There was offscreen time of Maul fighting the duo.
Qui-gon is also usually considered to be about as strong as ep2 Kenobi and in his first duel with Maul he could barely stand after the rescued him. because he was so tired yet Maul was fine.
He drove anakin back, staggered anakin with kicks, picked up and threw kenobi, and nearly kicked kenobi off the platform they were on. On the other hand the duo landed no hits whatsoever on Dooku, Dooku was winning.
If you want to got by the point system you could say Dooku was "winning" but it seems pretty clear he was being pushed back and was would eventually lose if there were no outside forces to interrupt them.
You know Oppress grunted when he fought Adi Galia, Ventress growled when she fought luminara, and Anakin growled/grunted he faced ventress. The grunters/growlers in question all won the aforementioned fights. Grunting doesn't=losing, Dooku was clearly winning and him grunting doesn't change that.
Oppress and Anakin were the ones in control of their fights, and Ventress use the environment to help her beat Luminara. Dooku was being pushed backed and grunted in frustration. It's not like he was grunting while battering his opponents back.
Considering how pre prime kenobi fared vs opress(outclasses tpm kenobi) + mau(outclasses qui gon), nah, not really.
I think you underestimate Qui-gon. He was one of the best masters in the order. He would be just below TCW Kenobi.
I've set the video to 2:45, if you just click the setting button and set the speed to .25 You'll see that Maul initiates his use of the force before kenobi turns around.
This image takes place after maul initiates his force grip at 2:45 and this is when Kenobi turns around. Clearly Maul turned Kenobi around as he was facing opress.
Kenobi is almost completely facing Maul in that frame. The only thing that is turned are his shoulders which could be because he was about to swing at Maul.
Also there is this.
Here is an example of how strong Maul and Savage can be, and Maul and prime Kenbi should even be stronger together.
Vader should have had his force wall up vs ezra and kanan and vader has precog, so obviously ezra and kanan can tk vader, right?
Vader was underestimating his opponents and force pushing someone is easier than ragdolling someone.
When Maul force pushed Kenobi look how far Kenobi flies back. Way further than Vader flew back, and way further than Dooku pushed Kenobi back.
Kenobi was amped in a way that the kenobi dooku faced can amp himself up at will to the point that:
Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.
I don't really see how the descriptive language proves Kenobi can amp himself.
Even if ventress was amped Kenobi+Anakin were facing her and she still ragdolled them:
That was a desperation amp, same as Savage's. Mual wasn't desperate.
Dooku's showing here utterly outclasses Maul's and trying to use it to say the're on even ground in terms of tk is ridiculous.
How is Dooku tking Kenobi not comparable to Maul tking him? You can say it's a little more impressive because Kenobi was a little more experienced when fighting Dooku, but he wasn't on a completely different level from when he fought Maul.
Picking up and throwing someone is unarmed combat, as is kicking.
That's not what I meant. I meant doing anything while holding a weapons isn't really unarmed combat.
Also here is Maul taking down Grievous with a tackle.
Anakin vs Kenobi was almost an exclusive showcase in dueling, so unless its specified anywhere that Anakin was hindered in terms of force power exclusively(Its actually never explicitly stated he was hindered in force power at all, though its pretty apparent considering anakin is significantly more powerful than KenobI), its baseless to say Anakin was only hindered via force.
So there is no proof Anakin was hindered besides Kenobi fought well against him? That sounds unfair to Kenobi to me.
I'm pretty sure in an interview on ep 3 someone even said Anakin got stronger after turning to the dark side.
And much of them being equal was due to knowing each other's fighting style so well. Considering Kenobi taught Anakin, Kenobi has a circumstantial edge here;
I agree with this, but Anankin should also know Kenobi's style.
There's no reason whatsoever the following quotes only apply to force power:
Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.
It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
And considering Kenobi never attacked anakin via force this has to refer to dueling:
He was more interested in killing me than defending himself
-Kenobi himself
Yes I agree Anakin was overconfident and focused more on attack than defense and that contributed to his loss, but there is no hint his power,speed, or skill were worse than normal, just his decision making skills.
That duo beat dooku after Anakin got amped in the same way rotj luke beat Vader. He did fine vs both when anakin wasn't rage amped
He only fought both of them for about 10 seconds. It seems like he was focusing on trying to get Kenobi out of the fight. He probably knew he would have a lot of trouble against both at once and he was focused on Anakin.
He lost circumstantially as maul circumstantially lost to tpm kenobi, and vader lost circumstantially to luke.
Maul's loss was the most circumstantial though due to him not actual even fighting when he lost. Vader and Dooku were in mid combat fighting their opponent. Though I agree it is somewhat circumstantial, I think Anakin would of won anyways. His amp made him defeat Dooku with ease. Without his amp he would win in a hard fought battle.
Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.
At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.
None of these say how much Sidious was holding back. It just says they wanted to show off how strong he was, and they did just that. Also the second quote implies that Sidious could only easily beat Maul with the force.
If you think that yoda holding back vs dooku is arguable, that doesn't help your case at all and helps mine, so I'll let you decide what you want to do with that.
There isn't proof Yoda was holding back saberwise against Dooku just like their isn't proof Sidious didn't get pushed by Maul saberwise after Savage's death. It seems pretty clear that after Savage died the atmosphere changed from Sidious messing around to him taking it serious. There was no more laughing and dancing around his opponent.
Although Opress escapes, he displeases Dooku, leading to brutal combat. Then Ventress strikes. Unable to best the powerful Dooku, the two escape...
This quote completely contradicts the show. Dooku is the one who ran from the duo. Ventress only ran when it was a 1v1 and Savage never ran. He was going after them but was stopped by Kenobi and Anakin.
Oh and then when facing kenobi and ankin in rots he beat an opponent more powerful than oppress and ventress(Kenobi) via force despite being pressed by someone way superior to either(Anakin) before stalemating Anakin(who is>maul) before Anakin got circumstantially amped.
The only reason he was able to take Kenobi out was the environment. If there was nothing to drop on Kenob, Kenobi would of most likely rejoined the fight.
Well dooku beat that duo so...
No he didn't he was being pushed back by them and ran.
Dooku was even losing his 1v1 with Anakin before resorting to lighting.
There is no way Dooku would of kept this up much longer, especially since this was later in the sereis and Anakin should be even stronger and he had Kenobi for backup.
Also lets not forget Maul was able to fight Mace and Aayla secura at the same time and landed a kick on Aayla. He even welcomed the challenge. Mace is at least Dooku's level.
Maul reacted to the explosion better than Mace. Mace even end up up on the ground knocked out. If Maul didn't have to run he could of killed him.
If Maul is good enough to hold his own against Mace while another jedi knight is attacking him at the same time, if you add in Kenobi who is at least around the same level as Maul, Dooku will get overwhelmed.
The vast majority of that duel was spent fighting 1 v 1,
He fought both of them at once for over a minute. Then he proceeded to fight and beet Qui-gon and then fight and beat Obi-wan. Do you know how tired that would make someone?
not that it matters considering how dooku fought a far superior duo and was winning(and it was a 1 v 2 almost exclusively)
I wouldn't say he was winning but he was doing very good. However he wouldn't' of lasted much longer. He even grunts int frustration when the pikes show up. He would of eventually of been worn down by the team.
Maul's best showings are vs pre prime kenobi, and grevious.
I would argue Maul's feat of taking on Qui-gon and Obi-wan at the same time is just as if not more impressive than fighting pre prime Kenobi, and it's definitely more impressive than fighting Grievous.
Both feats were vs opponents who were holding back(and sidious to a much higher degree), so no, thats not at all their best showings.
Can you prove how much they were holding back, if at all, and that Sidious was holding back more than Yoda?
Dooku's are vs a pre prime anakin+pre prime kenobi and prime anakin+prime kenobi
In ROTS all Dooku did was TK Kenobi and then get steam rolled by Anakin. His duel with them in the clone wars was pretty good but I'm not sure that's as good as holding off Yoda.
Anakin was unable to focus, that hinders dueling.
Do you have an official source that says Anakin's saber combat was hindered? Yoda sent Kenobi after Anakin because the emperor was too strong for him, implying that Anakin wasn't. Yoda wouldn't send Kenobi on a suicide mission, he was confident in Kenobi's skills.
Anakin "steamrolled" dooku because sidious amped him:
"Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene. "Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!" Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?
That quote has Sidious telling Anakin to kill Dooku. Was this while they were fighting? Because in the movie Sidious only told Anakin to kill Dooku after the fight was over, making anything Sidious said irrelevant to why Anakin won.
Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily.
Revenge of the Sith
He met it for about 10 seconds, lol.
He had trouble with kenobi and someone superior to maul or kenobi when he was trying not to kill the one >maul or kenobi:
He also died.
Maul has circumstantially used the force on a featless(in terms of force defense) kenobi.
I wouldn't really call these circumstantial. Maul can TK Kenobi just like Dooku, they are on even ground.
Kenobi wasn't near his prime hear, but Maul wasn't in his prime either.You say Kenobi was facing Savage when this happened but it's hard to tell and Kenobi has pre cog. Not to mention he should have his force wall up at all times and he couldn't get out of the hold.I know you say Maul was amped here but I could say Kenobi was as well. Even if he was amped Kenobi was facing him and ready for it but was blasted back extremely far.
And that stronger body sure has done wonders for Kenobi, its not like dooku has always had the edge in unarmed combat when they've fought...
