AlexTheBoss's comments

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Posted By AlexTheBoss

Some good arguments are made here, but like others have said, that list is questionable due to Vader being above Palpatine.

Dooku vs Maul is a close fight that could go either way, so if a canon source said Maul was above Dooku I would accept it, but Vader in the movie flat out said he couldn't beat Palpatine, George said Vader was 80% of Palpatine, and Palpatine was able to play with Maul and Savage at the same time while Vader had more trouble against Ashoka than Palpatine did against the superior duo. Pretty much all evidence points to Palpatine>Vader and that list having Vader above Palpatine discredits it.

But I won't say you are wrong about old Maul being able to beat Dooku in a duel, because nothing really flat out goes against that.

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Posted By AlexTheBoss
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Posted By AlexTheBoss

The issue here is that you put more thought into it than the movie maker.

So true. Supposedly they actually have a good team of writers for the upcoming movies and actually planned everything out this time.

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@nerevarine_11:

screaming Shia and Megan Fox asscrack shots and bad humour/cringeworthy scenes.

But those are the best parts!

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Posted By AlexTheBoss

Nice job.

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@kbroskywalker:

I've rewatched this fight a couple times now, there was not.

When the scene switches to Anakin and Padme and comes back to the Maul fight they are in a slight different location. It seems like there was at least a few seconds of off screen fighting.

A. consesus isn't an argument.

Thru but the consensus came from people making logical assumptions. Dooku was disappointed in ep 2 Kenobi and beat him pretty easily, yet Dooku respected Qui-gon.

B. Dooku utterly outclasses qui gon.

Of course. If he didn't this would be a massive stomp.

Dooku was steadily driving back Anakin while simultaneously parrying strikes from Kenobi, in no way was he being pushed back. Dooku ended up behind Anakin because Anakin rolled under dooku as he did a back flip and then their duel ended with Kenobi jumping snd sticking dooku with a strike that missed. Dooku was not forced back, Anakin was.

Dooku seemed to be on the defensive the entire fight.

Vague accolade is vague accolade. Luminara was one of the best masters of the order, she's still outclassed by kenobi/maul/dooku.

Qui-gon was most likely the third strongest jedi only due to Mace in Yoda during ep 1. Luminara probably barely makes the top 10.

That accolade doesn't at all prove qui gon is at the same level as tcw kenobi or near it, especially considering how tcw kenobi has fared vs a more powerful version of maul

Qui-gon was able to last a good time against Maul in their final duel though he was definitely below Maul. TCW Kenobi was about equal with Maul so his ep 2 counterpart should be a good deal below Maul.

Maul initiates the tk grip before the frame. In addition Kenobi has just incapped opress, Kenobi will be focused on finishing off opress.

Obi-wan would be focused on surviving, not killing.

ROTS Kenobi outclasses tcw kenobi who in terms of force defense is featless having ben tkd by the likes of ventress:

ROTS Kenobi on the other hand was able to break out of tk grips and deflect force blasts from mustafar Anakin

Good think ROTS Kenobi is on my team. And there is a good chance hindered Anakin still has more raw power than Dooku, so Obi-wan breaking out of his force grip shows he has a good chance of breaking out of Dooku's.

He drew on the Force, shoving Maul and Savage aside.Adi's lightsaber leapt into his hand as he ran for the outpost, then retreated with Hondo and his men into the safety of their lair.

I'm pretty sure that didn't happen in the show. Anything that flat out contradicts the main canon shouldn't be used.

So why would the dude who was able to easily tk Kenobi not easily tk maul?

Because Maul isn't Kenobi, and the best force defense feat Kenobi has is in his fight with Anakin which takes place after his duel with Dooku, which means end of ROTS Kenobi could very well be stronger and more skilled than beginning ROTS Kenobi,and this battle is using prime Kenobi.

Baseless, vader doesn't underestimate his opponents, thats part of what separates him from Anakin.

He underestimated Luke in ep5 and because of it Luke got a hit in.

