STOP BAGGING ON CYBORG

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#101 Edited by Captain13 (4771 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro:

@Captain13 said:

Wolverine is an X-Man who has sucessfully tranistion to the Avengers.

Spider-Man is a solo hero who has sucessfully transitioned into both the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

What's your point, dude?

He adds a new dynamic to the team instead of repeating the same old stuff. In less than a decade he'll be an iconic Justice Leaguer.

I love how you pointed out 2 Avengers who most people think SHOULDN'T be on the team to prove your point.

@Captain13 said:

Okay, so you want an ongoing comic for Cyborg but you're not supporting him in the Justice League? You're shooting yourself in the foot, man. The longer that people complain, he longer DC will wait to release a solo. They want him to do well, so they're not going to embarrass themselves by putting him in book before fans are ready. And who cares if it is for Affirmative Action or Race? I'd rather DC start fixing the race issue than ignore it for another 70+ years. I applaud them for this. As a Black man, I'm happy to be represented by the heroic, amazing Cyborg.

How am I shooting myself in the foot? An ongoing would give Cyborg his own stories and along with it his own significance away from the league.Something the rest of the team has.They are all sharing the spotlight in this book, but because they are all more popular than Cyborg, of course the other members will get more attention and do more in the book that he will and on top of it they get to be stars of their own books.Without Justice League Cyborg doesn't matter.He's not going to gain popularity by being overshadowed in a team book. War Machine appears in Secret Avengers,appeared in the Iron Man film and had his own ongoing yet he's still playing catch up with Storm.You think Cyborg is going to fair better by simply being a member of the league? Black Men have been members of the league before.It doesn't matter that Cyborg is now a founding member because people only care about what you did as a member not who was there first.I care that it's afrrimative action because it's phony attempt at selling a black character.

It's shooting yourself in the foot because you're complaining about Cyborg being in the JL. If you want a solo, you need to support him being promoted. Characters don't get solo titles because of complaints. They get solo titles because of fan SUPPORT. That's the point I was trying to make about shooting yourself in the foot.

Furthermore, DC won't release a solo title if they think that fans won't support it (due to whining). They would rather not release a solo at all, then release a solo for their most controversial member only to have it fail, mkay?

And a lot of people like Spidey and Wolverine as Avengers--a lot of people wished they showed up in the Avengers films.

No Caption Provided
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#102 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

Comics won't evolve because the readers expect the same things, even after a universe has been rebooted. That is one of my problems with comics, and part of why it is hard for some people to take them seriously. If you don't like Cybprg being a founding member, go cry about it. It isn't going to change. And to you people saying 'he is useless on the JLA' or 'he was more useful on TT than he is now', that is among the dumbest things I have ever read on this site. The members of the Titans have THE SAME powers as those of the JLA (minus GL). How is he less useful here than he was with the Titans? That is just not a smart thing to say, and leads me to believe that you do have contempt for this character. You want MMH, read Stormwatch. He's doing well there. It hasn't even been A YEAR, and you people are going nuts.

i just want to read good stories. if they make cyborg an interesting character then he might become my favorite.

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#103 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain13 said:

It's shooting yourself in the foot because you're complaining about Cyborg being in the JL. If you want a solo, you need to support him being promoted. Characters don't get solo titles because of complaints. They get solo titles because of fan SUPPORT. That's the point I was trying to make about shooting yourself in the foot.

Furthermore, DC won't release a solo title if they think that fans won't support it (due to whining). They would rather not release a solo at all, then release a solo for their most controversial member only to have it fail, mkay?

1.The point you're making about me shooting myself in the foot is invalid though.I'm not complaining about Cyborg being in the JL.This actually has nothing to do with Cyborg.My problem is with DC Comics.I don't feel like they have any intention of making Cyborg a popular character.They had 30 years to give him an ongoing.He was in a popular cartoon show when he was a Titan..why not give him an ongoing then? You really think DC cares that we are complaining? They don't, if they don't give him an ongoing it's because they never expected him to sell in the first place.
 
2.DC won't give Cyborg a solo book because they know Black characters don't sell.There was nobody whining when Black Lightning had a book and it didn't sell.The reason they don't sell as DC has already realized with their female characters is, their black characters have no significance in the DCU and they never have.If DC wants us or anyone who is new to comics to care enough about Cyborg to grow his popularity, they need to let him stand on his own.He needs to matter to the DCU without being a team member.Why do you think Hawkeye or Black Widow can't ever hold an ongoing for at least 20 issues? They are insignificant compared to the other Avengers.Nothing they've done outside Avengers, has really mattered to anyone but them.The events in their books don't matter to the overall Marvel Universe.
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#104 Edited by Captain13 (4771 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Captain13 said:

It's shooting yourself in the foot because you're complaining about Cyborg being in the JL. If you want a solo, you need to support him being promoted. Characters don't get solo titles because of complaints. They get solo titles because of fan SUPPORT. That's the point I was trying to make about shooting yourself in the foot.

Furthermore, DC won't release a solo title if they think that fans won't support it (due to whining). They would rather not release a solo at all, then release a solo for their most controversial member only to have it fail, mkay?

1.The point you're making about me shooting myself in the foot is invalid though.I'm not complaining about Cyborg being in the JL.This actually has nothing to do with Cyborg.My problem is with DC Comics.I don't feel like they have any intention of making Cyborg a popular character.They had 30 years to give him an ongoing.He was in a popular cartoon show when he was a Titan..why not give him an ongoing then? You really think DC cares that we are complaining? They don't, if they don't give him an ongoing it's because they never expected him to sell in the first place. 2.DC won't give Cyborg a solo book because they know Black characters don't sell.There was nobody whining when Black Lightning had a book and it didn't sell.The reason they don't sell as DC has already realized with their female characters is, their black characters have no significance in the DCU and they never have.If DC wants us or anyone who is new to comics to care enough about Cyborg to grow his popularity, they need to let him stand on his own.He needs to matter to the DCU without being a team member.Why do you think Hawkeye or Black Widow can't ever hold an ongoing for at least 20 issues? They are insignificant compared to the other Avengers.Nothing they've done outside Avengers, has really mattered to anyone but them.The events in their books don't matter to the overall Marvel Universe.

It's only been 9 issues, 6 of which have been the origin of the team. Given more time, he'll probably shine. I'm optimistic.

And if Black characters can't sell, why is Miles Morales/Ultimate Spider-Man consistently one of the top 25 selling books in the business every month? Just look at the Diamond sales charts.

Why did Jason Rusch/Firestorm hold an ongoing for 35 issues despite it's mediocrity?

Why did Al Simmons/Spawn have a book for over 200 issues?

Clearly you feel burned. I'm sad that your hope has dwindled to such a low level.

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#105 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

vance astro has an excellence about the state of comics in general and black superheroes. maybe they need more exposure in television and movies.

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#106 Edited by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain13 said:

I'm optimistic.

I'm not,because other black characters have been given better chances to shine and nothing came of it.I don't see what make Cyborg different.It's just hope against all evidence of what has happened in several similar instances. 
 

@Captain13

said:

And if Black characters can't sell, why is Miles Morales/Ultimate Spider-Man consistently one of the top 25 selling books in the business every month? Just look at the Diamond sales charts.

Maybe you read the charts wrong.Ultimate Spider-Man hasn't sold in the top 25 the entire time Miles Morales was Spider-Man.There are books that are now cancelled that debuted at higher #'s than top 25 and have appeared in the top 25 alot more than Morales has. 
 

@Captain13

said:

Why did Jason Rusch/Firestorm hold an ongoing for 35 issues despite it's mediocrity?

Why do you think this is an accomplishment or that it proves black characters sell? Harley Quinn is a villains sidekick and her ongoing was more issues than that..
 

@Captain13

said:

Why did Al Simmons/Spawn have a book for over 200 issues?

I was talking more about Marvel and DC.They own all of the most iconic superheroes.Al Simmons had less to fight with for spotlight at Image than someone like Cyborg would at DC. 
 
  @Captain13 said:

Clearly you feel burned. I'm sad that your hope has dwindled to such a low level.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean but I don't base my opinion on what I hope.I base my opinion on what I see going on in the industry.
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#107 Edited by Captain13 (4771 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Captain13 said:

I'm optimistic.

