Trading Views: Iron Man - Demon In A Bottle

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#1 Posted by Aspenite (935 posts) - - Show Bio

I really like the old stories of the Marvel characters. And here you see that nobody is perfect. Iconic!

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#2 Posted by Freddy.Mercurial (152 posts) - - Show Bio

BURY IT??????  Babs, u've officially lost your laminated Avengers card...  :(

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#3 Posted by Bruce Vain (1833 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm very disappointed to hear you say bury it , Babs. But it's cool lol 
I feel the same way as you do Tony towards the book. :-)

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#4 Posted by xerox_kitty (17342 posts) - - Show Bio

I love comics from the late 70's/early 80's.  The traditional within-the-panel style is easily abandoned by artists who don't know how to tell a story.  Also, the political concerns of the time seem so far away from us now that it's like a history lesson.  But more than anything... I love the fashion!  The flared collars, cuffs & trousers along with the big hair!  I just really love it! 
I've never been a big Iron Man fan, but I do love the old alcoholic story.  Mind you, it's easier to poke fun at it than take it seriously.  But it's still a landmark in Iron Man's life.

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#5 Posted by Nova`Prime` (4172 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd have to agree with GMan, if you are an Iron Man fan (heck if you're a comic fan) you should buy this trade. It may be dated and cheesy, but its comic history.

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#6 Posted by sora_thekey (8812 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked the Romita Jr. was better there! 
I mean I don't like Romita's art now... for some reason it bugs me a lot! 
If you wouldn't have told me that was Romita's art I wouldn't have noticed... So I know Tony said Buy it and Babs said Bury it, but can somebody let me borrow it?
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#7 Posted by Phantom Patriot (29 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think I'll buy it right away, but I think its important to read it, out of respect for the authors and since Iron man's a critical character in Marvel's U.

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#8 Posted by lostlantern13 (1033 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nova`Prime` said:
"I'd have to agree with GMan, if you are an Iron Man fan (heck if you're a comic fan) you should buy this trade. It may be dated and cheesy, but its comic history."

Completely agree.
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#9 Posted by MysterioMaximus (951 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh it! It's classic stuff.
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#10 Posted by Theansweris42 (44 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really fair calling it cliche.  
I mean you can't really call Superman cliche because he was one of the first, and while this isn't a 1940's comic it was still in the beginning of the silver age, and comics like this helped defined the silver age. 

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#11 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3642 posts) - - Show Bio

"Chinese Gorilla"?? Aren't gorillas primarily from Africa? I think Namor would probably need money. What would he pay with, clams? I'm not sure what the exchange rate is with the Atlantian currency.
There is a lot of comparisons made with modern comics.
Though, I do think Babs needs to copyright that term, "Fashion Recycles".

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#12 Edited by Branagin77 (77 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my god were talking 1979 over 30 years ago.. Can I get a nooo Duh!!
JR JR is the bomb!!! He deserves the Respect just for the fact he's put in the hours...He's what you call a PRO! 

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#13 Posted by PsychoPanda (206 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel sorry for people who can't appreciate the styles of the earlier artists. It's like saying "Michelangelo was an okay painter", just because he was decades before Warhol . You really have to know the history of any medium to understand it completely and make appropriate judgments. I know that it took me awhile to appreciate the artists before my generation (Kirby, Kane, Eisner, etc.). Nowadays I find it sad that some modern artists lean so heavily on photoshop techniques. I think those artists are really missing the point of what "comic art" really is. Layton and Romita Jr's art on this run, was actually some of the better art being produced this time. Along with Miller, Byrne, Perez, etc., they were the top of the heap of their time, not just the 'average artist'.
I do have to commend both reviewers for honestly expressing their feelings about this trade. It seemed like Babs knew her statement was going to be somewhat unpopular, but had the guts to say it anyways. (if you read this, try checking out some original art of early artists some time...the Jack Kirby Collector is a pretty good magazine to start with) 
Oh, and as   sora_thekey noted...the art doesn't look much like Romita Jr's. There a couple of reasons for this; Romita Jr was somewhat new at this time and still developing his style. Also Bob Layton inked most of these stories and  was very heavy handed, obliterating the pencils he inked over to create the look he wanted for the comic.

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#14 Posted by TheSavageAssasin (2688 posts) - - Show Bio

Babs!!!You crazy!!!I agree with Tony.It's a classic and very important to Tony Stark's story!!I also think the art is awesome!

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#15 Posted by chalkshark (1271 posts) - - Show Bio

How do you bury a story that is, essentially, the blue print for the Iron Man film franchise? The Micheline/Romita Jr./Layton run on Iron Man is, arguably, the most relevant story told with the character since his introduction in  Tales of  Suspense. I disagree that the art looks less dynamic than the work seen in modern comics. Even at that early a stage in his career, Romita Jr. was a strong storyteller who maintained a consistent level in his work & could also meet a monthly deadline..... something virtually all of today's "hot" artists are incapable of doing.  This story was a high point in the evolution of the character, & is constantly referenced by everyone who's worked on Iron Man  since.