As can barriss offee:

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As she can force push anakin, she can force push kenobi/maul, right?

As I said, force pushing is easier than ragdolling. Also Anakin was sent back like 5 feet. Maul sent Kenobi back like 100 feet and made the cave crumble.

I posted multiple quotes indicating anakin was hindered, your claim on the other hand that anakin was only hindered force wise is completely unsubstantiated.

Tbh there isn't even proof he was hindered force wise. I only say that because your state of mind has been shown to affect your force ability.

Kenobi taught Anakin, this favors him, not Anakin.

Anakin wasn't a kid anymore. He spared Kenobi hundreds of times, they both knew each other's style. Kenobi's advantage from being the teacher is minimal.

And not once do those quotes mention decision making.

"It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat

He was more interested in killing me than defending himself"

I would consider these mentioning his decision making skills. his overconfidence led to his bad decisions and he decided to focus on killing rather than defending.

there's nothing stopping him from snapping kenobi's neck, pulling him onto his lightsaber, ect.

There is no proof he can do that to prime Kenobi. there is a reason he did that to Tiplee and not Kenobi in son of Dathomire. If he could of taken out someone as strong and important as Kenobi like that he would of done it.

Fortunately for dooku he won't be facing anakin

Unfortunately for him he is facing the one who beat Anakin, plus another guy in his league.

So you're saying that yoda legtimately contended with yoda? If you genuinely believe dooku contended with yoda then I have no clue why you're trying to argue dooku can lose this when yoda utterly outclasses the duo dooku is pitted against.

ROTS Kenobi and Maul could easily contend with Yoda together in a lightsaber only duel.

No it doesn't, dooku indesputably was beating ventress+opress before opress got rage amped

I was talking about the part where it said Opress ran away. He clearly didn't run away so that part of the quote contradicts the show.

No, no he wasn't, re watch the fight:

Anakin seemed to pretty clearly have the advantage for the most part. Dooku was only doing so well because he was using the force to try and hold Anakin off. Even with it Anakin was breaking through Dooku's defense.

Yes, I agree Dooku may of been holding back from killing Anakin, but he was still being pushed pretty good.

The explosion was aimed at the jedi. Are you trying to argue for maul's speed here?

The explosion went off near all of them. It shows Maul has good reaction time and speed. His and Kenobi's speed are both at least around on par with Dooku's and together should overwhelm him.

How the fight will go down.

The fight will go down with Maul coming at Dooku pushing him back. Kenobi will also join in being less aggressive than Maul, but also being more precise and calculating the best move. Dooku may try and tk one of them or push one of them back but they will keep up the pressure making it hard for Dooku to capitalize on his superiority in the force. This is when Dooku's age will catch up to him and he will start to be worn down. He is just barely keeping the warriors at bay and his arms are becoming tired and harder to move. This is where Kenobi who was patiently looking for the best time to strike slashes Dooku where he just barely left himself open. In pain and distracted Maul goes in for the finishing move taking the Count's head off.

Conculsion

Dooku's saber skills are impressive, but he clearly wouldn't be able to take a majority over these two at once in a duel. Obi-wan defeated the man Dooku couldn't, and Maul defeated Dooku's apprentice and his apprentice's apprentice at the same time and even Sidous considered Maul a rival.

In the force Dooku has the most knowledge and power, but Maul is also up there in pure power and Obi-wan isn't shabby himself. Dooku won't even get a chance to use the force to much due to Maul's offensive style.

Dooku will be pushed until he makes a mistake and the team will finish him off.

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Posted By AlexTheBoss

@kbroskywalker:

There was offscreen time of Maul fighting the duo.

Qui-gon is also usually considered to be about as strong as ep2 Kenobi and in his first duel with Maul he could barely stand after the rescued him. because he was so tired yet Maul was fine.

He drove anakin back, staggered anakin with kicks, picked up and threw kenobi, and nearly kicked kenobi off the platform they were on. On the other hand the duo landed no hits whatsoever on Dooku, Dooku was winning.

