Did you catch the video on Screened about how bad the comicbook movies used to be?  I think personally that comics are the ultimate medium for the superhero style stories which are told.  Unlike movies there is no limitations on what can be done (apart from what the artist can draw.)  for some reason though comic fans get very excited to see big screen versions of their characters when this inherently takes away from part of the magic.  So before even anything has happened on screen I sort of see the comic book movie as lesser than a comic (this applies even more so to a show).  I think when it comes to movies too that I tend to console myself that the story has to reach some equilibirum between what comic fans know and what non-fans know (similar I would think to a movie about sports).  Too technical means you lose too many of the non-fans.  I personally don't think I would enjoy them more though, in fact I like what comic movies can do for comics and that is to take inspiration from them.  For instance I was pretty intereted when they made Jane Foster into an astrophysicist as opposed to a nurse (or doctor). There have been a few other cases of comics taking inspiration from movies which I thought were well done as well.  

I think if we had know knowledge of the comic book world before going into the film we would have a similar situation as you had with the WTF is going on?? or whose this guy supposed to be?

As for the next Batman film... It's going to be tough for it to live up to the greatness of TDK, but I have a feeling it's actually going to be better.

@RazzaTazz said:

Did you catch the video on Screened about how bad the comicbook movies used to be? I think personally that comics are the ultimate medium for the superhero style stories which are told. Unlike movies there is no limitations on what can be done (apart from what the artist can draw.) for some reason though comic fans get very excited to see big screen versions of their characters when this inherently takes away from part of the magic. So before even anything has happened on screen I sort of see the comic book movie as lesser than a comic (this applies even more so to a show). I think when it comes to movies too that I tend to console myself that the story has to reach some equilibirum between what comic fans know and what non-fans know (similar I would think to a movie about sports). Too technical means you lose too many of the non-fans. I personally don't think I would enjoy them more though, in fact I like what comic movies can do for comics and that is to take inspiration from them. For instance I was pretty intereted when they made Jane Foster into an astrophysicist as opposed to a nurse (or doctor). There have been a few other cases of comics taking inspiration from movies which I thought were well done as well.

What about shows like Smallville when you have no time constraints? are they a better medium IYO?

yes....being "to knowledgeable" also ruins the hell out of certain movies, for example: I found Thor to be ridiculously predictable in almost every way, 

You can never be too knowledgeable. If the fans aren't striving for better comic to film adaptations, the studios won't either, and then we'll be stuck with Marvel Studios; decent films but lacking depth.

@cattlebattle said:

yes....being "to knowledgeable" also ruins the hell out of certain movies, for example: I found Thor to be ridiculously predictable in almost every way,

I have no idea about anything in the Thor universe aside from a few characters and still found the movie awful

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

You can never be too knowledgeable. If the fans aren't striving for better comic to film adaptations, the studios won't either, and then we'll be stuck with Marvel Studios; decent films but lacking depth.

Hmm you make a good point sir

I think before the movies come out you can be too knowledgeable. For example, how many people thought X-Men: First Class would fail before it was even out (including me :P). People already have something like 'Hey... this isn't how it happened in the comics so the movie must be crap'. And during the movie (for me at least) i just let it all wash over me and afterwards I decide if I liked it or not.

@Aiden Cross said:

I think before the movies come out you can be too knowledgeable. For example, how many people thought X-Men: First Class would fail before it was even out (including me :P). People already have something like 'Hey... this isn't how it happened in the comics so the movie must be crap'. And during the movie (for me at least) i just let it all wash over me and afterwards I decide if I liked it or not.

oooh good point, the other side of it is that we actually go in with a sense of "HAH we know better this will be awful" rather than just letting it happen

@Aiden Cross said:

@.Mistress Redhead.: Pretty much yup! I'm guilty of it myself, I thought that with X-Men First Class and am thinking it now with Green Lantern (haven't seen it yet)

I was pleasantly surprised with X Men, but then... I am not overly attached to the characters. GL was just silly fun, but it wasn't Green Lantern.. if that makes sense.

