Respect Doctor Strange Supreme (Marvel Cinematic Universe: What If...?)

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WastelandMan

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#1  Edited By WastelandMan
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Introduction

An alternate version of the Marvel Cinematic Universe's Doctor Strange, this incarnation of the character explores the events that would occur if instead of losing his hands during the car crash on that fateful night, Stephen had instead lost his heart, experiencing the death of his love Christine Palmer. The resulting grief drove Strange to travel the world in search of a way to heal his pain, discovering the Ancient One and learning the Mystic Arts. Unlike his main timeline counterpart, however, this version chose to walk a darker path, becoming obsessed with resurrecting his lost love by any means.


Note: The Ancient One had split Dr. Strange, allowing for two Stranges within the same timeline. All feats performed by this second Strange will be marked [S2].


Spells and Magic

This version of Strange is stated to have underwent similar experiences as his main timeline counterpart in the original film, mastering the Mystic Arts and facing and defeating Dormammu. Diverging from this point, this Strange travels back in time to find the Lost Library of Cagliostro, studying the mystic tomes within and spending centuries accumulating power. He's likewise a prodigy in sorcery, him and the other version of himself that exists in the same timeline stated by the Ancient One to be the two strongest sorcerers alive on the planet.

Skill:

Absorption:

The key ability Strange learned in his pursuit to resurrect Christine is the ability to absorb mystical entities to steal their power.

Summoning:

In his quest to absorb mystic beings for their power Strange learned how to summon them using a magic circle. He's also able to summon these creatures from his body and even warp his body or parts of it into the creature's he's absorbed (see *Shapeshifting* below).

Shapeshifting:

Shields:

Portals:

Energy Projection:

Telekinesis:

Binding:

Illusion:

Conjuring:

Mystic Senses:

Protection Spell:

Strange can conjure mystic shields around himself and others able to defend the host from both physical and mystical harm.

Other/Misc:

Gear and Equipment

This version of Strange carries mystic artifacts that appear identical to his main timeline version.

Cloak of Levitation:

A cloak that grants flight/levitation, he would later obtain an unnamed cloak that appears to function identically, even showed being evenly matched with the original, while the version of himself that chose to stay in the present within the timeline kept his original one.

Eye of Agamotto:

Like its main timeline counterpart, contains an Infinity Stone, the Time Stone, allowing Strange the ability to alter and manipulate time.

Physical Attributes

"You, more than anyone else, should understand that meddling with time and events only leads to more destruction."

My Other Respect Threads

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#2  Edited By SpiderMe

Great thread

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#4 death4bunnies  Online
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#5  Edited By WastelandMan
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Zetsu-San

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#6  Edited By Zetsu-San

You know what would make a cool What If? What If Odin didn’t soften with age and continued trying to conquer the Galaxy? They could even have Dr Strange team up with the GotG to beat him.

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Nice.

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You know what would make a cool What If? What If Odin didn’t soften with age and continued trying to conquer the Galaxy? They could even have Dr Strange team up with the GotG to beat him.

That'd be really cool since we'd get to see Odin in his Prime, and especially with how the animation's really been taking advantage of the medium we'd probably. IIRC there was a statement that Odin's death was one of the reasons Thanos was able to start his invasion so he'd probably be an even much bigger threat than him, maybe next season's biggest threat. I'm also hoping Strange or at least some of the What If characters appear in the main timeline.

Nice.

Thanks!

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Zetsu-San

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#9  Edited By Zetsu-San

@wastelandman:

I'm also hoping Strange or at least some of the What If characters appear in the main timeline.

Yea, I was actually thinking it'd be interesting if Dark Strange turned into some sort of evil cosmic entity after his universe collapsed. Like maybe he is the origin of MCU's Shuma Gorath.

Though I doubt they'll go that route, since he seems to have regained his sanity and is siding with Uwatu.

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Zetsu-San

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@wastelandman: Just watched the new episode. Strange’s protection magic is confirmed galaxy+++ level.

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WastelandMan

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Oof got a lot of updating to do lol

@wastelandman: Just watched the new episode. Strange’s protection magic is confirmed galaxy+++ level.

Yeah, last episode blew my mind ! I mean I expected Strange would be impressive given how much magic he's absorbed but I didn't expect him to very literally eat a galaxy exploding lmao

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@zetsu-san:

Looking back at the episode, he genuinely performed feats comparable to comic Strange's.

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Zetsu-San

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@wastelandman: I think he’s more powerful than comic Strange, at least at their standard levels.

I still think it would be interesting if, after spending billions of years in his void, he slowly became Shuma Gorath or some other sort of cosmic entity that MCU Strange will have to deal with.

I have to say though. Ultron’s defeat felt like a major ass-pull. Dude can withstand galaxy to universal level forces, but gets his eye pierced by a random arrow. And it’s really silly that cold-war era AI was somehow able to out-hack an advanced modern AI made from an Infinity Stone. Especially after he evolved a cosmic level of awareness.

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Zetsu-San

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@wastelandman: Also, I’m really disappointed Zombie IG Thanos didn’t show up when Strange opened the Marvel Zombies portal.

What was even the point of showing him, if he wasn’t going to be used in this episode? lol

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You many want to update this after Ep 9.

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WastelandMan

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@wastelandman: I think he’s more powerful than comic Strange, at least at their standard levels.

He has more raw power no doubt but I think 616 Strange could still pull a win with greater skill and combat experience .

