Iron Man vs Mid-Tiers

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#51 Posted by just_sayin (3885 posts) - - Show Bio

@just_sayin: You tried to derail this thread with irrelevant scans of Hank Pym fighting Stark. I provided the full context and debunked all of your claims. If I responded to you point by point again I'd only be repeating myself. If anyone stumbles across our debate here they can see the full context laid out before them and your out of context arguments/scans being dismantled and decide for themselves if Iron Man actually "lost". Good day.

Derailed the thread? Dude, I'm one of the few who argeed with you. And yes, you are right, others can read the thread and decide for themselves. Que Dios te bendiga.

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#52 Posted by Gilneas (612 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a good thread, lots of work put into it, here are some things to look forward to

A new Hulkbuster suit from IM that looks almost exactly like the one from the movies. I dunno if IM already showed a suit like this somewhere else

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and a new orbital cannon named Helios

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#53 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilneas: Is that Black Panther on top of Hulk? Where did you get those scans?

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#54 Posted by Gilneas (612 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Yea it's BP. They are preview art for Immortal Hulk #7.

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#55 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: Actually, that Super Adaptoid had the combined powers of Iron Man, Vision, Captain America, Beast, Scarlet Witch, Captain Mar'Vell, and the Thing himself. To me, that seems a bit much, but if you want to go that route I can break it down for you. The only reason that the Super Adaptoid ultimately lost to Thing is because of the Super Adaptoid's phase strategy backfiring. Here is the full fight:

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Scan 1: Thing grunts out in pain from the Super Adaptoid's repulsors and swears that they were basically the same as Tony's; Scan 2: Proof that Captain Mar'vell's powers were being used by the Adaptoid. Hits Thing with an energy beam; Scan 3: Proof that the Adaptoid adapted and took Thing's powers. Should be noted that Thing is out of commission from the Photon blast from scan 1 for awhile; Scan 4: Using Iron Man's magnetism, Cap is stomped. Thing gets back in it and punches the Adaptoid away. Thing throws a boulder which the Adaptoid phases through and at that point Thing punches into the Adaptoid's torso which phases his hand right through. This is where things go wrong for the Adaptoid. He solidifies himself which makes Thing stuck there. The pain from this is expected to take Thing out, but instead it backfires; Scan 5: The Adaptoid is now stuck and doesn't expect Thing to fight through the pain, but he does. He then gets many many free desperate punches in while the Adaptoid just stands there and takes it. Thing collapses too.

As you can see, Thing struggled GREATLY against the Super Adaptoid and only managed to ultimately defeat the robot because he was stuck and getting tons of free shots. All this fight proves is that if Thing got Iron Man, Vision, Captain Mar'vell, or even himself, stuck and not fighting back, he could KO them by repeatedly punching them in desperate manner. You have inspired me to create a "Thing" section of this thread since Iron Man has actually done quite well against him as well. Especially that time he casually stomped a Hulk-Buster armor that Thing was struggling greatly against.

I'm talking about the same instance with Doc Green. One thing people tend to forget about Doc Green is the fact that he was so angry at Tony that it's not even relevant mentioning that he was that version of Hulk. His strength/anger levels would have been right up there with savage Hulk. But yeah, he literally used a car armor and then when it was damaged in their first fight (which Hulk didn't one-shot him in), he simply bolstered more pieces onto his broken and damaged car armor (no repairs were shown, only pieces being added):

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He probably didn't have time to repair his armor underneath. Just put armor over it (which isn't the best idea). Now, why was the Hulk able to no-sell his blast and still manage to get one-shotted despite his first fight going completely different? That I couldn't tell you. Like I said, either way you slice it, it's an outlier. He always does WAY better than he did here. Besides, I don't actually think Tony was legitimately prepping to take out the Hulk toward the end. He wanted to show him that he saved Banner's life by tampering with his bomb in the first place.

First of all, that version of She-Hulk seems different than the standard one. She's enraged, gray, and mindless. Based on what we've seen in the most recent Avengers run, with She-Hulk fighting the same Ghost Rider who fought Starbrand and withstanding cold better than Thor, I think it's safe to say that she's been amped. At the very least, she's extremely angry in this form which makes her stronger by default. If you actually read through my thread, you would have seen just how impressive an enraged and out of control She-Hulk really is. She was stalemating Hulk and making him bleed, she was ripping Vision apart, bloodying Jack of Hearts, no-selling enchanted sword strikes from Lionheart (Captain Britain level mid tier), etc. Also, why make fun of She-Hulk or Thordis when this happened to Ms. Marvel?

