Can Ironman kill Hulk or Thor? can he create any power?

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#101 Posted by destinyman75 (15222 posts) - - Show Bio

Kill them no. Beat them slim chance but maybe possible...

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#103 Edited by destinyman75 (15222 posts) - - Show Bio

@KrleAvenger yes I would have to see something. Thor has survived exploding stars and black holes what does tony have that he cannot absorb?

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#105 Posted by destinyman75 (15222 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: well I give you credit you have shown me ways make it possible for tony to ko and/or defeat thor but I don't see how he can be killed by those.. Without reaction

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#107 Posted by destinyman75 (15222 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Thor can survive the last and absorb the Sil Hammer since he absorbed the null bomb which is powerful enough to destroy 1/3 of the whole universe. However the point the point wasn't a vs thread but COULD he do it. So congratulations sir if hit with the full force if the Sol Hammer he could very well die. So could Superman. Good Job on the sol hammer

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#109 Edited by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

@destinyman75: I've already disproven pretty much every one of the arguments mentioned there.. sol's hammer and the genetic disruptor wouldn't even work on Thor..

Notice he mentions it "took away all avengers powers", not really true. It was never used on Hulk nor Thor.

As far as the Adamantium sentinels, they were never anywhere near to "almost killing" Hulk or Thor. All they did was shrink Hulk/Thor and have a forcefield around them.

Don't trust biased opinions from people that like to hate on certain superheroes. You can research the sol's hammer for yourself, don't take my word or anyone else's word for it.

1. It takes forever to charge it up

2. It captures and controls energy from the sun (Thor would tank it regardless of how charged up it was)

3. You can't even target individual objects/people with it.

4. In a 1v1 fight situation, it would be almost impossible for Ironman to even successfully blast it on Thor.

There's probably 5-10 or more reasons why sol's hammer isn't even relevant. It's wishful thinking/speculation just like the genetic disruptor and Z-gas gun.

As far as the adamantium sentinels just look at the scan for those and you'll see what I mean. I don't think Thor even had a scratch on him in that scan. Lol.

Btw, there's actually a reason why Marvel in general makes certain characters more powerful than others.

If Ironman can overpower characters like Thor and Hulk, those characters don't have much of a purpose. If Ironman has all this power, if he's able to defeat any superhero he wants to, why don't Thor, Hulk, and every other hero seek him out for help with all their problems?

@krleavenger You can't make the claim that "genetic disruptor would take away all asgardian powers". There is no evidence of that at all.. it working on Ares makes no difference on whether it would work on Hulk or Thor. IMO, based on Hulk's abilities, he would adapt to it.

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#110 Edited by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: The biggest thing you don't understand here is that Ironman has never and never will be able to OVERPOWER Hulk or Thor. He will always need outside help from other people or other characters to do it. When you say "prep" if prep includes being able to receive help from other characters/other people then I do admit with that sort of "prep" Ironman could beat Hulk, Thor, and many other characters. But if he's getting help from other people you can't give all the credit to Ironman in that sort of scenario.

@n_coming said:

@noone first I must say good job on putting up with him for that long.

Second what could kill Thor? Many things. Thorbuster vs normal Thor, ironman would destroy him. Heck even an argument could be mad for Thorbuster vs odinforce Thor with ironman winning because his suit was untested at the time.

Sol's hammer could wreck Thor. Destroying a planet a 2% power. I would say 10% would kill or nearly kill normal Thor, 50-60% for Odinforce Thor. He could use the genetic disrupter to take away a lot of thor's powers as he did vs sentry. Lastly he could go back in time and kill Thor when he was young.

Against hulk, his endo sym armor beat the world war hulk armor in seconds, like in 1 page. It took hulk MUCH longer to beat it. But other than that same thing as for Thor. Sol's hammer and genetic disrupter.

To cover all my bases with you saying you were talking about brute force, Thorbuster would destroy both of their normal versions.

Lol at Thorbuster being used here. Both Regular Thor, and regular Hulk, can take the suit apart with their bare hands, just like they can take apart any other Ironman suit using their hands.

Also, I shouldn't have to clarify this, but I was talking about Ironman beating Hulk or Thor in a 1v1 fight, that means he uses his own intellect, abilities, and skills to beat them. Seeking outside help, is irrelevant. I'm gladly willing to admit that if Ironman prayed to Odin and got Odin to help him beat Thor or Hulk, he could do it. But that wouldn't be Ironman beating Hulk or Thor. That would be Ironman needing Odin's help to beat Hulk or Thor.

