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Is Jaina Solo on Luke Skywalker's level as a Combatant?

Well, seeing as how Star Wars opinions range all over the place on characters like Revan, Darth Plagueis, Darth Caedus, Darth Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Darth Bane, and many other characters, I thought I'd throw in my two cents about where I feel Jaina Solo stands as a combatant.

I'm not arguing that she is as powerful as Luke or an equal of him, but I am arguing that her performance in combat is on his level, which in my opinion, puts her at least above the level of her brother, Darth Caedus.

ShootingNova's respect thread of Jaina is very thorough, though I shall put in my own thoughts on her showings and accolades.

First of all, some accolades:

"All Luke's team had to do was take out that shield generator.

On most days, that would have been an easy jobs for two Jedi Masters and Jaina Solo, who, as the Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and time again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order."

While this might or might not be Luke's personal opinion seems a bit unclear to me, seeing as how the preceding text refers to a general overview of the situation, with some of Luke's thoughts interspersed. However, I think it fits nicely with Jaina's performance against some of the best Sith Sabers on the potent nexus of Ziost:

Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi's reflexes as it fueled their enemies.

...

He felt Jaina in the Force, strong and calm, her back to him but not quite touching his. Bonded by blood and the Force itself, they performed a duet of death tot he half dozen Sith pressing in for the attack. They leapt and swung, ducked and kicked in such swift, perfect harmony that an observer might have thought their moves had been choreographed. More than once, an overly confident Saber charged, only to end up slashing at his fellow Sith. In short order two were on the ground, and the odds were now a mere two to one.

Luke could hear the sizzle of lightsabers clashing behind him, only centimeters away, and then the acrid stench of burned flesh and Jaina's blade struck home.

...

Lost in that piercing gaze, Ben heard, as if from a great distance, the sound of lightsabers being extinguished and he knew that his father and Jaina had won their fights.

Source: Fate of the Jedi: Ascension

Credit: ShootingNova

While Wollfmyth209 has suggested that the duo might have used Battle Meld, as they did against Yuuzhan Vong, I don't recall the text making note of that. Besides, Jaina being "the combat equal of anyone in the Order" fits with her fighting "in such swift, perfect harmony." She even takes out their third foe before Luke finishes the fourth, showing that her skill and force augmentation were at least on Luke's tier.

Besides, Troy Denning includes two passages that seem to highlight Jaina's ability:

"Maybe Luke had sensed the danger and forced the issue--or maybe he had been their true target all along. Perhaps they feared Luke Skywalker that much.

And that was a mistake.

Luke Skywalker was not the Sword of the Jedi. Jaina was, and now the Sith had trapped themselves inside a locked Temple with her."

"But Jaina also knew she could never last two and a half-minutes against the Keshiri woman--not anymore. Her entire body felt like it was burning from the inside out, and she was not at all sure her muscles would obey when the time came--as Luke kept ordering--to stand and fight. She thought she might last thirty seconds, maybe even a minute if the Force was with her. But two and a half minutes? In two and a half minutes she would be dead."

From Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

While these are clearly from Jaina's point of view, I think two conflicting purposes for Denning to include them are evident: either to highlight Jaina's combative ability, or to portray her as an arrogant fighter. Seeing as how Jaina's humility with her assignment to Jedi Master was later highlighted, I doubt the latter is the case.

As for force power, again, while I don't think Jaina is as powerful as Luke, she still manages to eventually counterract Abeloth's force push here:

"Abeloth's hand flicked, and Jaina found herself tumbling down the duct backward. She saw the dark rectangle of a stack-head flash past beneath her; she slammed down and rolled twice before she could finally use the Force to bring herself to a stop. She came up on her knees, facing back the way she had come, and saw Abeloth leaping across the pit toward her."

From Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

Clearly, Jaina did little more than what Mace Windu did when Sidious nearly pushed him out the window, and obviously Abeloth was extremely hindered, with a lightsaber wound through the gut and her Pagorski aspect having been vaporized. However, seeing as how A: Jaina was suffering from various injuries and Force-based cell overload, B: the lightsaber wound didn't stop this Abeloth from incapacitating Luke with point-blank lightning and one-shot incapacitating Corran with lightning, and C: When Abeloth was injured from Mnemotherapy, she had been able to one-shot nuke a city of Sith, I think it's still a nice feat for Jaina.