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Magneto literally guides She-Hulk's hand into Carol's face and KO's her.

To be fair, Carol was standing still and probably couldn't brace herself and definitely couldn't fight back. Let's take a look at what happens when they fight under normal circumstances:

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Well, would you look at that? Carol can't seem to KO her either. In fact, She-Hulk seems completely fine and unphased by Carol's attacks. But yeah, let's keep making fun of how Thordis struggled against an amped version of this character.

Thor can't hold back his durability. What about all those times that Ulik punched Thor and it hurt him? Hell, Ulik's handbook entry claims he can strike with the same force of magnitude 6 to 8 Earthquakes and he's knocked over a mountain with a punch. He also survived and contributed to creating this explosion:

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....yet Iron Man managed to one-shot an AMPED version of Ulik. Did I forget to mention that Ulik was amped in that storyline that Tony repeatedly one-shotted him? Silly me.

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#56 Posted by boogie123 (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Right, because tanking a multi mountain level attack is so high tier eh?
guess Naruto is considered impressive to high tiers in marvel now ACCORDING to you.

Ulik doesn't even have any planetary feats, so why is one-shotting him impressive?

Hurting someone doesn't debunk them holding back. Can you show where Thor was actually going all out against Ulik? Because i don't recall ANY instance. lol funnny how Iron Man had Thor help him against an amped Ulik eh?

You keep posting older occurances of a weaker carol ignoring the scans I posted about her adaptability, and how she gets stronger overtime. you know she also destroyed a meteor, and lifted a dead celestial recently right?


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#57 Edited by seastone98 (4901 posts) - - Show Bio

I have always felt dat iron man was a low top tier in da same league as aquaman wonderman Hercules ect

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#58 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: Ugh... The nitpicking. Alright, fine. How do these feats make you feel?

I guess Mangog was holding back here too?

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The idea that an established Thor villain has no durability because the hero he fights always holds back against him is grasping at straws to say the least. Why doesn't Thor one-shot him then? Even if he's only trying to KO him, he's still failing and struggling to do so. If you want, I can post scans of Eric Masterson as Thor fighting Ulik? As far as I know, that guy doesn't have the same types of morals that Thor Odinson does.

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So Thor holds his durability back when Ulik hurts him? Makes sense. Admittedly, Ulik isn't a high tier, but a guy that can hurt Thor hitting Iron Man to no avail does have a lot to say about Tony's durability.

EXCUSE after EXCUSE! Every scan I post of Carol is irrelevant because they are old and she gets stronger and stronger every second due to her absorbing ambient energy around her! She's constantly upgrading unlike everybody else in the Marvel universe! Even the most recent issue of Carol isn't recent enough because she has upgraded even since then due to her ambient energy absorption! That's probably why she still gets one-shotted by Hulk and Thanos, struggles against Gamora, War Machine, and Hercules despite her CONSTANT upgrades that supposedly put her above Iron Man who regularly one-shots mid tiers that she struggles against.

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#59 Posted by Gilneas (612 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Doc Greens fight with Tony is on a whole other level there, you can't really even call him Doc Green since he only later become that once Gerry Duggan took over, but that fight happened while Waid and IM current writer at the time were writing it. I remember distinctly Waid saying how angry Hulk was at Tony there, that if his anger at the end of Planet Hulk was 10, his anger here with Tony is 11. I remember it because it pissed me off lol, since it cheapens Planet Hulk and is honestly an insult that Waid would think Hulk would be angrier at Tony then he would at his wife and child dying.

As for why Hulk no sold and one-shot that second suit, it's rather simple. The longer the fight goes on the angrier and stronger Hulk gets, when he engaged Tony in his first suit he already damaged it just from the first shot, when Tony got into his second suit this was at the very end of their fight where Hulk was just at the height of his anger while Tony was running out of options.

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#60 Posted by boogie123 (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@seastone98: Masterson isn't as powerful as Thor. That's been confirmed too many times.