The time travel argument is plain silly. I would be careful just carelessly assuming that Ironman has time travel as his abilities. You might not like hearing this, but both Thor and Odin have access to time travel that is actually (and obviously) much more powerful than any form of time travel Ironman would have access to.

It's also interesting that in this hypothetical "Ironman could go back in time and kill X character" argument, you just hope nobody points out the 20+ flaws with this argument. Ironman wouldn't even be able to damage teenage Thor. Ironman wouldn't even be able to GET to Thor let alone have the opportunity to launch an attack on him. I really would like to hear your entire laid out plan for how Ironman will do this. Ironman wouldn't even be able to get to the Bifrost bridge let alone pass it. There's inconsistencies in this argument the more you think about it.

With the sol's hammer we run into inconsistencies again...

1. It is very likely Thor could tank hits from Sol's hammer regardless of whether it's at 2%, 14%, or 100%.

2. Sol's hammer can't even be targeted on specific individual targets.

3. Nobody using this argument has ever been able to explain how Ironman will successfully even launch a sol's hammer attack against Thor.

@g2_ said:
@krleavenger said:

@g2_ Man you have to check this out.

Ok.

I think he could kill them if he tries to suck the gamma from Banner and if he tries to get his hands on the Midgard serpent.

What would you say the probability of him being able to do these things would be?

@krleavenger This quote here explains the basis of many of your arguments "And Thor surviving exploding stars are high end feats that should not be taken seriously as characters like Hulk, Gladiator and Silver Surfer hurt him and they can't do anything close to Destroying Stars"

So you're basically going to deny Thor's durability feats if they don't fit your argument. If you want to claim that "X feats 'should not be taken seriously" there's plenty of things that ANYONE can just say about ANY characters feats, including Ironman's feats.

Sol's hammer absorbs and uses energy from the Sun. Based on Thor's feats, he can survive a 100% hit from Sol's hammer. Based on his abilities, he can also dodge a hit from Sol's hammer, block a hit from the hammer, teleport the hammer to another dimension, destroy the hammer before it even has a chance to charge up, and etc.

Btw you can find inconsistencies and variances as far as strength or durability/abilities with every single character, including Ironman. What you're trying to do here is trying to showcase the absolute BEST creations Ironman has to offer, while claiming that the BEST feats of Thor or the best feats of Hulk just "shouldn't be considered since they are high end feats". If that's the best you can come up with then someone could easily claim "Sol's hammer is a high end feat, it 'doesn't count'"

You can't just claim that "PIS" applies to every single character besides Ironman. That's a faulty argument.

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#112 Posted by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: You accuse me of "trolling" and "not being able to accept facts", when ANYTIME someone puts up a Thor or Hulk durability feat, you just start claiming "That feat should be disregarded since it is a high end feat". That's no different than someone claiming that sol's hammer just doesn't exist because it is a "high end feat", but as you've seen I've never tried to put forth a claim like that.

I could care less if you respond back to me or not, my responses aren't just for you, they are for anyone reading the thread so people can look at the arguments and make their own decisions based on that. You accuse me of being the troll but anytime someone brings up a Thor feat you don't like thinking about, you just claim it can be "disregarded". That makes it clear who is trolling and who isn't trolling. It's also interesting that you start posting on threads that I made one year ago, with trolling type posts, but if I respond to your comments then you accuse me of being the troll.

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#114 Posted by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

Sol's hammer controls energy from the sun.. Thor stood in the center of the sun.

Mjolnir can track objects at light speed..one hit to Ironman/sol's hammer and it's done..

Genetic disruptor working on Ares (a villain) doesn't mean it would work on Thor. It is also unable to override/change Mjolnir's worthiness enchantment.

Adamantium sentinels were able to shrink Thor and other avengers, but were unable to harm them (even that was using Pym particles, not Ironman's own tech).