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#16 Posted by gmanfromheck (42518 posts) - - Show Bio

You have to admit it comes across as cheesy when read today. 
There was actually a little more to our conversation that we'll upload in the coming week.

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#17 Posted by OhTru (1603 posts) - - Show Bio

Buy it!

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#18 Posted by No_Name_ (16193 posts) - - Show Bio

I knew most/all of you would disagree with me, but I really felt that while the concept for establishing Iron Man as an imperfect character was awesome, the book is truly dated and was (at least for me) a hard read. I really think that I didn't learn anything I did not already know about the character in this book, and I would rather spend my time reading a different graphic novel. Anyway, hope no one if offended, it is after all an opinion. Thanks for watching the review!

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#19 Posted by MichaeltheFly (6651 posts) - - Show Bio

Can't wait to see what the next Trading Views will be about.

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#20 Posted by the_fallen11 (642 posts) - - Show Bio

 Chinese Gorilla huh?

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#21 Posted by Luthorcrow (178 posts) - - Show Bio

Was the writing cheesy? By today's standards sure but again it's not fair to view out of the context. This is pre Alan Moore, Howard Chaykin, Neil Gaiman , Frank Miller and all the other alt comic writers of the 80s that redefined quality writing and themes in comic books.  Let's be fair the only writer pre 1980 that was really good was Denny O'Neil.
I think it is fair to criticise books that come after say Watchman, etc for cheesy writing but everything before 1980 really has to be read in context.
What I do completely disagree with the review is the art John Romita Jr.  I have always felt that he took the style of his father's generation but did it better.  The level of detail and clean lines in his work is incredible. I think the amazing thing about him as an artist as he always been created amazing art even as his style has changed radically.  I honestly don't think he has ever been given the proper due.

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#22 Posted by Cassio411 (72 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it is awesome that trades are being reviewed as part of what you guys provide in the website. On the hopes of seeing more trades and more recent ones. Keep it up!

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#23 Edited by Omega Ray Jay (8418 posts) - - Show Bio

Only Iron Man trade I have is Doomquest and im loving that. Had been pondering getting this, always wanted to find out about the story line been as well known as it is.

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#24 Posted by FLStyle (378 posts) - - Show Bio

Part of me likes a good story, part of like wants a good amount of quality in the drawings. I'd rent it.

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#25 Posted by Kamen Rider Kajiki (1218 posts) - - Show Bio

Do Spiderman: Kraven`s Last Hunt next please :) (because i just bought it that`s why lol)

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#26 Posted by Savonti (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Pearls before swine.

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#27 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3642 posts) - - Show Bio
I think someone has some issues if they took any great offense to you stating your opinion.
I'm unsure if it is all a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It just strikes me as a bit of overstating the obvious to call the book "dated". A lot of comics couldn't compare when stacking them up to a modern equivalent.
This book has something rather unique about it. This showed the decent of a hero to a chemical dependency issue. In the past, this issue always fell the to sidekick. This was showing the hero falling and how it effected those around him. If this had gone over poorly. It could of killed the book.
This was quite the gamble for the era. This wasn't something that he just 'recovered' from. Alcoholism is something that looms over Tony's head to this very day. He even made mention of it as he sat before the body of Steve Rogers after Civil War.
I remember some of the critiques you've made about more modern comics include having heroes suffering from some tragic event that is resolved or just dropped altogether. Never to be mentioned again.
Yes, the clothes were rather silly, but they were the fashions of the time. I'm one of the people who still thinks Jubilee needs to lose the yellow slicker and neon colors. She looks like a late 80s mall rat.
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#28 Posted by waruikumo (364 posts) - - Show Bio
agreed, alot of the older stuff is dated, but I can't really put my finger on what makes it "dated".  It's just the art, but something about the style of narrative in the 60's and 70's.   
I dunno, some of the stuff from the era IMO was great, Jim Starlin's Death of Captain Marvel trade is one of my favorite stories.  And he's one of the only characters to stay dead largely.  But I had a really hard time reading the first 10 issues of Amazing Spiderman.
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#29 Posted by chalkshark (1271 posts) - - Show Bio
@Luthorcrow:  I feel you're being a tad dismissive of the comic's writer's of the 1970's. Yes, Denny O'Neil crafted some fine stories, but so did Steve Gerber.... & Jim Starlin.... & Chris Claremont.... & Doug Moench. Comics may have taken on a new relevance in the 1980's thanks to the works of Moore & MIller, but I'd argue that the 70's also boasted it's fair share of revolutionary writers who pushed the envelope of the genre where they could, while crafting some of the most memorable stories put to paper. 
I do agree with you 100%, though, regarding Romita, Jr. He's a great storyteller, who has consistently refined his illustrative skills into something rather unique, &, most importantly, he keeps a deadline. You never have to wait more than the requisite 30 days for the next installment of a Romita, Jr. drawn book. He always delivers on time. In this day & age of artists delaying books for months between every issue, that fact  alone should be lauded.
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#30 Posted by TylerLux (29 posts) - - Show Bio
@Babs: What? This was an amazing book and showed that even know we all have issues and might be functioning alcoholics lol like myself we can still serve a purpose. 
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#31 Posted by iloverobots (466 posts) - - Show Bio
@waruikumo said:
" @Babs:   agreed, alot of the older stuff is dated, but I can't really put my finger on what makes it "dated".  It's just the art, but something about the style of narrative in the 60's and 70's.  "
I re-read Death of Superman not too long ago and I think what makes it somehow dated is that the characters / narration are constantly stating the most obvious stuff, or over-explaining things. It's always like "Oh, I'm gonna use my X-Ray vision to see through this wall and catch of glimpse of the thieves!". It doesn't make the books inferior or anything, it's just... different.
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#32 Posted by No_Name_ (16193 posts) - - Show Bio
@TylerLux said:
" @Babs: What? This was an amazing book and showed that even know we all have issues and might be functioning alcoholics lol like myself we can still serve a purpose.  "
You think it's an amazing book because look at your avatar.
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#33 Posted by Aerik (78 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm okay with burying it. It's got some good cheese in there. When Tony really lost it and was living on the streets makes for better reading.

