outduels Grievous besides ROTS.

How about when he disarmed as he was escaping one of the planets? And don't say he was off guard because you don't like it

Training? Also hindered is kind of questionable as Mace had to use the force as well to just stay on the train

I honestly don't think you've read any Star Wars material. The novel literally states that Windu is free to move around and attack unlike Grievous.

I have Labytinth of evil,ROTS,ATOC,Heir to the empire and so many others. Also but he still needs to make sure he still can hold himself there by using the force so he has to basically fight and amp his feet

When did he amp himself? Also Obi-wan is literally beating Grievous in the novel and the movie to the point where Grievous lost his limbs faster than ever

When he gave into the Force, and let the Force guide him. It's what allowed him to last against Anakin on Mustafar.

Yet its also confirmed that he was going to loose against Anakin

Proved when?

AOTC Dooku = AOTC Yoda per Lucas

Yeah and both are stated to have gotten stronger to the point Sidious was being threatened by dooku

ROTS Dooku gets stomped by Zonakin

Who is easily>>Yoda

KFV is > Zonakin

Yeah but Anakin is still stated to be Yoda level in the Dooku fight pre amp so...

KFV = Sidious

That is not the case

Yoda disarms Sidious

Yoda beat him in a duel

ROTS Yoda>>>AOTC Yoda

Doesn't change anything

Superior is kind of questionable especially since he was rage amped

He wasn't rage amped.

Yes he was when he literally lost his temper from being used by Dooku and Ventress

and he couldn't do anything besides force abilities

He was pushing them back with his saber?

Yet he couldn't do anything besides that

By superior skill

And that takes away from anything how? Not that that's the only reason either.

Yes it was and it takes away by literally not proving he is stronger

Considering TCW feats its kind of questionable S3 Anakin or Obi-wan are superior to ATOC Anakin and Kenobi in terms of feats

Literally makes zero sense. S3 Anakin and Kenobi have grown beyond their past versions.

I meant by feats considering how bad their feats are. Outside lore they really don't have much to stack up

Yes it does

Saying "yes it does" doesn't do anything. You have to actually back up your claim.

How about literally saying "and if anything deadlier" as in that as well

No he wasn't that fight was meant to be even hell Yoda couldn't do anything to prove he is above Dooku only made a tired Dooku retreat.

Yoda absolutely stomped Dooku once he stopped holding back, the text stating Yoda would "annihilate" Dooku had he chased him down.

Where? Also that is kind of contradicted by multiple other times they fought including one where Dooku beat Yoda after that novel

Also Yoda was also amped and was injured during the fight

Yoda was not amped. Vjun is a dark side nexus.

The Author said he was

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@darthor:

Canon Wise Dooku is not > Maul.

In legends neither Dooku nor Vader are beating Maul:

TPM Maul is superior to Grievous:

One of the big issues behind Grievous was that… I didn’t want a big powerful villain. I wanted a cunning, you know, almost cowardly villain who isn’t super-strong or super-powerful, but at the same time, you know, is a good fighter, but not- I didn’t wanna get somebody bigger and stronger and more powerful than the other villains that we’ve had, going to the next level."

Source: George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary

Note: I know this quote would also mean Dooku >= Grievous. I am not saying Maul is > Dooku by being >= Grievous, just that there is not a large gap between Dooku and Maul based on this quote, since Grievous and Dooku are close as duelists. This will be explained more so later on.

And SOD Maul is >> TPM Maul:

As of the Sith Hunter's ,Maul was equal to his TPM self:

No Caption Provided

Then in TCW S5 Savage was astounded with how much Maul had grown in power:

No Caption Provided

And Maul only grows stronger from Early TCW S5 to late TCW S5/SOD as he trains Savage:

And I shall complete your training, not as your brother, but as your master.

Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 1 Revival

''Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.''

Source: Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

SOD Maul>>TPM Maul>=ROTS Grievous.

Grievous was able to hard-Count Dooku in sparring.Sparring is a test of skill, rather than your physical attributes. Pure skill wise, Grievous was able to hardpress the Count:

There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself.

Just in case.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

Now obviously, the holding back of physical abilities hinders Grievous much more than it hinders Dooku, yet Grievous was still hardpressing him. In an all-out duel, no holding back, however also no force powers, it's quite clear that Grievous would beat the count.

Let's also look at Grievous' duel with Windu:

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face.

The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.