I still think it would be interesting if, after spending billions of years in his void, he slowly became Shuma Gorath or some other sort of cosmic entity that MCU Strange will have to deal with.

I could see that in fact that would also be a throw back to the comics in the story line where he first learned black magic, stealing power and started becoming Shuma-Gorath by the end of it

I have to say though. Ultron’s defeat felt like a major ass-pull. Dude can withstand galaxy to universal level forces, but gets his eye pierced by a random arrow. And it’s really silly that cold-war era AI was somehow able to out-hack an advanced modern AI made from an Infinity Stone. Especially after he evolved a cosmic level of awareness.

Yeah it was pretty lame. I think they did it just because he was also a prominent AI in the lore but it makes a lot less sense the more you think about it. Would have been more believable if he was at least modified or amped in some way. Idk what the limits were behind the scenes but it didn't seem like it'd be too much of an issue from my perspective just to throw in a scene or at the least a comment about that or something.

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@wastelandman: Also, I’m really disappointed Zombie IG Thanos didn’t show up when Strange opened the Marvel Zombies portal.

What was even the point of showing him, if he wasn’t going to be used in this episode? lol

Yeah that was weird. If Strange knew about Zombie Wanda you'd think he'd be aware about Zombie IG Thanos. Maybe they're saving what happened next for season 2?

@rupsha said:

You many want to update this after Ep 9.

Yeah it'll hopefully be up by tomorrow if not the next day.

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Zetsu-San

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@wastelandman: If Strange gets some preparation or a properly structured story arc to work with, then sure. But if they just encounter each other and fight, I don’t think 616 would come out the victor.

What If Strange is solidly above skyfather level imo.

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Zetsu-San

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@wastelandman: Next season, they should have this Strange fight the Anime Movie Strange (the one that ate Dormammu).

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@wastelandman: If Strange gets some preparation or a properly structured story arc to work with, then sure. But if they just encounter each other and fight, I don’t think 616 would come out the victor.

What If Strange is solidly above skyfather level imo.

So do you think he could beat a full powered 616 Odin?

I'm entirely open to him being that powerful, but honestly going strictly by feats he actually hasn't done anything comic Strange hasn't already replicated (though maybe with some more effort in some cases) other than no-selling and eating a galaxy exploding.

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@wastelandman: Next season, they should have this Strange fight the Anime Movie Strange (the one that ate Dormammu).

lol they'd need to amp him a lot to match him. It'd be cool to see just because it opens up more crossover possibilities.

If we get another Strange episode it'd be cool to see them do a version based on his very early comics where he was more like a supernatural detective. They could get Scott Derrickson on board to direct since that seemed like he focused more on that material and wanted to go more in that direction anyway. They could even use the unused design based on his retro look:

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Zetsu-San

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#22  Edited By Zetsu-San
@wastelandman said:
@zetsu-san said:

@wastelandman: If Strange gets some preparation or a properly structured story arc to work with, then sure. But if they just encounter each other and fight, I don’t think 616 would come out the victor.

What If Strange is solidly above skyfather level imo.

So do you think he could beat a full powered 616 Odin?

I'm entirely open to him being that powerful, but honestly going strictly by feats he actually hasn't done anything comic Strange hasn't already replicated (though maybe with some more effort in some cases) other than no-selling and eating a galaxy exploding.

Yea, I think he could beat Odin honestly. If nothing else, I’d certainly consider Odin the underdog, who has to win with skill and wit rather than raw power.

Yea, Strange has a lot of really crazy feats that show up during major “story climax” moments, but generally speaking, I don’t think he’s meant to be some sort of pseudo skyfather like Vine tends to treat him as.

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WastelandMan

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Yea, I think he could beat Odin honestly.

Yea, Strange has a lot of really crazy feats that show up during major “story climax” moments, but generally speaking, I don’t think he’s meant to be some sort of pseudo skyfather like Vine tends to treat him as.

I think if we consider high-ends Odin's would definitely out match Dark Strange's so I guess it comes down to what we think is consistent or the level we think they should be at.

I have Strange anywhere around Transcendent (which I guess is psuedo skyfatherlevel lol) to Herald-level tier. Other than the the Galaxy busting feat, what feat do you think comic Strange couldn't replicate with his average feats?

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Zetsu-San

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#24  Edited By Zetsu-San

@wastelandman: I mean, if you go by high end feats and statements, you could arguably put Odin at universal or even higher. But that’s not generally what we consider skyfather level.

I don’t think Strange can casually buff people to a level where they can tank galaxy++ reality busting attacks or easily hurt an entity that’s arguable near Universal and was smashing through realities with the ease Ultron was.

That kind of buff is the type of thing that takes all the Norn Stones to accomplish and even then, What If Strange’s buffs are arguably better.

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Zetsu-San

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@wastelandman: I think Strange is a herald. Which to me, is basically just a high tier with a lot of versatility and the ability to hit above their weight class when the plot demands.

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#26  Edited By WastelandMan

@zetsu-san:

I've seen people's standards for tiers vary so wildly so it's why I don't really like going off them to gauge a characters powers.

Yeah the protection spell is above what comic Strange can casually cast but I don't think that means he's that much above Strange just that he has far more powerful protection spell. There are spell types I can mention for comic Strange that blows this version of Strange out of the water like illusion, TP, transmutation etc. etc. Furthermore, there's nothing indicating it would be above comic Strange's ability to learn to cast, he did learn a spell to contain an amped Galactus and Dormammu level spells based on pure observation after all.

