STOP BAGGING ON CYBORG

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#51 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: I never said he was to blame, so that post is completely irrelevant.

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#52 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: Okay, you like him on the JLA but don't like that his Titans history is gone. I get it. That history is not necessaary to the coolness of the character. Superman has had hundreds of stories retconned in and out of existence. That's just the nature of the beast. It was bound to happen to Cyborg eventually. All the fundamentals to his character are there, so I think it's no biggie.

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#53 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

@ReVamp: Okay, you like him on the JLA but don't like that his Titans history is gone. I get it. That history is not necessaary to the coolness of the character. Superman has had hundreds of stories retconned in and out of existence. That's just the nature of the beast. It was bound to happen to Cyborg eventually. All the fundamentals to his character are there, so I think it's no biggie.

But I don't have to like it, that's the point I'm trying to get across.

Just because there are a bunch of people who don't like Cyclops replacing MM in the JLA, it doesn't mean they are hating.

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#54 Posted by Video_Martian (5650 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Cyborg, but I still believe that he's useless on the Justice League.

Also, Beast Boy is red?!?!? WTF?!?!???

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#55 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Captain13 said:

@ReVamp: Okay, you like him on the JLA but don't like that his Titans history is gone. I get it. That history is not necessaary to the coolness of the character. Superman has had hundreds of stories retconned in and out of existence. That's just the nature of the beast. It was bound to happen to Cyborg eventually. All the fundamentals to his character are there, so I think it's no biggie.

But I don't have to like it, that's the point I'm trying to get across.

Just because there are a bunch of people who don't like Cyclops replacing MM in the JLA, it doesn't mean they are hating.

Cyborg could have been an eigth member and people would still complain. There are a lot of reasons that people don't want him in the league.

MM, a character who did not sell well was taken off the JL for that reason, and the fact that tthey didn't want more than one alien on the team. Johns said so. If not by Cyborg, he would have still been replaced by someone. It's time to move on.

And lot's of people are (illogically) hating as seen in:

http://www.comicvine.com/justice-league-of-america/65-31815/who-is-the-pointless-member-of-the-main-jl-guys/92-670583/?page=4

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#56 Edited by BatteredArmor (6234 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: Your right Cyborg certainly adds allot to the teams operations but I still feel he's kind of Token because I feel half the reason DC put him on the team is so they could say that they have a black guy, so while I technically misused the word I still feel like I used the spirit of the word correctly. It's true that MM picked up more supporters because he got replaced but some people still genuinely are angry because they like the character, and it's pretty hard to say that his powers were redundant because psychic powers when used effectively can completely change the way a team operates

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#57 Edited by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr.obvious said:

I love Cyborg, but I still believe that he's useless on the Justice League.

Also, Beast Boy is red?!?!? WTF?!?!???

WHY IS HE USELESS?
HIS POWERS INCLUDE:

Cyborg's New 52 (DCnU) functions

  • Cybernetics: Cyborg possesses cybernetic enhancements that provide superhuman strength, endurance and durability. Cyborg can also interface with computers. Built into his body-armor are an infrared eye, computer generator, sound amplifier, and special programming adapters that allow him to interface with other body extensions.
  • Body Resistance: The nature of Cyborg's body provides him with natural body armor offering resistance versus physical damage and energy attacks.
  • Superhuman Strength: At optimal capacity, Vic can lift/press in excess of several tons. Cyborg's upper strength limits have fluctuated with upgrades to his systems over time.
  • Superhuman Speed: He possessed a degree of superspeed and could leap great distances.
  • Superhuman Endurance
  • Superhuman Durability: His bones are reinforced with molybdenum-steel.

  • Computer Interfacing WITH EVERY COMPUTER ON THE PLANET INCLUDING THE BAT-COMPUTER

  • Flight: Powered by boot jets
  • Integrated Weapons

  • ADVANCED Sensor Systems

  • Teleportation: Cyborg can open a Boom Tube extra-dimensional point-to-point travel portal to teleport him and his companions.

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#58 Posted by Dernman (26105 posts) - - Show Bio

I would not have liked any of the Titans being retconned as a founder of the JLA and would have complained just the same as anyone of them.

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#59 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

Cyborg could have been an eigth member and people would still complain. There are a lot of reasons that people don't want him in the league.

Remove "replacing MM" from my sentence.

Just because there are a bunch of people who don't like Cyclops in the JLA, it doesn't mean they are hating.

^There. That's still true.

MM, a character who did not sell well was taken off the JL for that reason, and the fact that tthey didn't want more than one alien on the team. Johns said so. If not by Cyborg, he would have still been replaced by someone. It's time to move on.
And lot's of people are (illogically) hating as seen in:
http://www.comicvine.com/justice-league-of-america/65-31815/who-is-the-pointless-member-of-the-main-jl-guys/92-670583/?page=4

None of that is hate. People think he's redundant as the only thing he's done is act as a teleporter. Sure, you could say that he could hack any computer on earth, but to what avail would that help on the field? And if they're out of the field then Batman himself could do it, ala Oracle.