Again, I don't claim to be an expert on Jaina or the lore, especially since I haven't read most of NJO, but I wanted to put my two cents out there!

Thanks for reading!

52 Comments

52 Comments

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AmethystGravity

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Some tags, though I know we've gone over this before:

@wollfmyth209@kbroskywalker

Thanks, Wollf, for debating this matter earlier with me, and thanks Kbro for the idea!

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kbroskywalker

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@amethystgravity:

I'm not arguing that she is as powerful as Luke or an equal of him

Well combatively she is unless you have something that invalidates luke's own opinion or exempts luke from the quote:

"All Luke's team had to do was take out that shield generator.

On most days, that would have been an easy jobs for two Jedi Masters and Jaina Solo, who, as the Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and time again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order."

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kbroskywalker

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Necromancer76

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First off, thanks for the tag.

Regarding Jaina: I need to read the respect thread, but my current feeling for her is her dueling might be on par with Caedus, but I think she's lacking in the force compared to her brother.

I'll read the respect thread as soon as I can.

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TheVivas

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No, don't think she is. But it's not like that's an insult to her. She'd basically be the Mace Windu to Luke's Yoda.

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kbroskywalker

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Edited By kbroskywalker

@necromancer76 said:

First off, thanks for the tag.

Regarding Jaina: I need to read the respect thread, but my current feeling for her is her dueling might be on par with Caedus, but I think she's lacking in the force compared to her brother.

I'll read the respect thread as soon as I can.

Being combatively equal to luke definitely puts her above caedus unless you want to argue that caedus is luke level

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Necromancer76

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@kbroskywalker: Dueling or Force? Dueling maybe, but her force power doesn't compare to Caedus, who is still less than Luke.

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kbroskywalker

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@kbroskywalker: Dueling or Force? Dueling maybe, but her force power doesn't compare to Caedus, who is still less than Luke.

why would being "combatively equal" only apply to dueling?

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Slayedigneel

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"as the Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and time again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order."

I'm pretty skeptical of how it was worded, "equal of anyone" not superior. Since it's from Luke's point of view, I would assume he was thinking of everyone in the order excluding himself. Also wouldn't it be logical to assume that whose bloodline is closer to Anakin's would be more powerful force wise. Not to mention she doesn't have any proper accolades, or serious feats to put her at luke's level force wise. Dueling, skill wise would be more logical to assume to be on par with Luke, I don't know if being called the sword of the jedi means anything.

She even takes out their third foe before Luke finishes the fourth

That would be under the assumption that the sith she faced were on par with the one's luked faced. I assume the stronger force users would target the stronger one, it would be illogical not too.

So, no I do not believe she was luke's equal as a combatant.

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darthbane77

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Lol, no.

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BlueHope

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Wans't Luke supposed to be like...close to Anakin lvl who was stated to have the greatest potential in star wars history?

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noobsnowman

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Edited By noobsnowman

Absolutely not. She is considerably below Darth Caedus, only matching him when he was not only severely injured, but his mind was not even in the fight - and even then she could only fight him to a draw. Jaina, by my estimation, is a Dooku level combatant.

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Necromancer76

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@kbroskywalker: Well then I guess they aren't compatively equal. Caedus has a vast variety of Force powers that even Jaina can't use.

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Necromancer76

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deactivated-5a20a68641bc7

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Interesting. In hindsight I realise that perhaps I should have positioned Jaina higher than ROTJ Luke on a recent Battles gauntlet. I'm still in the rather early days of the NJO/post-NJO period with regard to reading through the Star Wars books, having recently started The Crystal Star in which Jaina is still a young child. She certainly seems like a character worth paying close attention to!

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bigsambino87

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Prime Jaina is about Mace level with the Force, maybe a little lower, but that doesn't stop her from being just as deadly as Luke with a blade.

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the_wspanialy

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@thevivas said:

No, don't think she is. But it's not like that's an insult to her. She'd basically be the Mace Windu to Luke's Yoda.

Pretty much.

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slayne

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@thevivas said:

No, don't think she is. But it's not like that's an insult to her. She'd basically be the Mace Windu to Luke's Yoda.

This. She's undoubtedly powerful, but Luke's just in another league.