You're lowballing Thor yourself, if someone that's not even high tier themselves can hurt someone whos supposedly "high tier' according to you like Thor, why would Iron Man taking shots from thor be impressive? you're lowballing your own thread and you don't even realize it

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#61 Posted by GucciBrick (582 posts) - - Show Bio

So Thor holds his durability back when Ulik hurts him? Makes sense. Admittedly, Ulik isn't a high tier, but a guy that can hurt Thor hitting Iron Man to no avail does have a lot to say about Tony's durability.

What kind of nonsense is this? so I guess since celestials are villains and they dont hold back, and they hit thor once and didnt kill him, thor is >>> galaxy?

The burden of proof is on you to prove that Ulik was hitting ironman with the same force, or greater force than he hit thor with.

You also conveniently left out context. Ulik was only a thor villain maybe 50 years ago, after that time he is weaksauce and is weaker than the thing or colossus.

You also left out the fact ulik only 'hurt' thor when he used his uru knuckles to do so. He never hit ironman or anyone else with those same uru weapons.

Lastly, that was an amped ulik who went up against thor. the version of ulik ironman fought was a weakened ulik without any additional amplifications.

i thought this thread is supposed to be about ironman vs the mid tiers, but you are genuinely trying to convince people that ironman is not only close to the likes of thor or superman in durability, but that he actually is "more durable" than the likes of thor or the silver surfer?

Ulik doesnt even have the prestige/level of power he had in the 60 year old scans you provided. Lol now you're trying to argue ironman can "one shot" someone who can tank hits from mangog? Comon man... namor one shotted the extremis ironman suit but you are trying to convince people that feat was "pis" or inconsistent yet you are now saying ironman is more durable than thor and strikes as hard as mangog yet these feats have context like ulik being a much weaker version in his ironman fight and the fact that even if ulik wasnt weakened these would be inconsistent/high end feats no different than when thor or superman survive universal destruction

and no ironman is not above carol i mean she literally defeated him already i mean carol has been getting amped consistently for a long time now and she is probably going to be surfer thor level especially after her film and the other avengers film

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#62 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: Honestly, I made a mistake including Ulik with the other high tiers and then when you were skeptical about how powerful he was I just wanted to prove you wrong, but I simply shouldn't have included him in that list. When Thor gets serious he does manage to stomp Ulik into the ground pretty hard, but at the same time I don't recall him ever one-shotting him. He's always forced to strain or really push himself to defeat him. He could one-shot him if he wanted to, but it'd take a serious attack and even that is impressive considering what we've seen Thor do in a casual manner where he's holding back. It's funny though how, out of all the scans and instances I posted, you are focusing specifically on Ulik and his durability. I mean at this point you're even ignoring the fact that Ulik has harmed Thor and Iron Man tanked a hit from him.

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#63 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@guccibrick: Just get out of this thread. You literally have no scans, handbook entries, or any evidence at all to back up any claims you make. It's painfully obvious that you are whoisthebest. Just stop trolling and find a different hobby.

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#64 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilneas: Wow that's crazy. I had no idea that Waid considered Hulk even ANGRIER than during World War Hulk. Do you have a screenshot of him typing that or an interview of him saying it? But yeah, I've always came to the conclusion that Tony's second armor in their rematch was crap.

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#65 Posted by GucciBrick (582 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: you're saying we need to show you scans proving that thor is more durable than the likes of ironman?

okay buddy... okay.

theres no trolling i just wanted to point out some inconsistencies/false claims you were spreading to others.

the person making the claim needs to provide proof especially for an outrageous claim like you made, i mean you claimed ironman has thor level durability and can "one shot" AMPED versions of someone who mangog supposedly cant even hurt.

none of the things i claimed require any scans to prove, and its also ironic that your argument is completely baseless and wrong despite posting a hundred unrelated/out of context scans yet i didnt need any scans for mine and it is at least correct.

i am not the one making outrageous claims here all im saying is mangog hits much harder than ironman and the likes of thor and silver surfer are much more durable than ironman.

then i brought up the fact ulik is no longer a thor villain really, he is nowhere near what he was doing 50 years ago and he never hurt thor level opponents unless he had uru knuckles and weaponry which he never hit anyone else with.

ms marvel is a lot stronger than you are giving credit for here, i mean in the mcu she is going to be above hulk and thor, and even in comics she is definitely comparable to them. namor is also close to hulks strength and toughness physically at least fully hydrated, except hes much faster too. so the fact they beat ironman is consistent, they are not some super weak characters where it would be illogical/inconsistent for that to happen

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#66 Edited by boogie123 (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: What other instances did I ignore that's supposedly "high tier"?