If you want to got by the point system you could say Dooku was "winning" but it seems pretty clear he was being pushed back and was would eventually lose if there were no outside forces to interrupt them.

You know Oppress grunted when he fought Adi Galia, Ventress growled when she fought luminara, and Anakin growled/grunted he faced ventress. The grunters/growlers in question all won the aforementioned fights. Grunting doesn't=losing, Dooku was clearly winning and him grunting doesn't change that.

Oppress and Anakin were the ones in control of their fights, and Ventress use the environment to help her beat Luminara. Dooku was being pushed backed and grunted in frustration. It's not like he was grunting while battering his opponents back.

Considering how pre prime kenobi fared vs opress(outclasses tpm kenobi) + mau(outclasses qui gon), nah, not really.

I think you underestimate Qui-gon. He was one of the best masters in the order. He would be just below TCW Kenobi.

I've set the video to 2:45, if you just click the setting button and set the speed to .25 You'll see that Maul initiates his use of the force before kenobi turns around.

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This image takes place after maul initiates his force grip at 2:45 and this is when Kenobi turns around. Clearly Maul turned Kenobi around as he was facing opress.

Kenobi is almost completely facing Maul in that frame. The only thing that is turned are his shoulders which could be because he was about to swing at Maul.

Also there is this.

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Here is an example of how strong Maul and Savage can be, and Maul and prime Kenbi should even be stronger together.

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Vader should have had his force wall up vs ezra and kanan and vader has precog, so obviously ezra and kanan can tk vader, right?

Vader was underestimating his opponents and force pushing someone is easier than ragdolling someone.

When Maul force pushed Kenobi look how far Kenobi flies back. Way further than Vader flew back, and way further than Dooku pushed Kenobi back.

Kenobi was amped in a way that the kenobi dooku faced can amp himself up at will to the point that:

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

I don't really see how the descriptive language proves Kenobi can amp himself.

Even if ventress was amped Kenobi+Anakin were facing her and she still ragdolled them:

That was a desperation amp, same as Savage's. Mual wasn't desperate.

Dooku's showing here utterly outclasses Maul's and trying to use it to say the're on even ground in terms of tk is ridiculous.

How is Dooku tking Kenobi not comparable to Maul tking him? You can say it's a little more impressive because Kenobi was a little more experienced when fighting Dooku, but he wasn't on a completely different level from when he fought Maul.

Picking up and throwing someone is unarmed combat, as is kicking.

That's not what I meant. I meant doing anything while holding a weapons isn't really unarmed combat.

Also here is Maul taking down Grievous with a tackle.

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Anakin vs Kenobi was almost an exclusive showcase in dueling, so unless its specified anywhere that Anakin was hindered in terms of force power exclusively(Its actually never explicitly stated he was hindered in force power at all, though its pretty apparent considering anakin is significantly more powerful than KenobI), its baseless to say Anakin was only hindered via force.

So there is no proof Anakin was hindered besides Kenobi fought well against him? That sounds unfair to Kenobi to me.

I'm pretty sure in an interview on ep 3 someone even said Anakin got stronger after turning to the dark side.

And much of them being equal was due to knowing each other's fighting style so well. Considering Kenobi taught Anakin, Kenobi has a circumstantial edge here;

I agree with this, but Anankin should also know Kenobi's style.

There's no reason whatsoever the following quotes only apply to force power:

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

And considering Kenobi never attacked anakin via force this has to refer to dueling:

He was more interested in killing me than defending himself

-Kenobi himself

Yes I agree Anakin was overconfident and focused more on attack than defense and that contributed to his loss, but there is no hint his power,speed, or skill were worse than normal, just his decision making skills.

That duo beat dooku after Anakin got amped in the same way rotj luke beat Vader. He did fine vs both when anakin wasn't rage amped

He only fought both of them for about 10 seconds. It seems like he was focusing on trying to get Kenobi out of the fight. He probably knew he would have a lot of trouble against both at once and he was focused on Anakin.