I'm not,because other black characters have been given better chances to shine and nothing came of it.I don't see what make Cyborg different.It's just hope against all evidence of what has happened in several similar instances.

@Captain13

said:

And if Black characters can't sell, why is Miles Morales/Ultimate Spider-Man consistently one of the top 25 selling books in the business every month? Just look at the Diamond sales charts.

Maybe you read the charts wrong.Ultimate Spider-Man hasn't sold in the top 25 the entire time Miles Morales was Spider-Man.There are books that are now cancelled that debuted at higher #'s than top 25 and have appeared in the top 25 alot more than Morales has.

@Captain13

said:

Why did Jason Rusch/Firestorm hold an ongoing for 35 issues despite it's mediocrity?

Why do you think this is an accomplishment or that it proves black characters sell? Harley Quinn is a villains sidekick and her ongoing was more issues than that..

@Captain13

said:

Why did Al Simmons/Spawn have a book for over 200 issues?

I was talking more about Marvel and DC.They own all of the most iconic superheroes.Al Simmons had less to fight with for spotlight at Image than someone like Cyborg would at DC.

@Captain13 said:

Clearly you feel burned. I'm sad that your hope has dwindled to such a low level.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean but I don't base my opinion on what I hope.I base my opinion on what I see going on in the industry.

I'm not gonna believe that he can't hold an ongoing until I see it happen. Despite what has happened in the past, this is a completely different case. At the end of the day, DCnU Cyborg is a completely different character to all the Black Characters of the past. Because until I see it happen, it's all speculation.

To be clear:

speculation: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.

All anyone can do right now is speculate. I'd much rather speculate toward the side of optimism. Someone has to be that 1 in the one-in-a-million chance.

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#108 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain13 said:

I'm not gonna believe that he can't hold an ongoing until I see it happen. Despite what has happened in the past, this is a completely different case. At the end of the day, DCnU Cyborg is a completely different character to all the Black Characters of the past. Because until I see it happen, it's all speculation.

To be clear:

speculation: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.

All anyone can do right now is speculate. I'd much rather speculate toward the side of optimism. Someone has to be that 1 in the one-in-a-million chance.

It's not speculation.This is reality.The idea that Cyborg will just randomly sell when other characters have failed to do it with better opportunities, isn't logical.It's false hope.How can you be optimistic when DC is clearly not making an honest effort.Until they decide that are going to make Cyborg a valid rival for the characters he's in the company of..he will never sell.That's not just true for black characters that's any character.Female characters don't sell either..but you know why Storm (whom happens to be Black) is more popular than all of Marvel's other superheroines? She matters more to her team than the rest do.You think Cyborg matters to the JL? They could replace him in a second.
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#109 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

@Lvenger said:

@Captain13: You've made a very strong case about your argument which you're obviously passionate about. I remember your proposed redesign for Cyborg which shows your great interest in the character. However at the end of the day whilst I respect your opinion mine still hasn't changed that Cyborg being a founding member is strange to me. As such we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter. Oh and a few more things.

Firstly I don't blame Cyborg for the continuity issue as Donna and Wally are absent as well. Secondly I am not of the Cyborg hating viewpoint. After Dick Grayson, he was my favourite of Wolfman's Teen Titans. Thirdly, I am liking Cyborg's role 5 years on but I still don't believe Cyborg being a founder fits with his continuity. Finally, I'm only 18 and I still found Wolfman's run to be a fresh, mature take on comic book writing.

I feel exactly the same way, and I'm 19, fyi.

Glad we share the same viewpoint. I am nearly 19 admittedly, my birthday's the 9th June but I'll be revising that day so I won't be able to celebrate it that much.

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#110 Edited by Onemoreposter (4365 posts) - - Show Bio

@202122 said:

Yes Cyborg will always be at his best amongst the ranks of the Teen Titans but i think he makes a good member of the JLA. Maybe if so many people stopped bitching they could enjoy him. He isn't my favourite member on this particular version of the JLA but i don't think he's at his full potential yet.

Anyway this is just me standing up for Victor Stone!

No Caption Provided

How IDIOTIC of me. If I just stop b#tching THEN I can enjoy a character who shouldn't be a JLA charter member. THANX!!

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#111 Edited by Captain13 (4771 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Captain13 said:

I'm not gonna believe that he can't hold an ongoing until I see it happen. Despite what has happened in the past, this is a completely different case. At the end of the day, DCnU Cyborg is a completely different character to all the Black Characters of the past. Because until I see it happen, it's all speculation.

To be clear:

speculation: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.

All anyone can do right now is speculate. I'd much rather speculate toward the side of optimism. Someone has to be that 1 in the one-in-a-million chance.

It's not speculation.This is reality.The idea that Cyborg will just randomly sell when other characters have failed to do it with better opportunities, isn't logical.It's false hope.How can you be optimistic when DC is clearly not making an honest effort.Until they decide that are going to make Cyborg a valid rival for the characters he's in the company of..he will never sell.That's not just true for black characters that's any character.Female characters don't sell either..but you know why Storm (whom happens to be Black) is more popular than all of Marvel's other superheroines? She matters more to her team than the rest do.You think Cyborg matters to the JL? They could replace him in a second.

With time, he will matter because he'll be more developed. And it's not a reality if it hasn't happened. =P

I see the same things that you do, but I interprete those things as DC trying to get fan support for the character. I have evidence of this from c2e2:

"Johns mentioned the future plans for Cyborg. "Something we want to do with Cyborg is build him up," he said. "Everyone talks about when the Cyborg book comes. We'll definitely do one. It's like Aquaman, we tried to build the groundwork. We want to do it with the best talent we can.""

From Here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=38169

Quote starts at the second to last paragraph.

Booyah!
Booyah!

HOW YOU LIKE ME NOW?

@Onemoreposter said:

@202122 said:

Yes Cyborg will always be at his best amongst the ranks of the Teen Titans but i think he makes a good member of the JLA. Maybe if so many people stopped bitching they could enjoy him. He isn't my favourite member on this particular version of the JLA but i don't think he's at his full potential yet.

Anyway this is just me standing up for Victor Stone!

How IDIOTIC of me. If I just stop b#tching THEN I can enjoy a character who shouldn't be a JLA charter member. THANX!!

You mad bro?

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#112 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain13 said:

With time, he will matter because he'll be more developed. 

You can keep believing that.I for one have no faith in DC.I'll believe it when it happens.
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#113 Posted by daredevil21134 (15932 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Captain13 said:

With time, he will matter because he'll be more developed.

You can keep believing that.I for one have no faith in DC.I'll believe it when it happens.

I think it all comes down to the creative teams.I think if Geoff Johns wants a Cyborg solo to work he can make it work

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#114 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23389 posts) - - Show Bio

Everything about the New 52 sucks.  
 
Including Cyborg and his being on the JLA.

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#115 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@daredevil21134 said:

I think it all comes down to the creative teams.I think if Geoff Johns wants a Cyborg solo to work he can make it work

I think it comes down to marketing gimmicks.Writing a book well isn't enough anymore.Marvel can write a duds all year and still keep up with and or top DC on the sales charts.Johns has always had the luxury of writing characters that were well established before he even touched them.Let's see how well he fairs when he has to build that characters popularity from the ground up.
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#116 Posted by daredevil21134 (15932 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Everything about the New 52 sucks. Including Cyborg and his being on the JLA.

I actually think I agree with you on this

@Vance Astro said:

@daredevil21134 said:

I think it all comes down to the creative teams.I think if Geoff Johns wants a Cyborg solo to work he can make it work

I think it comes down to marketing gimmicks.Writing a book well isn't enough anymore.Marvel can write a duds all year and still keep up with and or top DC on the sales charts.Johns has always had the luxury of writing characters that were well established before he even touched them.Let's see how well he fairs when he has to build that characters popularity from the ground up.

I guess we'll see

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#117 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Everything about the New 52 sucks. Including Cyborg and his being on the JLA.

Even Snyder's Batman? That hasn't really been affected by the New 52.

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#118 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23389 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lvenger said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Everything about the New 52 sucks. Including Cyborg and his being on the JLA.

