Formerly known by names including "Atlas" and "Timely", Marvel Entertainment is the publisher of comic books featuring iconic characters and teams such as the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, the Avengers, the X-Men, Iron Man, the Hulk, Thor, Captain America and Daredevil. Currently owned by the Walt Disney Company, Marvel is one of the "Big Two" comic publishers along with DC Comics.
More like a 5 year old child putting Dolph Lundgren in an arm bar. I've seen some kids that were sorta strong, and if it requires ANY effort at all it's more effort than Surfer would need. It should be like Panther IS NOT THERE. Like, say you suddenly found your arm behind your back, then went "hey" and put it back at your side. Like that.
Nah its not that bad. Its only bad if you assume comic characters in comic books only exist to have fights. Well thats not true either, its bad because writer/artist aren't always in synch and comics medium isn't the same as a novel and so there is more room for reader interpretation. I always went with the notion Silver Surfer wasn't really trying that hard contrary to his facial expressions depicted and was rather playing along with the facade (elbow, arm lock part) and then that later on he used Doom tech and well.. Doom tech.
This is why I disagree with static shocks explanation. BP is an extremely intelligent individual. When he grabbed surfer it would feel to him like grabbing a statue. Surfers virtually invulnerable metallic skin coupled with his class 100 strength would be VERY noticeable to someone as smart and as skilled as panther. Imagine yourself grabbing one of the worlds strongest man competitors in an arm bar. Even if he let you put him in it you would feel his power, and muscle density and you would know he he was letting you do it. If you give surfer just 100 tons he is 250 times stronger than BP. That is the difference in a newborn and a strong man. BP is way to skilled and smart not to feel that difference in power even with surfer pretending.
1. That is not any type of martial arts hold or choke. BP's left arm is not in any type of air choke or blood choke. He is trying to hold SS's right arm behind his back with his own right arm (cross side). There is no strength in that hold at all. Even at the same strength level, SS would have more strength to break away than BP would have to hold him there. Have someone try it on you and see if you can't break out easily. It's shoulder vs arm, and shoulder wins.
2. Assuming they knew that is no type of hold and was using some type of pressure point, he could not apply it to the Silver Surfer, who has nearly indestructible skin. If he was going for a choke and had one, it doesn't matter because the Surfer doesn't need to breathe and does not have blood to stop the flow to his brain (again, super hard skin anyway). Human physiology does not apply here. Go somewhere and try to choke out a statue and see where that gets you.
3. The Silver Surfer is above class 100 strength. BP is simply a top athlete. No amount of difference in skill applies. Even if that was a real martial arts hold or choke, the Surfer could break free easily, become intangible, create a shield or energy barrier, an energy blast, use his board to break free, a telepathic attack, rip BP apart atom by atom, etc. You get the point.
4. Black Panther should be dead from the blast from Stardust.
So, was it bad? You bet it was. Even later when the PC was siphoned from SS and Black Panther fought him, his skill would prevail but he would shatter every bone in his arm punching the Surfer in the face.
Guys, the armlock wasn't exactly PIS. First, let me post the scan after that.
Read what the Surfer says.
Also, this is what McDuffie said about the instance.
"Read the scene again and this time pay attention. The Surfer allowed the Panther to "restrain" him in the hope of finding out what the FF was up to. A panel later, the Surfer's assistant blasts the Panther unconscious. The Surfer is irritated because he wanted the Panther to talk, which he thought he might do if the Panther believed he had the upper hand. Most of the people who bitch about this have only seen a scan of one page, or have poor reading comprehension skills."
So, basically, the Surfer let T'Challa do it and made him think that he had him restrained. T'Challa didn't actually have Surfer restrained there.
This is why I disagree with static shocks explanation. BP is an extremely intelligent individual. When he grabbed surfer it would feel to him like grabbing a statue. Surfers virtually invulnerable metallic skin coupled with his class 100 strength would be VERY noticeable to someone as smart and as skilled as panther. Imagine yourself grabbing one of the worlds strongest man competitors in an arm bar. Even if he let you put him in it you would feel his power, and muscle density and you would know he he was letting you do it. If you give surfer just 100 tons he is 250 times stronger than BP. That is the difference in a newborn and a strong man. BP is way to skilled and smart not to feel that difference in power even with surfer pretending.
............He obviously struggled ENOUGH to let Black Panther think he had an upper hand. No more than that. And, they are the EXACT same body shape, minus Surfer's appearance. It's not like he grabbed hold of Zangief. He mentioned "humanoid" for a reason.