Now, I'm not going to turn this into a debate as it belongs in that thread, but Cyborg can definitely be seen as pointless without it being illogical.

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#60 Posted by Dernman (26105 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@Captain13 said:

Cyborg could have been an eigth member and people would still complain. There are a lot of reasons that people don't want him in the league.

Remove "replacing MM" from my sentence.

Just because there are a bunch of people who don't like Cyclops in the JLA, it doesn't mean they are hating.

^There. That's still true.

MM, a character who did not sell well was taken off the JL for that reason, and the fact that tthey didn't want more than one alien on the team. Johns said so. If not by Cyborg, he would have still been replaced by someone. It's time to move on.
And lot's of people are (illogically) hating as seen in:
http://www.comicvine.com/justice-league-of-america/65-31815/who-is-the-pointless-member-of-the-main-jl-guys/92-670583/?page=4

None of that is hate. People think he's redundant as the only thing he's done is act as a teleporter. Sure, you could say that he could hack any computer on earth, but to what avail would that help on the field? And if they're out of the field then Batman himself could do it, ala Oracle.

Now, I'm not going to turn this into a debate as it belongs in that thread, but Cyborg can definitely be seen as pointless without it being illogical.

Cyborg not Cyclops. You Mutantaphobe :p
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#61 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

@Captain13: Your right Cyborg certainly adds allot to the teams operations but I still feel he's kind of Token because I feel half the reason DC put him on the team is so they could say that they have a black guy, so while I technically misused the word I still feel like I used the spirit of the word correctly. It's true that MM picked up more supporters because he got replaced but some people still genuinely are angry because they like the character, and it's pretty hard to say that his powers were redundant because psychic powers when used effectively can completely change the way a team operates

I'd still rather have DC addressing the race issue than being racist by exclusion.

I'm happy that the JLA doesn't have a big psychic, because now they can face more challenging threats.

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#62 Posted by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: The basic problem I have is the same one as ReVamp's. To me Cyborg belongs on the Titans. Making him a founding member of the League seems a bit disrespectful to the character's history. I wouldn't mind several of Wolfman's Titans advancing to Justice League membership after the 5 year time skip like they were in James Robinson's Justice League run but making Cyborg a founding League member given the fact it confuses his history with the Titans doesn't seem right to me. Plus if what you're saying is true about his age at the time of the first Justice League arc being 16-18 it seems weird for a high school student to be a part of an adult superhuman team.

And apparently Wolfman's Titans still occured to some extent according to Red Hood and the Outlaws which is confusing to me. Personally if I were putting an ethnic minority member onto the New 52 Justice League, I would have thought it would be more appropriate to choose one of DC's earlier black superheroes like Black Lightning. His powers add diversity plus agewise he would be more suited to being a Justice Leaguer.

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#63 Posted by Gambit1024 (10217 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Captain13: The basic problem I have is the same one as ReVamp's. To me Cyborg belongs on the Titans. Making him a founding member of the League seems a bit disrespectful to the character's history. I wouldn't mind several of Wolfman's Titans advancing to Justice League membership after the 5 year time skip like they were in James Robinson's Justice League run but making Cyborg a founding League member given the fact it confuses his history with the Titans doesn't seem right to me. Plus if what you're saying is true about his age at the time of the first Justice League arc being 16-18 it seems weird for a high school student to be a part of an adult superhuman team.

And apparently Wolfman's Titans still occured to some extent according to Red Hood and the Outlaws which is confusing to me. Personally if I were putting an ethnic minority member onto the New 52 Justice League, I would have thought it would be more appropriate to choose one of DC's earlier black superheroes like Black Lightning. His powers add diversity plus agewise he would be more suited to being a Justice Leaguer.

Couldn't've said it better myself

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#64 Posted by TDK_1997 (18774 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyborg is a good member but people will respect him more if he makes more memorable and long appearances in the JLA book.

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#65 Posted by fodigg (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

@fodigg: I agree. I think that this thread started from the obvious blind bias against Cyborg that was in the first few pages of this thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/justice-league-of-america/65-31815/who-is-the-pointless-member-of-the-main-jl-guys/92-670583/#66

Thanks for the link. That definitely strikes me as a bit of "he's new, so I don't like him". If anything Superman or Wonder Woman are "useless" for having redundant power sets (even more-so if you compare them to Manhunter), but who is going to say they should be dropped? So people pile on the new kid, even though he's their tech expert, on a level beyond Batman's gadgetry, at a time when they really need an expert on advanced alien technology.

None of the original seven (including either Manhunter or Cyborg) can really be called "useless" so the whole thread is basically about who you want to see. I don't see anyone making legit arguments against Cyborg, they just don't see him as a league founder yet. Which is fine. People will get over it.

