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    Jason Todd

    Character » Jason Todd appears in 1742 issues.

    Jason Todd was the second Robin, until he was brutally murdered by the Joker. After he was resurrected, Jason learned Batman didn't avenge his death. Anguished and seeking vengeance, he initially turned against his mentor and father figure and took on the Clown Prince's former identity: the Red Hood. He eventually returned to the Bat-Family and assembled a team of anti-heroes known as the Outlaws.

    How can we fix Red Hood ?

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    midnightdragon18

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    #2  Edited By Dark_Tzitzimine

    Keeping him the hell away of Snyder, Tynion and Orlando. So basically, away from the Batman offices.

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    daredevil21134

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    midnightdragon18

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    @daredevil21134: I've never understood why dc won't allow him to write a Red Hood solo.

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    daredevil21134

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    @daredevil21134: I've never understood why dc won't allow him to write a Red Hood solo.

    I am dumbfounded by that.I thought the New 52 was the perfect chance to let him write it.Hopefully they bring him back after Lobdell is done with his uninspiring run.

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    entropy_aegis

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    #7  Edited By entropy_aegis

    Valentine,Orlando,Tomasi I think the Batman office has plenty of good writers capable of writing decent JT stories. But first the Superman editorial has to let him go.

    @midnightdragon18 said:

    @daredevil21134: I've never understood why dc won't allow him to write a Red Hood solo.

    Because his work was mostly rubbish? remember Catwoman ? remember his final story with Jason in Batman and Robin? remember the 2 forgettable Jason stories in Outsiders and Green Arrow? even Lost Days was rubbish which writers dont acknowledge despite what Jason fans think. Winick exhausted all his ideas on UTRH and you could tell from his work that DITF was the starting point for his character nothing mattered before then and unfortunately nothing from Winick's work makes me believe anything mattered after then either.

    Winick wrote a sequel to DITF and that's pretty much it.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    Valentine,Orlando,Tomasi I think the Batman office has plenty of good writers capable of writing decent JT stories. But first the Superman editorial has to let him go.

    @midnightdragon18 said:

    @daredevil21134: I've never understood why dc won't allow him to write a Red Hood solo.

    Because his work was mostly rubbish? remember Catwoman ? remember his final story with Jason in Batman and Robin? remember the 2 forgettable Jason stories in Outsiders and Green Arrow? even Lost Days was rubbish which writers dont acknowledge despite what Jason fans think. Winick exhausted all his ideas on UTRH and you could tell from his work that DITF was the starting point for his character nothing mattered before then and unfortunately nothing from Winick's work makes me believe anything mattered after then either.

    Winick wrote a sequel to DITF and that's pretty much it.

    Somebody had to say it.

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    daredevil21134

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    #9  Edited By daredevil21134

    @entropy_aegis: I'm gonna disagree with you on Lost Days.I know you hate the fact that he made Jason bang Talia ,and I get that,but I enjoyed the story quite a bit.I thought it was pretty fun.I'm not gonna give him crap for the Batman and Robin story since by the time he got his hands back on Jason,Morisson and Daniels took a dump on his work.There was no reason why Winick shouldn't have been given a chance to write a solo after Under the Red Hood instead of having Bruce Jones throw him in a Nightwing costume.I don't believe for one second Winick exhausted all his ideas after Under the Hood.Had he been in charge of the character like exclusively like Ed Brubabker was with Bucky we wouldn't have had a bunch of bad appearances of Jason post Winick.I think Lobdell has taken the Jason as far as he could and I think Winick should be given a chance to write a solo on the character he made popular.But,I'd definitely welcome Tomasi.

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    Winnick never knew what to do with Jason after his resurrection, and every story post UtRH makes this fact painfully obvious. His Jason was a one trick pony that never grew beyond the angsty badass characterization.

    Lost Days has some good moments but it doesn't holds up on re-reads, is extremely formulaic, doesn't adds nothing of substance to Jason's backstory and the finaly issue derails Talia character for no good reason.

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    midnightdragon18

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    @dark_tzitzimine: he was never given a chance to write Jason, what are you talking about ?

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    entropy_aegis

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    midnightdragon18

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    @entropy_aegis: yeah, now name one red hood solo he wrote. Lost days doesn't count, that was a mini series.

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    entropy_aegis

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    @entropy_aegis: yeah, now name one red hood solo he wrote. Lost days doesn't count, that was a mini series.

    You said he was never given a "chance" you're wrong.

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    midnightdragon18

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    #15  Edited By midnightdragon18

    @entropy_aegis: look at my first comment, comment #5, i clearly said red hood solo.

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    #16  Edited By Dark_Tzitzimine

    The point still stands, Winnick just knows a way to write Jason whether is a supporting character nor in a solo story.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    To be fair, he's only written him in two solos (And those were mini's), and one was a prequel to the other explaining how the character became the character he was in the other. So naturally Jason in Lost Days should be written in the exact same way as in Under the Hood, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense. Have him actually write the character at a different point in life and i'd think you could expect something different.

    At the least, nothing he's written has been as bad as the current run.

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    #18  Edited By Dark_Tzitzimine

    Lost Days is bad, the final B&R story is awful and the GA story was just a poor retread of UtRH. Not really the best credentials.