He lost circumstantially as maul circumstantially lost to tpm kenobi, and vader lost circumstantially to luke.

Maul's loss was the most circumstantial though due to him not actual even fighting when he lost. Vader and Dooku were in mid combat fighting their opponent. Though I agree it is somewhat circumstantial, I think Anakin would of won anyways. His amp made him defeat Dooku with ease. Without his amp he would win in a hard fought battle.

Dave Filoni: Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.

None of these say how much Sidious was holding back. It just says they wanted to show off how strong he was, and they did just that. Also the second quote implies that Sidious could only easily beat Maul with the force.

If you think that yoda holding back vs dooku is arguable, that doesn't help your case at all and helps mine, so I'll let you decide what you want to do with that.

There isn't proof Yoda was holding back saberwise against Dooku just like their isn't proof Sidious didn't get pushed by Maul saberwise after Savage's death. It seems pretty clear that after Savage died the atmosphere changed from Sidious messing around to him taking it serious. There was no more laughing and dancing around his opponent.

Although Opress escapes, he displeases Dooku, leading to brutal combat. Then Ventress strikes. Unable to best the powerful Dooku, the two escape...

This quote completely contradicts the show. Dooku is the one who ran from the duo. Ventress only ran when it was a 1v1 and Savage never ran. He was going after them but was stopped by Kenobi and Anakin.

Oh and then when facing kenobi and ankin in rots he beat an opponent more powerful than oppress and ventress(Kenobi) via force despite being pressed by someone way superior to either(Anakin) before stalemating Anakin(who is>maul) before Anakin got circumstantially amped.

The only reason he was able to take Kenobi out was the environment. If there was nothing to drop on Kenob, Kenobi would of most likely rejoined the fight.

Well dooku beat that duo so...

No he didn't he was being pushed back by them and ran.

Dooku was even losing his 1v1 with Anakin before resorting to lighting.

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There is no way Dooku would of kept this up much longer, especially since this was later in the sereis and Anakin should be even stronger and he had Kenobi for backup.

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Also lets not forget Maul was able to fight Mace and Aayla secura at the same time and landed a kick on Aayla. He even welcomed the challenge. Mace is at least Dooku's level.

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Maul reacted to the explosion better than Mace.  Mace even end up up on the ground knocked out.  If Maul didn't have to run he could of killed him.
Maul reacted to the explosion better than Mace. Mace even end up up on the ground knocked out. If Maul didn't have to run he could of killed him.

If Maul is good enough to hold his own against Mace while another jedi knight is attacking him at the same time, if you add in Kenobi who is at least around the same level as Maul, Dooku will get overwhelmed.

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Posted By AlexTheBoss

@kbroskywalker: No my notifications started working again. I heard other people were having the same problem, they must have fixed it.

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@kbroskywalker:

The vast majority of that duel was spent fighting 1 v 1,

He fought both of them at once for over a minute. Then he proceeded to fight and beet Qui-gon and then fight and beat Obi-wan. Do you know how tired that would make someone?

not that it matters considering how dooku fought a far superior duo and was winning(and it was a 1 v 2 almost exclusively)

I wouldn't say he was winning but he was doing very good. However he wouldn't' of lasted much longer. He even grunts int frustration when the pikes show up. He would of eventually of been worn down by the team.

Maul's best showings are vs pre prime kenobi, and grevious.

I would argue Maul's feat of taking on Qui-gon and Obi-wan at the same time is just as if not more impressive than fighting pre prime Kenobi, and it's definitely more impressive than fighting Grievous.

Both feats were vs opponents who were holding back(and sidious to a much higher degree), so no, thats not at all their best showings.

Can you prove how much they were holding back, if at all, and that Sidious was holding back more than Yoda?

Dooku's are vs a pre prime anakin+pre prime kenobi and prime anakin+prime kenobi

In ROTS all Dooku did was TK Kenobi and then get steam rolled by Anakin. His duel with them in the clone wars was pretty good but I'm not sure that's as good as holding off Yoda.

Anakin was unable to focus, that hinders dueling.