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#34 Posted by doordoor123 (3817 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah sure its a good comic. I love the story, but its so out dated. Especially the art.
I would read it  maybe once ever 12 years.
So i say buy it, bury it for 12 years, read it again, bury it for 12 years and then throw it away. LOL

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#35 Posted by EganTheVile1 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio

It's so easy to write Iron Man off as a D-Bag, but as an alcoholic myself events in ones life often lead to booze becoming a crutch, and it is hard to stop using that crutch, Iron Man is probably the most human character in comics in the sense he has major faults, and very human problems, this was probably one of the best stories of the character, and it is a must read.
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#36 Posted by Mbecks14 (2114 posts) - - Show Bio
@Babs said:
" @TylerLux said:
" @Babs: What? This was an amazing book and showed that even know we all have issues and might be functioning alcoholics lol like myself we can still serve a purpose.  "
You think it's an amazing book because look at your avatar. "
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#37 Edited by Emerald Warrior (186 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with Babs, just because it's a "classic" doesn't mean it's good. Iron Man fan's may love it, but to anyone else it's definitely better left 6 feet under, IMO.

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#38 Posted by blueskirt (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with Babs. The story has ton of potential, the repulsor misfire, Justin's plot, the SHIELD's take over, Jarvis' resignation, Stark's breakdown, fall and rise from alcoholism... but the whole thing get ruined with the cheesy dialogues, the "I'm telling what I'm doing" and the constant need for old comics to focus so much on the fight with the villains of the month instead of the things that made this story arc memorable in the first place. 

Personally I hope one day Marvel will do a retelling of this story arc, like they did with Iron Man: Enter The Mandarin, the same plot, except better told and putting a bigger focus on the important, the memorable events in this book.

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#39 Posted by cbishop (12934 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this is story is great, but didn't like that it came out in the pricey hardcover.  I almost think this should be collected with Armor Wars, which came directly after Demon in a Bottle (if I recall correctly, at 3am... 3AM?!), because having just pulled himself out of the bottle made his battle in Armor Wars even more important (and one of Stane's final gestures even more uncool). 
As is, I'd say "borrow it," if you just want to know how hard Tony really had to fight his alcoholism.  If it was collected with Armor Wars (which it's currently not) I'd say definitely "buy it," but I'd say that about Armor Wars as is, so it's not really fair.  I've put off buying this trade, because I read the original issues, so I can't fairly say "buy it," but I do think it should be read by Iron Man fans.

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#40 Posted by avengpymhawk (1032 posts) - - Show Bio

Bury it.....My ears must decieve me.
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#41 Posted by fedspaz (361 posts) - - Show Bio

G-man says corny and cheesy about the nostalgia, but I love the books from that time frame.  Like he says, it's from the time I started to read them... late 70's thru the 80's.  It's a completely different style and art... but it really appeals to me.  If I find this one somewhere, I'll pick it up.

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#42 Posted by claud (28 posts) - - Show Bio

BURRY BABS. jeezzzz 
all she cares about is that namor looks bad in comic, like giant white chinese gorilla. 
She's young and didn't read comicbooks from 70's or 80' so she can't understand the main thing about them, charm and a little bit of magic. It is completely different style but it doesnt mean that they're cheesy!!  For example golden age comics or silver age are great. Its a piece of art and culture dammit. 
And last thing... even Iron Man can have problems with alkohol, come on.. he's a human too.

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