Even Snyder's Batman? That hasn't really been affected by the New 52.

Snyder's Batman is just watered down Morrison's Batman. I really don't care about it.
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#119 Posted by Raiiyn (3682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_: =)

@Lvenger said:

@Captain13: The basic problem I have is the same one as ReVamp's. To me Cyborg belongs on the Titans. Making him a founding member of the League seems a bit disrespectful to the character's history. I wouldn't mind several of Wolfman's Titans advancing to Justice League membership after the 5 year time skip like they were in James Robinson's Justice League run but making Cyborg a founding League member given the fact it confuses his history with the Titans doesn't seem right to me. Plus if what you're saying is true about his age at the time of the first Justice League arc being 16-18 it seems weird for a high school student to be a part of an adult superhuman team.

And apparently Wolfman's Titans still occured to some extent according to Red Hood and the Outlaws which is confusing to me. Personally if I were putting an ethnic minority member onto the New 52 Justice League, I would have thought it would be more appropriate to choose one of DC's earlier black superheroes like Black Lightning. His powers add diversity plus agewise he would be more suited to being a Justice Leaguer.

Exactly.

@Captain13 said:

@Gambit1024: @Lvenger said:

@Captain13: The basic problem I have is the same one as ReVamp's. To me Cyborg belongs on the Titans. Making him a founding member of the League seems a bit disrespectful to the character's history. I wouldn't mind several of Wolfman's Titans advancing to Justice League membership after the 5 year time skip like they were in James Robinson's Justice League run but making Cyborg a founding League member given the fact it confuses his history with the Titans doesn't seem right to me.

Look, I'm 20 years old, and I'm turning 21 soon. I tried reading Wolfman's run, and I find the writing heavily outdated. I couldn't get into it. The only stuff that I found remotely interesting is the Trigon stuff--and I liked it only conceptually. I understand that this run means a lot to a lot of people, but it doesn't mean anything to me. I'm guessing that it doesn't mean much to most of the readers in my generation. Truth is that what is relevant to you, may not be relevant to future generations. That's why revamps happen. Things need to be made fresh again.

It happens all the time. Not very many people complain about the Parallax retcon, or the COIE retcons, or the Red Hood Retcon, or the Arthur getting his hand back post Flashpoint retcon, or the Wonder Woman retcon in the 1960s that let her fly, or the 1001 retcons to Superman's origin. No one says that those retcons are disrespectful to those heroes.

Cyborg is essentially a hero. He doesn't have to be a Titan. And that doesn't even matter since he was a Titan in the DCnU along with Dick, Kory, Roy, and possibly Gar.

And Cyborg being a JL member and Teen Tiatan does not confuse the history of the DC Universe. He was on both teams simultaneously like Wolverine and Spider-Man. What confuses the history is the fact that all the JLA members have been de-aged and Donna and Wally and Raven don't exist.

Had they existed, then the Perez stories would still be around, mkay?

@Lvenger said:

@Captain13: Plus if what you're saying is true about his age at the time of the first Justice League arc being 16-18 it seems weird for a high school student to be a part of an adult superhuman team.

And the Justice League was the only known superhuman team at the time other than the secret Storm Watch. Cyborg didn't get an invitation to join older heroes, he founded the group WITH them. And as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, Superman may not have gone to college at the beginning of Justice League so he's probably also 18 at the start of the story. Wonder Woman could have left paradise Island at 18. Hal may have been in the air force and turned into Green Lantern that same year--also 18. Bruce became Batman at age 20. Aquaman was about 18-20 as established in Aquaman issue 8. Flash's age isn't clarified, but he's got to be around that age too. They are all about the same age. The biggest age difference that I can see is if Superman DID go to college, then during the founding of the Justice League, he was 22 and Cyborg was 18. That's not a very big age difference.

Also, in several incarnations of the Justice League such as the Bruce Timm cartoon and New Frontier, Flash is a little bit younger and inexperienced. So who cares if Cyborg plays that role this time around? He's not written to be incompetent (so far).

@Lvenger said:

And apparently Wolfman's Titans still occured to some extent according to Red Hood and the Outlaws which is confusing to me. Personally if I were putting an ethnic minority member onto the New 52 Justice League, I would have thought it would be more appropriate to choose one of DC's earlier black superheroes like Black Lightning. His powers add diversity plus agewise he would be more suited to being a Justice Leaguer.

That's a continuity issue, not a Cyborg being on the JLA issue. He could have been on both teams at the same time. The only reason that Wolfman/Perez's run couldn't happen is the missing Wally and missing Donna. It's not a Cyborg-being-a-founder-related continuity issue.

Finally, if you are so tied to the Wolfman/Perez run that you can't accept Cyborg as a founder, then there's really nothing I can say. It's a new universe with a new continuity. It's comics--it happens. There are new universes and new interpretations popping up all the time. I just happen to love the idea of Cyborg being on the Team.

Awesome
Awesome

A few things. One, Cyborg is the only member of the team who no one has ever heard about in the DCnU. Batman and Green Lantern go to find Superman. Wonderwoman has been around. Cyborg is completely new, his origin is in the JL book and he was introduced poorly. IMO, he is the only founding member who wasn't actually a superhero yet.

Second, you are making assumptions on age. We cannot say how old the other members are, other then the fact that most of them have 'grown up' jobs and we know for a fact that Cyborg is in high school. To me, there is still a huge maturity gap there and I do not feel that he fits as a believable founder of the JL.

Thirdly, I am not hating on him being on the JL. I like Cyborg as a JL member. I do NOT like him as founder. I find it ridiculous.

@AtPhantom said:

@fodigg said:

I will agree that it's ridiculous he doesn't have a solo title. If he's a founding justice leaguer, he should get the founder treatment.

This is part of the problem I have with the new Cyborg (Other than the fact that he's a kid in a grown up team). Not that other heroes have titles, but that other heroes are established. That's what JLA is, established heroes who have experience and know how it works, banding together to defeat threats none of them individually can handle. Cyborg isn't. Cyborg, in the new continuity, exists solely for the purpose of being in the League. He has no story outside of it, everything he has, everything he is, is tied to the League. If it weren't for the League, he wouldn't exist either. That's not the kind of characters the League should have. If you want to exist solely for the purpose of being on a team, join the X-men or Doom Patrol. League should be about characters who already have stories of their own.

Of course given how horribad Johns' writing has been so far, Cyborg doesn't have much of a story within the League either, and that only makes it worse.

QFT

Took the words right out of my mouth ;P

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#120 Edited by Captain13 (4771 posts) - - Show Bio

@Raiiyn said:

A few things. One, Cyborg is the only member of the team who no one has ever heard about in the DCnU. Batman and Green Lantern go to find Superman. Wonderwoman has been around. Cyborg is completely new, his origin is in the JL book and he was introduced poorly. IMO, he is the only founding member who wasn't actually a superhero yet.

Second, you are making assumptions on age. We cannot say how old the other members are, other then the fact that most of them have 'grown up' jobs and we know for a fact that Cyborg is in high school. To me, there is still a huge maturity gap there and I do not feel that he fits as a believable founder of the JL.

Thirdly, I am not hating on him being on the JL. I like Cyborg as a JL member. I do NOT like him as founder. I find it ridiculous.

What are you talking about? No one in the DCnU has heard about Cyborg? In the Voodoo series (issue 5), Cyborg was called one of the DC universes 5 biggest threats by the government along with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern. With his access to all information, ability to teleport anywhere, and strong physical stats--it's easy to see why.

No Caption Provided

If you're talking about during the origin arc, he wasn't a superhero yet. So what? In some interpretations Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter don't become real Superheroes until the founding of the Justice League (Bruce Tim cartoon). The Justice League also has a long history of having young/rookie members even amongst its founders (Flash/Cartoon).

While I speculated about exact age, Dan Didio, Geoff Johns, and Jim Lee have all said that the JLA members are in their twenties.

http://insidepulse.com/2011/06/01/geoff-johns-jim-lees-justice-league-has-younger-icons-not-so-young-teen-titan/

Now that five years has past since Cyborg was a Senior in High School, He MUST be in his twenties also. I don't know you, but I'm sure that you are capable of simple arithmetic.