But he didn't know Vaapad-the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

In an all out fight, Grievous was fighting evenly with a slight superior to Dooku, despite Grievous himself being hindered more so than Windu by the maglev train. Grievous was also beating Windu at the end of the fight.

His ( Grievous's ) sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance." - Labyrinth of Evil.

Note: The text uses the word "stalwart" to describe Grievous's advance:

No Caption Provided

The way in which the word is used here implies that Grievous was advancing at a constant and steady rate, I:E beating Windu.Considering that the fight began with Mace crossing the distance between himself and Grievous and engaging the cyborg just as the latter drew his blades, the fact that Grievous is steadily advancing on Mace would seem to suggest that Windu gave ground at some point earlier in the fight, which shows that Windu was losing to Grievous at the end.

From this we can deduce that Grievous is a peer of Dooku, per hardpressing Dooku in sparring and fighting evenly with and even gaining the upper hand against Non-Vaapad Mace while hindered.

To recap:

SOD Maul>>TPM Maul~ROTS Dooku~Non-Vaapad Mace>=ROTS Grievous.

And Non-Vaapad Mace was a tier 8-bordering on 9 and ROTS Dooku is a tier 8:

Nick Gillard : ''And somebody like Kit Fisto is 7. I did take it to 8 and 9. But not many people know that. 8 and 9 is cheat.''

''Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III (7 to 8), but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. So Obi-Wan is 8. Yoda is 9.Mace is 8 bordering on 9. Dooku & Maul (TPM) are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned.''

Source:Danger-inc.com,Theforce.net,Saberproject.

The tiering system was worked on by Lucas and Gillard:

How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground."

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels."

Source:http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

And ROTJ Vader and ROTS Dooku are peers per Lucas:

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperorhe was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Source: George Lucas and the Cult of Darth Vader

The correct interpretation is as follows: Anakin, before his injuries on Mustafar ("From then on" referring to his injuries) was "as strong as the Emperor". This is a comparison of power equality: Lucas is saying Anakin is equal to Sidious. He then follows it up with a second comparison, "he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." Since the two comparisons are components which make up a larger comparison, they both operate on the same basis: one of power equality. So since Lucas is saying Anakin is equal to Sidious in the first comparison (as strong as), he's also saying Vader, Dooku, and Maul are equal in the second because they follow the same basis of comparison.

To recap:
SOD Maul>>TPM Maul~ROTS Dooku~ROTJ Vader>=ROTS Grievous

Pretty sure i debunked this on another thread

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@w4nkdestroyer2 said:

He actually said the opposite, that Anakin started off as an 8 like Obi-Wan.

Incorrect. So Nick G is famous for changing his mind, so can't really blame you here.

Every guy involved in SW changes their mind

In the first tier list, 2005, he puts Anakin at 9. In the second tier list, in 2011, he puts Anakin at Yoda/Sidious, but above them.

He is known for putting Anakin above them in 2005 i can give you 3 sources that say that

In the interview with homing beacon, he stated that Anakin became a 9 between AOTC and ROTS, and he is "unbeatable" and "Far more powerful then anyone in the Galaxy". Specifically not Dark Side Anakin.

Evidence?

He then went on to say that only Yoda and Sidious are 9s.... in the SAME interview.

There is a difference in between levels you know

What you are referring to is a interview in 2016, where he once again changed his mind on Anakin, on the Saberproject youtube channel, where he describes the Dark Side as Force LSD, and it made him a 9.

Evidence he didn't account for that?

But, super important to note, that the Dark Side is not mentioned in 99% of Nick Gillard quotes involving Anakin. He was talking about Jedi Anakin, and then backtracked to include the Dark Side later.

Evidence? Anakin is dark side 99% percent of his fights

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KFV is not a 9. People need to stop saying that.

As soon as you prove he is not

Nick is a moron.

Oh yes guy from the internet who has clearly been working in the prequels all along surely i can take your opinion instead of throwing it aside

He also said Jedi Anakin, not even Zonakin, is a 9. lol

He specifically said it was the dark side that made him a 9

Two dookus can beat Cannon KFV. In general, two 8.5s can take a 9.

Of course

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@darthor

Which again will not affect his overall opinions regarding Maul, as seeing Maul fending off his master so well will be even more accurate. By all means, as a Jedi, his evaluation of the capabilities of the Sith will not be too inaccurate. Also, besides, Obi Wan was also watching Maul fend off Qui-gon alone, so this is not to be taken into account.