If T'Challa was confident enough to believe that the hold would WORK in the first place, then how is it so unbelievable that he fell for the Surfer out thinking him? He tried the hold, WHY NOT believe the end result?
This is why I disagree with static shocks explanation. BP is an extremely intelligent individual. When he grabbed surfer it would feel to him like grabbing a statue. Surfers virtually invulnerable metallic skin coupled with his class 100 strength would be VERY noticeable to someone as smart and as skilled as panther. Imagine yourself grabbing one of the worlds strongest man competitors in an arm bar. Even if he let you put him in it you would feel his power, and muscle density and you would know he he was letting you do it. If you give surfer just 100 tons he is 250 times stronger than BP. That is the difference in a newborn and a strong man. BP is way to skilled and smart not to feel that difference in power even with surfer pretending.
............He obviously struggled ENOUGH to let Black Panther think he had an upper hand. No more than that. And, they are the EXACT same body shape, minus Surfer's appearance. It's not like he grabbed hold of Zangief. He mentioned "humanoid" for a reason.
If T'Challa was confident enough to believe that the hold would WORK in the first place, then how is it so unbelievable that he fell for the Surfer out thinking him? He tried the hold, WHY NOT believe the end result?
Humanoid basically means resembling human or having a human shape. Zangief has a human shape, heck living Monloith when he was thousands of feet tall had a humanoid physique.
Have you ever grabbed someone way way stronger than you? Did you ever grab your dad when you were young and play wrestling or a much older brother? When you get on their back you feel their power! You don't think for a second "i got this". You are more like "oh shi*". Even when they let you put moves on them (like a figure four hahah) you can feel the strength in their limbs, the mucle density and power. You can tell you cant reallllly hold it. These are people with at most double maybe triple your strength (in the case of Dad and kid). Surfer is at least 250 times stronger than BP. Surfer couldn't struggle at all. With class 100 strength he could flick BP with his pinky and crack his skull. remember in Kingdom come when superman had his hand over batsons mouth. His hand spasms just a twitch and Batson mouth started bleeding. That is realistic when you are dealing with those kind of power levels versus human.
Surfer doesn't look at all like he is gonna be able to lift over 100 tons. BP would have grabbed him and immediately known it was a mistake. He is far too smart and gone hand to hand with far too many people not to feel surfers vastly superior strength. Not to mention surfers virtually invulnerable skin would feel like steel.
This is why I disagree with static shocks explanation. BP is an extremely intelligent individual. When he grabbed surfer it would feel to him like grabbing a statue. Surfers virtually invulnerable metallic skin coupled with his class 100 strength would be VERY noticeable to someone as smart and as skilled as panther. Imagine yourself grabbing one of the worlds strongest man competitors in an arm bar. Even if he let you put him in it you would feel his power, and muscle density and you would know he he was letting you do it. If you give surfer just 100 tons he is 250 times stronger than BP. That is the difference in a newborn and a strong man. BP is way to skilled and smart not to feel that difference in power even with surfer pretending.
............He obviously struggled ENOUGH to let Black Panther think he had an upper hand. No more than that. And, they are the EXACT same body shape, minus Surfer's appearance. It's not like he grabbed hold of Zangief. He mentioned "humanoid" for a reason.
If T'Challa was confident enough to believe that the hold would WORK in the first place, then how is it so unbelievable that he fell for the Surfer out thinking him? He tried the hold, WHY NOT believe the end result?
Humanoid basically means resembling human or having a human shape. Zangief has a human shape, heck living Monloith when he was thousands of feet tall had a humanoid physique.
Have you ever grabbed someone way way stronger than you? Did you ever grab your dad when you were young and play wrestling or a much older brother? When you get on their back you feel their power! You don't think for a second "i got this". You are more like "oh shi*". Even when they let you put moves on them (like a figure four hahah) you can feel the strength in their limbs, the mucle density and power. You can tell you cant reallllly hold it. These are people with at most double maybe triple your strength (in the case of Dad and kid). Surfer is at least 250 times stronger than BP. Surfer couldn't struggle at all. With class 100 strength he could flick BP with his pinky and crack his skull. remember in Kingdom come when superman had his hand over batsons mouth. His hand spasms just a twitch and Batson mouth started bleeding. That is realistic when you are dealing with those kind of power levels versus human.
Surfer doesn't look at all like he is gonna be able to lift over 100 tons. BP would have grabbed him and immediately known it was a mistake. He is far too smart and gone hand to hand with far too many people not to feel surfers vastly superior strength. Not to mention surfers virtually invulnerable skin would feel like steel.