They are all in their twenties, so I don't think that there is a difference in maturity. Furthermore, maturity doesn't have a lot to do with age. I know 50 year old boys and 17 year old men, mkay? Cyborg has not been written to be immature in the DCnU. He's not making lewd jokes, being irresponsible, hitting on Wonder Woman like the older Hal Jordan is. The only flaw he seems to have is his strained relationship with his unsupportive father, who only cares about him now that he is a superhuman.

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#121 Posted by Superdork (1035 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

@Raiiyn said:

A few things. One, Cyborg is the only member of the team who no one has ever heard about in the DCnU. Batman and Green Lantern go to find Superman. Wonderwoman has been around. Cyborg is completely new, his origin is in the JL book and he was introduced poorly. IMO, he is the only founding member who wasn't actually a superhero yet.

Second, you are making assumptions on age. We cannot say how old the other members are, other then the fact that most of them have 'grown up' jobs and we know for a fact that Cyborg is in high school. To me, there is still a huge maturity gap there and I do not feel that he fits as a believable founder of the JL.

Thirdly, I am not hating on him being on the JL. I like Cyborg as a JL member. I do NOT like him as founder. I find it ridiculous.

What are you talking about? No one in the DCnU has heard about Cyborg? In the Voodoo series (issue 5), Cyborg was called one of the DC universes 5 biggest threats by the government along with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern. With his access to all information, ability to teleport anywhere, and strong physical stats--it's easy to see why.

No Caption Provided

If you're talking about during the origin arc, he wasn't a superhero yet. So what? In some interpretations Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter don't become real Superheroes until the founding of the Justice League (Bruce Tim cartoon). The Justice League also has a long history of having young/rookie members even amongst its founders (Flash/Cartoon).

While I speculated about exact age, Dan Didio, Geoff Johns, and Jim Lee have all said that the JLA members are in their twenties.

http://insidepulse.com/2011/06/01/geoff-johns-jim-lees-justice-league-has-younger-icons-not-so-young-teen-titan/

Now that five years has past since Cyborg was a Senior in High School, He MUST be in his twenties also. I don't know you, but I'm sure that you are capable of simple arithmetic.

They are all in their twenties, so I don't think that there is a difference in maturity. Furthermore, maturity doesn't have a lot to do with age. I know 50 year old boys and 17 year old men, mkay? Cyborg has not been written to be immature in the DCnU. He's not making lewd jokes, being irresponsible, hitting on Wonder Woman like the older Hal Jordan is. The only flaw he seems to have is his strained relationship with his unsupportive father, who only cares about him now that he is a superhuman.

Let me add to that:

Superman was the first superhero to debut in the DCnU Universe. That was 5 years ago. The Justice League was founded 5 years ago.
That means that EVERY Justice League member was operating for less than a year when the Justice League was founded.

If anyone in the JL is immature during the origin, it's Hal-douche-Jordan, Barry-naive-Allen, Diana-loves-to-fight-Prince, and Clark-punch-everything-Kent. Batman, Aquaman, and Cyborg are the only mature members during the origin story.

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#122 Posted by Raiiyn (3682 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

@Raiiyn said:

A few things. One, Cyborg is the only member of the team who no one has ever heard about in the DCnU. Batman and Green Lantern go to find Superman. Wonderwoman has been around. Cyborg is completely new, his origin is in the JL book and he was introduced poorly. IMO, he is the only founding member who wasn't actually a superhero yet.

Second, you are making assumptions on age. We cannot say how old the other members are, other then the fact that most of them have 'grown up' jobs and we know for a fact that Cyborg is in high school. To me, there is still a huge maturity gap there and I do not feel that he fits as a believable founder of the JL.

Thirdly, I am not hating on him being on the JL. I like Cyborg as a JL member. I do NOT like him as founder. I find it ridiculous.

What are you talking about? No one in the DCnU has heard about Cyborg? In the Voodoo series (issue 5), Cyborg was called one of the DC universes 5 biggest threats by the government along with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern. With his access to all information, ability to teleport anywhere, and strong physical stats--it's easy to see why.

No Caption Provided

If you're talking about during the origin arc, he wasn't a superhero yet. So what? In some interpretations Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter don't become real Superheroes until the founding of the Justice League (Bruce Tim cartoon). The Justice League also has a long history of having young/rookie members even amongst its founders (Flash/Cartoon).

While I speculated about exact age, Dan Didio, Geoff Johns, and Jim Lee have all said that the JLA members are in their twenties.

http://insidepulse.com/2011/06/01/geoff-johns-jim-lees-justice-league-has-younger-icons-not-so-young-teen-titan/

Now that five years has past since Cyborg was a Senior in High School, He MUST be in his twenties also. I don't know you, but I'm sure that you are capable of simple arithmetic.

They are all in their twenties, so I don't think that there is a difference in maturity. Furthermore, maturity doesn't have a lot to do with age. I know 50 year old boys and 17 year old men, mkay? Cyborg has not been written to be immature in the DCnU. He's not making lewd jokes, being irresponsible, hitting on Wonder Woman like the older Hal Jordan is. The only flaw he seems to have is his strained relationship with his unsupportive father, who only cares about him now that he is a superhuman.

Ok, I am going to give you some leeway since you are extremely passionate about this....

BUT. Cyborg's origin is in JL. THEREFORE, he did NOT exist in the DCnU PRIOR to the JL. All the other members had been around and had begun to already make names for themselves and defeat villains. Cyborg has no purpose outside of the JL.

I am discussing the origin of the league, NOT his appearances AFTER his creation.

Your article has no quotes from any of the people you have mentioned btw so I don't see how the article really "proves" your point? Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern and WW are are all at least in their early twenties during their origins as they are known by the populace in the DCnU and most have "grown up" jobs. They have even had altercations with other villains by this point. Cyborg is the only one who has not.

Just because five years have passed does not mean that his initial introduction as a teen should be forgotten. He was introduced as a founding member in his teens as well as a completely new character as per the new DCnU. Plain and simple. To me, I find that ridiculous.

Maturity, yes... it can be circumstantial but at the same time... for something such as the JL... I personally feel that a 16/17 year old is too young to be a founder. And maturity does not only mean that they do not make lewd comments or inappropriate gestures... It also affects their decisions. Now, I am not saying he makes poor decisions or anything like that. Simply that a 16/17 year old would not make the same decision as a 25 year old in most cases and in GENERAL.

This means, I prefer to have my JL with older members. If you feel differently that is your prerogative. We are clearly of two different opinions. You won't change my mind and I grow weary of explaining why I feel the way I feel. I respect that you enjoy Cyborg as a founder. Good for you! I do not. Good for me!

=) It's good that you are so passionate about this but I still will not be swayed to change my opinion. =)

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#123 Posted by DarthShap (880 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion, it is as simple as that:

If you have read a lot of JL & Titans comic books in the past, chances are, you are not going to like this change.

I like Cyborg. I have read the Wolfman run, the Technis Imperative, Teen Titans (Vol 3), Titans (vol. 2) etc... In all my favourites moments with the character (mostly his relationship with his father, Sarah Simms and Beast Boy, and his slow acceptance of what he had become) he was a Titan. He was created to be a Teen Titan (teenagers who have problems with their parents/parent figure) and it still shows.

I also like the Martian Manhunter. I read the Bronze Age JLA, the DeMatteis/Giffen's JL & JLI and the Morrison/Waid/Kelly JLA. I have also read Ellis' Stormwatch and The Authority (vol. 1). In universe, the Martian Manhunter is the heart and soul of the JLA. From an editorial point of view, it was a nice tradition and it is the only occasion for him to actually be on a title (I know that he is in Stormwatch right now but the merger makes even less sense in my opinion and the writers will not be able to do anything interesting and new with the Stormwatch/Authority team now that they are in the same universe as the JLA).

After years of glorifying the team's past and its "big seven", in Johns' own books especially (Green Lantern Rebirth, Flash Rebirth and Brightest Day) and tons of others such as Justice by Alex Ross, The New Frontier by Darwyn Cooke and recently Legacies by Len Wein, you really cannot blame the fans for expecting the team line-up to be composed of those seven characters when for the first time since 1986, they are all available.