That's not really unarmed combat, it's implementing strikes and throws into dulling, something Dooku can do because of his skill.
And I think grevious and Anakin also qualify as stronger bodies...
Anakin beat Dooku and Grievous isn't nearly as skilled as Dooku and relies more on fast hand movements and coming at different directions instead of strength.
Well its not like Kenobi floored maul with a single kick and opress drove both kenobi and anakin back...
Maul was barely knocked down if at all and he was still getting used to his new legs. Also a solid kick the body is a much stronger move than a ligtsaber swing that gets blocked. Dooku was literally sent flying off his feat.
Opress is physically stronger than Kenobi and Anakin so it makes sense for him to drive them back. He is one of the physically strongest characters of the time. I would say it's between him and Grievous.
and Dooku respects kenobi and thus would want to duel him, Maul's going to be the target via force.
Dooku also respects Maul and called him a great sith lord.
Actually considering maul is completely featless in force defense vs people who aren't complete fodder to dooku
Offensive and defensive force powers come from the same power source. Maul's TK feats translate to his overall force power which translates to his defense, which has only been broken by Sidious.
If Dooku could easily ragdoll people on Maul's level he would of done it to beat Savage and Ventress.
You mean like the superior duo in anakin and kenobi did?
Yes, that duo beat Dooku.
Anakin+ Kenobi/grevious disagree with you
Anakin and Kenobi beat Dooku and Grievous would lose to either Maul and Kenobi, and if they decided to abuse the force it wouldn't even be close.
And why exactly would dooku not just use the force again?
He was trying to use it against Savage and Ventress and it wasn't working too well. Maul+Kenobi>Savage+Ventress
Lets not forget how anakin and kenobi were having trouble with pre prime opress alone.
Opress' style surprised them plus he was amped. Dooku was having trouble even before the amp.
And Kenobi+ Anakin>Maul+Kenobi
late CW Anakin+Kenobi are probably about equal with prime Maul+Kenboi.
While Dooku is a formidable foe he is out of his depth fighting both of these warriors in their primes at the same time. Each one can give Dooku a run for his money on their own.
Dueling
Maul before he even reached his prime was fighting evenly and arguably even getting the better of Qui-gon and pre-prime Obi-wan at the same time. Qui-gon was one of the strongest members of the jedi order at that time and was taught by Dooku himself. Dooku had great respect for Qui-gon.
Dooku's best dueling feat imo is him holding off Yoda for about 20 seconds, which Maul has a similar feat of holding off Sidious for about 20 seconds.
Obi-wan is also an expert duelist and arguably better than Maul. He was able to quickly beat Grievous in their final duel and he was able to hold off Anakin until he finally managed to defeat him. Anakin steamrolled Dooku but he couldn't get past Kenobi's guard. Anakin was troubled and couldn't call on the force as well as normal but he was clearly dueling as good as he ever was.
It's pretty clear witch fight is more intense. Dooku is skilled but he is old and he would have trouble keeping up with opponents of this caliber even in a 1v1 let alone a 2v1.
Force
This is Dooku's best chance. He is the most knowledgeable of the 3 fighters here and he has taken out Kenobi with the force before (something Maul has also done). However Maul and Kenobi aren't slouches when it comes to the force either.
Strenght/durability
Maul and Kenobi are both younger and have stronger bodies than Dooku, especially Maul.
Kenobi has taken two hits to the skull and a kick to the chest from Maul over two seconds(1:16-1:18) taking a couple of moments to get up:
Maul has killed Jun-Fan(someone who according to yoda was unparraleled in hifs force combat skills and has easily defeated multiple wampas) with a single kick while being choked:
Thanks for pointing out how strong and durable Maul and Kenobi are.
Lets not forget how Dooku got floored by one swing from Savage who was stomped by Maul.
Conclusion
Dooku's best chance is to take one of them out with the force (it would most likely be Kenobi since he doesn't have any feats that prove he can rag doll Maul) but I think it's much more likely for the two warriors to pressure and overwhelm the Count. Dooku is skilled but Maul and Kenobi aren't far behind and he doesn't have the physical ability to take on both of them at once. Even if Dooku subdues one of them with the force the other one may still end up warring him down and defeating him.
Also lets not forget how Dooku was having trouble with Ventress and pre-prime Savage. Maul and Kenobi are a far more dangerous team than Ventress and pre-prime Savage.
Kenobi only fared so well because he was focused by Adi'd death. Under normal circumstances Kenobi would not have won.
I wouldn't even count that as a win. He got tk'd out of the battle. Maul's team lost an arm, Kenobi's team lost a person. I would count the fight as a win over Savage since he clearly would of died without Maul, but Maul's life never seemed to be in significant danger in the duel.
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