Ironman's time travel machine is tech he got from Dr. Doom. Even this argument has inconsistencies. There's no way to know if he can go thousands of years back in time. Even if he did, he wouldn't know how to get to Asgard. Even if he did figure out HOW to get there, his suit might not even be able to survive it. Even if he did actually get there, he might not be able to find/locate Thor. Even if he did find Thor, he might not be able to hurt him. Regardless of all these factors, Ironman's time travel tech is no doubt far weaker than time travel that Thor/Odin have access to. It sounds like you feel a bit ashamed/guilty for having Ironman as a favorite character. It's fine to have a favorite character but it doesn't mean your favorite character is Marvel's favorite character. I wonder why Ironman didn't go back in time and erase OF Thor from existence instead of trying to stop him with a "Thorbuster" suit? Is that bad writing?

He still can't accpet facts LOL.

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#115 Posted by Noone1996 (12123 posts) - - Show Bio

Sol's hammer doesn't shoot sun level heat. It uses the energy from the sun in order to shoot a beam of energy capable of destroying planets. When Sol's hammer wasn't even finished, it was able to take out Shi'ar, Kree, Skrull, Badoon, and Annihilus' fleets all in one beam and then the beam kept traveling in order to destroy a planet. Gladiator and Annihilus were aboard their ships and they weren't shown after being hit, so that means they were also killed by Sol's hammer. One-shotting Gladiator with an unconstructed Sol's hammer should be more than enough to take down Thor.

Iron Man could literally put a magnetic field around Sol's hammer and just deflect Mjolnir:

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If the genetic disruptor worked on Sentry, it'd work on Thor. It'd turn him back into Donald Blake just like how it turned Sentry back into Robert Reynolds. Mjolnir would fall out of Don's hands since he's not the worthy one.

Adamantium sentinels defeated the Avengers, X-Men, and Fantastic Four with BFR. It happened and it could be easily replicated. Period.

Iron Man's time machine was INSPIRED by Doctor Doom, but he didn't copy or steal Doom's tech to get it working. He used all of his own technology. Stark has found a way to teleport to the Negative Zone, so I don't think it'd be a problem to figure out how to get to Asgard. His armor has been teleported across dimensions before and was just fine. Thor as a baby would get effortlessly one-shotted by Iron Man.

He also built a darkmatter accelerator that could turn Thor inside out:

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#117 Posted by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor stood in the center of the sun, Sol's hammer isn't hurting him. Thor can literally transport Sol's hammer along with Ironman to another dimension. He has the ability to block the hit by creating a forcefield swinging Mjolnir, he could literally just stand there and tank the hit.

Some of his durability feats:

  • Tanking Celestial attacks
  • Tanking Destroy Amour attacks
  • Tanking Odin attacks
  • Tanking weight of half a planet
  • Tanking weight of a couple of planets
  • Tanking planet destruction
  • Sitting in sun
  • Tanking attacks from Surtur

It's pointless comparing Sentry to Thor. Sentry was a human injected with the super soldier serum. His DNA is different from Thor's. BTW, Ironman's endo sym suit took a sol's hammer hit. Does this now mean his endo sym suit has durability on par or greater than Thor or Gladiator?

Let's be clear here. The Adamantium sentinels shrunk the heroes and put a barrier around them-all of the heroes would be able to last inside the barriers until they wore off.

The dark matter accelerator- which he didn't build, has no feats. We have no way of knowing how effective it is. Considering the fact that Thor can tank planet busting attacks and fly at faster than light speeds, It's doubtful the dark matter accelerator would work. You can't assume that mutants would respond to that the same way regular humans would.

His durability has enabled him to survive blasts from the Celestials, and fight on until finally being subdued, and a blast from Odin . He has also sat in the core of the Sun, and he is immune to temperature extremes. He does not require air, and has been able to withstand planet-shattering attacks, he also withstood the weight of a score of planets, and much more. Though Thor is one of the most invulnerable of Marvel's heroes he is not immune to all forms of harm and can be defeated by a being whose power matches or exceeds his own, or by high order magic manipulation.

We don't know if Ironman can teleport to Asgard, or if he can go far enough back in time to find baby Thor. Curious to hear your explanation of how he is going to get past the bifrost bridge. Does he automatically just know his way around Asgard as well now? The "go back in time and kill baby Thor" argument has tons of inconsistencies. If you want to use that argument please explain how he's going to do it. In addition, explain how he's going to do it and SURVIVE. Lol. That's basically like a suicide mission.