Obi-Wan watching Qui-Gon fight Maul is not the same as facing Maul himself. Like, you're comparing two completely different things. Obi-Wan is talking about how he personally never felt that overpowered, not Jinn, nor Anakin in AOTC.

True but Obi-wan also can measure by you know the force so yeah

I think you forgot to post a quote. But anyways, I agree with this, but his evaluations should be accurate seeing Maul fend off Qui-Gon alone.

This is the quote:

So this is a Sith Lord, he thought fleetingly as he dodged and leaped. It was taking every skill he knew just to stay alive.

Source: The Phantom Menace Novelization

It is also necessarily true that he saw Dooku fend off Anakin in a 1v1, in which case Dooku has the style disadvantage.

Again, watching somebody fight is not the same as actually fighting them. That and Anakin wasn't using Djem So against Dooku, he was using Ataru. He only started using Djem So after his loss on Geonosis.

1. We have no idea if Maul even trained in Sith knowledge. Of all the sources that we have about Maul's trainings, his trainings are vastly more combat trained compared to knowledge. On the flip side, Dooku is always immersed in knowledge due to his Jedi nature and it is very possible that he will have more knowledge

These quotes confirm Maul had sufficient training in the Force:

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, for their part, recognize Darth Maul as the most dangerous foe they have ever faced: a Sith Lord with not only training to equal their own but Sith secrets that could make him all but invincible in battle.

Source: Star Wars Miniatures Ultimate Missions - Clone Strike

A deadly combatant and powerful Sith Lord, Maul spent his entire life in servitude to the dark side of the Force. Taken from his home at a very early age by Darth Sidious, Maul was trained mercilessly in all forms of the Sith arts, becoming the living embodiment of evil.

Source: Star Wars Fandex Deluxe Edition

"pushing his force abilities to the extreme":

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Dave Filoni: “Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.”

Source: Weekly ForceCast - May 4, 2012

Dave Filoni: “The root of that though is that if he is a good apprentice to Sidious, Sidious would train him in his likeness really, and teach him what he knows. The Sith by their nature can’t be so overt. He is a deadly weapon because George needed him to be that in Phantom Menace, but he didn’t have the time to get more into who he is.”

Source: Weekly ForceCast - May 4, 2012

Obi-Wan Kenobi : "I believe Maul's rage was so powerful, and his knowledge of the Dark Side so great, he simply refuse to die..."

Source: The Sith Hunters

Mighella attempts to use an energized sword to stop Darth Maul, then surprises him with a burst of Force Lightning. A moment after Mighella realizes her opponent is a Sith Lord with far superior Dark Side knowledge, she is felled by a lethal slash of Maul's lightsaber.

Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Maul extracts information from a holocron Sidious built.

Source: The New Essential Guide to Characters

This is besides all of the quotes Maul has calling him one of the most skilled apprentices in history, I just wanted to cite accolades that would directly reference knowledge, though logically being one of the most skilled apprentices also means you are extremely knowledgeable in the ways of the Force.

2. While Maul has more Sith trainings, Dooku has more training overall. And Jedi training will still contribute to knowledge of the force overall.

Considering the powers of the dark-side were beyond Dooku's "most spectacular fantasies", nah.

That is kind of questionable quote considering Dooku experimented with the dark side before he met Sidious and had one of the oldest sith holocrons in history and is acknowledge as one of the most knowledge force wielders in history i am willing to take that quote with a grain of salt

Secondly, the fact that knowledge of the force will not help.

In order to respond to this counter, we have to flip a few pages back.

In the same source, it also discusses the comparison between Maul and Dooku's lightsaber dueling, and it clearly stated that Dooku is the more skilled combatant. So no, the analyze of this source is quite thorough and it doesn't just discuss his force knowledge as Dooku's mean of victory.

You're citing two different quotes and trying to combine them into one; you can't do that. You have to analyze each quote individually. The first, cites that Dooku wins due to Maul's lack of force knowledge, the second, cites that Dooku wins because he is more technically skilled with a lightsaber. That's all.

Now, obviously, Maul is the faster and stronger combatant, but I will indeed respond to this argument.