Loki's been one-shotted by a Thor without Mjolnir, infact he's a jobber most of the time. I can post scans if you want

Indestructible Hulk already teared apart Tony's armor, I can post scans for that too IF YOU want

What I'm looking for is where Iron Man is actually facing a high tier foe who's not fully holding back and using nearly all his force to beat up on Iron Man, and withstanding it. or Iron Man actually one-shotting someone on Thor level. WWH already confirmed that Hulk have always held back, so that's not really an indication.

Iron Man can't even destroy a planet outright, i've yet to see him doing so

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#67 Posted by GucciBrick (582 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: actually ironman performed well against world war hulk, he hurt him but only using bladed weapons which hulk is weak to, and he withstood some hits

he wasnt obviously on par with world war hulk but he performed well. the extra mass/bulk on the suit allowed him to withstand an additional amount of damage before going down ultimately

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#68 Edited by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: First of all, I never claimed anything that you are saying right now. Not a single thing. I never said that Iron Man one-shotted people on Thor's level. Please screenshot or quote me saying anything even close to that. At best, I said he gives Thor problems. Does that make him Thor level? NO. I also never claimed that Iron Man had "high tier" showings, like wtf? Again, quote me on that. I said he HOLDS HIS OWN against high tiers and I never even said that he is remotely successful. He does FAR better than Carol does against them and not only has that been my point all along, but that's been proven time and time again despite you ignoring all the scans I posted. I also never said he could destroy a planet or was even remotely close to planetary levels. Again, go ahead and quote me saying that.

Second of all, you asked to see Iron Man holding his own against high tiers, but then COMPLETELY ignore the instances where Iron Man/War Machine hurts them. Like literally you have absolutely no counter for that at all whatsoever. You can't hold back durability, so your nitpicking argument doesn't work there. Red Hulk, Savage Hulk, Thor, Count Nefaria, and Hercules all grunted or screamed in pain from Iron Man/War Machine's attacks. Instead of focusing on that, you want to focus on something easier like durability. It's easy to say, "herrr derr dey all holding back", so I can see why you'd ignore the offensive output part of the debate.

Third of all, I already SHOWED you instances of high tiers hitting Iron Man whilst mind-controlled. What is your counter to that? I'm still waiting for it. Why would a mind-controlled Thor or Hulk "hold back" when they literally have no control of their mind or body? Please enlighten me. Also, villains have no morals. There's absolutely no reason for them to hold back. Especially when they are trying to kill the hero in their way. So yeah, Count Nefaria, Loki, and Annihilus were NOT holding back.

Fourth of all, in the story where Iron Man's shields tanked Loki's energy projection from his enchanted hammer, punched him, and then withstood two more hits from him, the writer had him operating at these levels:

Not one-shotted by a relentless beating by Thor and energy projection from his enchanted hammer that did this to Thor and the mountain range:

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So yeah, that's the Loki that Iron Man held his own against.

You also ignored the instance with Annihilus and Count Nefaria. The Annihilus response was incredibly lazy. "herr derr he onley fight Jane Thor den he suck". Yeah, the character that fought evenly with Unworthy Thor, arm-wrestled Hercules, tanked hits from the Destroyer armor, had an extended fight with War Thor (who withstood a merciless beating from Mangog), and fought Immortal Hulk is only She-Hulk level. We'll go with that. That's not even to mention Annihilus who has the strength to beat the shit out of Captain Mar'Vell who has traded blows with Thanos...

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#69 Edited by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: Also, ignore that GucciBrick guy. He's an alt of a banned user named @whoisthebest that had a mental breakdown and used to send vile and disturbing private messages to as many people as he could tag. He'd call people rapists, killers, thieves, criminals, and then go on about how they needed to be punished via being boiled alive, skinned, shot, stabbed, etc. The guy has no credibility and is only trying to derail and troll threads of individuals who disagreed with him in the past. He is the least objective user imaginable. He used to claim that Hulk was even or extremely close to Thor in power levels, but then the Hulk fans on this site called out his 2nd grade logic and then he completely flip flopped his stance and now even World Breaker Hulk is below Hercules in his eyes.

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#70 Posted by Gilneas (612 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilneas: Wow that's crazy. I had no idea that Waid considered Hulk even ANGRIER than during World War Hulk. Do you have a screenshot of him typing that or an interview of him saying it? But yeah, I've always came to the conclusion that Tony's second armor in their rematch was crap.