Again the transforming between Donald Blake weakness was taken away. There is nothing the genetic disruptor could really do to Thor.

Sol's hammer doesn't shoot sun level heat. It uses the energy from the sun in order to shoot a beam of energy capable of destroying planets. When Sol's hammer wasn't even finished, it was able to take out Shi'ar, Kree, Skrull, Badoon, and Annihilus' fleets all in one beam and then the beam kept traveling in order to destroy a planet. Gladiator and Annihilus were aboard their ships and they weren't shown after being hit, so that means they were also killed by Sol's hammer. One-shotting Gladiator with an unconstructed Sol's hammer should be more than enough to take down Thor.

Iron Man could literally put a magnetic field around Sol's hammer and just deflect Mjolnir:

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If the genetic disruptor worked on Sentry, it'd work on Thor. It'd turn him back into Donald Blake just like how it turned Sentry back into Robert Reynolds. Mjolnir would fall out of Don's hands since he's not the worthy one.

Adamantium sentinels defeated the Avengers, X-Men, and Fantastic Four with BFR. It happened and it could be easily replicated. Period.

Iron Man's time machine was INSPIRED by Doctor Doom, but he didn't copy or steal Doom's tech to get it working. He used all of his own technology. Stark has found a way to teleport to the Negative Zone, so I don't think it'd be a problem to figure out how to get to Asgard. His armor has been teleported across dimensions before and was just fine. Thor as a baby would get effortlessly one-shotted by Iron Man.

He also built a darkmatter accelerator that could turn Thor inside out:

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#118 Posted by Noone1996 (12123 posts) - - Show Bio

Sol's hammer not only destroyed a planet, but it also one-shotted and killed Gladiator who has beaten Thor in the past. All in ONE blast. Not only that, but this was an UNFINISHED version of his dyson sphere. Thor's not no-selling it. Sol's hammer's beam is also at least 3-4 times FTL since it traveled from the sun to Earth almost instantly. It literally covered 92+ million miles instantly. Thor's not reacting to that. He's not going to transport anything faster than that beam can travel.

It doesn't just simply shoot sun heat. If it did then it wouldn't have effortlessly one-shotted Gladiator and his fleet. Gladiator has stood in a sun before too, yet Sol's hammer still killed him. Having heat resistance has nothing to do with it.

Iron Man's endo-sym armor didn't tank a hit from Sol's hammer. The scan you are thinking of was just of Stark surviving the meltdown of Sol's hammer. It just fell apart and the pieces got melted by the sun. That's it.

Sentry has literally survived being molecularly dismantled by Molecule Man. His body molecularly re-created himself after getting destroyed, yet he couldn't fix himself after Stark's genetic disruptor messed with him. It doesn't matter how he got his powers or if he was human before. Ares wasn't human before and was born a god too. Unless Thor has shown resistance to being genetically manipulated, it should work on him since it affected a godly physiology and someone as powerful as Sentry.

Let's be clear here, that still counts as a loss. It's BFR.

Ummm... Yes he did build it? You should read stories before you talk so confidently about what happened. The futuristic version of himself built it, but Kang brought it back in time in order to threaten the Avengers with it. The futuristic version of Iron Man later tells the present day Iron Man that the device would destroy Earth and everyone on it (including a version of Ultron that killed Thor) and to use it if they fail to stop Ultron. So yeah, he did think of it and built it in the future. He is capable of building such a device.

Those are EXTREMELY high end feats for Thor. He can tank hits from Skyfather level characters like Galactus, Odin, and Celestials, yet he gets hurt and knocked out by characters much weaker like Wonder Man, Hulk, Gladiator, Red Hulk, Count Nefaria, Ultron, etc.

Stark is a lot smarter than I am. He'd come up with a perfect time and place and strategy to get rid of Thor if he had access to the timestream. Just because I can't come up with some bulletproof argument or strategy that doesn't mean that I'm wrong or that Stark can't. He could go back in time and go after Thor when he's depowered, weak, or vulnerable. For example, when Odin sends Thor to Earth and he's trapped in Don Blake's body, Tony could easily just kill the doctor and then get rid of Thor. There are an infinite amount of strategies that he could utilize with a time machine. Captain America has admitted that Stark is a genius tactician. He could think of something.