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#66 Edited by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024: @Lvenger said:

@Captain13: The basic problem I have is the same one as ReVamp's. To me Cyborg belongs on the Titans. Making him a founding member of the League seems a bit disrespectful to the character's history. I wouldn't mind several of Wolfman's Titans advancing to Justice League membership after the 5 year time skip like they were in James Robinson's Justice League run but making Cyborg a founding League member given the fact it confuses his history with the Titans doesn't seem right to me.

Look, I'm 20 years old, and I'm turning 21 soon. I tried reading Wolfman's run, and I find the writing heavily outdated. I couldn't get into it. The only stuff that I found remotely interesting is the Trigon stuff--and I liked it only conceptually. I understand that this run means a lot to a lot of people, but it doesn't mean anything to me. I'm guessing that it doesn't mean much to most of the readers in my generation. Truth is that what is relevant to you, may not be relevant to future generations. That's why revamps happen. Things need to be made fresh again.

It happens all the time. Not very many people complain about the Parallax retcon, or the COIE retcons, or the Red Hood Retcon, or the Arthur getting his hand back post Flashpoint retcon, or the Wonder Woman retcon in the 1960s that let her fly, or the 1001 retcons to Superman's origin. No one says that those retcons are disrespectful to those heroes.

Cyborg is essentially a hero. He doesn't have to be a Titan. And that doesn't even matter since he was a Titan in the DCnU along with Dick, Kory, Roy, and possibly Gar.

And Cyborg being a JL member and Teen Tiatan does not confuse the history of the DC Universe. He was on both teams simultaneously like Wolverine and Spider-Man. What confuses the history is the fact that all the JLA members have been de-aged and Donna and Wally and Raven don't exist.

Had they existed, then the Perez stories would still be around, mkay?

@Lvenger said:

@Captain13: Plus if what you're saying is true about his age at the time of the first Justice League arc being 16-18 it seems weird for a high school student to be a part of an adult superhuman team.

And the Justice League was the only known superhuman team at the time other than the secret Storm Watch. Cyborg didn't get an invitation to join older heroes, he founded the group WITH them. And as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, Superman may not have gone to college at the beginning of Justice League so he's probably also 18 at the start of the story. Wonder Woman could have left paradise Island at 18. Hal may have been in the air force and turned into Green Lantern that same year--also 18. Bruce became Batman at age 20. Aquaman was about 18-20 as established in Aquaman issue 8. Flash's age isn't clarified, but he's got to be around that age too. They are all about the same age. The biggest age difference that I can see is if Superman DID go to college, then during the founding of the Justice League, he was 22 and Cyborg was 18. That's not a very big age difference.

Also, in several incarnations of the Justice League such as the Bruce Timm cartoon and New Frontier, Flash is a little bit younger and inexperienced. So who cares if Cyborg plays that role this time around? He's not written to be incompetent (so far).

@Lvenger said:

And apparently Wolfman's Titans still occured to some extent according to Red Hood and the Outlaws which is confusing to me. Personally if I were putting an ethnic minority member onto the New 52 Justice League, I would have thought it would be more appropriate to choose one of DC's earlier black superheroes like Black Lightning. His powers add diversity plus agewise he would be more suited to being a Justice Leaguer.

That's a continuity issue, not a Cyborg being on the JLA issue. He could have been on both teams at the same time. The only reason that Wolfman/Perez's run couldn't happen is the missing Wally and missing Donna. It's not a Cyborg-being-a-founder-related continuity issue.

Finally, if you are so tied to the Wolfman/Perez run that you can't accept Cyborg as a founder, then there's really nothing I can say. It's a new universe with a new continuity. It's comics--it happens. There are new universes and new interpretations popping up all the time. I just happen to love the idea of Cyborg being on the Team.

Awesome
Awesome
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#67 Posted by Mercy_ (94928 posts) - - Show Bio

@Raiiyn said:

@AweSam said:

@sethysquare said:

I think people are just racist. I've seen tons of racist remarks over the internet about Cyborg's inclusion. Like seriously, deal with it people.

Cyborg has been added to Super Friends since the 80s. He has quit Teen Titans and joined JL in comics for quite a while now already and when characters like Hawkgirl, Black Canary has been added as the founding members, nobody made noise. I wonder why.

Well, yeah. Have you seen the color of his skin? It's silver. I'll never accept it.

LOL

In regards to Cyborg being a founding member... I just find his inclusion ill-written. I mean he doesn't have a solo title so his origin is in the JL title and then the fact that he is also a teen... all the other members are much older. It just feels contrived.

I like Cyborg don't me wrong, just not as a founder.

Agree with this 100%

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#68 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@TDK_1997 said:

Cyborg is a good member but people will respect him more if he makes more memorable and long appearances in the JLA book.