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kbroskywalker

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@noobsnowman: that was a pre prime jaina

@kbroskywalker: Well then I guess they aren't compatively equal. Caedus has a vast variety of Force powers that even Jaina can't use.

caedus may be a more varied force user, but that doesn't at all preclude jaina from surpassing caedus in terms of power

Prime Jaina is about Mace level with the Force, maybe a little lower, but that doesn't stop her from being just as deadly as Luke with a blade.

being a "combat equal" of someone doesn't just refer to dueling

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Pharoh_Atem

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No.

It takes a little more than one subjective quote to stake such a claim - especially when she is inferior in every way possible on paper, and in practice.

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Necromancer76

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@kbroskywalker: What exactly does Jaina have over Caedus in the force?

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kbroskywalker

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No.

It takes a little more than one subjective quote to stake such a claim - especially when she is inferior in every way possible on paper, and in practice.

What as of fotj puts her inferior in every way on paper or in practice? Their performances as of jaina's prime vs the same opponents back this up. And when the subjective quote is coming from luke himself, there's no reason for it to be biased. There's also jaina's own thoughts which also back the quote up.

@kbroskywalker: What exactly does Jaina have over Caedus in the force?

Given that she's a combat equal of luke, the force gap logically shouldn't be all that big, otherwise luke would still be able to combatively outperform her. Either way, given that her being potrayed on luke's level as of her prime, her showings compared caedus 4 years prior would have little to no bearing here.

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noobsnowman

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Edited By noobsnowman

@kbroskywalker: Her title of "Sword of the Jedi" was established due to her fight with Caedus, which wasn't even a legitimate victory to begin with.

Caedus clowns her if he is fresh.

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kbroskywalker

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@kbroskywalker: Her title of "Sword of the Jedi" was established due to her fight with Caedus, which wasn't even a legitimate victory to begin with.

Caedus clowns her if he is fresh.

Yet again, that was a pre prime jaina. And how her title of sword of the jedi was earned doesn't changed that luke himself considers her to be on par with him or that their performances as of jaian's prime vs the same opponents were on the same level. How caedus comapred to jaina 4 years prior isn't really relevant here

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slayne

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Edited By slayne

@kbroskywalker: What exactly has she done while prime to justify that claim? Killing featless fodder alongside Luke doesn't remotely imply any parity between the two.

Whether or not the quote itself came from Luke is irrelevant since it's still subjective.

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kbroskywalker

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@slayne:

What exactly has she done while prime to justify that claim? Killing featless fodder alongside Luke doesn't remotely imply any parity between the two.

On its own it doesn't, but when we have the uncontradicted opinion of luke himself, jaina, and then then jaina performing on the same level, not just vs fodder, but vs the same hindered versions of abeloth, trying to deem it invalid because of comparisons from when jaina hadn't acheived her prime is ridiculous. There's nothing you've presented that invalidates luke's statement and them performing on the same level reinforces it.

Whether or not the quote itself came from Luke is irrelevant since it's still subjective.

A quote being subjective doesn't invalidate it by itself, especially when its luke, someone who should have in depth knowledge of jaina, has fought alongside jaina, and would be aware of both his and her capablities. And its supported by how jaina is performing on the same level as luke vs the same opponents. Right now the only thing you've presented as evidence for it is comparisons involving a different version of jaina then the one this quote applies to. Untill you can gice me a valid reason or context which invalidates the quote, the quote stands, especially with the supplementary evidence provided

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AmethystGravity

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@kbroskywalker: Wow! I like the arguments you've been proposing, especially with all the unfortunate comparisons people keep making between Jaina and Caedus. It'd be like saying RotS Anakin can get one-shotted by Dooku's lightning, since that happened in AotC.

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kbroskywalker

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@kbroskywalker: Wow! I like the arguments you've been proposing, especially with all the unfortunate comparisons people keep making between Jaina and Caedus. It'd be like saying RotS Anakin can get one-shotted by Dooku's lightning, since that happened in AotC.

guess you could say I'm the....

"sword of jaina"

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Greysentinel365

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slayne

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@kbroskywalker:

uncontradicted opinion of luke himself, jaina

It's contradicted by accolades, feats and other quotes, some of which are shown below.

but vs the same hindered versions of abeloth

Abeloth fingerflicked them both; not sure what you're trying to say here.