Ummm no the weakness wasn't taken away. The 60 second limit weakness is gone now (where if Thor was separated from Mjolnir for too long), but Thor still has Don Blake inside of him:

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#119 Edited by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

It killing Gladiator is speculation.

Thor can use a Godblast to destroy the hammer before it can do anything. He could use his hammer to track Ironman (and destroy him) before he can get inside sol's hammer. He could teleport sol's hammer, or absorb the beam with Mjolnir, or deflect it, etc. etc. I thought we were talking about Sol's hammer attacking a Thor that would be standing still not doing anything. If you're actually arguing for Sol's hammer being used in a 1v1 fight situation, that's a much, much more difficult argument to make.

And how did sol's hammer fall apart in the endo sym scan?

Olympians are not the same as Asgardians. There's variances with Hercules and Ares, you can't possibly assume that something working on Ares means it can be assumed to work on Thor. I'm also interested which version of Ares it worked on. Ares is also a villain so again, considering the fact that Thor is immune to earthly diseases, toxins, pollutants, and weapons, it can be assumed the disruptor wouldn't work on him.

"Destroying Earth and everyone on it" implies the human race is in danger. You're trying to twist future Stark's warning statement into an absolute , 100% literal statement when that isn't what it was. You and I both know that statement was a warning statement. "Everyone on Earth could be destroyed" means the 7 billion humans on Earth that superheroes protect could be killed. Obviously there's numerous amounts of characters that would be able to escape the planet using their speed/flight or other abilities. If it truly destroyed absolutely every single thing, that would include Ironman himself being killed. I'm pretty certain Stark would be able to escape the dark matter accelerator along with Thor, Hulk, and pretty much any character that has the ability to quickly get into space or leave the Earth in some way.

Sol's hammer is an EXTREMELY high end feat for Tony. You can't use high end feats for Tony but try to deny/disregard high end feats for other characters. That's inconsistent. Tony has tanked stronger characters at times and been beat by weaker characters. EVERY character has variances in durability/power/other abilities. Ironman isn't some sort of a victim here where he is immune to variances in powers.

Claiming "Stark is just smart enough to figure it out" is a cop-out. Stark doesn't know his way around Asgard. Period. You can literally use that line to justify ANY claim. Someone could say "I know Stark is a genius. I'm sure he'll figure out some way to beat Odin, or Zeus, or Beyonder".

Playing with the timestream is irrelevant. When I made the thread I was asking if Stark can beat regular Thor. I fully admit if Thor was in a depowered state due to Odin taking his powers away, at that point, obviously Stark could hurt (but not kill) him.

Playing with the timestream is an abstract argument that has been proven wrong over and over. It isn't relevant at all to the question of whether or not Ironman can beat a normal powered Thor. IF he had the ability to go back in time, and if we assume he actually kills a baby Thor or vulnerable depowered Thor, the timeline would simply be rewritten by Odin or someone else. But in addition to all of this, we don't know if Ironman can go far enough back in time, we don't know if he can get to Asgard, we don't know if he can find his way around Asgard, we don't know if he can even get past, or walk on the Bifrost bridge. Tony has very, very little experience with Asgardian tech. This is why it's pointless claiming "Ironman is one of the smartest in Marvel, he can figure out anything". Ironman's one of the smartest when it comes to engineering and robotics but when it comes to magic his knowledge is (obviously) minuscule compared to Dr. Strange, Thor, or Asgardians/Olympians/other worlds.

And going after a depowered Thor isn't part of prep or a 1v1 match. That's Ironman getting some help from Odin to take down Thor. If you're going to make extreme claims like Ironman going back in time you can't expect people to take your word for it just because "Ironman can figure it out, but I can't because Stark is smarter than me".

@noone1996 said:

Sol's hammer not only destroyed a planet, but it also one-shotted and killed Gladiator who has beaten Thor in the past. All in ONE blast. Not only that, but this was an UNFINISHED version of his dyson sphere. Thor's not no-selling it. Sol's hammer's beam is also at least 3-4 times FTL since it traveled from the sun to Earth almost instantly. It literally covered 92+ million miles instantly. Thor's not reacting to that. He's not going to transport anything faster than that beam can travel.

It doesn't just simply shoot sun heat. If it did then it wouldn't have effortlessly one-shotted Gladiator and his fleet. Gladiator has stood in a sun before too, yet Sol's hammer still killed him. Having heat resistance has nothing to do with it.