QFT

@fodigg said:

@Captain13 said:

@fodigg: I agree. I think that this thread started from the obvious blind bias against Cyborg that was in the first few pages of this thread:

http://www.comicvine.com/justice-league-of-america/65-31815/who-is-the-pointless-member-of-the-main-jl-guys/92-670583/#66

Thanks for the link. That definitely strikes me as a bit of "he's new, so I don't like him". If anything Superman or Wonder Woman are "useless" for having redundant power sets (even more-so if you compare them to Manhunter), but who is going to say they should be dropped? So people pile on the new kid, even though he's their tech expert, on a level beyond Batman's gadgetry, at a time when they really need an expert on advanced alien technology.

None of the original seven (including either Manhunter or Cyborg) can really be called "useless" so the whole thread is basically about who you want to see. I don't see anyone making legit arguments against Cyborg, they just don't see him as a league founder yet. Which is fine. People will get over it.

*Shakes hand in agreement, then proceeds to follow on Comicvine

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#69 Posted by fodigg (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

I will agree that it's ridiculous he doesn't have a solo title. If he's a founding justice leaguer, he should get the founder treatment.

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#70 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

@ReVamp: But he hasn't been a titan for a long time. Just like how Dick have not been a titan for a long time. Its like saying Dick is a titan, so he should never have been batman. He should always stay a titan and never move to the justice league.

That's really not a good analogy.

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#71 Posted by sethysquare (3965 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: It is exactly the same.

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#72 Posted by TrueIlluminatus (9579 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyborg sucks.

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#73 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare: But he hasn't been a titan for a long time.

He was just before he joined the Justice League pre-Flashpoint.

Just like how Dick have not been a titan for a long time.

He was one just before Battle For the Cowl. He basically stopped being one when he became Batman.

Its like saying Dick is a titan, so he should never have been batman.

In this case we're talking about a person going into a new team, you're comparing it to a person assuming a different identity because of previous affilations. Not only is wrong, because its nothing of the like, but the comparison isn't related.

He should always stay a titan and never move to the justice league.

In one case he moved on to the Justice League, in the other case he became a founding father for the Justice League. What its like is saying that Nightwing is retconned as being a founding father of the team because Batman didn't want to be part of it due to all of his "loner" shenanigans. Much closer comparison.

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#74 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

I will agree that it's ridiculous he doesn't have a solo title. If he's a founding justice leaguer, he should get the founder treatment.

This is part of the problem I have with the new Cyborg (Other than the fact that he's a kid in a grown up team). Not that other heroes have titles, but that other heroes are established. That's what JLA is, established heroes who have experience and know how it works, banding together to defeat threats none of them individually can handle. Cyborg isn't. Cyborg, in the new continuity, exists solely for the purpose of being in the League. He has no story outside of it, everything he has, everything he is, is tied to the League. If it weren't for the League, he wouldn't exist either. That's not the kind of characters the League should have. If you want to exist solely for the purpose of being on a team, join the X-men or Doom Patrol. League should be about characters who already have stories of their own.

Of course given how horribad Johns' writing has been so far, Cyborg doesn't have much of a story within the League either, and that only makes it worse.

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#75 Edited by Lvenger (36338 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: You've made a very strong case about your argument which you're obviously passionate about. I remember your proposed redesign for Cyborg which shows your great interest in the character. However at the end of the day whilst I respect your opinion mine still hasn't changed that Cyborg being a founding member is strange to me. As such we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter. Oh and a few more things.

Firstly I don't blame Cyborg for the continuity issue as Donna and Wally are absent as well. Secondly I am not of the Cyborg hating viewpoint. After Dick Grayson, he was my favourite of Wolfman's Teen Titans. Thirdly, I am liking Cyborg's role 5 years on but I still don't believe Cyborg being a founder fits with his continuity. Finally, I'm only 18 and I still found Wolfman's run to be a fresh, mature take on comic book writing.

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#76 Posted by Gambit1024 (10217 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Captain13: You've made a very strong case about your argument which you're obviously passionate about. I remember your proposed redesign for Cyborg which shows your great interest in the character. However at the end of the day whilst I respect your opinion mine still hasn't changed that Cyborg being a founding member is strange to me. As such we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter. Oh and a few more things.

Firstly I don't blame Cyborg for the continuity issue as Donna and Wally are absent as well. Secondly I am not of the Cyborg hating viewpoint. After Dick Grayson, he was my favourite of Wolfman's Teen Titans. Thirdly, I am liking Cyborg's role 5 years on but I still don't believe Cyborg being a founder fits with his continuity. Finally, I'm only 18 and I still found Wolfman's run to be a fresh, mature take on comic book writing.

I feel exactly the same way, and I'm 19, fyi.

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#77 Edited by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

Cyborg sucks.