As an up and coming movie critic, when i go watch a movie that is based on source material, i try and pretend like the movie is a unique creation and not from anything else, otherwise i will be completely disappointed, for instance when i saw "The Last Airbender" being a HUGE Avatar fan, that movie literally made me walk out of the theatre due to the inaccuracies, i try to view the movie as what it is...entertainment, i consider myself a good GL fan, and i did notice the differences in the film, but honestly, they didn't bother me, i just watched it as a movie, if i went in to every movie with a fan's eye, the experience wouldn't be very enjoyable (look how some of the Harry Potter movies differ from the books) 

As long as you're not trying to compare what the movie is to what it "ought to be" you should be fine. It's worked for me all these years, and yes I found some enjoyment in X3: Last Stand, the Transformers movies, and all these other movies that most in the comic community shun.

@Aiden Cross said:

@.Mistress Redhead.: Pretty much Transformers movie in space then :p

oh no... this is much better...

Sometimes when you know a lot about a subject one can build up an expectation of how it is supposed to be depicted and if that medium (television, movies, etc.)  depicts it differently than what we expect, we get angry.
I thought spider-man three tried to do too much, if they left venom out than maybe it would have been better.  I thought smallville was a great show, sure it wasn't like in the comics but it was fun.  The young justice cartoon differs from the comics but it's still a good show.
 
I am an avid transformers fan.  I knew the plot of the first movie before it came out.  The problem with the movie is that there were too many humans in it.  I saw Revenge of the Fallen on HBO and it was just bad.  Then again, the movies are based on a cartoon from the 80's that was designed to sell toys, asking it to be Citizen Kane is a major stretch.  I try to just jump in and enjoy things but sometimes it can be difficult. 

Sometimes I prefer to watch my movies as a comic book fan who is knowledgable of what is happening and sometimes I will try to ignore it and attempt to view it as how the studio is directing it towards the newer audiences. After watching Thor twice, I realized on the casual side, it was an action film with a bit of romance thrown in there, but when throwing in my knowledge of Thor, I enjoyed it that much more because of all the little things you catch throughout the movie.

I try to watch them independantly of any knowledge i have of the comics. However this barely ever works since they generally have bits that will drive any fans alittle crazy. Barraka-pool, Grey fox emma frost relationship etc . But as above if its done well the knowledge of the characters history helps you see hwo well they have done bringing it accurately to the big screen. Its a double edged sword lol.

I wonder as well if a movie is good enough do we naturally turn off out of sheer enjoyment!

I wonder as well if a movie is good enough do we naturally turn off out of sheer enjoyment!

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

I wonder as well if a movie is good enough do we naturally turn off out of sheer enjoyment!

I've only turned off like three movies in my life, and it certainly wasn't because they were too good :P

HAH I have actually turned off really good films, but mostly cause I realised they were good so I wait to watch em with Arrow ;)

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

I wonder as well if a movie is good enough do we naturally turn off out of sheer enjoyment!

I've only turned off like three movies in my life, and it certainly wasn't because they were too good :P

HAH I have actually turned off really good films, but mostly cause I realised they were good so I wait to watch em with Arrow ;)

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

I wonder as well if a movie is good enough do we naturally turn off out of sheer enjoyment!

I've only turned off like three movies in my life, and it certainly wasn't because they were too good :P

HAH I have actually turned off really good films, but mostly cause I realised they were good so I wait to watch em with Arrow ;)

Ahk, well that's alright. I've turned off... From Dusk Til Dawn Napoleon Dynamite Taxi Awful, awful films.Probably some more than I can't think of.

:O :O :O :O

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

I wonder as well if a movie is good enough do we naturally turn off out of sheer enjoyment!