Iron Man's endo-sym armor didn't tank a hit from Sol's hammer. The scan you are thinking of was just of Stark surviving the meltdown of Sol's hammer. It just fell apart and the pieces got melted by the sun. That's it.

Sentry has literally survived being molecularly dismantled by Molecule Man. His body molecularly re-created himself after getting destroyed, yet he couldn't fix himself after Stark's genetic disruptor messed with him. It doesn't matter how he got his powers or if he was human before. Ares wasn't human before and was born a god too. Unless Thor has shown resistance to being genetically manipulated, it should work on him since it affected a godly physiology and someone as powerful as Sentry.

Let's be clear here, that still counts as a loss. It's BFR.

Ummm... Yes he did build it? You should read stories before you talk so confidently about what happened. The futuristic version of himself built it, but Kang brought it back in time in order to threaten the Avengers with it. The futuristic version of Iron Man later tells the present day Iron Man that the device would destroy Earth and everyone on it (including a version of Ultron that killed Thor) and to use it if they fail to stop Ultron. So yeah, he did think of it and built it in the future. He is capable of building such a device.

Those are EXTREMELY high end feats for Thor. He can tank hits from Skyfather level characters like Galactus, Odin, and Celestials, yet he gets hurt and knocked out by characters much weaker like Wonder Man, Hulk, Gladiator, Red Hulk, Count Nefaria, Ultron, etc.

Stark is a lot smarter than I am. He'd come up with a perfect time and place and strategy to get rid of Thor if he had access to the timestream. Just because I can't come up with some bulletproof argument or strategy that doesn't mean that I'm wrong or that Stark can't. He could go back in time and go after Thor when he's depowered, weak, or vulnerable. For example, when Odin sends Thor to Earth and he's trapped in Don Blake's body, Tony could easily just kill the doctor and then get rid of Thor. There are an infinite amount of strategies that he could utilize with a time machine. Captain America has admitted that Stark is a genius tactician. He could think of something.

Ummm no the weakness wasn't taken away. The 60 second limit weakness is gone now (where if Thor was separated from Mjolnir for too long), but Thor still has Don Blake inside of him:

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#120 Edited by Noone1996 (12123 posts) - - Show Bio

No it's not. Kallark's plan was to destroy Earth. If he survived the blast from Sol's hammer then why didn't he just fly toward Earth and destroy it with his bare hands? He is capable of such a feat after all. Where did he go if he didn't get taken out by the blast? Where did Annihilus go?

Sol's hammer's beam would fly at Thor faster than he can do or react to any of that. He's not Superman. Thor's hammer can't track Iron Man. Please post scans of Mjolnir doing that. If he makes himself invisible he can sneak into the dyson sphere without Thor even knowing and then just blast him. Thor wouldn't know what hit him.

Sol's hammer fell apart because it wasn't done being created and Stark pushed it too hard, so it collapsed. The dyson sphere was only 2% operational (by Tony's choice since 2% is all that was needed to destroy a planet).

Sentry is also immune to diseases, toxins, and weapons, but it still worked on him. It was Ares, Hercules' brother. The god of war. It's proven to work on someone with a godly physiology and genetics. It also worked on someone that could control molecules.

The Earth was in danger... Once again... Maybe read the comic? It's Avengers The Heroic Age Issue #6. Ultron had become so powerful that he took over Earth and killed most of the Avengers (Hulk and Iron Man were the only ones left). Future Iron Man said to use the darkmatter accelerator as a worst case scenario in case they couldn't stop Ultron. He and Kang were confident that it would have killed this version of Ultron:

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This Ultron killed Thor.

The only reason the darkmatter accelerator wasn't used was because it would kill whoever activated it too. Stark could easily solve this problem in a prep encounter by having a remote armor use it while he's a safe distance away.

Well Thor's durability isn't at Skyfather levels. It's not inconsistent when someone like Hulk or Sentry hurts Thor. That's where his consistent durability is. Not at "tanking hits from Odin and Galactus" levels. How is building Sol's hammer a "high-end feat"? He's literally come up with hundreds of planet busting weapons:

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The Illuminati finds 653 planet busting designs in his files.