Sure thing.

https://www.newsarama.com/21299-original-sin-insider-waid-gillen-on-hulk-vs-iron-man.html

Nrama: Last time Iron Man pissed off the Hulk, it was for being part of the group that shot Hulk into outer space and begat “Planet Hulk” and then World War Hulk. In terms of a “Hulk angry” meter, where would you place it right now leading into this miniseries?

Waid: If Hulk's anger level during “Planet Hulk” was 10, let's call this 11...because Banner ain't exactly pleased, either.

It's kinda dumb to be honest and shows just how little Waid knew what he was talking about. I mean he implies here that Banner WASN'T angry in Planet Hulk...

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#71 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilneas: Thanks a lot man! I can understand why he'd at least compare them though. Him becoming Hulk completely ruined his life. All of the bad things in his life wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for Stark tampering with his bomb, at least, that's what he thinks at the time. But to say it's worse than losing your wife is a bit much.

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#72 Posted by Gilneas (612 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilneas: Thanks a lot man! I can understand why he'd at least compare them though. Him becoming Hulk completely ruined his life. All of the bad things in his life wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for Stark tampering with his bomb, at least, that's what he thinks at the time. But to say it's worse than losing your wife is a bit much.

No problem man. I do understand that he was trying to hype up the event, but i felt a bit disrespectful to think Banner would be more upset at him making him the Hulk than his wife and child dying by what he thought was Tony's(Illuminati) hands at the time. I still think he would be quite a lot more pissed at Tony for that, but i digress.

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#73 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio
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#74 Posted by seastone98 (4901 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: iron man has specific armor 2 deal wit characters like thor (not beat him but give him some trouble) namely thor buster hulk buster ect

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#75 Posted by boogie123 (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: So heroes can't subconsciously hold back now?

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#76 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: Not if they aren't shown to resist the mind control they can't. When Iron Man was mind controlled by Yinsen's son and he killed several people, was he holding back subconsciously there too?

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...despite the fact that he blasted a hole through a guy's chest, put his hand through another, atomized a man's head, broke another's neck, and so on?

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#77 Posted by boogie123 (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Iron Man isn't a good example. You realize he's done some shit that would considered "bad" while he wasn't mind controlled right? I mean you should know this...

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#78 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: I have a feeling that you wouldn't be accepting of any example I give you... Let alone one of Stark. Do you really want me to dig through instances where ANY fictional character killed whilst mind controlled? Believe me, it wouldn't be hard.

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#79 Posted by boogie123 (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Seriously? Even Superman was confirmed to be holding back subconsciously from maxwell by the writers even though he was apparently "bloodlusted". It's really a case by case basis, you can hold back while attempting to kill. want to me elaborate more on this?

and my point is Iron MAN RARELY on occasions legitimately defeats high tiers, "holding against people" isn't really indication that they're superior to someone due to them tremendeously holding back. Guess what..Carol also staggered Sentry


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#80 Edited by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: Yes, it's possible to hold back subconsciously IF they are slightly resisting the control. If there's no evidence of that, then you shouldn't just assume that they ALL were just because reasons. Being completely mind controlled does not allow you any control of your subconscious. If you actually paid attention to my posts, you'd have seen that even one of the scans I posted of Thor's lightning being absorbed by Tony proves this notion. He shot lightning at his allies and Tony claimed that if it hadn't been for his energy absorption, the Wasp and Cap would have been killed. Saying it's a case by case scenario actually hurts your argument. YOU are the one saying that every single instance has the character's subconsciously holding back.

....and my point has NEVER been that he "legitimately defeats high tiers". Once again, I'd urge you to quote me saying that. All I said is that he holds his own and he does well doing it. MUCH better than Carol has ever done. Hell, Iron Man even does better against other mid tiers than her. I admit that Tony could never put down a high tier. The only reason Carol sent Sentry flying with a punch is because she was amped at the time after absorbing the energy from a nuclear bomb. Base Carol is far from a character that can hang with high tiers.

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#81 Posted by boogie123 (303 posts) - - Show Bio
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#82 Posted by Noone1996 (13044 posts) - - Show Bio

@boogie123: Most people do... Iron Man would lose 10/10 against all competent high tiers. Would he put up a decent fight? I believe so.

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