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Zetsu-San

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#27  Edited By Zetsu-San

@wastelandman: I mean, if you want to take Odin's absolute best feats and statements then yea I guess you can place him at Universal+ level, in which case he could probably take this version of Strange, but I mean... Wouldn't that also kind of put Odin in a similar playing field as Principalities like The Vishanti and Dormammu? Maybe the writers who wrote those scenes intended this, but generally speaking, Odin seems like he's supposed to scale below them.

There are spell types I can mention for comic Strange that blows this version of Strange out of the water like illusion, TP, transmutation etc. etc.

It's not like Strange just cycles through all of his hax and top spells whenever he's in a confrontation.

Furthermore, What If Strange only showed up in 2 short episodes. He may not have directly shown these powers but I honestly find it hard to believe that he's incapable of them. He was clearly able to contend with a full Infinity Gauntlet Ultron, who very much showed that he knew how to utilize the stones properly. So at the very least, I think we can assume Strange's protection spells would defend against these types of hax, as that's what makes up the Gauntlets over-all reality warping power.

Furthermore, there's nothing indicating it would be above comic Strange's ability to learn to cast, he did learn a spell to contain an amped Galactus and Dormammu level spells based on pure observation after all.

Let me put it this way... If Galactus or Dormammu, or even just a non-jobber Odin, popped up in front of Strange, without warning, and immediately tried their absolute damndest to kill him; do you think he'd be able to successfully deal with them, without the help of some heavy duty plot armor?

Obviously, Strange capable of casting very powerful spells during major climax moments for his stories. The whole point of his character is that he exists to defend against things that threaten reality itself.

But I don't think he's meant to be a character that's actually on their level, just a powerful and knowledgeable wizard with the resources to deal with cosmic threats when it's required of him.

If he just walked around with that kind of juice and used it in his normal confrontations, it would really remove a lot of the urgency from... at least half his stories, if not more. Not all of his conflicts involve universal destruction and not every villain who gives him grief is some sort of godly being.

Now, I know I'm not as knowledgeable as you on the character. If we get into a nitty gritty debate of what's an outlier and what's not or how often he displays "x level of power", I probably wouldn't be able to keep up.

But... Based on the arcs I've read, the battles I've seen, the way his fights are portrayed, the types of villains and monsters that he occasionally struggles against; I just don't feel like you have to be some sort of galaxy level being, to give Strange a good fight.

I think if Strange were to fight someone like Ainz Ooal Gown, Negima, or Gathel Phrodine, (Neither of which have even explicitly destroyed a planet, much less a galaxy), I can't picture it being portrayed as some sort of casual stomp.

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#28  Edited By WastelandMan

@zetsu-san:

I mean, if you want to take Odin's absolute best feats and statements then yea I guess you can place him at Universal+ level, in which case he could probably take this version of Strange, but I mean... Wouldn't that also kind of put Odin in a similar playing field as Principalities like The Vishanti and Dormammu? Maybe the writers who wrote those scenes intended this, but generally speaking, Odin seems like he's supposed to scale below them.

I wouldn't put Odin there even with his best feats compared to the Visitant's or Dormammu's (unless we're counting that singular statement decades ago implying he's equal to Dormammu). He'd still scale massively below them, his best feats scale to low universal+ as far as I'm aware whereas Dormammu and the Vishanti have plenty of feats that scale well above that (don't forget every Hell-Lord in one roster admitted to being inferior to Dormammu even combined and the side effects of the battles with the Vishanti have affected the multiverse more than once).

Do you rank Dark Strange that high? If you think he's on that level then I'm not going to argue Strange could ever beat someone that strong without prep or plot, I'm just not seeing him there is all. We haven't seen all Dark Strange can do so he could easily be that strong but based on purely what's shown so far I don't interpret his feats on their level.

It's not like Strange just cycles through all of his hax and top spells whenever he's in a confrontation.

Furthermore, What If Strange only showed up in 2 short episodes. He may not have directly shown these powers but I honestly find it hard to believe that he's incapable of them. He was clearly able to contend with a full Infinity Gauntlet Ultron, who very much showed that he knew how to utilize the stones properly. So at the very least, I think we can assume Strange's protection spells would defend against these types of hax.

I wasn't arguing that those are the way's he'd go to beat Dark Strange, I actually agree he could probably resist at least the TP (not so sure about illusion, at least not right away or easily). You had mentioned how much stronger Dark Strange's protection spells are compared to 616 Strange and my point was that having a much more potent spell or type of magic in one area does not automatically make you significantly above someone in their general power level.

Let me put it this way... If Galactus or Dormammu, or even just a non-jobber Odin, popped up in front of Strange, without warning, and immediately tried their absolute damndest to kill him; do you think he'd be able to successfully deal with them, without the help of some heavy duty plot armor?

Definitely not, but I don't think Dark Strange could either, I think he'd do just about as well under the same circumstances.

Obviously, Strange capable of casting very powerful spells during major climax moments for his stories. The whole point of his character is that he exists to defend against things that threaten reality itself.

But I don't think he's meant to be a character that's actually on their level, just a powerful and knowledgeable wizard with the resources to deal with cosmic threats when it's required of him.