    On the other hand, is clear that DC considers RHATO the most succesful version of Jason and thus the reason Lobdell keeps being on charge.

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    Jonny_Anonymous

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    Give him to Brian Azzarello

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @dark_tzitzimine said:

    Lost Days is bad, the final B&R story is awful and the GA story was just a poor retread of UtRH. Not really the best credentials.

    On the other hand, is clear that DC considers RHATO the most succesful version of Jason and thus the reason Lobdell keeps being on charge.

    Under the Hood-Excellent

    Lost Days- Eh. It's really what it says on the tin, Jason going around to different people and training until he's at the point where he can face Batman. Not much story to it behind that, and it made it clear that if nothing else Winick seems to feel there's credible sexual tension between Jason and Talia, due to issues (For Talia at least) with Bruce. Jason himself wasn't even written badly here. It was just a bland story overall that I couldn't bring myself to care about.

    Batman and Robin- Disagree, wasn't awful at all. Nothing special, but nothing bad either. Was a fairly generic Batman story. Problem with that is that there's no resolution to it. My biggest gripe with it is that Jason's too cocky for his own good here, to the point that it then makes Dick and Damian look bad.

    GA- Just Batman and Jason getting a cameo in Oliver's story. Like Batman and Robin it wasn't awful however. It's also consistent with the way Jason was portrayed in Under the Hood, so while it doesn't go over anything new it also isn't contradicting anything from the past, which is a point in it's favor. Not every appearance with a character has to do something big or life changing, the majority of comics in fact don't. They just have the character being who he/she is and going through an adventure. It's just when this is piled up on top of everything else that the sum total starts to look annoying.

    I'd then take all of this over Lobdell, who has nothing excellent to his name and is just terrible at this point.

    Which is sad on DC's part and must mean that they have absolutely no one else that wants to write Jason, because Lobdell's had the series on a downward spin for a long time now.

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    Under the Hood-Excellent

    Only that animated movie and that was precisely because Winnick fixed all the issues of the comic.

    Lost Days- Eh. It's really what it says on the tin, Jason going around to different people and training until he's at the point where he can face Batman. Not much story to it behind that, and it made it clear that if nothing else Winick seems to feel there's credible sexual tension between Jason and Talia, due to issues (For Talia at least) with Bruce. Jason himself wasn't even written badly here. It was just a bland story overall that I couldn't bring myself to care about.

    We got that on the Annual, making redundant all the time wasted with the training montages and totally murdered Talia's character for cheap shock. Plus, it doesn't even fits as prequel for Hush that was how it was advertised in the first place. Jason wasn't written badly but it was written exactly like he was on UtRH. With no development at all.

    Batman and Robin- Disagree, wasn't awful at all. Nothing special, but nothing bad either. Was a fairly generic Batman story. Problem with that is that there's no resolution to it. My biggest gripe with it is that Jason's too cocky for his own good here, to the point that it then makes Dick and Damian look bad.

    Exactly, was mediocre, pointless and didn't add nothing new to the character.

    GA- Just Batman and Jason getting a cameo in Oliver's story. Like Batman and Robin it wasn't awful however. It's also consistent with the way Jason was portrayed in Under the Hood, so while it doesn't go over anything new it also isn't contradicting anything from the past, which is a point in it's favor. Not every appearance with a character has to do something big or life changing, the majority of comics in fact don't. They just have the character being who he/she is and going through an adventure. It's just when this is piled up on top of everything else that the sum total starts to look annoying.

    No, not every story needs to introduce a massive shift of the status quo but considering is following the events of UtRH it should've shown a character development for both Jason and Bruce. That is the problem with Winnick's Jason, is stagnant and never could grew out of the "My life revolves around Batman" phase.

    I'd then take all of this over Lobdell, who has nothing excellent to his name and is just terrible at this point.

    Generation X, Age of Apocalypse back on his Marvel days and RHATO/RHA, Superboy and Doomed on DC

    Which is sad on DC's part and must mean that they have absolutely no one else that wants to write Jason, because Lobdell's had the series on a downward spin for a long time now

    And yet is under his tenure that Jason has became a definitive member of the Batman Mythos, has found a place on the DCU and has seen a considerable raise in popularity, unlike Winnick's tenure.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @dark_tzitzimine said:

    Under the Hood-Excellent

    Only that animated movie and that was precisely because Winnick fixed all the issues of the comic.

    Lost Days- Eh. It's really what it says on the tin, Jason going around to different people and training until he's at the point where he can face Batman. Not much story to it behind that, and it made it clear that if nothing else Winick seems to feel there's credible sexual tension between Jason and Talia, due to issues (For Talia at least) with Bruce. Jason himself wasn't even written badly here. It was just a bland story overall that I couldn't bring myself to care about.

    We got that on the Annual, making redundant all the time wasted with the training montages and totally murdered Talia's character for cheap shock. Plus, it doesn't even fits as prequel for Hush that was how it was advertised in the first place. Jason wasn't written badly but it was written exactly like he was on UtRH. With no development at all.