There's nothing you've presented that invalidates luke's statement

Luke's feats are leagues better than Jaina's. He's reacted to threats in nanoseconds, nearly moved faster than Caedus could see, manipulated black holes, one-shot a Vong slayer, beat Unu'Thul in a TP battle; I could go on for hours. The point is, Luke is light years ahead of Jaina as a combatant, and a subjective quote won't change that.

Her inferiority to Luke is even stated multiple times in the NJO: (Credit to Wollf for the RT)

She'd press hard, put him on the defensive... and then realize the degree to which his superior skill was turning her lunges into awkward, off-balance, losing strategies.

-- New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream

He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought. In fact, Luke didn't seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded-but they had little time to reflect.

-- New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force

So far, she hasn't done anything remotely close to what Luke can do.

A quote being subjective doesn't invalidate it by itself, especially when its luke, someone who should have in depth knowledge of jaina, has fought alongside jaina, and would be aware of both his and her capablities. And its supported by how jaina is performing on the same level as luke vs the same opponents. Right now the only thing you've presented as evidence for it is comparisons involving a different version of jaina then the one this quote applies to. Untill you can gice me a valid reason or context which invalidates the quote, the quote stands, especially with the supplementary evidence provided

Luke's quote is contradicted by a multitude of feats and accolades which were shown above. Killing fodder as fast as Luke doesn't show any parity between the two, and neither does Abeloth curbing them both.

As for the "Jaina was pre-prime" argument, she couldn't grow to that level of power, let alone surpass Caedus, in a mere four years. The only one who has ever come close to experiencing such a power growth was Anakin; who was literally birthed by the Force.

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kbroskywalker

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Edited By kbroskywalker

@slayne:

As for the "Jaina was pre-prime" argument, she couldn't grow to that level of power, let alone surpass Caedus, in a mere four years. The only one who has ever come close to experiencing such a power growth was Anakin; who was literally birthed by the Force.

This seems to be the main reasoning for your stance but frankly its not a very good imo. This is an appeal to incredulity where you're rejecting unrefuted evidence due to your own speculation. She very clearly DID grow to that level based on everything that's been presented. You can argue its bad writing or illogical, but that doesn't change what has actually been written and potrayed. She is on luke's level, she did grow to that extent. She did surpass caedus. That is unless you can provide any evidence that is relevant to FOTJ Jaina or FOTJ Luke.

It's contradicted by accolades, feats and other quotes, some of which are shown below.

None of these apply to the versions of luke and jaina being compared here, so they don't contradict the presented evidence.

Luke's quote is contradicted by a multitude of feats and accolades which were shown above.

Nope. Its not as of FOTJ, so it doesn't have any bearing on whats been presented as of FOTJ

Killing fodder as fast as Luke doesn't show any parity between the two,

On its own it doesn't, but this isn't being used as the only evidence, its supplementary evidence for quotes which on their own you have failed to provide relevant contradictory evidence to. The quote from luke is suffecient, everything else being provided here is just extra.

and neither does Abeloth curbing them both.

Jaina being able to stop herself to a degree from a force attack from someone who oneshotted luke while herself hindered is incredibly impressive. And yes abeloth was injured, that same injured abeloth was able to oneshot luke with her lightning. And yet again this is just extra, its not remotely crucial to the argument here which already has more than enough supporting it.

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noobsnowman

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@slayne:

nearly moved faster than Caedus could see

Source?

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ShootingNova

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Wasn't Luke still exiled at the time of the quote about Jaina equaling anyone else in the Order? Doesn't make that much sense for Jaina to grow so much when she admitted inferiority to all the members of the Council in LotF, IIRC.

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TheVivas

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All I see is a bunch of reaching.

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AmethystGravity

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Wasn't Luke still exiled at the time of the quote about Jaina equaling anyone else in the Order? Doesn't make that much sense for Jaina to grow so much when she admitted inferiority to all the members of the Council in LotF, IIRC.

Well, I don't recall the exact status of Luke, but he was fighting with the Jedi strike team in the temple, and Daala was definitely not Chief of State, so I'm not sure. Afterwards, Luke even joins the Jedi Council when discussing how they would finally defeat Abeloth while she was on Pinnacle Plaza.