Strength:

This will have 2 departments. First, is about scaling. So first, obviously, we have the entire Maul >>> Savage >>>>>> Dooku in terms of physics thing. My rebuttals:

Number 1: Dooku has successfully fenced off Obi Wan with ease, and Kenobi, while pre-prime compared to ROTS, the version that fought Dooku, had easily fenced off Maul during his duel about Kenobi and Gallia vs Maul and Savage. Note, this happened before he got the notable rage amp from Gallia's death.

Dooku has only ever easily dealt with Kenobi is when he exploits the Force,

Which Maul has also done a lot more

or when he exploits his knowledge of Kenobi's use of Ataru, since Kenobi was trained by Jinn and Dooku trained Jinn, this is stated in the AOTC and ROTS novel.

Dooku knows all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and was an instructor in them your point

Hell, during ROTS when Kenobi was using Soresu, Dooku was too scared to even attack him. Dooku's fights with Kenobi are not comparable to Maul's fights with Kenobi.

It is when Obi-wan mastered Soresu in ROTS far more than he did against Maul hell if we take ROTS novel literally he mastered Soresu after the Maul fights

Based on what did Kenobi fence off Maul easily on Florrum?? He was being forced to give ground rapidly, akin to his Mustafar fight with Anakin.

Fighting him and Savage at the same time for one

Number 2: Dooku also showed physical dominance over Asajj, who herself matched Savage in sabers despite being physically weaker, so I doubt Dooku will just get overwhelmed through one hit. So what happened in that scaling?

Asajj didn't match Savage, she was clearly losing. And she only was able to hold her own by exploiting her own agility advantage.

That is also something worth noting especially since Asajj is pre prime and everyone uses their skills to their advantage

Well, first, it's fit to say that the Maul part is far from just a common comparison of strength. It was clearly more of a strategic mistake on Savage's part, overextending his arm so that Maul has the vast advantage and managed to roll it. If it is a direct comparison of strength, nothing suggests Maul is above Savage.

Maul being able to grab Savage's arm is a finesse move yes, but being able to physically twist is against his will is a showing of physical dominance.

That kind of depends especially since Maul did that rather quickly which might have taken Savage off guard and people have done that before to physically stronger opponents

Not only that, but Maul has shown superior strength to Savage on another occasion as well:

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We don't know if Maul used one arm like Savage or used both

Again, Maul never dueled "evenly" with Kenobi, he was pushing him back the entire time.

Which is something Obi-wan literally does no matter the opponent that is his way

And Maul's form emphasizes a balance of speed and strength, whereas Savage emphasizes purely strength. So obviously Savage is going to be more physically dominant than Maul.

Secondly, I doubt that Savage can just easily overpower Dooku with one strike. There are a lot of counterarguments for that feat, my favorite being Savage having the momentum advantage as he was charging forward.

Now, Dooku also showed the ability to block Savage before the fight:

Dooku isn't blocking Savage's strikes, he's parrying them, which reduces the momentum of the strike.

Still blocking them aside and literally sending his lightsaber his hand is pretty big

The one instance he tried to block Savage's strike head on he got flung across the room.

He was taken off guard

Next, speed:

Now, obviously, you have the thing about Maul being close to Sidious (BTW, all my experience debating against Maul comes against hellothere, so sorry if you don't use these arguments), but Dooku did show similar speed to AOTC Yoda:

Dooku contends with Yoda in a duel, responding to all his strikes and showing comparable speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLV-Vpy1gqQ

And while it is true that ROTS Yoda probably > AOTC Yoda, nothing suggests major speed growth, especially with his age, his speed might very well decrease over the ages. So, Dooku can definitely compare in regards to speed. And yes, while Maul is faster, again, it will not be a determining factor.

Proof?

ROTS Yoda is vastly faster than AOTC Yoda because AOTC Yoda is confirmed equal to Dooku by Lucas, whereas ROTS Yoda is confirmed equal to Sidious, who we know is far above Dooku via being equal to Anakin who trashed and almost blitzed Dooku.

We actually are not sure if he is equal to Anakin as Anakin has been stated >Yoda who was equal to Sidious

Lets first go over some direct rebuttals against Maul's best feats. Firstly, in regards to them contending with Sidious, let's go on and say that they did not contend. Here are 4 sources stating that (credits to u btw):

So basically, Maul did not contend with Sidious, at all.