GTHO

Cyborg's New 52 (DCnU) functions

  • Cybernetics: Cyborg possesses cybernetic enhancements that provide superhuman strength, endurance and durability. Cyborg can also interface with computers. Built into his body-armor are an infrared eye, computer generator, sound amplifier, and special programming adapters that allow him to interface with other body extensions.
  • Body Resistance: The nature of Cyborg's body provides him with natural body armor offering resistance versus physical damage and energy attacks.
  • Superhuman Strength: At optimal capacity, Vic can lift/press in excess of several tons. Cyborg's upper strength limits have fluctuated with upgrades to his systems over time.
  • Superhuman Speed: He possessed a degree of superspeed and could leap great distances.
  • Superhuman Endurance
  • Superhuman Durability: His bones are reinforced with molybdenum-steel.
  • Computer Interfacing
  • Flight: Powered by boot jets
  • Integrated Weapons
  • Sensor Systems
  • Teleportation: Cyborg can open a Boom Tube extra-dimensional point-to-point travel portal to teleport him and his companions.
No Caption Provided

@AtPhantom said:

@fodigg said:

I will agree that it's ridiculous he doesn't have a solo title. If he's a founding justice leaguer, he should get the founder treatment.

This is part of the problem I have with the new Cyborg (Other than the fact that he's a kid in a grown up team). Not that other heroes have titles, but that other heroes are established. That's what JLA is, established heroes who have experience and know how it works, banding together to defeat threats none of them individually can handle. Cyborg isn't. Cyborg, in the new continuity, exists solely for the purpose of being in the League. He has no story outside of it, everything he has, everything he is, is tied to the League. If it weren't for the League, he wouldn't exist either. That's not the kind of characters the League should have. If you want to exist solely for the purpose of being on a team, join the X-men or Doom Patrol. League should be about characters who already have stories of their own.

Of course given how horribad Johns' writing has been so far, Cyborg doesn't have much of a story within the League either, and that only makes it worse.

MM was a League only member and for that he was dropped, so DC agrees with you. With all the back-up materila in JL and due to the FCBD issue, I think that DC is building up Cyborg before giving him a solo series. He'll probs get one after Johns has written Aquaman for anoher year. I agree that he desperately needs a solo if he's going to get more respect. And at the start of the new JLA, none of the heroes is that experienced.

@Lvenger said:

@Captain13: You've made a very strong case about your argument which you're obviously passionate about. I remember your proposed redesign for Cyborg which shows your great interest in the character. However at the end of the day whilst I respect your opinion mine still hasn't changed that Cyborg being a founding member is strange to me. As such we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter. Oh and a few more things.

Firstly I don't blame Cyborg for the continuity issue as Donna and Wally are absent as well. Secondly I am not of the Cyborg hating viewpoint. After Dick Grayson, he was my favourite of Wolfman's Teen Titans. Finally, I'm only 18 and I still found Wolfman's run to be a fresh, mature take on comic book writing.

I understand where you're coming from and I also agree to disagree. To each his own! I wouldn't like this site if everyone agreed with me on everything. Good day, sir. *Tips hat

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#78 Edited by Twentyfive (3057 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

I will agree that it's ridiculous he doesn't have a solo title. If he's a founding justice leaguer, he should get the founder treatment.

With time, I hope so. I can honestly see some good stories coming from him. I actually have some in my head now. However, given the way I've seen him treated by posters on this and numerous other websites, I fear his book won't sell as I hope. But I do wish it was him replacing the JLI comic instead of National Comics.

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#79 Posted by BigBDawg (292 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Vic is a good hero too, but he just isn't at the kind of state he was when he had joined the JLA late in the life of the DC Universe. It's why I am iffy on him as he is now in the New 52 personally.

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#80 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

@Illuminatus said:

Cyborg sucks.

GTHO

Cyborg's New 52 (DCnU) functions

  • Cybernetics: Cyborg possesses cybernetic enhancements that provide superhuman strength, endurance and durability. Cyborg can also interface with computers. Built into his body-armor are an infrared eye, computer generator, sound amplifier, and special programming adapters that allow him to interface with other body extensions.
  • Body Resistance: The nature of Cyborg's body provides him with natural body armor offering resistance versus physical damage and energy attacks.
  • Superhuman Strength: At optimal capacity, Vic can lift/press in excess of several tons. Cyborg's upper strength limits have fluctuated with upgrades to his systems over time.
  • Superhuman Speed: He possessed a degree of superspeed and could leap great distances.
  • Superhuman Endurance
  • Superhuman Durability: His bones are reinforced with molybdenum-steel.
  • Computer Interfacing
  • Flight: Powered by boot jets
  • Integrated Weapons
  • Sensor Systems
  • Teleportation: Cyborg can open a Boom Tube extra-dimensional point-to-point travel portal to teleport him and his companions.

What is this obsession with listing powers as an argument that this somehow makes a great character? And I'm not pinning this solely on you, but on a trend on the Vine I've observed in the last few days. Seriously people, lay it off, it doesn't help your argument.

@Captain13 said:

MM was a League only member and for that he was dropped, so DC agrees with you. With all the back-up materila in JL and due to the FCBD issue, I think that DC is building up Cyborg before giving him a solo series. He'll probs get one after Johns has written Aquaman for anoher year. I agree that he desperately needs a solo if he's going to get more respect. And at the start of the new JLA, none of the heroes is that experienced.