    Batman and Robin- Disagree, wasn't awful at all. Nothing special, but nothing bad either. Was a fairly generic Batman story. Problem with that is that there's no resolution to it. My biggest gripe with it is that Jason's too cocky for his own good here, to the point that it then makes Dick and Damian look bad.

    Exactly, was mediocre, pointless and didn't add nothing new to the character.

    GA- Just Batman and Jason getting a cameo in Oliver's story. Like Batman and Robin it wasn't awful however. It's also consistent with the way Jason was portrayed in Under the Hood, so while it doesn't go over anything new it also isn't contradicting anything from the past, which is a point in it's favor. Not every appearance with a character has to do something big or life changing, the majority of comics in fact don't. They just have the character being who he/she is and going through an adventure. It's just when this is piled up on top of everything else that the sum total starts to look annoying.

    No, not every story needs to introduce a massive shift of the status quo but considering is following the events of UtRH it should've shown a character development for both Jason and Bruce. That is the problem with Winnick's Jason, is stagnant and never could grew out of the "My life revolves around Batman" phase.

    I'd then take all of this over Lobdell, who has nothing excellent to his name and is just terrible at this point.

    Generation X, Age of Apocalypse back on his Marvel days and RHATO/RHA, Superboy and Doomed on DC

    Which is sad on DC's part and must mean that they have absolutely no one else that wants to write Jason, because Lobdell's had the series on a downward spin for a long time now

    And yet is under his tenure that Jason has became a definitive member of the Batman Mythos, has found a place on the DCU and has seen a considerable raise in popularity, unlike Winnick's tenure.

    Winick wrote the film, so if anything that only adds to his credibility that he was able to take a previous story and make it even better. (Though the comic is fine as is, with Superboy Prime's Retcon punbh being the only real flaw.

    Jason in Lost Days was written the same way as in Under the Hood? Maybe because it's a prequel to Under the Hood, explaining how he got the skills he'd then use in Under the Hood. Obviously he's written the same way and that's the way he should be written.

    I don't see a story as pointless because it doesn't add anything new, ergo I have no problem with Jason's last appearance in Batman and Robin. It's worst crime is being mediocre.

    Expecting major character growth when a character's appearing in someone else's title is silly in my opinion. He wrote Jason in the "My Life Revolves around Batman phase" because that's the phase the character's life was in lol Jason hadn't appeared at all in Batman when he appeared in GA, therefore he hasn't been developed at all, hence he's not going to be written as any differently, since nothing has taken place to allow him to get over his issues with Bruce yet. That's still a plot element that has yet to be concluded. It would've been ridiculous in my opinion had he been acting any differently.

    Superboy, Doomed-Trash, never read Generation X, didn't realize he did Age of Apoclypse however, so that's a point in his favor. As we've all gone over in previous threads, Red Hood and Arsenal is trash, continued from Red Hood and the Outlaws (Which to it's credit didn't start off as trash)

    What are you talking about? Lobdell has not established Jason as a part of the Batman Mythos. That happened decades ago, the second Jason was created and made the second Robin. That was then furthered by Jason dying at the hands of the Joker. The fact he continued to resonate in stories afterwards and was even brought back at all is a testament to this fact. All Lobdell's done is taken the character in a new direction. May as well try to say that Grayson has established Dick as a part of the Batman mythos, when the character's been around for decades beforehand. Increase popularity? Under the Hood is the only reason Jason's even relevant in people's minds again. Lobdell has done nothing more than Morrison did in making Jason popular, with both only even having the chance because of Winick. Under the Hood's easily one of Jason's most popular stories (There's a reason it's the Jason Todd story that got adapted into a film), if not the most popular, yet you think it did nothing to increase his popularity among the fanbase? LOL and nothing you say changes the fact that Lobdell, who you claim has increased Jason's popularity completely on his own with aid from no other writer, has a series that is currently tanking, doing worse than nearly all of the other Bat Universe books. Furthermore, despite your decision to ignore it, Lobdell's the only one that's had a "tenure" with Jason Todd since his return. Winick only had mini's and the rest just got to write Jason appearing within another series. Therefore, obviously no one else was able to give Jason a specific spot in the DCU, because no one else has been given the chance to write him on a regular basis. Lobdell's been given plenty of time and it's clearly not working in the long run, hence the series sales plummetting.

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    Dark_Tzitzimine

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    Winick wrote the film, so if anything that only adds to his credibility that he was able to take a previous story and make it even better. (Though the comic is fine as is, with Superboy Prime's Retcon punbh being the only real flaw.

    Hindsight is 20/20 and if you haven't noticed UtRH was never considered a great story by the public at large.

    Jason in Lost Days was written the same way as in Under the Hood? Maybe because it's a prequel to Under the Hood, explaining how he got the skills he'd then use in Under the Hood. Obviously he's written the same way and that's the way he should be written.

    More important than explaining the skills Jason got, Winnick should've bothered to explain how is the Jason on UtRH came to be, explore his moral code and where it comes from the idea of controlling crime, just like any good prequel should do.

    I don't see a story as pointless because it doesn't add anything new, ergo I have no problem with Jason's last appearance in Batman and Robin. It's worst crime is being mediocre.

    Mediocre is the same as pointless and certainly an horrible sendoff for his character. Luckily that was fixed with the Convergence issues.