The reason I posted those to begin with is to show that secondary C-canon sources aren't always correct. Another example would be of C-canon sources saying Anakin was not hindered in his fight with Kenobi on Mustafar, despite the novel and the movie (to some extent though not as the novel) depicting Anakin as hindered throughout his fight. Similarly, Sidious is showed to be strained throughout his fight against Maul and Savage:

1. Are you really using a deleted scene

2. You can show strain and still hold back because your not using your full power

And not only that, but there are actually C-canon sources which all support the idea that the brothers did give Sidious a hard fight:

Kind of contradicted by the fact Sidious is not panting or exhausted and is not shown nearly as panicked compared to other times where he is pushed

So those four C-canon quotes would cancel each other out, and we're left with the episode itself, where as I showed above, Sidious is shown to have considerable trouble with the duo.

No he didn't especially since Maul was rage amped but was disarmed all the same

Next, we have his feats against GG. This is a very common rebuttal for the argument of Dooku > Maul, and it is that Maul >> GG ~ Dooku. Let's look at this in separate parts. Firstly, regarding Maul >> GG. While there is one quote talking about Maul "easily driving GG away", it doesn't prove much. Here is how the fight was depicted in SoD:

They dueled for a bit

GG kicked Maul and mocked him about his soldiers falling back

Sidious got Mother Talzin out of Dooku's body

Maul force pushed GG away. So note, Maul never actually got the upperhand against GG, which means it can only apply to the force push part, not the dueling part.

I'm starting to think you didn't actually read SOD lol. GG kicked Maul in their first encounter, on Dathomir, which was the third encounter, Grievous was being pushed back by Maul as you can see that they are closer to the hole in the wall.

Could you provide the scans

Secondly, regarding Dooku ~ GG.

Let's start by saying spars and real duels are fundamentally different. In a spar, Mace Windu was fighting evenly with Depa despite all of Depa's feats and scalings all points at her being easily below Mace. So no, a spar cannot speak account for a real duel between two individuals.

I'm aware that spars are not end all be all. Hence why I also cite Grievous' duels with other Dooku tiers such as Windu and Kenobi.

Windu is very hard to gauge and Kenobi is still listed beneath Dooku

Now, let's look at scalings regarding Dooku > GG. Dooku >> ROTS Obi Wan > TCW Obi Wan ~ GG. All 4 of their duel in TCW proves inconclusive.

  1. Dooku is not far above Kenobi, as he has only ever beat Kenobi with external circumstances as I explained above. In fact Kenobi is above Dooku via his performance against Anakin. You mean just like Maul also Anakin is far weaker than he has ever been in mustafar. Going by the novel he is sleep deprived, conflicted and hasn't eaten so if anything Obi-wan did worse hell that same Anakin is declared to be capable of beating Obi-wan
  2. Grievous has consistently outdueled Kenobi throughout TCW, even during the Utapau Arc which took place a couple weeks before ROTS. Yet lost to him at the end by a lot and got his arms chopped of faster than he has ever lost his limbs before

Obi-Wan and Grievous often fought to a stalemate when they clashed, so evenly matched were they as warriors.

They fought to a stalemate because Kenobi was able to make headway by abusing the Force.

And when Grievous literally abused his cybernetics your point?

As far as dueling is concerned, Grievous always bested Kenobi, even when Kenobi surprise attacked him.

No he hasn't

So no, Dooku >>> GG, not Dooku ~ GG, which simply doesn't make any sense.

How does it not make any sense? Grievous was stalemating Windu (a peer of Dooku) during Labyrinth of Evil despite being hindered by the Maglev training.

Training? Also hindered is kind of questionable as Mace had to use the force as well to just stay on the train

He was also capable of overwhelming Obi-Wan's Soresu (which Dooku wasn't) until Kenobi gave into the Force and amped himself.

When did he amp himself? Also Obi-wan is literally beating Grievous in the novel and the movie to the point where Grievous lost his limbs faster than ever

Let's look at Dooku's feats in terms of dueling shall we?

Firstly, in AOTC, note, vastly pre-prime, Dooku was near equal to Yoda:

Because Yoda at that point is nowhere near his ROTS version, as I proved before.

Proved when?

Next, he was also superior to the duo of Anakin and Kenobi together, but I guess you can argue they are also pretty bad at this point:

S3 Savage was superior to the duo of S3 Anakin and Obi-Wan,

Superior is kind of questionable especially since he was rage amped and he couldn't do anything besides force abilities

and S5 Maul trashed S5 Savage.