Zangief example was mentioned to say Surfer isn't body builder huge, so recognizing that he is stronger than you wouldn't necessarily be immediately possible. He is made out of a material that is (as shown different times) flexible in a very "human-like"manner, to the point where he can "bend" in realistic ways. The reason why I disagree with your example of "Dad vs. son" is because this was not the case. They are the exact same body type. Despite what material he is made out of, he still was bending in fairly convincing manner. For me, this feels a bit like an argument that says he should've shredded Black Panther's suit from his body, because he was dragging him "normally" in the next-ish panel. Material and superior strength don't HAVE to matter as much, when the other person is, apparently, able to alter his strength and not flex AS much as he would have to to, let's say, break someone's skull.
This is why I disagree with static shocks explanation. BP is an extremely intelligent individual. When he grabbed surfer it would feel to him like grabbing a statue. Surfers virtually invulnerable metallic skin coupled with his class 100 strength would be VERY noticeable to someone as smart and as skilled as panther. Imagine yourself grabbing one of the worlds strongest man competitors in an arm bar. Even if he let you put him in it you would feel his power, and muscle density and you would know he he was letting you do it. If you give surfer just 100 tons he is 250 times stronger than BP. That is the difference in a newborn and a strong man. BP is way to skilled and smart not to feel that difference in power even with surfer pretending.
............He obviously struggled ENOUGH to let Black Panther think he had an upper hand. No more than that. And, they are the EXACT same body shape, minus Surfer's appearance. It's not like he grabbed hold of Zangief. He mentioned "humanoid" for a reason.
If T'Challa was confident enough to believe that the hold would WORK in the first place, then how is it so unbelievable that he fell for the Surfer out thinking him? He tried the hold, WHY NOT believe the end result?
Humanoid basically means resembling human or having a human shape. Zangief has a human shape, heck living Monloith when he was thousands of feet tall had a humanoid physique.
Have you ever grabbed someone way way stronger than you? Did you ever grab your dad when you were young and play wrestling or a much older brother? When you get on their back you feel their power! You don't think for a second "i got this". You are more like "oh shi*". Even when they let you put moves on them (like a figure four hahah) you can feel the strength in their limbs, the mucle density and power. You can tell you cant reallllly hold it. These are people with at most double maybe triple your strength (in the case of Dad and kid). Surfer is at least 250 times stronger than BP. Surfer couldn't struggle at all. With class 100 strength he could flick BP with his pinky and crack his skull. remember in Kingdom come when superman had his hand over batsons mouth. His hand spasms just a twitch and Batson mouth started bleeding. That is realistic when you are dealing with those kind of power levels versus human.
Surfer doesn't look at all like he is gonna be able to lift over 100 tons. BP would have grabbed him and immediately known it was a mistake. He is far too smart and gone hand to hand with far too many people not to feel surfers vastly superior strength. Not to mention surfers virtually invulnerable skin would feel like steel.
Zangief example was mentioned to say Surfer isn't body builder huge, so recognizing that he is stronger than you wouldn't necessarily be immediately possible. He is made out of a material that is (as shown different times) flexible in a very "human-like"manner, to the point where he can "bend" in realistic ways. The reason why I disagree with your example of "Dad vs. son" is because this was not the case. They are the exact same body type. Despite what material he is made out of, he still was bending in fairly convincing manner. For me, this feels a bit like an argument that says he should've shredded Black Panther's suit from his body, because he was dragging him "normally" in the next-ish panel. Material and superior strength don't HAVE to matter as much, when the other person is, apparently, able to alter his strength and not flex AS much as he would have to to, let's say, break someone's skull.
Him not being as being as Zangief is probably why BP was confident enough to believe he could do it. Yes his skin can bend and flex, but it is going to feel resistant to force and pressure because it IS resistant to force and pressure. A worlds' strongest man guys arm is made out of the same flesh bone and muscle as an 80 year old grandmothers. It is however waay more resistant to force or pressure. If you grabbed one and then the other you would feel a noticeable difference in the density and power even though they flex and bend the same way.
my example of dad vs son was for a relatable strength comparison and not a size comparison.
Of course surfer can grab things normally without shredding them. He is in control of his strength and can regulate it. Just like a really strong human doesn't pick up a banana and just squish it because they are so strong. I just think BP would know and feel as soon as he grabbed surfer that he was out of his league. Again if you have ever wrestled with someone a lot stronger than you you can tell by feel if you can control them or not, even if they are allowing you to put moves on them.