I've only turned off like three movies in my life, and it certainly wasn't because they were too good :P

HAH I have actually turned off really good films, but mostly cause I realised they were good so I wait to watch em with Arrow ;)

Ahk, well that's alright. I've turned off... From Dusk Til Dawn Napoleon Dynamite Taxi Awful, awful films.Probably some more than I can't think of.

:O :O :O :O

@FadeToBlackBolt: Dynamite had its own humour, its not on my top 10 list or anything but it was funny! its no Blades of Glory though... that was hilarious ;p

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead.: I fracking hate Jon Heder....But I love BoG :P Jenna Fischer <3

The love returns! yeah, Jenna made that film! her and Will Arnett made me wet myself ;p

but how can you hate FDTD???

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead.: I fracking hate Jon Heder....But I love BoG :P Jenna Fischer <3

The love returns! yeah, Jenna made that film! her and Will Arnett made me wet myself ;p

but how can you hate FDTD???

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead.: I fracking hate Jon Heder....But I love BoG :P Jenna Fischer <3

The love returns! yeah, Jenna made that film! her and Will Arnett made me wet myself ;p

but how can you hate FDTD???

I'll watch anything with Jenna Fischer in it. Jim and Pam are still the best fictional couple ever, imo. I don't like Tarentino, Juliette Lewis, George Clooney (as an actor, I don't mind him as a person), Cheech's "pussy" monologue, Tarentino's character or just the vulgar nature of the film. I understand that it's a B-Movie, and a tribute to that vulgarity, but I just don't like it. It may sound puritanical, but I just can't enjoy the movie.

Understandable, its certainly not a film for everyone!

funny you should say that, I am currently watching the Office ;)

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead.: I fracking hate Jon Heder....But I love BoG :P Jenna Fischer <3

The love returns! yeah, Jenna made that film! her and Will Arnett made me wet myself ;p

but how can you hate FDTD???

I'll watch anything with Jenna Fischer in it. Jim and Pam are still the best fictional couple ever, imo. I don't like Tarentino, Juliette Lewis, George Clooney (as an actor, I don't mind him as a person), Cheech's "pussy" monologue, Tarentino's character or just the vulgar nature of the film. I understand that it's a B-Movie, and a tribute to that vulgarity, but I just don't like it. It may sound puritanical, but I just can't enjoy the movie.

Understandable, its certainly not a film for everyone!

funny you should say that, I am currently watching the Office ;)

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead. said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@.Mistress Redhead.: I fracking hate Jon Heder....But I love BoG :P Jenna Fischer <3

The love returns! yeah, Jenna made that film! her and Will Arnett made me wet myself ;p

but how can you hate FDTD???

I'll watch anything with Jenna Fischer in it. Jim and Pam are still the best fictional couple ever, imo. I don't like Tarentino, Juliette Lewis, George Clooney (as an actor, I don't mind him as a person), Cheech's "pussy" monologue, Tarentino's character or just the vulgar nature of the film. I understand that it's a B-Movie, and a tribute to that vulgarity, but I just don't like it. It may sound puritanical, but I just can't enjoy the movie.

Understandable, its certainly not a film for everyone!

funny you should say that, I am currently watching the Office ;)

Yeah, I usually have a strong stomach, but something about rape gets to me >_> The Office is a godly show. I've watched Season 2 through about 17 times lol

lol us too!

I can let it go to a degree, I don't mind X-Men 3 however when things completely swing the wrong way in such cases as Wolverine may Crom's vengeance be unleashed. 

I got tweeted ;p

Movies have to feel right being hung up on something that works for comics and not movies is foolish.

I can accept that characters and stories sometimes must be rewritten to adapt to the movies (for example, to skip aliens and magical rubies in X-Men movies, leaving only mutants, or to leave only vampires in Blade-verse), but the characters must be convincing, and the story must be interesting.

if the movie is good, I can overlook it not being comic accurate

but if it's bad, I usually feel bothered by it as a fan- let down mostly

I suppose it's a double edged sword because my friends who don't know any better tend to like things I think are awful, so maybe ignorance is bliss

but I think it's worth it- I may not be able to appreciate some of the crap, but I get to enjoy the far superior original versions of them 

It's actually not something limited to comic book movies...
 