    Expecting major character growth when a character's appearing in someone else's title is silly in my opinion. He wrote Jason in the "My Life Revolves around Batman phase" because that's the phase the character's life was in lol Jason hadn't appeared at all in Batman when he appeared in GA, therefore he hasn't been developed at all, hence he's not going to be written as any differently, since nothing has taken place to allow him to get over his issues with Bruce yet. That's still a plot element that has yet to be concluded. It would've been ridiculous in my opinion had he been acting any differently.

    Except that he was coming off UtRH and the natural development for any good character is to grow due the experiences he has lived. As it stands on the GA is like UtRH never happened because neither Bruce nor Jason changed at all at how they were at the start of UtRH

    Superboy, Doomed-Trash, never read Generation X, didn't realize he did Age of Apoclypse however, so that's a point in his favor. As we've all gone over in previous threads, Red Hood and Arsenal is trash, continued from Red Hood and the Outlaws (Which to it's credit didn't start off as trash)

    If you don't like the book is fine but it certainly isn't trash.

    What are you talking about? Lobdell has not established Jason as a part of the Batman Mythos. That happened decades ago, the second Jason was created and made the second Robin. That was then furthered by Jason dying at the hands of the Joker. The fact he continued to resonate in stories afterwards and was even brought back at all is a testament to this fact. All Lobdell's done is taken the character in a new direction. May as well try to say that Grayson has established Dick as a part of the Batman mythos, when the character's been around for decades beforehand.

    Before RHATO, Jason only weight into the bat mythos was that of a reminder of Batman's failure. Unlike Bucky, Jason's return never had an endgoal an Winnick has mentioned he never intended for him to be more than one off villian. The lack of a solid direction soured a lot of peoplee on his resurrection than saw it as being utterly pointless and destroying a classic story for no good reason. Lobdell gave the resurrected Jason a purpose and a place within the DCU, fully reincorporating him into the fold and opening the door to new stories. Just like Grayson has done now to Dick according to a lot of people.

    Increase popularity? Under the Hood is the only reason Jason's even relevant in people's minds again. Lobdell has done nothing more than Morrison did in making Jason popular, with both only even having the chance because of Winick. Under the Hood's easily one of Jason's most popular stories (There's a reason it's the Jason Todd story that got adapted into a film), if not the most popular, yet you think it did nothing to increase his popularity among the fanbase? LOL and nothing you say changes the fact that Lobdell, who you claim has increased Jason's popularity completely on his own with aid from no other writer, has a series that is currently tanking, doing worse than nearly all of the other Bat Universe books.

    And yet if you look at the work make for the fandom and the mentions of Jason is always RHATO's version. No Morrison nor Winnick but Lobdell's. The animated movie put him on the spotlight but is Lobdell's work what has kept Jason present on people's minds. Take for example the recent popularity poll made by CBR, Jason went from not getting a spot on the top 100 in 2011 to landing in 29th place this year.

    All the DC books are suffering from low sales but even then, RH/A is still selling on the high end of middle tier books and outselling fandom darlings like Midnighter, Gotham Academy, Omega Men, Secret Six or alternate takes like Arkham Knight.

    Furthermore, despite your decision to ignore it, Lobdell's the only one that's had a "tenure" with Jason Todd since his return. Winick only had mini's and the rest just got to write Jason appearing within another series. Therefore, obviously no one else was able to give Jason a specific spot in the DCU, because no one else has been given the chance to write him on a regular basis. Lobdell's been given plenty of time and it's clearly not working in the long run, hence the series sales plummetting

    Did you forgot Countdown? Jason was a lead there and the whole point of it was giving him a place on the DCU. However, just like all the other attempts, editorial couldn't choose a definite route for his character to go and thus nearly every writer gave him their own interpretation in the hopes it would stick.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @dark_tzitzimine said:

    Winick wrote the film, so if anything that only adds to his credibility that he was able to take a previous story and make it even better. (Though the comic is fine as is, with Superboy Prime's Retcon punbh being the only real flaw.

    Hindsight is 20/20 and if you haven't noticed UtRH was never considered a great story by the public at large.

    Jason in Lost Days was written the same way as in Under the Hood? Maybe because it's a prequel to Under the Hood, explaining how he got the skills he'd then use in Under the Hood. Obviously he's written the same way and that's the way he should be written.

    More important than explaining the skills Jason got, Winnick should've bothered to explain how is the Jason on UtRH came to be, explore his moral code and where it comes from the idea of controlling crime, just like any good prequel should do.

    I don't see a story as pointless because it doesn't add anything new, ergo I have no problem with Jason's last appearance in Batman and Robin. It's worst crime is being mediocre.

    Mediocre is the same as pointless and certainly an horrible sendoff for his character. Luckily that was fixed with the Convergence issues.

    Expecting major character growth when a character's appearing in someone else's title is silly in my opinion. He wrote Jason in the "My Life Revolves around Batman phase" because that's the phase the character's life was in lol Jason hadn't appeared at all in Batman when he appeared in GA, therefore he hasn't been developed at all, hence he's not going to be written as any differently, since nothing has taken place to allow him to get over his issues with Bruce yet. That's still a plot element that has yet to be concluded. It would've been ridiculous in my opinion had he been acting any differently.