K. I'm not responding to all of that that you typed out about it being a cop-out, Stark not being able to go far enough, Odin reversing time, etc. If Iron Man goes back a decade or two and finds Donald Blake, before he figures out that he has Thor inside of him, then Stark would one-shot Donald Blake and then Thor would die along with him. Period. Stark would kill Thor that way. It doesn't matter what Odin reverses time afterwards or whatever. In a battle forum scenario, that would count as a win. Stark is easily capable of doing this.

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#121 Posted by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

Sol's hammer MAY be able to hit Thor, ONLY if it is a random, surprise attack, with Thor being on Earth. The thing is, it won't kill him. It would hurt him, and then it would be like a suicide mission for Ironman at that point.

I shouldn't need to reference basic abilities that you can find on the comicvine character page. Denying Thor's abilities is just another way to avoid the argument.

"His durability has enabled him to survive blasts from the Celestials, and fight on until finally being subdued, and a blast from Odin . He has also sat in the core of the Sun, and he is immune to temperature extremes. He does not require air, and has been able to withstand planet-shattering attacks, he also withstood the weight of a score of planets, and much more."

"He is often seen flying at very fast speeds, and has even kept up with the Silver Surfer. He has flown several of time faster than light on multiple occasions"

"he is able to heal from most injuries much faster than a human being could. This healing factor is said to be much stronger than that of the typical Asgardian God"

"Though rarely displayed Thor possess some god like senses. He's able to see as far as the edge of the solar system and track objects traveling faster than the speed of light. He can also hear cries from the other side of the planet."

"Thor also displayed this ability when he created a chasm in Africa between two different areas to prevent the enemies of one side from entering the territory of the other."

"Thor has the ability to affect the weather on a planetary wide scale but often refrains from doing so from the mass damage that it could cause. Thor is able to stop any of the weather conditions that he creates."

"In Earth's atmosphere, he limits himself to the speed of sound. When in space, he travels at faster than light speeds."

"Thor’s hammer has been shown to make either himself or others completely invisible or intangible. This ability also has an opposite effect as it has been shown to disrupt the phasing abilities of beings such asShadowcat and Vision."

"Mjolnir has given Thor the ability to create powerful barriers that have been seen to be impenetrable. This has given Thor the ability to contain powerful explosions."

"Thor has been seen to have the ability to absorb energy blasts from even the most powerful of beings. Thor can store this energy within Mjolnir and direct it back at a given target."

Sol's hammer falling apart at 2% makes it difficult to argue for it reaching higher amounts of charges. You're forgetting that sol's hammer can't lock onto an individual person standing on Earth. So with the sol's hammer scenario, would be nice if you could follow through and explain exactly how it would go. Again if it is a random, surprise attack, that might be different. If Thor literally stands in front of it and lets Tony blast him that would be different. But arguing that he could successfully use it in a 1v1 fight, where Thor is aware he is fighting Ironman is an almost impossible argument.

"Godly physiology" is irrelevant. Asgardians and Olympians are NOT the same. Their genetics are different. That's a fact. It's why they don't age but Asgardians do age. You can't assume that just because something works on one race, it works on any other race. There is absolutely no way to know if the genetic disruptor works on Thor, unless it is actually tried on Thor. This is because even among Asgardians, Thor's genetics are different, and more powerful, due to his mother.

The fact that it worked on Ares, if Ares was not already depowered, is in itself a HIGH END feat that only happened because Ares was a villain.

The statement "Godly physiology" is so broad you can again use that to justify many things. The One Above All is considered a God as well, the celestials are considered "Gods" as well.

The only reason the darkmatter accelerator wasn't used was because it would kill whoever activated it too. Stark could easily solve this problem in a prep encounter by having a remote armor use it while he's a safe distance away.

There's the key. 'While he's a safe distance away'. What exactly is that safe distance? That 'safe distance' is exactly why I mentioned that Thor, Ironman, Hulk, among numerous other characters, would be able to escape the Earth before they were damaged by the dark matter accelerator.

Ironman's normal power isn't at planet busting. That's why sol's hammer is considered a high end feat. If you're going to claim that Thor's feats don't count because they are "high end" then sol's hammer doesn't count because it is high end.

Again, practically every single character has variances in their durability and power levels. You can't victimize Ironman and act like he is immune from variances in durability and power levels. You want to use any feats possible for Ironman but if someone brings up a Thor feat proving he would tank sol's hammer, you claim it is a "high end feat that should be disregarded". That's being inconsistent.