Making Cyborg a founder is just a bad move, especially if you are going to keep the other six not include the Martian Manhunter.

"Blaming the character" makes no sense. And he is definitely not "responsible" for the disappearance of my favourite run of all time, The New Teen Titans. Geoff Johns did it, no doubt. He wanted that idiotic five years gap and for Cyborg to be a founding member and that is what he did. Both are just bad decisions in my opinion.

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#124 Posted by Superdork (1035 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided
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#125 Posted by doomsilver (652 posts) - - Show Bio

I just don't like Cyborg. I didn't like him in Teen Titans and I didn't like him in the Justice League pre-reboot. It's not because he is black, I have half black nephews. Post-Flashpoint his powers are cooler, but I still don't like him.

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#126 Posted by justice teen (893 posts) - - Show Bio

i feel that since cyborg on the JLA then so should donna, dick, wally, tempest, and roy, as the next generation JLA it just seems right

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#127 Posted by Onemoreposter (4365 posts) - - Show Bio

@202122 said:

Yes Cyborg will always be at his best amongst the ranks of the Teen Titans but i think he makes a good member of the JLA. Maybe if so many people stopped bitching they could enjoy him. He isn't my favourite member on this particular version of the JLA but i don't think he's at his full potential yet.

Anyway this is just me standing up for Victor Stone!

No Caption Provided

God, the bulky full robot look was as bad then as it is now.

The hates not on Cyborg or on him being in the JLA. Who HASN'T been in the JLA? The hate is on the writers who wrote him as a JLA founding member... which also happens to be his origin story. You have fan's then at this point who are ticked all the New Teen Titans years are negated and JLA fans who are ticked that John isn't a founding member, especially when all the other members got to stay. There could have easily been eight founders.

The truth is that things are changing and many of us fans don't like that. It's across the board though. Young Justice is gone, Captain Marvel history is being completely rewrote, the JSA as we knew it are gone, and the Superman mythos is getting a pretty stern rewrite, just to name a few big examples. The only one who seems fairly safe from the Flashpoint is Batman, lol, but even he's getting some tweaks.

Don't single Cyborg out as getting hated on. EVERYTHING is getting hated on. Cyborg is just front in center of everything changing in the DCU. He's the the Silver Surfer to Deoff Didiohns' Galactus. He his the herald of the new status quo.

I was upset when Cyborg replaced MM. I was also a bit miffed that Starro wasn't the antagonist. I wan't pre-flashpoint DCU back. Fans like me aren't just hating, we're mourning. A tad dramatic I know, but true.

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#128 Posted by Onemoreposter (4365 posts) - - Show Bio

@doomsilver said:

I just don't like Cyborg. I didn't like him in Teen Titans and I didn't like him in the Justice League pre-reboot. It's not because he is black, I have half black nephews. Post-Flashpoint his powers are cooler, but I still don't like him.

Your have a relative of a different race?!?! That means you CAN"T be racist!

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#129 Posted by BigBDawg (291 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest, it's just how Vic's been handled so far in the New 52. He's always been pretty cool in the past, but he just hasn't had enough time to develope his character as well as he got to grow in the pages of the original DC Universe. I really hope Geoff Johns can get his act together and give Vic the kind of deep developement he had back int he original DCU in his time with the New Teen Titans as well as his trying to be more human since that always as an an important part of Vic's character to me; showing he still is human evcen if he's a cyborg.

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#130 Posted by Alchemist_ (117 posts) - - Show Bio
@Onemoreposter said:

@doomsilver said:

I just don't like Cyborg. I didn't like him in Teen Titans and I didn't like him in the Justice League pre-reboot. It's not because he is black, I have half black nephews. Post-Flashpoint his powers are cooler, but I still don't like him.

Your have a relative of a different race?!?! That means you CAN"T be racist!

No, that's just what people say when they say racist stuff and want to get away with it..HAHA!
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#131 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (18062 posts) - - Show Bio

I was really happy about Cyborg being made into a big hero,an JLFounder. But I do kiss Martian Manhunter a lot.

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#132 Posted by xybernauts (888 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, at first I was really upset that they picked Cyborg to be part of the Justice League. I wondered why they didn't pick someone like Black Lightning. While Lightning wasn't in the super friends he was represented by the presence of Black Vulcan who technically is the Hanna Barabera verision of Black Vulcan. Now that I realize that Cyborg was on the Superfriends show I think he is the perfect choice. Someone said earlier that Cyborg could be on both the Teen Titans and Justice League. I agree. In fact I think he would be perfect if he acted as a liaison between the Teen Titans and the Justice League. While I understand why some people think he's a token black guy, I resent the negative implication that being ethnically inclusive is somehow a bad thing. The default setting shouldn't be all caucasian as some seem to suggest. No one calls Wonder Woman the token female. To me modern superhero teams don't have enough diversity. They need to go back to the levels of diversity that we saw in superhero culture during the late 1970's and early 1980's. Comics like the Uncanny X-Men #1 and Superfriends cartoons made an effort to be ever more inclusive. As a minority, I loved that. Why dont they have that level of diversity in comics and on screen today. They had not only had negroes, but there were Hispanics, Asian, native American Indians, etc. That's the way it should be all the time. Personally, when I watch The Big Bang Theory I don't just see an Indian, I see the guy who represents minorities on the show. To me the so called token black guy doesn't just represent black people, but he represents minorities in general so his inclusion isn't unimportant and it is necessary. Besides, Isn't that what America is all about.... Representation. White people in general don't feel the sting of not being included because they are represented up the wazoo, but minorities do feel it, keenly. That's why Cyborg's important.

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#133 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (18062 posts) - - Show Bio

I meant miss Martian Manhunter.........I don't kiss him.......well there was that one time at the Christmas party....but what happens at the watchtower STAYS at the watchtower.

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#134 Posted by TheCannon (20263 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Cyborg being a founding Leaguer is a horrible idea, and replacing Manhunter for Cyborg makes him even worse,

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#135 Posted by timelord786 (192 posts) - - Show Bio

i personally liker the power set he brings to the JL

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#136 Posted by Matchstick (568 posts) - - Show Bio

I like that they put Cyborg on the JLA, gives the character a chance to grow.

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#137 Posted by TheCrowbar (4397 posts) - - Show Bio

My only pet peeve is that he's a monstrous black guy trope. I would've preferred John Stewart if they wanted to diversify the team...actually could we get John Stewart anyway? Like as a replacement for Hal?

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#138 Edited by Mega_spidey01 (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

justice league has better diversity than the avengers so far. falcon is a lame token character for the movie and in comics.also hopefully cyborg be in the justice league movie comes out.

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#139 Edited by Wboy (457 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

I was really happy about Cyborg being made into a big hero,an JLFounder. But I do kiss Martian Manhunter a lot.

ZOMG LOLOLOLOL

Anywaaay yeah I never really liked cyborg, even growing up with Teen Titans cartoon cyborg was just..cyborg..

Even reading teen titans cyborg never really grew on me idunno and no not cuz he's black -_-

I do miss MM a lot more though.

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#140 Posted by confirukia (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah men is cause he black,cyborg eint do nothing wrong

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#141 Edited by xybernauts (888 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wboy said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

I was really happy about Cyborg being made into a big hero,an JLFounder. But I do kiss Martian Manhunter a lot.

ZOMG LOLOLOLOL

Anywaaay yeah I never really liked cyborg, even growing up with Teen Titans cartoon cyborg was just..cyborg..

Even reading teen titans cyborg never really grew on me idunno and no not cuz he's black -_-

I do miss MM a lot more though.

But did it ever occur to you that maybe the artists and writers who worked on the cartoon purposely avoided properly developing his character because he's black. Every other character on the Teen Titan's cartoon had some type of episode or arc that explored some aspect of the characters back story.