The problem with all these people saying it'd be easy for BP to assume Surfer wasn't much stronger than him but that doesn't work logically because he lives in a world where some small children can toss SUVs around so he'd be smart enough not to judge someone at first sight and on top of that Surfer is well known to be able to take down gods and demons with minimal effort, BP would be smart enough to know trying to hold Surfer was stupid
So the argument is that Black Panther was PIS'D, and Silver Surfer was fine? I'm willing to not retaliate, based on the fact that this is better than people feeling SS was the one who got played.
@Valkaad said:
@White Mage said:
@Valkaad said:
@White Mage said:
@Valkaad said:
This is why I disagree with static shocks explanation. BP is an extremely intelligent individual. When he grabbed surfer it would feel to him like grabbing a statue. Surfers virtually invulnerable metallic skin coupled with his class 100 strength would be VERY noticeable to someone as smart and as skilled as panther. Imagine yourself grabbing one of the worlds strongest man competitors in an arm bar. Even if he let you put him in it you would feel his power, and muscle density and you would know he he was letting you do it. If you give surfer just 100 tons he is 250 times stronger than BP. That is the difference in a newborn and a strong man. BP is way to skilled and smart not to feel that difference in power even with surfer pretending.
............He obviously struggled ENOUGH to let Black Panther think he had an upper hand. No more than that. And, they are the EXACT same body shape, minus Surfer's appearance. It's not like he grabbed hold of Zangief. He mentioned "humanoid" for a reason.
If T'Challa was confident enough to believe that the hold would WORK in the first place, then how is it so unbelievable that he fell for the Surfer out thinking him? He tried the hold, WHY NOT believe the end result?
Humanoid basically means resembling human or having a human shape. Zangief has a human shape, heck living Monloith when he was thousands of feet tall had a humanoid physique.
Have you ever grabbed someone way way stronger than you? Did you ever grab your dad when you were young and play wrestling or a much older brother? When you get on their back you feel their power! You don't think for a second "i got this". You are more like "oh shi*". Even when they let you put moves on them (like a figure four hahah) you can feel the strength in their limbs, the mucle density and power. You can tell you cant reallllly hold it. These are people with at most double maybe triple your strength (in the case of Dad and kid). Surfer is at least 250 times stronger than BP. Surfer couldn't struggle at all. With class 100 strength he could flick BP with his pinky and crack his skull. remember in Kingdom come when superman had his hand over batsons mouth. His hand spasms just a twitch and Batson mouth started bleeding. That is realistic when you are dealing with those kind of power levels versus human.
Surfer doesn't look at all like he is gonna be able to lift over 100 tons. BP would have grabbed him and immediately known it was a mistake. He is far too smart and gone hand to hand with far too many people not to feel surfers vastly superior strength. Not to mention surfers virtually invulnerable skin would feel like steel.
Zangief example was mentioned to say Surfer isn't body builder huge, so recognizing that he is stronger than you wouldn't necessarily be immediately possible. He is made out of a material that is (as shown different times) flexible in a very "human-like"manner, to the point where he can "bend" in realistic ways. The reason why I disagree with your example of "Dad vs. son" is because this was not the case. They are the exact same body type. Despite what material he is made out of, he still was bending in fairly convincing manner. For me, this feels a bit like an argument that says he should've shredded Black Panther's suit from his body, because he was dragging him "normally" in the next-ish panel. Material and superior strength don't HAVE to matter as much, when the other person is, apparently, able to alter his strength and not flex AS much as he would have to to, let's say, break someone's skull.
Him not being as being as Zangief is probably why BP was confident enough to believe he could do it. Yes his skin can bend and flex, but it is going to feel resistant to force and pressure because it IS resistant to force and pressure. A worlds' strongest man guys arm is made out of the same flesh bone and muscle as an 80 year old grandmothers. It is however waay more resistant to force or pressure. If you grabbed one and then the other you would feel a noticeable difference in the density and power even though they flex and bend the same way.
my example of dad vs son was for a relatable strength comparison and not a size comparison.
Of course surfer can grab things normally without shredding them. He is in control of his strength and can regulate it. Just like a really strong human doesn't pick up a banana and just squish it because they are so strong. I just think BP would know and feel as soon as he grabbed surfer that he was out of his league. Again if you have ever wrestled with someone a lot stronger than you you can tell by feel if you can control them or not, even if they are allowing you to put moves on them.
I see no need for this to go on any further. I understand where you're coming from (though it does make sense for me), and you aren't arguing about SS's portrayal as much as BP's, so I relent. Nice chat.