It's been the case for many years, reading the book before seeing the movie...
 
The Lord of the Rings (trilogy and The Hobbit) are my favorite of all novels... AND I loved the movies as well... However, I couldn't help but notice all the differences and things that were left out or added...
There are things in books that can be brought out better in the movie... Also, there are some things in books that movies will never be able to replicate or bring out...  It's a trade off..
 
Would we enjoy the movies more if we knew nothing about the books?  I doubt it, but it's hard to say.  My wife loved The Lord of the Rings movies so much that she read the books... She loves the books more...
 
I DO however think, that if not many of us read the books, the movies simply wouldn't be made...

Depends on the quality of the movie... It can still be accurate to the comics (Like the 90's F4 movie) and still suck... 
 
But it could also have some made up stuff in it and still be great (Like X-men: First Class)

I don't know if we'd enjoy the movies more if we had less knoledge, but I'm sure we wouldn't be as dissapointed when they turn out bad.

It's good to be knowledgeable. There's nothing wrong how knowledgeable you can be. Gaining knowledge is always a positive thing. How you use that knowledge all depends. 
 
I don't really care for any comic book movie to be honest. That's initially going in with the thought of being critical and expecting a movie to follow everything to an exactly how the comic is... 
 
I have to prepare my self mentally for the movie knowing it's just an adaptation, nothing more. Adaptation to what degree, eh... could be any, possibly none at all. But the point is... don't treat comic book movies as "comic book movies", just treat it as a movie and you'll be able to some what tolerate the movie. Well, for me I can but... there are just some "comic movies" I can't stand, anything from X-Men except First Class (which was tolerable) and the last two Spider-Man movies. Especially Daredevil and Elektra...

Yes for the most part, but there will be this level of discretion available to us as well, something that I think applies to comics as well, given its open ended nature and frequent creator change ups. Its about why and what about comics appeals to us, VS the stuff we put up with. Of all the comic book movies I have seen so far this year, and I liked them all, so most of this will be relative, Green Lantern is the comic I know the least about, relatively, but the movie I liked the least, and I believe even if I had not known anything about the comic it would have been the movie I liked the least as well. I don't really like those types of heroes that the character played. Ironically one of my criticisms towards the movie was that the Hal character wasn't Hal enough for me, so if I wasn't knowledgeable of the comic, that criticism would have disappeared but it would be replaced by criticism of just why make that character the hero, when I think i would have preferred him to have been the bad guy, Hector to be the good guy. Freaky looking large headed guy trying to do the right thing against an evil alien army of 3600 Green Lantern's? Whilst battling an evil influence at the same time? Sounds better to me sort of... Eh not knowing the comic, I start asking all these other questions. I would have preferred Carol as the Green Lantern. Maybe a movie about Sinestro. Because I know the comic, I know why these things aren't and so am less critical of those creative decisions. Similar could be said for Thor, except I found his stubbornness and character flaws near the beginning of the movie, more sincere and less selfish and I felt he actually learned lessons and redeemed himself (Hal less so) still, without knowing the Thor character or comic I think I would have liked to have seen more of Sif and the Warriors Three. Contrast this with X-Men First Class, and I enjoyed what they did with Mystique even though I felt she was rather different from the comic character, but my knowledge of the comic character allowed me to recognize how she was actually given quite an important plot part in providing a nice balance to both Xavier and Magneto in the movie.   
 
So whilst it could be said I am too knowledgeable for my own good, I am too over analytical and discerning for my taste generally. lol Knowledge sometimes help me balance all that. Plus I tend to like movies anyway, its more me saying, First Class Magneto had a real point and value being brought over into the comics, where as Rogue's character in X-Men movie one, had little value or reasoning or point other than basically plot reasons. If I didn't know the comics, I couldn't call that and have been more neutral in both appreciation and criticism, at the same time, both those things would still stay true if you changed those characters names around, so Rogue to Original New Deus Ex Machina Girl #1 and Magneto to Nazi Hunting Awesome Dude #1.  
 