  • Raven - the story about her demon father
  • Beast Boy - story about his previous affiliation with another superhero group
  • Starfire - her rivalry with her sister and visiting her home planet.
  • Robin - His origins have been explored ad nauseam in the various Batman cartoons out there, like Batman the Animated Series

They never touched the subject of where Cyborg comes from or his familial relationships outside the group. The episodes that did focus on Cyborg were about his inability to naturally test the limits of his physical strength due to the nature of his cybernetic technology. The thing is the story didn't really make any sense because his technology allowed him to lift weight well beyond anything his physical body could ever even hope to lift. While you get an idea of why he might feel the way he does, they never illustrate this conflict in a way that makes sense. This makes his conflict appears superficial at best. As a result the superficial conflict fails to develop the character, thus the character is perceived as being superficial. Maybe if he followed some more fundamental themes regarding the merging of man and machine like...

  • he lost something significant to the human experience like his mobility, his emotions, or his ability to sense things (which would make no sense considering how much he liked simple pleasures like food)
  • or if he wasn't in complete control of himself because the cybernetic tech had a life of his own
  • or if he questioned his own humanity
  • or even if his technology conflicted with some moral view he has regarding the limits of what technology should be allowed to do

...these might have made sense in regards to exploring some conflict that Cyborg has regarding the use of technology.

Simply, the stories Cyborg got were purposely superficial. The episode that confirmed my suspicion was in the episode "Titan's East - Part 2". Prior, I considered the possibility that the writers simply didn't know how to develop the character adequately in a way that was interesting, but this episode proved my suspicion.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In this episode Brother Blood (Cyborg's archenemy on the show) reverse engineers Cyborg's cybernetic technology and uses it to turn himself into a cyborg. What pissed me off about the episode "Titan's East - Part 2" was that Brother Blood actually used Cyborg's cybernetic technology better than Cyborg. Brother Blood kicked ass. So much so that he came across as being way more awesome then Cyborg. What the episode showed was that it wasn't that the makers of the show didn't know how to develop and portray a cyborg in a way that was interesting.It was that they purposely scaled back Cyborg's portrayal, and in the process ruined Cyborg's character. Aqualad from Young Justice is a better example of how a decent minority character is portrayed.

Like you I always felt that the Cyborg on the show was a OK character, but not really great. I was only partial to him because of his ethnicity, but he didn't make a big impression on me, either. But the Cyborg in the New 52 Justice League comic is way better then the Cyborg from the Teen Titan's cartoon, so you shouldn't assume that the Cyborg from the DCnU is like the one in the cartoon. The DCnU Cyborg is more like the Cyborg from the Justice League Doom animated movie. The DCnU Cyborg is also better then some of the past versions of DCU comic's Cyborg.

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#142 Posted by SUNMAN (8588 posts) - - Show Bio

@xybernauts:

DC's touched on Cyborg's origin in telivision before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39A4Br4kW90

as for his origin, prior to the new 52 it was really just a lab accident. Unless your going to introduce his father and focus on that relationship, the cartoons pretty much focused on the prevailing themes surrounding Cyborg that the comics had.

As for Cyborg's portrayal in Teen Titans Go! I strongly disagree he was represented as strongly as the others were. As the cartoon it was the show does a good job portraying Cyborg's struggle with his humanity and place in society. It gives the audience enough to go off of it doesn't need to be blatantly spelled out for us.

Titans east were fine episodes. Brother Blood had become obsessed with Cyborg he co-opted Cyborg's blueprints combining Vic tech with his own powers. He plans for the encounter. Still Cyborg handles himself relatively well and is able to exploit his optic weakness.

Blood was kicking Cyborgs butt long before he turned himself into a Cyborg and he is a genius that meticulously read Cyborg's blueprints so I don't see the problem. In the last episode of Titans East we see he has become a Cyborg and still uses his powers, but Cyborg persevers in the end.

If you didn't like Teen Titans Go! that would be one thing, but it was a rather balanced portrayal for each character, even for a show that didn't take itself to seriously.

As for Aqualad in Young Justice, your way overrating his portrayal. It started off well in the first season, but he quickly became the original character with the least amount of focus and background. He's the most isolated and criticized member on the team. The one character that really can't catch a break. I strongly disagree that Aqualad is a better character than Cyborg. The whole Young Justice cartoon is way overrated. Weisman wanted it to be deep and multilayered like Gargoyles and it just isn't. The shows gotten pretty dull and predictable.

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#143 Edited by xybernauts (888 posts) - - Show Bio

@SUNMAN: Yes, the Galactic Guardians did look like a great cartoon, but it so old and Cyborg's stint was so brief that I doubt many people even remembered him and his origin until recently. But that's besides the point, I was talking specifically about the Teen Titan's cartoon. As you pointed out the Teen Titan's should have introduced his father, maybe created an episode revolving around Cyborg's father Silas Stone, and/or portrayed a flashback of Cyborg's origin. Yes he had a role in the Teen Titan's cartoon, but typically his portrayal was lighthearted and goofy. This was true for all the Titans, but most of the other Titan's portrayals were balanced out by these back stories as well as other conflicts. Cyborg had conflicts too, but they weren't portrayed well. One example was when he tried to upgrade himself with a more powerful chip, but the chip started taking his humanity away. While that was a semi-interesting story the conflict was easily resolved by simply removing the chip. So while it could have gone somewhere in terms of developing his characters beyond the goofiness, it went no were because of the overly simple resolution. Yes Cyborg beat Blood in the end, but that's not the point. The point was how elegently Blood used Cyborg's powers. It looked like Blood was schooling Cyborg on how to use his own powers.

It's funny because while I was looking for a clip of the scene showing the fight between Cyborg and Brother Blood I found this video that perfectly illustrates what I'm talking about.

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

And this video also does the same. It sums up my point. This is what makes Cyborg such a disliked character. The Teen Titan's show basically made Cyborg look second rate, as the first video points out. Yes you point out Blood was kicking Cyborg's ass even before he got the cybernetic upgrade, and that's what people think of when they think of Cyborg. Unless you read the comics (and I don't), he's a poor character. With other arch-enemies and heroes, the hero is dominate and the villain merely exploits the heroes compassion. With the rivalry between Cyborg and Blood, Blood clearly dominates Cyborg. Blood has these sweet moves that show his skill and Cyborg is just a guy with cybernetic upgrades. For any decent hero the powers can't make the hero, the hero must make the powers, meaning the hero is what makes the powers special, not the other way around.

As for Young Justice, it's one of the better if not the best DC Animated shows that has ever come out. Amongst other things it does a great job of not coming across as racist. Forget the beautiful animation and the fantastic story arc. One good example is how the leader of each show is chosen. In Titan's there was a decision to be made in regards to who would lead the team. Either Cyborg or Robin. The truth is on that show I have never have seen anything that suggests that Cyborg has any real leadership skills so basically he comes across as a wanna be leader, especially when faced with Robin's intellect and expertise. Basically, there was no balance between the two characters. It was not a scenario where each had something to contribute and Robin simply won out. Instead Robin held all the cards and Cyborg fell flat on his face. In contrast, in the decisions in regards to who would lead the team in Young Justice, there was a distinct balance that complimented both heroes. Robin had great potential to be a leader, but his advanced style and expectations made it hard for the other teammates to keep up with him. Aqualad may not have been on the level of Robin, but he understood what each team member was capable of and understood how to use those abilities and how to communicate his expectations. Each character had flaws and each had something to contribute. This is a portrayal that compliments both heroes. And this is just one example. All throughout the show Aqualad is shown as being intelligent, so much so he has infiltrated The Light as a long term double agent and they don't even realize it. This shows that even without his powers he has some real skills meaning he makes his powers, his powers don't make him. And as a result he seems to be more well liked overall by fans, correct me if I'm wrong.

But not to lose my original point. I really like the DCnU Cyborg. I believe the stigma against the DCnU Cyborg comes from Teen Titans Go Cyborg, which was a bad version of Cyborg. So I was pointing this out cause I don't want people who haven't read the Justice League comic to think that the DCnU Cyborg is anything like the Teen Titan's Go Cyborg. And for the record I did like Teen Titans Go, I just didn't like what it did to Cyborg's character.

And I do agree, Gargoyles was a great cartoon. Not better then Young Justice, but about the same.