If he just walked around with that kind of juice and used it in his normal confrontations, it would really remove a lot of the urgency from... at least half his stories, if not more. Not all of his conflicts involve universal destruction and not every villain who gives him grief is some sort of godly being.

Now, I know I'm not as knowledgeable as you on the character. If we get into a nitty gritty debate of what's an outlier and what's not or how often he displays "x level of power", I probably wouldn't be able to keep up.

But... Based on what I've read from him, the battles I've seen, the way his fights are portrayed, the types of villains and monsters that he occasionally struggles against; I just don't feel like you have to be some sort of galaxy level being, to give Strange a good fight.

I think if Strange were to fight someone like Ainz Ooal Gown, Negima, or Gathel Phrodine, (Neither of which have even explicitly destroyed a planet, much less a galaxy), I can't picture it being portrayed as some sort of casual stomp.

I agree here with pretty much everything you're saying so I really don't think we're off on where we think Strange is at. Honestly I think we just have slightly different perspectives on tiering (around Skyfather level)and where we currently rank Dark Strange.

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Zetsu-San

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@wastelandman:

I wouldn't put Odin there even with his best feats compared to the Visitant's or Dormammu's (unless we're counting that singular statement decades ago implying he's equal to Dormammu). He'd still scale massively below them, his best feats scale to low universal+ as far as I'm aware whereas Dormammu and the Vishanti have plenty of feats that scale well above that (don't forget every Hell-Lord in one roster admitted to being inferior to Dormammu even combined and theside effectsof the battles with the Vishanti have affected the multiverse more than once).

I mean, even Andi seems to flip-flop quite a bit on whether or not she considers Dormammu Universal. So if we're cherry picking Odin's absolute best moments and assuming he's universal, then I don't see why he wouldn't be considered in a similar playing field.

But again, I don't think Odin is consistently Universal, I'd say operates in the Galaxy range when looking at his consistent sort of "character defining" battles and moments.

And yes, Odin most certainly scales well below Dormammu when looking at story context.

Do you rank Dark Strange that high? If you think he's on that level then I'm not going to argue Strange could ever beat someone that strong without prep or plot, I'm just not seeing him there is all. We haven't seen all Dark Strange can do so he could easily be that strong but based on purely what's shown so far I don't interpret his feats on their level.

I think Dark Strange is above Odin or at the very least equal to him.

Like I said, I consider Strange to be a solid step above skyfather level. Odin is already very high end for that tier range, so even if we consider them exactly equals or say Dark Strange is a bit below, it should still be greater than the level 616 Strange is typically at.

Definitely not, but I don't think Dark Strange could either, I think he'd do just about as well under the same circumstances.

  • In the case of Odin, I'd say he can handle it.
  • If it's Dormammu, then I think he'd lose, but he might be able to survive the encounter, depending on what you consider to be consistent for Dormy. Obviously if we're looking at Dormy's feats of burning Eternity and stuff like that, then Strange is definitely doomed.
  • Galactus depends on how fed he is, but it would at least take Galactus at one of his better moments to beat Dark Strange imo.

You had mentioned how much stronger Dark Strange's protection spells are compared to 616 Strange and my point was that having a much more potent spell or type of magic in one area does not automatically make you significantly above someone in their general power level.

But see, I don't feel like writers were thinking in terms of "Strange is really good at this one specific thing and not others". I think they were trying to show off an ultra powerful Strange and to do so they had him directly compete with Ultron. He was able to absorb galaxy+ levels of force and empower his allies to a level where they could not only survive hits from Ultron but also injure him with their own strikes.

Ultron at this point is clearly meant to be a being who wields nigh-universal power. I don't think he can destroy a universe per say (at least not easily), but he's definitely meant to be in that power range. Dark Strange wasn't just fighting him via context, he was directly competing with raw power.

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#30  Edited By WastelandMan

@zetsu-san:

I mean, even Andi seems to flip-flop quite a bit on whether or not she considers Dormammu Universal.

So if we're cherry picking Odin's absolute best moments and assuming he's universal, then I don't see why he wouldn't be considered in a similar playing field.

But again, I don't think Odin is consistently Universal, I'd say operates in the Galaxy range when looking at his consistent sort of "character defining" battles and moments.

And yes, Odin most certainly scales well below Dormammu when looking at story context.

Honestly a little surprised since without even looking I could probably bring to mind at least a dozen feats that would put him there at minimum.

I think Dark Strange is above Odin or at the very least equal to him.

Like I said, I consider Strange to be a solid step above skyfather level. Odin is already very high end for that tier range, so even if we consider them exactly equals or say Dark Strange is a bit below, it should still be greater than the level 616 Strange is typically at.

I don't see him at 616 Odin level. Maybe it's because I consider and allow for more higher ends in that tier (I think having low universal feats are completely fine for high-end Skyfathers). Even scaling him sub universal, I don't think there's enough to confidently say he could even beat that Odin. For instance if you were to debate What If Strange vs 616 Odin what would even your argument be for victory? He absorbed a galaxy exploding so he should have a galaxy+ offensive spell of some kind? That seems too vague and speculative for anyone to get behind.

But see, I don't feel like writers were thinking in terms of "Strange is really good at this one specific thing and not others". I think they were trying to show off an ultra powerful Strange and to do so they had him directly compete with Ultron.