Do you have an official source that says Anakin's saber combat was hindered? Yoda sent Kenobi after Anakin because the emperor was too strong for him, implying that Anakin wasn't. Yoda wouldn't send Kenobi on a suicide mission, he was confident in Kenobi's skills.

Anakin "steamrolled" dooku because sidious amped him:

"Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene. "Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!" Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

That quote has Sidious telling Anakin to kill Dooku. Was this while they were fighting? Because in the movie Sidious only told Anakin to kill Dooku after the fight was over, making anything Sidious said irrelevant to why Anakin won.

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily.

Revenge of the Sith

He met it for about 10 seconds, lol.

He had trouble with kenobi and someone superior to maul or kenobi when he was trying not to kill the one >maul or kenobi:

He also died.

Maul has circumstantially used the force on a featless(in terms of force defense) kenobi.

I wouldn't really call these circumstantial. Maul can TK Kenobi just like Dooku, they are on even ground.

Kenobi wasn't near his prime hear, but Maul wasn't in his prime either.
Kenobi wasn't near his prime hear, but Maul wasn't in his prime either.
You say Kenobi was facing Savage when this happened but it's hard to tell and Kenobi has pre cog.  Not to mention he should have his force wall up at all times and he couldn't get out of the hold.
You say Kenobi was facing Savage when this happened but it's hard to tell and Kenobi has pre cog. Not to mention he should have his force wall up at all times and he couldn't get out of the hold.
I know you say Maul was amped here but I could say Kenobi was as well.  Even if he was amped Kenobi was facing him and ready for it but was blasted back extremely far.
I know you say Maul was amped here but I could say Kenobi was as well. Even if he was amped Kenobi was facing him and ready for it but was blasted back extremely far.

And that stronger body sure has done wonders for Kenobi, its not like dooku has always had the edge in unarmed combat when they've fought...

That's not really unarmed combat, it's implementing strikes and throws into dulling, something Dooku can do because of his skill.

And I think grevious and Anakin also qualify as stronger bodies...

Anakin beat Dooku and Grievous isn't nearly as skilled as Dooku and relies more on fast hand movements and coming at different directions instead of strength.

Well its not like Kenobi floored maul with a single kick and opress drove both kenobi and anakin back...

Maul was barely knocked down if at all and he was still getting used to his new legs. Also a solid kick the body is a much stronger move than a ligtsaber swing that gets blocked. Dooku was literally sent flying off his feat.

Opress is physically stronger than Kenobi and Anakin so it makes sense for him to drive them back. He is one of the physically strongest characters of the time. I would say it's between him and Grievous.

Oh wait.

Opress>Kenobi+anakin>kenobi>maul>opress? Something seems's wrong here...

In terms of just physical strength

Opress>Maul>Anakin>Kenobi>Dooku

and Dooku respects kenobi and thus would want to duel him, Maul's going to be the target via force.

Dooku also respects Maul and called him a great sith lord.

Actually considering maul is completely featless in force defense vs people who aren't complete fodder to dooku

Offensive and defensive force powers come from the same power source. Maul's TK feats translate to his overall force power which translates to his defense, which has only been broken by Sidious.

If Dooku could easily ragdoll people on Maul's level he would of done it to beat Savage and Ventress.

You mean like the superior duo in anakin and kenobi did?

Yes, that duo beat Dooku.

Anakin+ Kenobi/grevious disagree with you

Anakin and Kenobi beat Dooku and Grievous would lose to either Maul and Kenobi, and if they decided to abuse the force it wouldn't even be close.

And why exactly would dooku not just use the force again?

He was trying to use it against Savage and Ventress and it wasn't working too well. Maul+Kenobi>Savage+Ventress

Lets not forget how anakin and kenobi were having trouble with pre prime opress alone.

Opress' style surprised them plus he was amped. Dooku was having trouble even before the amp.

And Kenobi+ Anakin>Maul+Kenobi

late CW Anakin+Kenobi are probably about equal with prime Maul+Kenboi.