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#144 Posted by SUNMAN (8588 posts) - - Show Bio

@xybernauts said:

@SUNMAN: Yes, the Galactic Guardians did look like a great cartoon, but it so old and Cyborg's stint was so brief that I doubt many people even remembered him and his origin until recently. But that's besides the point, I was talking specifically about the Teen Titan's cartoon. As you pointed out the Teen Titan's should have introduced his father, maybe created an episode revolving around Cyborg's father Silas Stone, and/or portrayed a flashback of Cyborg's origin. Yes he had a role in the Teen Titan's cartoon, but typically his portrayal was lighthearted and goofy. This was true for all the Titans, but most of the other Titan's portrayals were balanced out by these back stories as well as other conflicts. Cyborg had conflicts too, but they weren't portrayed well. One example was when he tried to upgrade himself with a more powerful chip, but the chip started taking his humanity away. While that was a semi-interesting story the conflict was easily resolved by simply removing the chip. So while it could have gone somewhere in terms of developing his characters beyond the goofiness, it went no were because of the overly simple resolution. Yes Cyborg beat Blood in the end, but that's not the point. The point was how elegently Blood used Cyborg's powers. It looked like Blood was schooling Cyborg on how to use his own powers.

It's funny because while I was looking for a clip of the scene showing the fight between Cyborg and Brother Blood I found this video that perfectly illustrates what I'm talking about.

Loading Video...
Loading Video...

And this video also does the same. It sums up my point. This is what makes Cyborg such a disliked character. The Teen Titan's show basically made Cyborg look second rate, as the first video points out. Yes you point out Blood was kicking Cyborg's ass even before he got the cybernetic upgrade, and that's what people think of when they think of Cyborg. Unless you read the comics (and I don't), he's a poor character. With other arch-enemies and heroes, the hero is dominate and the villain merely exploits the heroes compassion. With the rivalry between Cyborg and Blood, Blood clearly dominates Cyborg. Blood has these sweet moves that show his skill and Cyborg is just a guy with cybernetic upgrades. For any decent hero the powers can't make the hero, the hero must make the powers, meaning the hero is what makes the powers special, not the other way around.

As for Young Justice, it's one of the better if not the best DC Animated shows that has ever come out. Amongst other things it does a great job of not coming across as racist. Forget the beautiful animation and the fantastic story arc. One good example is how the leader of each show is chosen. In Titan's there was a decision to be made in regards to who would lead the team. Either Cyborg or Robin. The truth is on that show I have never have seen anything that suggests that Cyborg has any real leadership skills so basically he comes across as a wanna be leader, especially when faced with Robin's intellect and expertise. Basically, there was no balance between the two characters. It was not a scenario where each had something to contribute and Robin simply won out. Instead Robin held all the cards and Cyborg fell flat on his face. In contrast, in the decisions in regards to who would lead the team in Young Justice, there was a distinct balance that complimented both heroes. Robin had great potential to be a leader, but his advanced style and expectations made it hard for the other teammates to keep up with him. Aqualad may not have been on the level of Robin, but he understood what each team member was capable of and understood how to use those abilities and how to communicate his expectations. Each character had flaws and each had something to contribute. This is a portrayal that compliments both heroes. And this is just one example. All throughout the show Aqualad is shown as being intelligent, so much so he has infiltrated The Light as a long term double agent and they don't even realize it. This shows that even without his powers he has some real skills meaning he makes his powers, his powers don't make him. And as a result he seems to be more well liked overall by fans, correct me if I'm wrong.

But I do agree, Gargoyles was a great cartoon. Not better then Young Justice, but about the same.

I respectfully disagree. Teen Titans Go could have introduced Cybrog's father if there was a plot behind it, but prior to the new 52 not much was ever done with Cyborg's father so the writers would just be coming up with stuff from scratch. Cyborg's origin wouldn't really constitue a good episode, instead the show just focused on the most prevalent themes about Cyborg's character. Like robin he didn't have or need a family or backstory issue. Raven and StarFire's origins and families are tied to the Titans history. Beast Boy they just used to bring in Doom Patrol and some more villains.

The show was light hearted and goofy. It's a show that didn't take itself too seriously. It was a little hooky jumping between comedy and action with a little drama. It was a multilayered show but a simplistic one at the same time. I really don't see how your saying Cyborg's portrayal wasn't balanced. He was written with funny moments and given cool fighting moments just like the rest. His serious moments were just as serious as the other characters. I really feel your being over analytical. Your acting like the other Titans got moments throughout the show that had substantially more depth. They didn't. Most episodes had clear messages and points, and were fairly lighthearted even the darker episodes. As for your backstory complaint, none of the characters got thorough backstories and they didn't need it. The show presented the characters in a way that they are easily identifiable. Robin didn't have a backstory. Beast Boy had 2 episodes where we meet his old team, wasn't really in origin or go that in depth just that he was treated like a kid. StarFire we know she is an alien, we meet her sister, travel to her home planet, and in a direct to dvd episode we see she was captured by slavers. Cyborg like robin no backstory, but his character doesn't particularly need it. Raven we know she has magic powers, and her father is some supreme demonic overlord that wants to enslave earth. Blood was beating Cyborg with his own abilities more than he was with Cyborg's tech. And this happened with most of the one on one fights. Not sure why you are harping on this with Cyborg. Slade always looked better than Robin one on one. Beat Boy got owned by that other werewolf beast villain till he got his cliche power up moment. All was lost against Trigon. Than Raven suddenly goes Super Saiyain and blasts him.

The point is its a 20 odd minute show, not an hour long one. Each Titan was given relatively similar moments. They all had different themes, archetypes and characterizations, but they were all given equal moments of comedy/goofiness, action and seriousness/angst. The show didn't make Cyborg look second rate. He was fighting a villain the fact he was outmatched just adds to the drama. Like Superman getting beat down by Doomsday or Bane breaking Batman's back.

I really don't get your gripes about Teen Titans Go Cyborg at all. Yeah he's a cyborg, but he has other endearing character traits. How entertaining would it have been if Cyborg just beat blood down. I mean sometimes villains get the upper hand it adds to the drama. Are the ninja turtles suddenly lame because the Shredder owns them?

As for Young Justice, I like what they're trying to do, but the execution has been lacking. It's trying to juggle too many things and it doesn't work and there is a substantial lack of character development. Cartoons tend to be more diverse in general because they are catering to a wider audience than the comics. In regards to racism, have you encountered a superhero cartoon in the last 15 years you felt was racist?

In regards to leadership, Robins always been the leader. Cyborg was just leading Titans East after Robin he is the most qualified he is fairly competent and a tech wiz. Still he was never challenging robin for leadership, but once again I think your taking this aspect too seriously given the type of show this was.

Back to Young Justice, its got good animation, but wants to cram way too much in. Aqualad is under developed and often neglected outside of 4 episodes. The way the go about deciding the leadership is contrived.

The shows okay at best, but people really overate it. Gargoyles flowed organically. Young Justice is just trying to cram too much in and takes itself too seriously. Avengers: EMH, was a far superior show even with its budget animation. Both Avengers and Young Justice are team shows and both engage in arc style narratives (to varying degrees); the team aspect is an important issue since it's a tricky thing to balance so many characters, however in development and in action sequences, Avengers wisely doesn't always use the whole team all of the time (even when they are all on good terms with one another), but even when it does, each character shines, and when it comes to full-on team brawls, the action choreography is more skillfully storyboarded and cut together on Avengers than on Young Justice .

YJ deals with covert stealth missions and international conflicts, conspiracies etc., which sounds great when you hear about it, but the show not as tactful with the execution. Sometimes you get the sense the show forgets its a cartoon and that is a problem. People think this cartoon is more meta than other cartoon shows, but it really isn't it just tries to cram more things in and it suffers because of it. If the show was an hour long each episode than maybe the show could truly accomplish what its trying to do. Since the second episode, season 2 has been very predictable. But overall its a superhero show with good animation and some action so it will be popular especially in this climate. I'd take Bruce Timm's Justice League's Batman, Superman or Justice league over this any day. It's straight forward and to the point and says more with less.

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#145 Edited by xybernauts (888 posts) - - Show Bio

@SUNMAN: Obviously you haven't been listening. I actually pointed out how much I like Young Justice and don't think it comes across as racist so to answer your question, yes I've encountered a superhero cartoon in the last 15 years that I felt was not racist? There are many animations where I don't feel the specter of racism, but Teen Titans Go wasn't one of them. I mean it isn't blatant or overt, but It is there.