Ha. The Manhunter has had decades of adventures before he would join the league, and his ample volumes of comics prove that. Whether or not the heroes are experienced is beside the point that they're established. Cyborg is not. Sure, you can say that they're building him up for a series (Though I see no evidence of it), but if they are, they're doing it in the most ass-backwards way possible.

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#81 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@Captain13 said:

@Illuminatus said:

Cyborg sucks.

GTHO

Cyborg's New 52 (DCnU) functions

  • Cybernetics: Cyborg possesses cybernetic enhancements that provide superhuman strength, endurance and durability. Cyborg can also interface with computers. Built into his body-armor are an infrared eye, computer generator, sound amplifier, and special programming adapters that allow him to interface with other body extensions.
  • Body Resistance: The nature of Cyborg's body provides him with natural body armor offering resistance versus physical damage and energy attacks.
  • Superhuman Strength: At optimal capacity, Vic can lift/press in excess of several tons. Cyborg's upper strength limits have fluctuated with upgrades to his systems over time.
  • Superhuman Speed: He possessed a degree of superspeed and could leap great distances.
  • Superhuman Endurance
  • Superhuman Durability: His bones are reinforced with molybdenum-steel.
  • Computer Interfacing
  • Flight: Powered by boot jets
  • Integrated Weapons
  • Sensor Systems
  • Teleportation: Cyborg can open a Boom Tube extra-dimensional point-to-point travel portal to teleport him and his companions.

What is this obsession with listing powers as an argument that this somehow makes a great character? And I'm not pinning this solely on you, but on a trend on the Vine I've observed in the last few days. Seriously people, lay it off, it doesn't help your argument.

Listing powers shows that the character is useful or unique in terms of abilities. Cyborg's been called useless by a lot of people recently even though that doesn't make logical sense. I agree that a great character stems from personality and his/her adventures.

@AtPhantom said:

Ha. The Manhunter has had decades of adventures before he would join the league, and his ample volumes of comics prove that. Whether or not the heroes are experienced is beside the point that they're established. Cyborg is not. Sure, you can say that they're building him up for a series (Though I see no evidence of it), but if they are, they're doing it in the most ass-backwards way possible.

Martian Manhunter appeared in 1955 and the Justice League debuted in 1960. Not exactly a full decade of adventures, friend. In some interpretations of the origin, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter are not established heroes until the start of the Justice League (see Bruce Timm cartoon). And when the Justice League is rebooted again in a few years or decades, he may be an established hero before hand. Who knows? It's nbd.

Evidence of a series is the FCBD issue that sets the tone of a Cyborg book, and the back up material in the Justice League books that heavily defines Cyborg's supporting cast (Sarah Charles, Dr. Silas Stone, Dr. Morrow, Dr. Ivo). The best part of Johns' writing is his development of villains and side characters, which is what this material does. I could see him laying the groundwork for a solo written by Johns himself after he leaves Aquaman.

Hopefully with art by Kenneth Rocafort!

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#82 Posted by Video_Martian (5650 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: LOL Calm down Dude. I never said Cyborg himself was useless, I just said that he seems useless on the JL especially since he's never been a founder of the team until now; he's always been a Titan. And I'm just saying my opinion, not everyone on this site has to agree with me.

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#83 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyborg was a Titan.To retcon him so he could be a member of the league was stupid.They should have used Vixen, thus putting not only a black superhero on the team that has been a member of the league but it also makes the JLA less of a sausage party now with two females on the team.

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#84 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr.obvious said:

@Captain13: LOL Calm down Dude. I never said Cyborg himself was useless, I just said that he seems useless on the JL especially since he's never been a founder of the team until now; he's always been a Titan. And I'm just saying my opinion, not everyone on this site has to agree with me.

I have no beef with you, and I'm feeling pretty chill. Thanks. ;-P

TTYL

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#85 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

Cyborg was a Titan.To retcon him so he could be a member of the league was stupid.

Let's agree to disagree on this one, bud.

@Vance Astro said:

They should have used Vixen, thus putting not only a black superhero on the team that has been a member of the league but it also makes the JLA less of a sausage party now with two females on the team.

This doesn't exactly address you point but--Storm is a popular Black female comic book character. There are no Black male characters with that level of popularity. I'm hoping that Cyborg does reach that level--or higher.

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#86 Posted by TheAnnihilator (1048 posts) - - Show Bio

ALLLLLLLLLL CAAAAAAAAAAPS RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

Cyborg shouldn't be on the JLA.

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#87 Posted by Video_Martian (5650 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: Awesome, thanks for understanding :)

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#88 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain13 said:

Let's agree to disagree on this one, bud.

It was stupid.Why have a character roll with a certain group of characters for 30 years and then decide to do something different? Cyborg was one of the most iconic members of the Titans. You really think putting him on the Justice League will change that. 
 