By superior skill

S5 Maul>>>S5 Savage>S3 Savage>S3 Anakin and Kenobi>>AOTC Anakin and Kenobi.

Considering TCW feats its kind of questionable S3 Anakin or Obi-wan are superior to ATOC Anakin and Kenobi in terms of feats

Canon:Sources even suggest that Dooku could easily defeat both Anakin and Obi-Wan together:

I would hope so.

Another source reiterates Dooku's superiority over the combined skills of Anakin and Obi-Wan, as well as claiming that he is deadlier thanDarth Maul:

The quote states Dooku is deadlier than Maul because he is more "sophisticated" and "calculating". It has nothing to do with actual combat skills.

Yes it does

And as I stated in the CaV with RedGuardian, given Maul was able to outsmart Dooku in SOD, I doubt Dooku is more calculating to begin with.

Note, during the duel between Anakin and Dooku, Anakin was described to have a "flash of brilliance", so he should be way above the simple Anakin depicted before. Now, let's look at why is Anakin having this flash of brilliance shall we.

Firstly, he was mad at Dooku for killing so much Jedi. That is why he was screaming for Dooku to pay when he charges at Dooku

Secondly, Padme just fell because of Dooku, and this lead to a visible rage amp.

Thirdly, Dooku just injured Obi Wan, which should further add to Anakin's anger. And we all know how dangerous that can be.

Also, note, he was described at toying with Obi Wan. Thus, his constant use of Dun Moch that lead to further angering Kenobi.

Cool I guess? I already knew this though.

1. There are no proof for growth of Yoda between AOTC and ROTS

There is, as I've explained above.

2. On the other hand, Dooku had experienced much growth.

Lmao, so what are you saying, that Dooku would beat ROTS Yoda??

So, yes, it is quite impressive still.

So then, we have TCW. Let's highlight his feats in a chronological order:

Easily contending with Savage and Ventress at the same time.

Defeating Ventress and 2 other super skilled nightsisters while drugged:

"Karis and Naa'leth are the greatest warriors of our coven."

Here is the video of the duel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6s6lHLJBvE

Dooku easily defeats an enraged Asajj Ventress:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sq9xM_NVWs

When she claimed to be Sith, Dooku laughed in her face before shocking her into unconsciousness with Force Lightning. Later, when she had recovered, Ventress launched an attack on Dooku. The Count easily defeated the woman and destroyed her lightsabers.

He humbled Tholme and Sora Bulp.

He was fighting well against Savage and Ventress at the same time.

Easily out-dueling Obi Wan Kenobi a lot of times

He dueled Yoda evenly, although he was amped on Vjun.

He fended off Skywalker with a lightwhip, a weapon he is unfamiliar with.

So yeah, he is extremely impressive, for more feats, please check his RT I posted above.

Canon:Dooku proves a formidable foe for bothAnakin SkywalkerandObi-Wan Kenobitogether aboard theInvisible Hand.He appears at ease even with the two of the Jedi attacking him simultaneously, and though they use every trick they know and strike at him from every angle, he blocks all of their strikes, forces their blades into each other, and occasionally lands hits on them:

Dooku fights evenly with Anakin Skywalker, with neither combatant able to gain an advantage:

Note, this is after him being tired from 1v2 Anakin and Obi Wan, and also, he has a form disadvantage against Skywalker.

Canon: Dooku holds his own against an enraged Anakin Skywalker, who is a level 9 duelist (placing him in league with the likes of Yoda and Darth Sidious), even though Dooku had not anticipated Anakin's newfound strength:

So yes, Dooku should be decently above Maul in terms of dueling

  1. Dooku didn't duel Yoda evenly lol. He was decisively outmatched while Yoda was holding back and once Yoda stopped holding back he stomped Dooku. And again, this is a Dooku who is amped No he wasn't that fight was meant to be even hell Yoda couldn't do anything to prove he is above Dooku only made a tired Dooku retreat. Also Yoda was also amped and was injured during the fight
  2. Skywalker using a lightwhip would hinder himself more than it would hinder Dooku, given he isn't used to it either.
  3. Dooku definitely didn't hold his own against Anakin lol, he lasted 13 seconds. Rage amped Anakin who could slaughter Maul
  4. Given Maul during TPM is confirmed equal to Dooku during ROTS by Lucas, and TCW Maul is >> TPM Maul, he can definitely replicate and exceed all these showings He never said they are equal