To compete with someone is to imply they have a chance when it's clear Strange never did. What I got from the fight was that, yes his power was being shown off but if you look it's also very clear that Strange only lasted as long because The Watcher and all of the Guardians had prep time with a very specific strategy that went by steps. They were trying to overwhelm Vultron and not allow him to accurately assess the situation and it was working perfectly because he had zero knowledge on Strange. Because of that he was spreading out his attacks and power making them very ineffective and leaving him extremely open to be a punching bag.

You saw it yourself, the instant Vultron knew it was Strange powering the Guardians the fight was over. You don't think that if Vultron had known Strange was powering them from the start the fight wouldn't have instantly started the way it was ending, with Vultron ignoring everyone else and just focusing his power on Strange until he dies?

That's why I really loved the fight because it was a very classic wizard approach to battle, using misdirection and sleight of hand to confound opponents, the same exact way 616 Strange approaches his battles to succeed against far more powerful opponents which is precisely why I think 616 Strange would win even if he's less powerful because he has far greater experience and feats in doing so, against magic entities especially.

He was able to absorb galaxy+ levels of force and empower his allies to a level where they could not only survive hits from Ultron but also injure him with their own strikes.

I'm not 100% certain Strange was actively amping their strikes outside of the Carter instance (Hawkeye's arrow pierced Ultron which wasn't present for a protection spell). Even if he was I wouldn't scale them to galaxy+ when there's no way to gauge the AP outside anything that does visible damage. The fact they were pushing him around means nothing to me because if we consider every street leveler who can knock around a teambuster there'd be a lot of street levelers suddenly with planetary-galaxy AP out there.

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@wastelandman:

Honestly a little surprised since without even looking I could probably bring to mind at least a dozen feats that would put him there at minimum.

I mean, she's not on vine at the moment, but if you want to join my discord server to duke out with her, I can send you an invite. lol

I don't see him at 616 Odin level. Maybe it's because I consider and allow for more higher ends in that tier (I think having low universal feats are completely fine for high-end Skyfathers).

I think it's fine for demonstrating their place in the cosmology and for arguing the conceptual potency of their attacks (I mean even characters who operate at sub-planetary levels occasionally have moments of shaking reality and threatening the universe). If you want to use the feat to argue that they'd be able to harm beings that are in the universal range, then I think that works.

But I don't think it's a good feat in the sense of raw physical power. It's very clear from his history that you don't have to be universal to survive a hit from Odin, even if he's trying to kill you.

In all honesty, even galaxy level feats for Odin are incredibly rare. More often then not, a team of Thor-Surfer level characters is probably enough to give Odin a good fight.

Again, though his galaxy level feats are rare, they are typically done as major character defining story moments; so if that's the level of power you want to interpret him as then I have no issues. But even then, I'd say assuming he's equal to Dark Strange is generous. Not necessarily wrong, but definitely generous.

Even scaling him sub universal, I don't think there's enough to confidently say he could even beat that Odin. For instance if you were to debate What If Strange vs 616 Odin what would even your argument be for victory?

Bind him and absorb the Odin Force is a pretty solid and in-character win-condition. lol

Strange's absorption feats are way better and far more casual than Creel or Desak, and both of them have shown the ability to adapt to the OF in varying degrees. I see no reason why Strange can't strip Odin's power entirely.

He absorbed a galaxy exploding so he should have a galaxy+ offensive spell of some kind? That seems too vague and speculative for anyone to get behind.

Why not? Nothing about this seemed like it was some sort of special obscure spell or that it invoked any sort of third party entity.

He swallowed an entire galaxy exploding attack with his own power. All that energy didn't just disappear, he ate it, it's still inside him. He clearly has enough magic power inside him to destroy a galaxy.

And not only this, but containing that power wasn't a struggle at all, nor did he seem to get any sort of massive amp off of eating the attack. Which suggests that the magic reserves that he already had, were comparable to the attack he just absorbed.

To compete with someone is to imply they have a chance when it's clear Strange never did.

That's a strange way of defining things. If a wizard can vaporize buildings, warp cities, and do all sorts of other "wizardy stuff", but still normal human in stats; is he incapable of "competing" with a spiderman level knight, just because the knight can take the fight into close range and kill him easily, if it's a 1 on 1 duel?

The fact is, Strange was blocking Ultron's attacks, absorbed a massive explosion, and was even able to bind and restrain him for a pretty significant length of time.

You saw it yourself, the instant Vultron knew it was Strange powering the Guardians the fight was over.

Eh? He focused Strange and Strange was withstanding his onslaught. He was so focused on trying to overpower Strange that Carter was able to sneak up on him with the arrow.

Obviously if Strange is by himself, Ultron can put enough pressure that Strange would get placed on the defensive and eventually be overwhelmed due to an inability to counter-attack; but doesn't mean they're not competing.

There's also an endurance factor to think about. The stones probably don't run out of juice, whereas Strange clearly gets tired. But again, that doesn't mean that they can't compete for a time when Strange is in peak condition.

I'm not 100% certain Strange was actively amping their strikes outside of the Carter instance (Hawkeye's arrow pierced Ultron which wasn't present for a protection spell). Even if he was I wouldn't scale them to galaxy+ when there's no way to gauge the AP outside anything that does visible damage.

Thor smashed his arm off and Ultron had to warp the arm back into existence. Gamora also slashed him across the chest and there was a clear glow signifying damage, which forced him to resort to time manipulation.

Then he tried growing and Strange grabbed him, smashed him around a bit, bound him, then started blasting him with energy as he screamed in pain.