@Captain13 said:

This doesn't exactly address you point but--Storm is a popular Black female comic book character. There are no Black male characters with that level of popularity. I'm hoping that Cyborg does reach that level--or higher.

It's not going to change for Cyborg.He lacks what the other members have.Let's start with an ongoing comic.This is affirmative action placement.DC doesn't appear to have any plans of making Cyborg's popularity rival that of the other characters on the team.
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#89 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3080 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

@Captain13: I do agree. I think Cyborg would make a much more compelling justice league member because there are more stuff to write about him.

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#90 Edited by Twentyfive (3057 posts) - - Show Bio

Comics won't evolve because the readers expect the same things, even after a universe has been rebooted. That is one of my problems with comics, and part of why it is hard for some people to take them seriously. If you don't like Cybprg being a founding member, go cry about it. It isn't going to change. And to you people saying 'he is useless on the JLA' or 'he was more useful on TT than he is now', that is among the dumbest things I have ever read on this site. The members of the Titans have THE SAME powers as those of the JLA (minus GL). How is he less useful here than he was with the Titans? That is just not a smart thing to say, and leads me to believe that you do have contempt for this character. You want MMH, read Stormwatch. He's doing well there. It hasn't even been A YEAR, and you people are going nuts.

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#91 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

Listing powers shows that the character is useful or unique in terms of abilities. Cyborg's been called useless by a lot of people recently even though that doesn't make logical sense. I agree that a great character stems from personality and his/her adventures.

That's fair. Except the argument is that he sucks. Not that he's useless.

Martian Manhunter appeared in 1955 and the Justice League debuted in 1960. Not exactly a full decade of adventures, friend. In some interpretations of the origin, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter are not established heroes until the start of the Justice League (see Bruce Timm cartoon). And when the Justice League is rebooted again in a few years or decades, he may be an established hero before hand. Who knows? It's nbd.

Evidence of a series is the FCBD issue that sets the tone of a Cyborg book, and the back up material in the Justice League books that heavily defines Cyborg's supporting cast (Sarah Charles, Dr. Silas Stone, Dr. Morrow, Dr. Ivo). The best part of Johns' writing is his development of villains and side characters, which is what this material does. I could see him laying the groundwork for a solo written by Johns himself after he leaves Aquaman.

I was talking about in comic book time, and the Martian was accepted as coming to earth all the way back in the fifties. Now fair enough, Wonder Woman didn't exist in JLU before the series either (The Martian did. There is considerable backstory to him as a warrior against the aliens before coming to earth). I didn't say that is a good thing either (and her introduction with he whole "Where've you been all my life?" from Flash was probably the weakest part of the episode), nor are we here to discuss the animated versions of the League. But at least in her case, he did have the inertia of having been part of the League for decades before Cuborg doesn't even have that.

And on a side note, I don't know if Johns is prepping for a Cubrog series or not (And I don't really care much to be honest), but regardless, I wish he would just focus on a book or two instead of personally writing everything of any importance in DCU.

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#92 Posted by tcJackal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

Cyborg sucks.

To counteract this blunt post, Cyborg's awesome sauce

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#93 Edited by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Captain13 said:

Let's agree to disagree on this one, bud.

It was stupid.Why have a character roll with a certain group of characters for 30 years and then decide to do something different? Cyborg was one of the most iconic members of the Titans. You really think putting him on the Justice League will change that.

Wolverine is an X-Man who has sucessfully tranistion to the Avengers.

Spider-Man is a solo hero who has sucessfully transitioned into both the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

What's your point, dude?

He adds a new dynamic to the team instead of repeating the same old stuff. In less than a decade he'll be an iconic Justice Leaguer.

@Vance Astro said:

@Captain13 said:

This doesn't exactly address you point but--Storm is a popular Black female comic book character. There are no Black male characters with that level of popularity. I'm hoping that Cyborg does reach that level--or higher.

It's not going to change for Cyborg.He lacks what the other members have.Let's start with an ongoing comic.This is affirmative action placement.DC doesn't appear to have any plans of making Cyborg's popularity rival that of the other characters on the team.

Okay, so you want an ongoing comic for Cyborg but you're not supporting him in the Justice League? You're shooting yourself in the foot, man. The longer that people complain, he longer DC will wait to release a solo. They want him to do well, so they're not going to embarrass themselves by putting him in book before fans are ready. And who cares if it is for Affirmative Action or Race? I'd rather DC start fixing the race issue than ignore it for another 70+ years. I applaud them for this. As a Black man, I'm happy to be represented by the heroic, amazing Cyborg.

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#94 Posted by Deranged Midget (18346 posts) - - Show Bio

I prefer Martian Manhunter. He is and always should be a founding member of the Justice League. Cyborg is a cool character and makes a pretty good leaguer, but not a founder.

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#95 Posted by Rumble Man (11195 posts) - - Show Bio
at this thread
at this thread
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#96 Edited by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

at you
at you

Nice pic, seriously

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#97 Posted by Rumble Man (11195 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13: it just sucks that the writers had to desperately remold cyborg's power set to 'fit' him in JLA, they can say story or diversity (whatever politically correct reasoning they use today) but he will always be in the shadow of Manhunter.