    Except that he was coming off UtRH and the natural development for any good character is to grow due the experiences he has lived. As it stands on the GA is like UtRH never happened because neither Bruce nor Jason changed at all at how they were at the start of UtRH

    Superboy, Doomed-Trash, never read Generation X, didn't realize he did Age of Apoclypse however, so that's a point in his favor. As we've all gone over in previous threads, Red Hood and Arsenal is trash, continued from Red Hood and the Outlaws (Which to it's credit didn't start off as trash)

    If you don't like the book is fine but it certainly isn't trash.

    What are you talking about? Lobdell has not established Jason as a part of the Batman Mythos. That happened decades ago, the second Jason was created and made the second Robin. That was then furthered by Jason dying at the hands of the Joker. The fact he continued to resonate in stories afterwards and was even brought back at all is a testament to this fact. All Lobdell's done is taken the character in a new direction. May as well try to say that Grayson has established Dick as a part of the Batman mythos, when the character's been around for decades beforehand.

    Before RHATO, Jason only weight into the bat mythos was that of a reminder of Batman's failure. Unlike Bucky, Jason's return never had an endgoal an Winnick has mentioned he never intended for him to be more than one off villian. The lack of a solid direction soured a lot of peoplee on his resurrection than saw it as being utterly pointless and destroying a classic story for no good reason. Lobdell gave the resurrected Jason a purpose and a place within the DCU, fully reincorporating him into the fold and opening the door to new stories. Just like Grayson has done now to Dick according to a lot of people.

    Increase popularity? Under the Hood is the only reason Jason's even relevant in people's minds again. Lobdell has done nothing more than Morrison did in making Jason popular, with both only even having the chance because of Winick. Under the Hood's easily one of Jason's most popular stories (There's a reason it's the Jason Todd story that got adapted into a film), if not the most popular, yet you think it did nothing to increase his popularity among the fanbase? LOL and nothing you say changes the fact that Lobdell, who you claim has increased Jason's popularity completely on his own with aid from no other writer, has a series that is currently tanking, doing worse than nearly all of the other Bat Universe books.

    And yet if you look at the work make for the fandom and the mentions of Jason is always RHATO's version. No Morrison nor Winnick but Lobdell's. The animated movie put him on the spotlight but is Lobdell's work what has kept Jason present on people's minds. Take for example the recent popularity poll made by CBR, Jason went from not getting a spot on the top 100 in 2011 to landing in 29th place this year.

    All the DC books are suffering from low sales but even then, RH/A is still selling on the high end of middle tier books and outselling fandom darlings like Midnighter, Gotham Academy, Omega Men, Secret Six or alternate takes like Arkham Knight.

    Furthermore, despite your decision to ignore it, Lobdell's the only one that's had a "tenure" with Jason Todd since his return. Winick only had mini's and the rest just got to write Jason appearing within another series. Therefore, obviously no one else was able to give Jason a specific spot in the DCU, because no one else has been given the chance to write him on a regular basis. Lobdell's been given plenty of time and it's clearly not working in the long run, hence the series sales plummetting

    Did you forgot Countdown? Jason was a lead there and the whole point of it was giving him a place on the DCU. However, just like all the other attempts, editorial couldn't choose a definite route for his character to go and thus nearly every writer gave him their own interpretation in the hopes it would stick.

    Right, I suppose that's why people often cite it as one of the few important stories actually featuring Jason Todd, hold it at the standard to a good Red Hood story, with many of his appearances afterwards being considered subpar, and why it got a film adaptation. Because people just don't like it lol because that's how things usually go right?

    What are you talking about? Everything about his actions in Under the Hood is explained in Lost Days.

    By definition, mediocre and pointless are two completely different things lol so no they're not the same at all.

    Yes, but expecting a character to go through a major change after one story? One in which nothing conclusive happened that would cause him to change?That's not good development at all. That's rushed and sloppy.

    Red Hood and Arsenal is trash.

    And Winick was right to plan that for Jason, because we've seen little evidence that anyone else can add anything of real, significant substance to the character in terms of storytelling. And Jason always mattered in terms of being the second Robin, just as Tim Drake matters for being the third and Damian the fourth. Regardless of anything else that happens with the characters their positions in the mythos are forever secured due to those facts. So again, Lobdell didn't do anything special. He changed the direction Jason was going in with his series, but saying he's responsible for Jason having a place in the mythos or even for the popularity of the character altogether? That's simply false. There are people that like Jason from Lobdell, from Winick, from the comics, from the film, from the game, etc.

    "if you look at the work make for the fandom and the mentions of Jason is always RHATO's version"

    Your English is breaking up here so i'm not 100% on what you're trying to say. If you're saying that Jason's appearances and mentions in other media are based on Lobdell's version then no, they most certainly aren't. Winick's Jason got a film. Jason in YJ was based off Death in the Family in that he was the second Robin and died. Brave in the Bold is the same thing, as is Teen Titans. Arkham Knight in the Arkham games is then also based on Winick's version. Most that's happened for Lobdell, to my knowledge, is an action figure being released.