Also, did Jaina really admit inferiority (combatively, that is) to Cilghal, the Solusars, and others? It's not that those Jedi Masters aren't all impressive on their own, but it seemed to me that by Invincible, aside from Luke, Jaina was pretty much the only go-to option for trying to take down Caedus.

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kbroskywalker

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Wasn't Luke still exiled at the time of the quote about Jaina equaling anyone else in the Order? Doesn't make that much sense for Jaina to grow so much when she admitted inferiority to all the members of the Council in LotF, IIRC.

that would change things @amethystgravity

source for the second quote?

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AmethystGravity

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Edited By AmethystGravity

@kbroskywalker: Well, the quote is from Apocalypse, and Luke had rejoined most of the Jedi in Ascension to fight Abeloth on some planet where a volcano erupted, so I think he technically rejoined the Order. Besides, in the context of the quote, it specifically mentions how Luke and Corran count as two Jedi masters, so it seems somewhat implicit that Luke is part of the Order.

Also, on a sort of unrelated note, why do people call the Sith sabers on Ziost fodder? Yes, Luke and Jaina fodderized them, but A: They were chosen to ambush Luke and his team, and B: Captain (I forgot her name; Tola, maybe?) told Abeloth that they were their "best sith sabers" or something along those lines in Ascension. Sure, she could have been lying, but A: it makes sense that the best sabers were chosen, and B: why would anyone in their right mind try to lie to Abeloth?

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kbroskywalker

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@amethystgravity:

Well, the quote is from Apocalypse, and Luke had rejoined most of the Jedi in Ascension to fight Abeloth on some planet where a volcano erupted, so I think he technically rejoined the Order. Besides, in the context of the quote, it specifically mentions how Luke and Corran count as two Jedi masters, so it seems somewhat implicit that Luke is part of the Order.

Good point

still might as well check, @bigsambino87@wollfmyth209, do you know when luke rejoined the order from exile?

Also, on a sort of unrelated note, why do people call the Sith sabers on Ziost fodder? Yes, Luke and Jaina fodderized them, but A: They were chosen to ambush Luke and his team, and B: Captain (I forgot her name; Tola, maybe?) told Abeloth that they were their "best sith sabers" or something along those lines in Ascension. Sure, she could have been lying, but A: it makes sense that the best sabers were chosen, and B: why would anyone in their right mind try to lie to Abeloth?

Well they are fodder to the two characters being compared here

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slayne

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@noobsnowman:

In a motion almost too swift for Jacen's eyes to follow, Luke slit the throat of Shimrra's amphistaff.

--New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force

Granted, this was pre-FotJ Jacen, but it's an excellent feat nonetheless.

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noobsnowman

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Edited By noobsnowman

@slayne: Jacen was dead in FotJ, and NJO Jacen was not even at his peak, so it's not surprising for Luke to be significantly superior to Jacen's NJO self. As Caedus, he grew considerably in power and was approaching to Luke in strength. Not sure whether I can say the same for Luke between NJO and LotF, though.

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ShootingNova

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@amethystgravity: Right, but it begs the question of whether Luke was officially in the Order. And yes, Jaina admitted inferiority to the Council in both the Force and with a blade, IIRC, suggesting that she go after Caedus on account of personal advantages.

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kbroskywalker

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@amethystgravity: Right, but it begs the question of whether Luke was officially in the Order. And yes, Jaina admitted inferiority to the Council in both the Force and with a blade, IIRC, suggesting that she go after Caedus on account of personal advantages.

Well the quote does refer to luke and horn("the two jedi masters") along with the statement.

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kbroskywalker

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AmethystGravity

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@kbroskywalker: The quote about Jaina being anyone in the order's combat equal is in Apocalypse, the last book in the series.

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kbroskywalker

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@kbroskywalker: I know; I just checked the timeline inside the cover of Apocalypse. I thought it was three, but I guessed I mixed up the numbers!

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Edited By kbroskywalker

@kbroskywalker: I know; I just checked the timeline inside the cover of Apocalypse. I thought it was three, but I guessed I mixed up the numbers!

that much growth in two years(going from caedus ragdoll fodder to being well above caedus) is hard to believe tbh

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