Strange was far closer to Ultron here, than you're giving him credit for. I really don't see why you're nitpicking so hard. lol

-----

Anyways, in honor of the "High Tier, Herald, Teambuster, Skyfather" tiering system, I'd define this current set as follows. "Skyfather, Celestial, Elder God, Transcendent". (I know you used Transcendent to describe the tier below skyfather, but I think it makes more sense here, since they're transcending reality and rivaling abstracts in power, but still have an actual body rather than being an entirely conceptual existence)

Going off of this, I'd say.

  • Skyfather - Odin
  • Celestial - Dark Strange
  • Elder God - Uatu
  • Transcendent - Infinite Ultron

Odin would be at the very peak of Skyfather and his more generous interpretations would probably put him more on celestial level. Dark Strange is probably lower end of celestial level.

Infinite Ultron is lower end of transcendent, while 616 Dormammu would probably be at the peak (being able to harm/kill actual abstracts under the right conditions).

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WastelandMan

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#32  Edited By WastelandMan

@zetsu-san:

I mean, she's not on vine at the moment, but if you want to join my discord server to duke out with her, I can send you an invite. lol

Eh it's fine I just didn't expect her to rank him so low. Any reason she left?

I think it's fine for demonstrating their place in the cosmology and for arguing the conceptual potency of their attacks (I mean even characters who operate at sub-planetary levels occasionally have moments of shaking reality and threatening the universe). If you want to use the feat to argue that they'd be able to harm beings that are in the universal range, then I think that works.

But I don't think it's a good feat in the sense of raw physical power. It's very clear from his history that you don't have to be universal to survive a hit from Odin, even if he's trying to kill you.

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, that their potential power is ultimately universal not that each of his attacks are universal, that'd be silly.

In all honesty, even galaxy level feats for Odin are incredibly rare.

I'm not a big reader on his lore, but even I know for a fact he has at least 3 legit galaxy level feats, 2/3 of them being multi-galaxy and inadvertent, all of them above Dark Strange's, none of them even his universal outliers, so just how many more galaxy+ level feats does he need exactly before it's not "rare?"

More often then not, a team of Thor-Surfer level characters is probably enough to give Odin a good fight.

Morals on, sure. If he's going all out then that team would have to be pretty massive and stacked.

Again, though his galaxy level feats are rare, they are typically done as major character defining story moments; so if that's the level of power you want to interpret him as then I have no issues.

That's the level of power I think he has when going all out which, like you mentioned, generally happens during critical points in the narrative, but the context of those critical points are also the exact reason he's going all out in the first place; He's fighting people that justify summoning that level of power. Why on Earth would Odin summon a Galaxy-Universal busting energies to deal with anyone significantly below that level.

It's the exact reason why Dr. Strange "struggles" with lesser tier characters all the time. He's mentioned multiple times how he holds back his power and he's once explicitly stated he had to leave Earth before cutting loose and unleashing his energies.

But even then, I'd say assuming he's equal to Dark Strange is generous. Not necessarily wrong, but definitely generous.

Like I mentioned, each of his specifically galaxy level feats are expressly multi-galaxy, and he still has his universal+ outliers, so how would that be generous when Dark Strange's best quantifiable feat is galaxy level? (Universal+ shielding/barriers is something 616 Strange has done multiple times and far better, one as recent as last week lol).

Bind him

Strongest he's bound was a heavily dazed/stunned Ultron (after most of the battle and prep happened) and only for seconds.

and absorb the Odin Force is a pretty solid and in-character win-condition. lol

The most he's absorbed is a galaxy whereas the Odin force has allowed Odin to bust galaxies on accident and perform those moments of power you mentioned that scale massively above that. Strange absorbed that galaxy casually so clearly it's not his limit but it's entirely speculation what his limit is past that, at least to the level you're suggesting imo.

Strange's absorption feats are way better and far more casual than Creel

The same Creel who absorbed a Cosmic Cube and some magic to beat up Dormammu. He also didn't just absorb the power from Odin but all of Asgaard. His absorption powers are honestly pretty cartoonish whether it's a high or low showing.

or Desak

I don't know anything about the instance you're referring to but even assuming it's a legit anti-feat, that's just a singular example.

and both of them have shown the ability to adapt to the OF in varying degrees. I see no reason why Strange can't strip Odin's power entirely.

Absorption is entirely different to power stripping, that's an ability Dark Strange hasn't proven he can do. If you're arguing he'd absorb Odin, again, that's a being more powerful than he's ever absorbed before.

Why not? Nothing about this seemed like it was some sort of special obscure spell or that it invoked any sort of third party entity.

He swallowed an entire galaxy exploding attack with his own power. All that energy didn't just disappear, he ate it, it's still inside him. He clearly has enough magic power inside him to destroy a galaxy.

And not only this, but containing that power wasn't a struggle at all, nor did he seem to get any sort of massive amp off of eating the attack. Which suggests that the magic reserves that he already had, were comparable to the attack he just absorbed.

That's never been in question but having power reserves is not even close to the same as the amount of AP you can have in an attack (Sentry and the million exploding sons) especially with skill based techniques (perfect example, Jinchuriki from Naruto have all absorbed mountain-country level energy reserves but their AP vary wildly based on techniques/skill). 616 Strange has some obscene power reserves himself and none of his AP scales to it. If we're going to base people's power levels on how much energy they can absorb or have on inside them then 616 Strange, while massively weakened, absorbed what was outright called a magic supernova and carried on about his day yet I don't think he's going around able to casually bust solar systems even at full strength.