You use examples like TMNT, but in TMNT's all four turtles are no match for Shredder. Their skills set is pretty much equal. Same holds true for Darkseid. Everyone is outmatched by Darkseid, not just Superman and technically Superman outclasses all other heroes in terms of his ability to fight Darseid so that's a terrible example. Bane broke Batman once and technically Bane's power isn't a skill, he's basically hopped up on drugs. Batman outclasses him in terms of skill, will, and intellect. And when Bane broke the Bat, it was after Batman spent several days without rest cause he was tracking all the inmates that escaped from Arkham, so again that's a terrible example. Another reason these are bad examples is because Batman and Superman are at the top of their class. There are people who literally think Batman can beat anyone. Superman is considered to be overpowered by some and we know he is one of the strongest characters amongst DC heroes. When these two characters go down it's the exception not the norm. Batman and Superman have a PR surplus so losing one fight doesn't hurt their likability that much in the long run. Cyborg on the other hand has a PR deficit, so every failure further hurts his likability It's like the difference between taking $10 from a millionaire vs. taking $10 from someone starving on the street. Superman and Batman are the Robin's of their books, meaning they are the leaders because they are such great characters. It makes no sense to compare them to Cyborg who clearly isn't the lead.

Also, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have introduced Cyborg's father. I'm sure not everything portrayed in TTG was 100% canon. So yes they could have created a story about the strained relationship between Silas Stone and Victor Stone. You compare Cyborg lack of development to Robin's but as I pointed out in earlier posts Robin has been explored ad nasuem in previous DC Animated shows. He has had whole episodes dedicated to exploring his characters origin, and that doesn't even take into account the Batman and Robin live action movie, so that's not a fair comparison at all.

You talk about Cyborg's cool fighting moments. Can you really name any truly memorable fighting moments, cause I can't think of any. What I'm saying is the other Titan's were developed with interesting identifiable back stories that made the characters more likable and they purposely scaled back Cyborg's portrayal to diminished his character. This is coming from someone who typically leans in favor of the resident ethnic minority. The Titans didn't need through back stories, they just needed something that illustrated he actually had a life before the Titan's. It appears Cyborg had no significant connections prior to the Titans. In any community friends and family are important and they reflect on a persons character. Cyborg's lack there of, hurt his character.

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Yes in the rivalry between Robin and Slade, like Cyborg Robin got his ass kicked, but unlike Cyborg, Robin also demonstrated some serious skill as well. He wasn't just a punching bag for his rival the way Cyborg was. In Slades fights with Robin you see him adapting and trying new strategies trying to defeat Slade. You don't see that with Cyborg. I mean what is Cyborg without his technology? Where are the moments that show us the Cyborg is more then just the sum of his tech and that what makes him great is his own ingenuity and skill, not his tech. You see this with Robin, Slade, and even Brother Blood. Even without their accessories they are forces to be reckoned with. Can we say the same with Cyborg? You say Cyborg is a tech wiz, but where do we actual see this applied outside of him upgrading his own hardware, which didn't go so well I might add. The only example I can think of is that car he made, and it isn't a supercar, it's just a plain car.

And yes, in the first episode Cyborg challenged Robin for leadership. Robin won out in the end. And the Teen Titans East was such a mess that even Beast Boy could have led them.

As for Young Justice, I honestly don't see what you talking about. I think the execution has been great. So much so that I'd like to see some elements from the series used in the Justice League comics. Avengers: EMH (AEMH) is ok, but it's certainly not better then Young Justice (YJ). I could barely stomach the first season of the AEMH. Things got better by the second season. It did do a good job of introducing a lot of characters, though. To me Young Justice has been consistently good, but I don't want to stray onto the topic of what makes it a great series cause to me it's already obvious and it's strays off my original point.

One point I want to address though. You said season 2 has been predicable. You mean you predicted that Aqualad would betray the League and then turn out to be a double agent? Or that Aqualad would blow up Mt. Justice, or that Or that they would find the real Roy Harper aka Speedy? Or that Impulse would travel back in time and become stranded in the past, YJ's present. You can't honestly tell me you think YJ is predictable.

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#146 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29886 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread makes me want to bag on Cyborg.

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#147 Posted by SUNMAN (8588 posts) - - Show Bio

@xybernauts: don't see how Teen Titans Go is racist at all. I was hoping you'd give some examples.

What failures has Cyborg had?

There was no need to introduce Silas Stone other than to say this is Cyborg's dad. It could have been done sure, was it necessary......no.

The Teen Titans didn't do back stories in this cartoon the only one who had a brief backstory moment was Beast Boy.

You said you were just talking about Teen Titans cartoon at first, so when I mention Guardians of the Galaxy it doesn't count for Cyborg. The audience didn't need to be spoon fed every little detail about Cyborg, as with the rest of the characters the audience can infer enough from what they've been given.

Cyborg's character and personality are clearly defined in this story, not sure what else you need. The show didn't delve into Robins past. And StarFire's family didn't strongly define the character.

You've got this crazy double standard for Cyborg your not holding the rest of the characters too. We've seen cyborg use his ingenuity and a wide range of gadgets to get the job done. I don't have to list concrete examples cause we see it most episodes. From his fight with Atlas to battles against the hive kids you name it. He's the sum of his abilities as much as Beast Boy and Raven are, or the rest really.

Cyborg's character and personality shine through in this show. He gets his shots in, holds his own and is a force that can be reckoned with. Yeah Robins a skilled fighter he has to be he doesn't have any powers. The other characters aren't they use their abilities to the best they can. Does that diminish them, in this sort of stylized children's cartoon of course it doesn't.

Your saying he isn't a tech whiz really? Building Titans Towers defenses, the T-ship, the T-Car, his own gadgets, stoping the soundwave generator. Basically all the good intentioned technological devices come from Cyborg. All the tech interfacing.

The first episode was just two friends squabbling,and used to show Robins importance to the team. Episode 3 we see the same thing with Cyborg's importance to the team.

Young Justice is overrated. There isn't anything revolutionary about the show and it doesn't effectively execute all that it tries to do. I said since episode 2 of season 2 its been predictable. Since the second episode yes the shows been fairly predictable. Overall Avengers EMH flowed much smoother and worked better to convey a stronger narrative.

Your holding Cyborg under this microscope, which doesn't make sense, since if you hold the others under this microscope you get the same thing. I don't know if you just wanted the entire show to be more flushed out or just want Cyborg to be Robin, which doesn't work they are fundamentally different characters. Robin was the fourth character DC created even before Wonder Woman, are you really making an argument he has more exposure than Cyborg of course he does. The show in no way scaled back Cyborg's role. It's not an overly complex show. Every character gets a balanced focus. It's disingenuous to say the other characters got more of a focus.

I've seen the show multiple times. If you want to hear the creators talk on it here you go

Cyborg's section comes in at 8:17

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all the characters have strong and easily identifiable roles. None of these heroes have any greater depth than the others. Your harping on these little things for Cyborg that essentially all the other characters go through in different ways. Like the other characters didn't have their short comings at times. Slade manipulates Robin, he becomes obsessive compulsive over it. Beast Boy is largely comic relief till the later seasons. Raven's the goth girl who we later find out has daddy issues. Cyborg;s the wide eyed foreign exchange student. Cyborgs the jock who wears his emotions on his vest.

they've all got their strengths and weaknesses and hangups. No one more than the other.

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#148 Posted by Arkhamc1tizen (2320 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: raven does exist

she appeared in phantom stranger two or one not sure

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#149 Posted by daviddv0601 (258 posts) - - Show Bio

Many people grew up with the Martian Manhunter which is why many people will never stop hating until Cyborg is no longer a founder a member. I adore Cyborg and enjoy him as a founding member, and I am glad he is a character in the movie. It makes sense for this generation that Cyborg would be a founding member of DC's number one superhero team. Don't get me wrong, I also loved Teen Titans and see that Cyborg feels more at home with them but Cyborg has always been my favourite character. In fact, if Martian Manhunter fanboys want to blame something of Cyborg's origin within the Justice League, they should blame Justice League: Doom. That's where Cyborg became a member of the Justice League. The New 52 took inspiration from that and made Cyborg a founding member.

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