    Countdown wasn't a permanent series, nor a Jason Todd series, so it's not the same thing as Red Hood and the Outlaws, just like it's not the same thing as Batman. Countdown had Jason as a featuring character as part of one story among many, many, many other stories.

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    SpentShrimp

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    As much as I like what Lobdell established with Jason, we need a new writer. Lobdell has hit a wall with this character. He's got a lot going on in his personal life, and just needs some time a way to sort things out. He writes good character moments, but development has stalled for me, and the current stories aren't very good at all. Jason's been pretty cool in B&R Eternal and fun in Robin War so far. I like his interactions with Tim.

    What I would like is for him to do something that gets the Bat Fam pissed at him (except for Tim) and then go off on his own. Go solo with mini events contained to his story where he meets up with Tim, Roy, or Kori. I would write Jason to where he's not like the Punisher, but more like Spike Speigal from Cowboy Bebop. He isn't above killing, but create a bloodbath every chance he gets.

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    Aahz

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    What I would like is for him to do something that gets the Bat Fam pissed at him (except for Tim) and then go off on his own. Go solo with mini events contained to his story where he meets up with Tim, Roy, or Kori. I would write Jason to where he's not like the Punisher, but more like Spike Speigal from Cowboy Bebop. He isn't above killing, but create a bloodbath every chance he gets.

    What ever they do, they shouldn't bring Kori into it. She doesn't really mix well with Batfamily characters. In stories that are centred arround the Batfamily characters she feels out of place and in her space stories the Batfamily members are out of place (imo not even Wolfman made it really work in his new Teen Titans run).

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    daredevil21134

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    @nathaniel_christopher: Agreed on everything you said but I loved Lost Days.It had flaws but I thought it was very enjoyable .I would consider only that to be the only solo Winick wrote on Jason.Under the Red Hood was still very much a Batman story so I don't count that.Winick should have been given a chance to write the character in a solo ages ago.Right ow I'd take Peter Tomasi.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    @nathaniel_christopher: Agreed on everything you said but I loved Lost Days.It had flaws but I thought it was very enjoyable .I would consider only that to be the only solo Winick wrote on Jason.Under the Red Hood was still very much a Batman story so I don't count that.Winick should have been given a chance to write the character in a solo ages ago.Right ow I'd take Peter Tomasi.

    Lost Days certainly isn't the worst comic, or even the worst appearance for Jason Todd in my opinion, that i've ever read. It features Jason going to various people, training under them, and then utilizing those skills. I LOVE to see that in my Bat-Universe stories. Whether it's Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, etc. I always like seeing where they trained to get their skills. At the same time, it's based completely around Jason, so you get an inside look into what he's thinking as all of this is going on, which can be used to expand on the events of Under the Hood. This is a nice contrast, because Under the Hood is naturally a typical Batman story, where we're inside Bruce's head instead. Lost Days gives you a closer look at Jason. For me though, it's just that the stories being told themselves weren't that great. I was interested, because of the training aspect which I again like a lot. But beyond that I just wasn't dazzled. So I own the volume, but the chances of me re-reading it on a regular basis are pretty much 0. Let me say for Under the Hood, I was already somewhat questioning Talia kissing Jason and why especially she was even being involved with him in such a way (And by this I mean discovering he was alive and then hiding it from Bruce) but that's expanded on here to full blown sex and then because of some desire for Bruce to love her and stuff while being angry at him. Was just really kind of creeped out by everything concerning her there. (Now that I think about it, Bruce doesn't even ever discover her connection to Jason's return does he?)

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    daredevil21134

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    @nathaniel_christopher: Nope,I think Judd just wanted to make some messed up family drama.It probably won't ever be revisted,the romance part if you could call it that.But I enjoyed it for the reasons you listed.

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    Aahz

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    Imo RH/A needs better stories and better actions. I know that Lobdell wants to do each issue a new story but his new villains need to stay around a little bit longer and do a little bit more, so that they actually feel like a sort of thread. And imo we didn't had a really cool showdown since the Tynions run.

    What I would like to see would be a more personal story arc that includes settings and people from his past (Crime Alley, Gabby, Chris ...).

    And I want still at least one story from his time as Robin, that isn't about him screwing up and has nothing to do with Death in the Family.

    Appart from RH/A they need to something about his role in the Batfamily cross overs. He is defining characteristics seem to be that he died (despite that the last robin who died and came back was Damian), that he allways screws up and likes to drink beer. in the beginning of B&RE it looked as if they wanted to promote him as the fighter of the Robins, but after his fight with Cass they did nothing to really establish this. In the Superman books he was imo better handled in his guest appearances.

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    deactivated-57dd84d2af8d3

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    Kill him. He shouldn't be alive.

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    daredevil21134

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    As much as I like what Lobdell established with Jason, we need a new writer. Lobdell has hit a wall with this character. He's got a lot going on in his personal life, and just needs some time a way to sort things out. He writes good character moments, but development has stalled for me, and the current stories aren't very good at all. Jason's been pretty cool in B&R Eternal and fun in Robin War so far. I like his interactions with Tim.

    What I would like is for him to do something that gets the Bat Fam pissed at him (except for Tim) and then go off on his own. Go solo with mini events contained to his story where he meets up with Tim, Roy, or Kori. I would write Jason to where he's not like the Punisher, but more like Spike Speigal from Cowboy Bebop. He isn't above killing, but create a bloodbath every chance he gets.

