Honest post! Thumbs up!

Well that didn't last long.

@evilvegeta74: I appreciate it. I know I'll be bothering some people, but as you note, I am simply trying to be honest.

It was indeed a short chapter. But I'll strive to emphasize that I've moved on to a new chapter, not gone back to the one before it.

And there will definitely be changes in my behavior/writing about them, make no mistake.

@akbogert: My question then is whether or not you care what happens to X-23 in that book I won't mention by title anymore. As you've already put it, no matter what the outcome, her character is pretty much ruined for at least a good while, unless something truly mind blowing happens at the end. But since you're so sure that you favorite character is going to be destroyed, why move on so quickly unless whatever happens to her won't affect you? Doesn't make sense to put in your last two quarters this early, if once that book ends and Laura is ruined you'll be taking them out again.

And you did a great job at it!

@ravager4: Like you point out, I have already come to grips with Laura's loss. She's already dead in my mind -- not in an ongoing series.

The fact that I've identified that truth and still have a desire to read suggests that no, it doesn't affect me as strongly as I expected it to. I think it's perfectly fair to question how or why that's true, but insomuch as it is true, there's no sense pretending otherwise.

It doesn't matter how much people complain, how many petitions or twitter rants type up, in the end if you give it money it will grow and it will spread.

@akbogert: Well, I guess I go back to being the lonely, character-attached extremist again. Maybe it's because I'm a writer that characters mean so much to me, I don't know... but either way, when someone kicks shit in my face, I don't generally keep coming back for more, especially when I know they'll happily do it again.

@jonny_anonymous: Yeah, that's the thing. It doesn't matter what you say or how you feel. If you keep giving a company money, they'll keep doing the same thing. In the end it's all about the money for them. You'r deluding yourself if you think that if you speak up enough, things will change. The Simone thing was a rare exception, not even close to the rule, and there were things going on there behind the scenes that we don't know about. Big companies like that, Marvel as the prime example, do not care what you think, so long as they make money.

Take Peter Parker for example... I believe it was Slott who was joking about how, after SSM #9 came out, his days were numbered, and made light of how much it was going to piss fans off. Neither he nor Marvel cares about that. At all. People are buying it, so they're gonna continue to keep pissing in your oatmeal, all with a big grin on their faces while doing it.

@ravager4: Understandable. This isn't the first time you and I haven't seen eye to eye on things, and I'm sure it won't be the last. If you can be happy without Marvel in your life, then I'm happy for you. But after a couple days it became pretty clear to me that I was still going to be angry, I was still going to be upset, and because I already cared for a lot of Marvel characters, my boycotting the company wouldn't save me from pain when I found out what happened to them. I'd only be shielding myself from the good. The bad's going to get through regardless.

There's no way for me to stay in a vibrant comic community, getting daily news and updates and discussions about Marvel characters and stories, and not become bitter and resentful. And I don't want that, not if I can help it. At least staying a reader keeps me in the loop of the uplifting stuff the company does.

@jonny_anonymous said:

That is quite true. The question, really, is the antecedent to "it."

@akbogert: *shrug* and I get that, to an extent. Was just nice knowing I wasn't the only one of that particular mindset, and wasn't overreacting. While it lasted, anyway. I just hope that whatever "good" you find isn't eventually ruined like so much before it... even if that seems likely.

It does indeed. On the other hand I suppose I'm going to be trying not to get as attached as I let myself be before... and the loss of passion is definitely unfortunate. I liked being able to invest myself completely in characters. So while on the one hand I have less to lose, on the other I have less, period.

And honestly, I feel like it should bother Marvel to know that there are people who have strongly negative feelings about them that are/used to be big fans, and that the reason for the negativity is because they are fans. "Haters gonna hate," but I'd say what you have here is more a case of lovers being made to hate against their will. I know you said earlier you think it's delusional, and in the interest of honesty it could be. I have faith enough in myself that I will realize that's the case if it really is the case (hence the "If nothing else..." paragraph). But I'd rather have hope that things could be better, and at least give it a try, before truly throwing in the towel on something that has managed to deeply affect me even in so short a period of time.

What can I say? I'm a sucker for redemption stories.

@akbogert: I've had my hopes crushed too many times already *takes shot* sigh... I figured out a long time ago that these companies aren't going to redeem themselves (If they were going to, OMD would have been retconned by now, for example). But that's me. It's almost nostalgic seeing someone like yourself trying to hold on to what little hope they have left. Reminds me of me a year or two ago.

@ravager4: I suppose time will tell, my friend.

Meantime, next round's on me.

You know. A part of me, a little part of me, thinks this has no point to arguing and people are taking this too seriously, forgetting its only a comic. But then, This is all pretty fun, aint it, something good as happened out of all this crap writing! Nice blog!