That's a strange way of defining things. If a wizard can vaporize buildings, warp cities, and do all sorts of other "wizardy stuff", but still normal human in stats; is he incapable of "competing" with a spiderman level knight, just because the knight can take the fight into close range and kill him easily, if it's a 1 on 1 duel?

I said Strange can't compete with Vultron because he could never possibly win 1v1, Strange and the Watcher confirmed the Guardians won the only way they could have. The wizard in your hypothetical could potentially compete with Spider-Man and vice-versa because both has a chance at victory (depending on the battlefield and starting distance).

Eh? He focused Strange and Strange was withstanding his onslaught. He was so focused on trying to overpower Strange that Carter was able to sneak up on him with the arrow.

Obviously if Strange is by himself, Ultron can put enough pressure that Strange would get placed on the defensive and eventually be overwhelmed due to an inability to counter-attack;but doesn't mean they're not competing.

There's also an endurance factor to think about. The stones probably don't run out of juice, whereas Strange clearly gets tired. But again, that doesn't mean that they can't compete for a time when Strange is in peak condition.

Events played out exactly as it did to win meaning there is a 0% chance of victory otherwise for the Guardians even with prep yet alone Strange by himself. What competition in existence doesn't possess a win condition for one of the parties?

Thor smashed his arm off and Ultron had to warp the arm back into existence. Gamora also slashed him across the chest and there was a clear glow signifying damage, which forced him to resort to time manipulation.

Then he tried growing and Strange grabbed him, smashed him around a bit, bound him, then started blasting him with energy as he screamed in pain.

Strange was far closer to Ultron here, than you're giving him credit for. I really don't see why you're nitpicking so hard. lol

A 0% chance at victory (even with prep + help + full knowledge) sounds like I'm giving him just the perfect amount of credit.

I mean, he was impressive as hell but I'm not willing to jump on board him being on the level of anything on 616 cosmology just yet.

Anyways, in honor of the "High Tier, Herald, Teambuster, Skyfather" tiering system, I'd define this current set as follows. "Skyfather, Celestial, Elder God, Transcendent". (I know you used Transcendent to describe the tier below skyfather, but I think it makes more sense here, since they're transcending reality and rivaling abstracts in power, but still have an actual body rather than being an entirely conceptual existence)

Going off of this, I'd say.

  • Skyfather - Odin
  • Celestial - Dark Strange
  • Elder God - Uatu
  • Transcendent - Infinite Ultron

Odin would be at the very peak of Skyfather and his more generous interpretations would probably put him more on celestial level. Dark Strange is probably lower end of celestial level.

Infinite Ultron is lower end of transcendent, while 616 Dormammu would probably be at the peak (being able to harm/kill actual abstracts under the right conditions).

I'd agree with it except for Dark Strange. I think we're just really interpreting his power differently here lol

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@wastelandman:

Eh it's fine I just didn't expect her to rank him so low. Any reason she left?

It seems she currently considers him to be universal but thinks his feats against various abstracts are outliers. lol

She had some personal stuff going on.

I'm not a big reader on his lore, but even I know for a fact he has at least 3 legit galaxy level feats, 2/3 of them being multi-galaxy and inadvertent, all of them above Dark Strange's, none of them even his universal outliers, so just how many more galaxy+ level feats does he need exactly before it's not "rare?"

With how many appearances Odin has, that's really not a lot. Especially when he has far more moments of operating below that range. Again, I agree that these are major story moments that should take precedent over his lesser showings.

As for being "more impressive" than Strange's feat, I don't agree. Strange straight up swallowed a Galaxy+ level attack. Literally took it inside of his body.

Furthermore Ultron's statement of "I can destroy galaxies with a thought, why can't I kill you" leads me to believe that he was already hitting them with Galaxy+ level forces, and that the attack he attempted to perform was significantly greater than that by a massive amount.

That's the level of power I think he has when going all out which, like you mentioned, generally happens during critical points in the narrative, but the context of those critical points are also the exact reason he's going all out in the first place; He's fighting people that justify summoning that level of power. Why on Earth would Odin summon a Galaxy-Universal busting energies to deal with anyone significantly below that level.

It's the exact reason why Dr. Strange "struggles" with lesser tier characters all the time. He's mentioned multiple times how he holds back his power and he's once explicitly stated he had to leave Earth before cutting loose and unleashing his energies.

That's thing. This version of Strange doesn't appear to need to wait for "critical points in the narrative". He can absorb a galaxy+ level attack, casually. He can amp others to deal with Galaxy+ forces, casually. He was able to restrain and cause intense pain to a character who was shattering spacetime across the multiverse with raw strength/brute force.

Like I mentioned, each of his specifically galaxy level feats are expressly multi-galaxy, and he still has his universal+ outliers, so how would that be generous when Dark Strange's best quantifiable feat is galaxy level? (Universal+ shielding/barriers is something 616 Strange has done multiple times and far better, one as recent as last week lol).

Again, Ultron's dialogue suggests that he was already using galaxy+ level forces before this instance. Ultron was attempting an even stronger attack in order to wipe them all out at once, and Strange ate the entire thing, casually.