    What's wrong with his personal life?

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    daredevil21134

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    @aahz said:

    Imo RH/A needs better stories and better actions. I know that Lobdell wants to do each issue a new story but his new villains need to stay around a little bit longer and do a little bit more, so that they actually feel like a sort of thread. And imo we didn't had a really cool showdown since the Tynions run.

    What I would like to see would be a more personal story arc that includes settings and people from his past (Crime Alley, Gabby, Chris ...).

    And I want still at least one story from his time as Robin, that isn't about him screwing up and has nothing to do with Death in the Family.

    Appart from RH/A they need to something about his role in the Batfamily cross overs. He is defining characteristics seem to be that he died (despite that the last robin who died and came back was Damian), that he allways screws up and likes to drink beer. in the beginning of B&RE it looked as if they wanted to promote him as the fighter of the Robins, but after his fight with Cass they did nothing to really establish this. In the Superman books he was imo better handled in his guest appearances.

    The beer drinking thing is becoming annoying.I swear they're trying to turn him into Stone Cold Steve Austin. What did you think of the Cassandra Cain fight?

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    Aahz

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    What did you think of the Cassandra Cain fight?

    Nice but much to short and you don't really see much of Jasons fighting skill, I really would like to ave something like his fight against Tim in Death of the Family or the final show down from Tynions run more often.

    And I really hope that the next issue of B&RE thats focuses on the Tim and Jason sub plot gets other writers and an other artists.

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    imperialwizard

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    #35  Edited By imperialwizard

    @aahz: i think if Jason killed someone while working with Batman it could easily created friction between them. His fight with tim was a great display of skill, he was blind and showed multiple fighting styles.

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    ScouterV

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    As much as I like what Lobdell established with Jason, we need a new writer. Lobdell has hit a wall with this character. He's got a lot going on in his personal life, and just needs some time a way to sort things out. He writes good character moments, but development has stalled for me, and the current stories aren't very good at all. Jason's been pretty cool in B&R Eternal and fun in Robin War so far. I like his interactions with Tim.

    What I would like is for him to do something that gets the Bat Fam pissed at him (except for Tim) and then go off on his own. Go solo with mini events contained to his story where he meets up with Tim, Roy, or Kori. I would write Jason to where he's not like the Punisher, but more like Spike Speigal from Cowboy Bebop. He isn't above killing, but create a bloodbath every chance he gets.

    I agree with this. Lobdell did some pretty cool stuff, and I'd like to see more of an emphasis on his training with the All-Caste and his ability and knowledge gained from them. I mean he said something about a psychic backdoor into Kori/Roy's mind and he said it almost like a joke, but it's not totally out of the question of things Jason should be able to do. Like it or not, it's established Jason has arcane knowledge so do something with that. That's how you distinguish Jason from Tim and Dick, without constantly reminding us that he was the first Robin to die.

    However, we do need some fresh blood on the character, and the same goes for Arsenal and even Joker's Daughter (albeit, Lobdell working with her, seeing as she's barely been flushed out would be fine. She's almost like a new version of Scarlet to Jason's Red Hood.)

    I say, I think having him work alone and on himself would be interesting. I like Roy and JD, but Jason (and Tim also suffers from this problem) doesn't really have time to be alone and dig deep on who he is (or at least, we haven't been able to see it for ourselves.) To see him develop his own supporting cast in his own neck of the woods. Someone mentioned Hong Kong would be a solid place to put him.

    @aahz said:
    @spentshrimp said:

    What I would like is for him to do something that gets the Bat Fam pissed at him (except for Tim) and then go off on his own. Go solo with mini events contained to his story where he meets up with Tim, Roy, or Kori. I would write Jason to where he's not like the Punisher, but more like Spike Speigal from Cowboy Bebop. He isn't above killing, but create a bloodbath every chance he gets.

    What ever they do, they shouldn't bring Kori into it. She doesn't really mix well with Batfamily characters. In stories that are centred arround the Batfamily characters she feels out of place and in her space stories the Batfamily members are out of place (imo not even Wolfman made it really work in his new Teen Titans run).

    I disagree, at least in regards to Jason. Jason's potentially so much different, when you focus on his magical abilities and training that I think he can hold his own in space with Kori, and the opposite is also true, to me. Like, when Jason showed up in Supergirl. It was quite a similar scenario to seeing Jason with Kori, but Jason was just more badass with a heart of gold here.

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    SpentShrimp

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    @daredevil21134: I follow him on various social media formats, and his dog was having some health problems, but is in doggy rehab now. Having a beloved pet suffer really drains you. :(

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    Aahz

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    @scouterv said:

    @aahz said:
    @spentshrimp said:

    What I would like is for him to do something that gets the Bat Fam pissed at him (except for Tim) and then go off on his own. Go solo with mini events contained to his story where he meets up with Tim, Roy, or Kori. I would write Jason to where he's not like the Punisher, but more like Spike Speigal from Cowboy Bebop. He isn't above killing, but create a bloodbath every chance he gets.