Cool thread!

First Class Magneto had a real point and value being brought over into the comics, where as Rogue's character in X-Men movie one, had little value or reasoning or point other than basically plot reasons. If I didn't know the comics, I couldn't call that and have been more neutral in both appreciation and criticism, at the same time, both those things would still stay true if you changed those characters names around, so Rogue to Original New Deus Ex Machina Girl #1 and Magneto to Nazi Hunting Awesome Dude #1.   Cool thread!

@SC said: 

First Class Magneto had a real point and value being brought over into the comics, where as Rogue's character in X-Men movie one, had little value or reasoning or point other than basically plot reasons. If I didn't know the comics, I couldn't call that and have been more neutral in both appreciation and criticism, at the same time, both those things would still stay true if you changed those characters names around, so Rogue to Original New Deus Ex Machina Girl #1 and Magneto to Nazi Hunting Awesome Dude #1.   Cool thread!

I felt  Rogue was the perfect character to introduce the "layman" to the world of the X-Men, she was for one thing, a teenager that was scared and confused (like how she was introduced in the comics originally) and also her power kind of counteracted the good looking, laser shooting, weather controlling, awesomeness that all the other mutants seemed to have in the film. Yes she was used as a "plot device" but I felt it was in a well thought out manner, other than being the teams resident  "powerhouse" which she was in the comics at that point in time.  So I felt, even with prior knowledge of Rogues character,after seeing the film... this was a fresh breath of air, or at least something we haven't seen in a while.  Off topic: It's funny people keep mentioning the Nazi hunting thing with Magneto, they actually followed suit with that one, as Magneto really did hunt Nazis in the comics LOL

I try to view the movies as completley different from the comics, and since I'm rarely ever disappointed with a movie I like almost all of them.  
 
HOWEVER I DO NOT LIKE   
 
X3  
Superman Returns  
Any movie with bat-nipples  
Ghost Rider  
Catwoman  
 
y'know the comic movies NOBODY likes.

@cattlebattle said:

@SC said: 

First Class Magneto had a real point and value being brought over into the comics, where as Rogue's character in X-Men movie one, had little value or reasoning or point other than basically plot reasons. If I didn't know the comics, I couldn't call that and have been more neutral in both appreciation and criticism, at the same time, both those things would still stay true if you changed those characters names around, so Rogue to Original New Deus Ex Machina Girl #1 and Magneto to Nazi Hunting Awesome Dude #1.   Cool thread!

I felt  Rogue was the perfect character to introduce the "layman" to the world of the X-Men, she was for one thing, a teenager that was scared and confused (like how she was introduced in the comics originally) and also her power kind of counteracted the good looking, laser shooting, weather controlling, awesomeness that all the other mutants seemed to have in the film. Yes she was used as a "plot device" but I felt it was in a well thought out manner, other than being the teams resident  "powerhouse" which she was in the comics at that point in time.  So I felt, even with prior knowledge of Rogues character,after seeing the film... this was a fresh breath of air, or at least something we haven't seen in a while.  Off topic: It's funny people keep mentioning the Nazi hunting thing with Magneto, they actually followed suit with that one, as Magneto really did hunt Nazis in the comics LOL

 

 
A female character used as a plot device to make a male character appear more badass and sensitive at the same time, thats really original lol BUT, that's not to say I don't see where your coming from, but suffice to say, I have a completely different outlook.  Mystique was used as a plot device/character aid in First Class and used well and her character still had individual value. Even the actress who played rogue was annoyed with how her role was written and developed. How she was used to aid the plot and characterization of others was rather weak as well. Far superior methods could have been employed at less cost. Makers of the movie have discussed using her for name value. One of the weakest reasons to use a character.  Off Topic. Its not that funny. When people bring it up, like I just did, its not because we don't know, most of the time its to demonstrate accuracy to the comics. 