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#98 Posted by fodigg (6244 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@fodigg said:

I will agree that it's ridiculous he doesn't have a solo title. If he's a founding justice leaguer, he should get the founder treatment.

This is part of the problem I have with the new Cyborg (Other than the fact that he's a kid in a grown up team). Not that other heroes have titles, but that other heroes are established. That's what JLA is, established heroes who have experience and know how it works, banding together to defeat threats none of them individually can handle. Cyborg isn't. Cyborg, in the new continuity, exists solely for the purpose of being in the League. He has no story outside of it, everything he has, everything he is, is tied to the League. If it weren't for the League, he wouldn't exist either. That's not the kind of characters the League should have. If you want to exist solely for the purpose of being on a team, join the X-men or Doom Patrol. League should be about characters who already have stories of their own.

Of course given how horribad Johns' writing has been so far, Cyborg doesn't have much of a story within the League either, and that only makes it worse.

I think you make good points, I'm just not convinced the problem is necessarily the character. I think they just really dropped the ball by not giving us a solo title for him. Especially when, as you said, they haven't even given him enough face time in the JL title. Cyborg is definitely worthy of "founder" status, but they're not going to win people over by treating him like a second stringer.

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#99 Posted by Captain13 (4773 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget said:

I prefer Martian Manhunter. He is and always should be a founding member of the Justice League. Cyborg is a cool character and makes a pretty good leaguer, but not a founder.

I disagree, but I respect your opinion.

@Rumble Man said:

@Captain13: it just sucks that the writers had to desperately remold cyborg's power set to 'fit' him in JLA, they can say story or diversity (whatever politically correct reasoning they use today) but he will always be in the shadow of Manhunter.

I don't think he'll be in his shadow at all. It's not like Cyborg is a spin-off character. And I'm sure that he gets new fans every day. But I can see that I probs won't convince you.

@fodigg said:

@AtPhantom said:

@fodigg said:

I will agree that it's ridiculous he doesn't have a solo title. If he's a founding justice leaguer, he should get the founder treatment.

This is part of the problem I have with the new Cyborg (Other than the fact that he's a kid in a grown up team). Not that other heroes have titles, but that other heroes are established. That's what JLA is, established heroes who have experience and know how it works, banding together to defeat threats none of them individually can handle. Cyborg isn't. Cyborg, in the new continuity, exists solely for the purpose of being in the League. He has no story outside of it, everything he has, everything he is, is tied to the League. If it weren't for the League, he wouldn't exist either. That's not the kind of characters the League should have. If you want to exist solely for the purpose of being on a team, join the X-men or Doom Patrol. League should be about characters who already have stories of their own.

Of course given how horribad Johns' writing has been so far, Cyborg doesn't have much of a story within the League either, and that only makes it worse.

I think you make good points, I'm just not convinced the problem is necessarily the character. I think they just really dropped the ball by not giving us a solo title for him. Especially when, as you said, they haven't even given him enough face time in the JL title. Cyborg is definitely worthy of "founder" status, but they're not going to win people over by treating him like a second stringer.

QFT

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#100 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@Captain13 said:

Wolverine is an X-Man who has sucessfully tranistion to the Avengers.

Spider-Man is a solo hero who has sucessfully transitioned into both the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

What's your point, dude?

He adds a new dynamic to the team instead of repeating the same old stuff. In less than a decade he'll be an iconic Justice Leaguer.

I love how you pointed out 2 Avengers who most people think SHOULDN'T be on the team to prove your point.
 
 @Captain13 said:

Okay, so you want an ongoing comic for Cyborg but you're not supporting him in the Justice League? You're shooting yourself in the foot, man. The longer that people complain, he longer DC will wait to release a solo. They want him to do well, so they're not going to embarrass themselves by putting him in book before fans are ready. And who cares if it is for Affirmative Action or Race? I'd rather DC start fixing the race issue than ignore it for another 70+ years. I applaud them for this. As a Black man, I'm happy to be represented by the heroic, amazing Cyborg.

How am I shooting myself in the foot? An ongoing would give Cyborg his own stories and along with it his own significance away from the league.Something the rest of the team has.They are all sharing the spotlight in this book, but because they are all more popular than Cyborg, of course the other members will get more attention and do more in the book that he will and on top of it they get to be stars of their own books.Without Justice League Cyborg doesn't matter.He's not going to gain popularity by being overshadowed in a team book. War Machine appears in Secret Avengers,appeared in the Iron Man film and had his own ongoing yet he's still playing catch up with Storm.You think Cyborg is going to fair better by simply being a member of the league? Black Men have been members of the league before.It doesn't matter that Cyborg is now a founding member because people only care about what you did as a member not who was there first.I care that it's afrrimative action because it's phony attempt at selling a black character.
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