I see what everyone is saying. Black Panther damn well knows who the Silver Surfer is, should know he can't hold him and even has a device all ready at home to siphon his power. BP is one of the snartest people on earth. The whole thing was WIS at it's finest.
I see what everyone is saying. Black Panther damn well knows who the Silver Surfer is, should know he can't hold him and even has a device all ready at home to siphon his power. BP is one of the snartest people on earth. The whole thing was WIS at it's finest.
Should have gone for a Figure Four Leg Lock. Prevents Surfer from surfing and then T'Challa can say "Fantastic Figure Four this Foolio". Then Surfer will turn it over and then Vince McMahon would run down and call for the bell. Then that issue could be known as the Wakanda Screwjob.
@ReVamp: The whole arc. I think a lot of people never read it and just want to discuss the "armbar." Other doozies include BP simply leaving the team with no explanation to fight by themselves (and possibly die) to get his PC siphoning device "he just so happened to have laying around." Oh yeah, and Solomon's golden magical frogs, or whatever. No one ever mentions them. Then Duffie went on to write Eternity, you know, the entirety of reality, transferred into Storm's mind, as if any mere mortal could survive such a thing.
It really was plain and simple bad writing. Duffie just wanted BP and Storm to come off not only looking like they could take Reed and Sue's place on the team, but also that they are the most badass characters ever made. Johnny and Thing were just background characters. The only good thing of the entire story was Sue punking out the Wizard in the end. I have to say, that was gold.
@ReVamp: The whole arc. I think a lot of people never read it and just want to discuss the "armbar." Other doozies include BP simply leaving the team with no explanation to fight by themselves (and possibly die) to get his PC siphoning device "he just so happened to have laying around." Oh yeah, and Solomon's golden magical frogs, or whatever. No one ever mentions them. Then Duffie went on to write Eternity, you know, the entirety of reality, transferred into Storm's mind, as if any mere mortal could survive such a thing.
It really was plain and simple bad writing. Duffie just wanted BP and Storm to come off not only looking like they could take Reed and Sue's place on the team, but also that they are the most badass characters ever made. Johnny and Thing were just background characters. The only good thing of the entire story was Sue punking out the Wizard in the end. I have to say, that was gold.
Yeah, well I haven't read it personally so I'm not going to opinionate on something which I have no backing. But wait...
Didn't the "armbar" ocurr during Volume 3 and BP on the FF ocurr in Volume 4?
No one ever mentions them. Then Duffie went on to write Eternity, you know, the entirety of reality, transferred into Storm's mind, as if any mere mortal could survive such a thing.
Wait a minute, Eternity is not a mortal, I am sure he could survive in the void that is the True Bright Goddesses head for at least a little while before the burning light of The Ororo denies him his sanity. Me thinks you undermine Eternity. He could survive for a bit. Maybe not long, but a fraction of a short time.
@lykopis said:
@SC said:
Should have gone for a Figure Four Leg Lock. Prevents Surfer from surfing and then T'Challa can say "Fantastic Figure Four this Foolio". Then Surfer will turn it over and then Vince McMahon would run down and call for the bell. Then that issue could be known as the Wakanda Screwjob.
Just what do you think you are doing outside, young man? What did I say about too much fresh air? All these clear-minded ideas that make sense. That's enough of that now.
*is suspicious of whether Lykopis actually gets any of my references* Hmmn, well you are Canadian... so you probably know who Bret Hart is... okay I'll buy it.
I was told BP's vibranium suit can absorb kinetic energy.
That person is correct.
@jloneblackheart said:
...and even has a device all ready at home to siphon his power...
Exactly, the device was a part of a contingency plan that Black Panther previously prepped for back during Priest's run. Everett Ross lost his mind when he saw a folder containing the plan. The device, which was based on the technology that was once used against the Surfer was a fraction of that plan. McDuffie basically took what another writer wrote years prior and used it in the plot.
@White Mage said:
If T'Challa was confident enough to believe that the hold would WORK in the first place, then how is it so unbelievable that he fell for the Surfer out thinking him? He tried the hold, WHY NOT believe the end result?
This is pretty much the entire point here. Although the page itself didn't make it seem that way, it was what the writer intended. Why people find it difficult to go with this is beyond me. But, whatever. McDuffie already kicked the can, anyway.
@Valkaad said:
@Static Shock: I should have said Mcduffie's explanation. I think he put it in, got complaints and came up with a reason. Just my opinion.
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