I guess our outlooks are very different, LOL. Mystique wasn't so much as a plot device (her story wasn't really relative to the main stroy at all) as she was a character that suffered from the "prequelness" No, she didn't have to be in the story, the film would have been fine without her, but I felt her sub plot was more for emotional impact, and to progress on of the X franchises many questions....would you join Charles or Magneto (of course we knew how that ends up)  It's funny, I never heard of Anna Paquin mentioning any dislike about her character until X3, where she was very much the whole "Cure"s sub plot device, I wouldn't call her position weak in the first X-film either, as she was a teenage kid with little understanding of her abilities in a world of well....super heroes  I wasn't trying to be a dick with the last comment, You'd be surprised at the amount of people are unaware of most of Magnetos long, convoluted history. It just makes me laugh when so called "X-Men " fans criticized First Class for being overly inaccurate, when actually only the characters ages and chronological doings were off.

@cattlebattle said:

 Mystique was used as a plot device, in the sense that she balanced and was the neutral of the film, where as Charles was the pro, and Magneto was the con (as in views of humans) essentially both attitudes were pulling at Mystiques worlds view which can been seen to encapsulate the default or where most mutants are at. Yet to decide whether to follow Xavier's path or Magnetos. The movie would have been vastly different for me if Mystique was not in the movie, and unbalanced. I would have still liked the movie, mainly to Magneto and Xavier, but Mystique was the next most important character to me, and allowed a lot of defining moments for both Xavier and Magneto. She allowed us to see that Xavier was actually a little bit blind and possibly to optimistic, (with their scene and his lack of empathy for how she felt) and with her we were privy to Magneto's pride possibly to a fault as well. I think, nay I know this was the movie creators intent, so its more a matter of execution I feel, for you none of this came though? For me, both the X-Fan and movie fan, these things were apparent as soon as the movie finished and I started rethinking the movie.   Oh yeah, she was pretty... disappointed. She wasn't disrespectful to the writers/producers type people, but disappointed all the same.   Oh thats okay, you didn't come off that way *smile*, I was just trying to clarify my stance. I used Magneto as a good and accurate example of characterization from comics to film (and characterization and continuity are interlinked) I though First Class was very accurate in characterization. I agree with you that a lot of fans don't know and or don't understand the different between characterization, or continuity or the fans that don't know that continuity is something that's often wrong, or messed up in the actual comics, and not just in the last ten years. From day one. Most early comic writers didn't care about continuity so much, Stan Lee didn't. The fans of those comics that become writers they did, and for good reasons, continuity is one of the best and most awesome tools for a writer. 

It's funny that this conversation went back to the point of the post, If you have prior knowledge of the films or the comic books you know Magnetos destiny was to be the villain, My opinion, I found Magneto to be very much the hero of the film, Trying to bring his own selfish  version of justice to those that ruined his life, a very natural and "human" thing to do, while Charles was the neutral character in the sense his endgame was peace between all parties. I felt Mystique was there for some of the reasons you just said and the fact that her more physical mutation is subject to more scrutiny as they made apparent in the movie and which was a popular point of the first 3 films. I felt though if her character were not in the film they could have easily had another character fill her place, just saying I don't think she was a plot device or her actual character was a necessity, while I agree one of the defining scenes as you said, was the conversation between Erik and Raven in his bedroom, I felt this was sort of random as we (fans of the movie) already knew how he felt about her.  characterization and continuity, from comics specifically, is unfortunately a realm that X-Men films can never really embrace, I can't think of many other comics that are as retconned and confusing as the X-men over the years, Also when Stan lee wrote the books the comic market was a very different place, I always felt that Claremont brought his style over from the UK, I don;t know if he was a X-Men fan before writing it. but I get your point