Comic book fans have varying degrees of agency regarding things like this ---- and most of the time, it's not a very promising degree of agency. Marvel's Editor-In-Chief, for instance, has gone on record as stating that most of the unpopular decisions that fans complain about are still around because people are willing to pay money to read more material in that vein ---- basically, if you don't like it, don't buy it, but since sales are good enough despite the complaints, you must like it, right? But the thing about that kind of logic is that it doesn't work with all characters. Characters like Spider-Man and Batman are always going to enjoy sales that are far more solid in comparison to characters like, say, Moon Knight and Green Arrow, because they're extremely popular characters with large enough fanbases to ensure that sales will be decent even if a fairly sizable portion of readers stop reading. Dan Slott's smugness isn't so much the result of readers being fans of his writing, it's mostly because of the ridiculous disproportionate number of readers who are fans of Spider-Man and will follow him through thick and thin even if the writer turns him into a murdering jerkwad. It gives him a sense of security that most writers don't have. Gail Simone's case is slightly unique in that her fanbase has an extremely prominent online presence compared to most writers', and she had the support of numerous other writers from all over the industry who sided with her and publicly stated that they thought firing her was a stupid decision----- and additionally, I believe there were some backdoor DC politics involved as well.

Hopeless isn't as lucky as Slott or Simone. He doesn't have the security of writing a top-tier character --- with the exception of maybe X-23 thanks to her association with Wolverine and the X-Men, all the characters he's writing are culled from various titles like Runaways and Avengers Academy that have never been exceptionally popular, so the size of the fanbase isn't as big a factor. He's nowhere near as popular or well known as Simone is, either. So I suppose fan outrage could affect the title if editorial isn't firmly set on seeing it through no matter what. It's been advertised from day one as something that was going to have fans of these characters howling, so they simply might not care seeing as it seems the reactions are expected. I honestly wouldn't know what channels you could follow on this, because I've never done anything like this before. If I really hate a title or sense that it's going to be something I really hate, I just drop it then and there. I stopped reading Avengers Arena after Arcade blew up Mettle in the first issue ------ preferred not to see Hazmat and Finesse meet similarly pointless ends (is Finesse even in AA? Can't remember).

As for redemption stories ---- those titles that I dislike but don't completely hate, I hold on to for redemption. Stormwatch is pretty much the best example from the new 52. It took characters that I loved and butchered them beyond belief, and I was immensely frustrated at how badly Milligan was writing them. But I kept reading just to catch glimpses here and there of the characters I used to love, and it's sort of paid off now: DC finally realized what a trainwreck the title was, and gave it to Jim Starlin (someone whose writing is practically the industry standard for cosmic space adventures and the like) to reboot completely. Starlin's first two issues have been more engaging for me than the last 18 issues before it that Milligan and Cornell wrote. Same goes for Detective Comics; it started out boring as hell, but I kept reading and now it's in the very capable hands of John Layman.

I am still waiting for someone to kick Levitz and Nocenti of World's Finest and Catwoman respectively, however.

@citizenbane: Thanks for the input. I think you're quite right -- there are some situations which truly are hopeless, those "too big to fail" situations. Spider-Man may have a large devoted fanbase but he's got so many casual readers following him that it's unlikely that Marvel's decisions there will ever be undone by a protest. All that means to me is, sadly, I'll never get into Spider-Man, because he's too much of an emotional trap. Heck, even the Ultimate universe (which was my first exposure to Parker) wasn't safe for him, and that arguably has a smaller following.

You've brought up the best reasons for and against having optimism when it comes to Arena. Marvel's callousness seems particularly shocking. So the question becomes "what level of backlash did they anticipate, and is there a point we can take the outrage to where it will make them finally say fine, we'll back down?" One of the biggest problems for that series is that while there are a ton of angry people, there's no unified voice or direction. There were petitions here and there, a lot of angry blogs and letters, but it was all over the place and unconcerted. Many people were selfish (this was something I pointed out in my first CV blog, the one about not remaining silent) and basically said they were okay with the book as long as their favorite lived -- which means that a lot of people who could have rallied together and flat-out refused the series ended up fighting with each other instead.

So I'm not sure whether any protest could work to end that book, but I know for a fact it won't happen unless everyone with any stake in those characters works together and doesn't include a caveat in their denunciation of the book. Add to this the fans of the characters who have been willing to buy the book anyway (all the while -- and this blows my mind -- saying I was right and they too were upset), and you have a really crude justification for Marvel's behavior. They've found a way to not just touch a nerve but actively torture it, and get people to put up with it anyway.

Anyhow, best of luck seeing your favorites redeemed. I haven't heard anything good about Nocenti's Catwoman so I'm guessing that's your best shot :)

And P.S., Finesse isn't, but Reptil is.

This also reminds me of something sociology taught me. About rallying. But I locked mu notebook in a box for the time being, and I'll have to find it.