    What ever they do, they shouldn't bring Kori into it. She doesn't really mix well with Batfamily characters. In stories that are centred arround the Batfamily characters she feels out of place and in her space stories the Batfamily members are out of place (imo not even Wolfman made it really work in his new Teen Titans run).

    I disagree, at least in regards to Jason. Jason's potentially so much different, when you focus on his magical abilities and training that I think he can hold his own in space with Kori, and the opposite is also true, to me. Like, when Jason showed up in Supergirl. It was quite a similar scenario to seeing Jason with Kori, but Jason was just more badass with a heart of gold here.

    Just look on the stories we had in RHatO, in the more Jason centric storylines (the tie ins to the Batman events, and the whole leagues of Assassins and Untitled stuff) Kori was completly out of the focus of the main story line, while in the more Kory centric stories (the ones were they were in space) Jason and Roy didn't had much to contribute (and it was similar with Dick and Kori in the New Teen Titans).

    Supergirl (while powerfull) is more down to earth than Kori, she looks like a human, she acts human, has a civilian identity, has a human city to defend and therefore more earth based stories. Kori's centric stories are usually placed somewere in space. And when Jason showed up in super girl he was on venom on top of having magic swords, and was therefore much more powerful than usual.

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    ScouterV

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    @aahz: While I do agree, In all fairness, Roy also didn't have much to offer Jason's story either, but did with Kori. I think, if a writer took the time, they could balance Kori with a character like Jason.

    And to be fair, aside from Venom, Jason was as powerful and skilled as he needed to be. The swords should be standard, they're just misused.

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    Wodaman01

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    Simple

    Step 1. Don't give him too much tech, this is a big problem with many comics. Too much tech drowns out the characters skill

    Step 1.5. I recommend giving him, the talon dagger. Two Katanas. Two pistols, batarangs, a bit of tech

    Step 2. Make him try to be friendly with the bat family but with a more vengeful persona, recently I have found that they have basically made him as jokey as nightwing, I like it when he is jokey but not as jokey as Grayson.

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    daredevil21134

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    @wodaman01: I like his dark sense of humor.He always came across as a bit less wity than Dick so I get you.

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    Aahz

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    @scouterv said:

    @aahz: While I do agree, In all fairness, Roy also didn't have much to offer Jason's story either, but did with Kori. I think, if a writer took the time, they could balance Kori with a character like Jason.

    There were hardly any really Roy centric stories sofar, but as Batman and Green Arrow Characters, belong at least in the same genre. Kori doesn't really work as Batman/Arrow style crime fighter (especially if she still isn't really used to human culture) and Jason and Roy don't belong on other planets.

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    ScouterV

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    @aahz said:
    @scouterv said:

    @aahz: While I do agree, In all fairness, Roy also didn't have much to offer Jason's story either, but did with Kori. I think, if a writer took the time, they could balance Kori with a character like Jason.

    There were hardly any really Roy centric stories sofar, but as Batman and Green Arrow Characters, belong at least in the same genre. Kori doesn't really work as Batman/Arrow style crime fighter (especially if she still isn't really used to human culture) and Jason and Roy don't belong on other planets.

    Which I think points more to a problem with the writing as opposed the characters not meshing. Jason and Roy should be a dynamic duo, but there isn't much the two bring to each other story besides just being there as a friend. They may belong to the same genre, but I don't think that automatically makes them fit which was proven in several Outlaws stories.

    While I'll agree that Kori doesn't work as a detective, I think there is room for her in stories that the Outlaws have, such as when Crux was introduced or other aliens came to Earth. Kori was right there and played a pivotal role, but that's not to say Arsenal and Red Hood also didn't bring stuff to the table. I mean, Jason is a student of the mystical All-Caste, he's got the All-Blades. He's been able to challenge a primordial evil with his combination of mystic capabilities and firepower. Arsenal is a genius, able to make nanobots and Arrows that even Oliver doesn't have access to. Not to mention being a fighter himself. Why can't they fight on other planets? It's not like every race in the galaxy is super advanced or as powerful as Tamaranians or Kryptonians.

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    Nathaniel_Christopher

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    You know seperating each "son" of Batman into different areas really is something that writers need to work harder at in general. As has been pointed out, Jason's got some mystical stuff going on now so that should naturally be played up. Have him take on a few low tier warlocks or maybe operate as a John Constantine type character. Street level, but with knowledge about various magical objects and forces. I'd think that the most important thing in this scenario would be to make sure that you don't go from low level to having Jason routinely chat with beings on the level of The Spectre just because it looks cool. It's very important that characters always be unique in their own ways, so that no one ever asks "Why do we need a solo for X-Character when we already have Y-Character's solo with the same thing going on?" Batman himself, who at the end of the day all the Robins and Batgirls naturally take cues from, has tangled with the mystical on occassion and it's been done well. No reason you can't do something similar for Jason and even make it a focus of his series (While then perhaps seperating his "brothers" into their own areas, such as spywork for Dick, team-based adventures for Tim with the Teen Titans, etc.). Magic can be written in a way to be extremely fantastic and out of this world or dark, grim, and bloody. Go the latter route for Jason, while of course never straying too far from his origin as a Robin operating in the Batverse, and I think it could work.

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