While I originally dismissed Universal shielding/barrier feat as something more conceptual (similar to shaking reality) and good for countering spatial-destruction hax, when paired with the fact that he can protect a group of people from a Ultron, who was casually shattering holes across reality and destabilizing the multiverse with raw brute force; I'd say the this becomes a much more of a statement of the raw power behind the shields.

Again, you're taking high end feats performed during climax moments and comparing them to something that this Strange does casually and easily.

Strongest he's bound was a heavily dazed/stunned Ultron (after most of the battle and prep happened) and only for seconds.

The fact that Strange was able to buff a team of people to a level where they can heavily daze/stun an entity who deals in galaxy++++ forces and shatters spacetime across the multiverse with brute strength, shows the level of power that this Strange operates on.

The same Creel who absorbed a Cosmic Cube and some magic to beat up Dormammu. He also didn't just absorb the power from Odin but all of Asgaard. His absorption powers are honestly pretty cartoonish whether it's a high or low showing.

He absorbed energy from a cosmic cube and converted his body into that type of energy, he didn't absorb the cube itself. The cube was still there. Also it's not like he absorbed a powerful blast reality destroying blast from the cube either.

Absorbing actual galaxy destroying energies from an infinity gauntlet >>>>>>>>>>>> Absorbing energy from a cosmic cube in a neutral/inanimate state. You don't even have to be an energy absorber to harness cosmic cube power to begin with.

And he didn't absorb magic to beat up Dormammu. He turned himself into a giant magic absorbing rock. IIRC, that same rock was made into bullets that were able to hurt Dormammu, so yea. A high tier made entirely out of said rock should be able to do the trick as well IMO. It's not like he had Dormammu levels of energy inside his body (Or if he did, it's because the rock was helping him contain it).

Absorption is entirely different to power stripping, that's an ability Dark Strange hasn't proven he can do. If you're arguing he'd absorb Odin, again, that's a being more powerful than he's ever absorbed before.

Strange was absorbing entire magical creatures into his body. I'd say that's akin to power stripping.

That's never been in question but having power reserves is not even close to the same as the amount of AP you can have in an attack (Sentry and the million exploding sons) especially with skill based techniques (perfect example, Jinchuriki from Naruto have all absorbed mountain-country level energy reserves but their AP vary wildly based on techniques/skill).

I'm not under the impression that What If Strange is supposed to be operating under this sort of "magic system" where you need "precise spells" to access internal power at "x level". I think writers just saw this as "he's really really powerful, and he can absorb and dish out said power as shields, blasts, etc."

It's 2 episodes so they didn't have time to flesh out every facet of what Strange is capable of, but I think it's very clear that he's intended to be a Skyfather+ level being. Not just a sorcerer with some really powerful hyper specialized spells under his repertoire, but an actual entity on that level.

Again, I don't understand why you're so against this. lol

I said Strange can't compete with Vultron because he could never possibly win 1v1, Strange and the Watcher confirmed the Guardians won the only way they could have. The wizard in your hypothetical could potentially compete with Spider-Man and vice-versa because both has a chance at victory (depending on the battlefield and starting distance).

This fight may not have been "1v1" but the rest of the team were for all intents and purposes, merely extensions of his own power. None of them had any natural power to do anything to Ultron. Not even Party Thor showed anything even remotely close to this tier level. It was literally all Strange. Strange is who allowed them to tank attacks from Ultron. Strange was who allowed them to stagger him and inflict actual injuries.

As for the hypothetical, the intent was that the Wizard has 0 chance against the spiderman level knight. At least not without conditions being heavily lopsided in the wizard's favor in order to give him the ability to actually use his magic without getting blitzed. Yes, if you move the starting distance further and further away, then the Wizard will end up winning, but that's not the point. The point is that a character can be massively more powerful than their opponent yet still have "no chance of victory". Thus it's a horrible way of judging power levels.

Events played out exactly as it did to win meaning there is a 0% chance of victory otherwise for the Guardians even with prep yet alone Strange by himself. What competition in existence doesn't possess a win condition for one of the parties?

Again, the team were all just extensions of Strange's power at that point. It's not like he prepared some ritual to gather power in advance, the fight itself was impromptu, they just had a general idea of the tactics they needed to employ ahead of time.

When a character is able to withstand a full power blast from another character, for an extended period of time, only getting overwhelmed due to fatigue; then I'd say they are absolutely competing.

I mean, he was impressive as hell but I'm not willing to jump on board him being on the level of anything on 616 cosmology just yet.

You've already admitted that you don't think it requires planet busting power to give 616 Strange a good fight.

For Dark Strange, I'd say it absolutely requires someone to be legitimate galaxy level to challenge him.

If you think a sudden onslaught from a character in the galaxy ranges can overwhelm 616 Strange, then I don't see why you wouldn't agree that Dark Strange would overwhelm 616 in a sudden death match.

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@zetsu-san:

It seems she currently considers him to be universal but thinks his feats against various abstracts are outliers. lol

She had some personal stuff going on.

Ah, that's understandable.

I read through your post and it's clear where we fundamentally disagree are on subjective interpretation of feats and how the fight went down, and I'd rather not turn this into a debate thread anyway. If you got from your readings that show Odin directly contradicting him being at the level I have him that's fine, but I'm not seeing anything like that from what I've read. And if you consider a 0% chance of victory any sort of "competition" then I can't change your mind on that either lol

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Zetsu-San

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