You still don't get it. If Stark kills Donald Blake, that is Stark getting help from Odin, because the entire REASON the whole Donald Blake/Thor transformation stuff even existed was because of Odin depowering Thor. You can't give credit to Ironman for something that he needed Odin or someone else's help to carry out. It's the same reason why the Hulkbuster AOU fight and the Civil war fights were not considered 1v1 fights. I mentioned this before but if 'prep' to you includes being able to get help from outside forces, please mention that so we are clear on that. You might consider Ironman getting outside help to be part of 'prep' but technically that is literally Ironman getting outside help. I've already admitted that if Odin help's Ironman they can beat Thor together. The Donald Blake transformation process only exists in the first place because of Odin, and only applies on Earth. It's why there is no Donald Blake in Asgard.

No it's not. Kallark's plan was to destroy Earth. If he survived the blast from Sol's hammer then why didn't he just fly toward Earth and destroy it with his bare hands? He is capable of such a feat after all. Where did he go if he didn't get taken out by the blast? Where did Annihilus go?

Sol's hammer's beam would fly at Thor faster than he can do or react to any of that. He's not Superman. Thor's hammer can't track Iron Man. Please post scans of Mjolnir doing that. If he makes himself invisible he can sneak into the dyson sphere without Thor even knowing and then just blast him. Thor wouldn't know what hit him.

Sol's hammer fell apart because it wasn't done being created and Stark pushed it too hard, so it collapsed. The dyson sphere was only 2% operational (by Tony's choice since 2% is all that was needed to destroy a planet).

Sentry is also immune to diseases, toxins, and weapons, but it still worked on him. It was Ares, Hercules' brother. The god of war. It's proven to work on someone with a godly physiology and genetics. It also worked on someone that could control molecules.

The Earth was in danger... Once again... Maybe read the comic? It's Avengers The Heroic Age Issue #6. Ultron had become so powerful that he took over Earth and killed most of the Avengers (Hulk and Iron Man were the only ones left). Future Iron Man said to use the darkmatter accelerator as a worst case scenario in case they couldn't stop Ultron. He and Kang were confident that it would have killed this version of Ultron:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
This Ultron killed Thor.

The only reason the darkmatter accelerator wasn't used was because it would kill whoever activated it too. Stark could easily solve this problem in a prep encounter by having a remote armor use it while he's a safe distance away.

Well Thor's durability isn't at Skyfather levels. It's not inconsistent when someone like Hulk or Sentry hurts Thor. That's where his consistent durability is. Not at "tanking hits from Odin and Galactus" levels. How is building Sol's hammer a "high-end feat"? He's literally come up with hundreds of planet busting weapons:

No Caption Provided

The Illuminati finds 653 planet busting designs in his files.

K. I'm not responding to all of that that you typed out about it being a cop-out, Stark not being able to go far enough, Odin reversing time, etc. If Iron Man goes back a decade or two and finds Donald Blake, before he figures out that he has Thor inside of him, then Stark would one-shot Donald Blake and then Thor would die along with him. Period. Stark would kill Thor that way. It doesn't matter what Odin reverses time afterwards or whatever. In a battle forum scenario, that would count as a win. Stark is easily capable of doing this.

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#122 Edited by Noone1996 (12123 posts) - - Show Bio

@whoisthebest said:

Sol's hammer MAY be able to hit Thor, ONLY if it is a random, surprise attack, with Thor being on Earth. The thing is, it won't kill him. It would hurt him, and then it would be like a suicide mission for Ironman at that point.

If it one-shotted Gladiator, someone faster and more durable than Thor, then it will defeat Thor just fine. Also, if you want proof that Gladiator is more durable than Thor I've got this:

Withstands and contains an explosion that Reed Richards describes as comparable to a nova capable of annihilating half a solar system:

No Caption Provided

He even survived an attack that one-shotted the Silver Surfer:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

At the very least, Thor and Gladiator are near the same range when it comes to durability, so I don't see how you can think that Thor would just barely get hurt by Sol's hammer and not KO'd even though it's done worse to someone more powerful.

Gladiator was even warned by his ship's systems that he was about to be attacked from Sol's hammer and he didn't do anything to dodge it. They detected an energy fluctuation in the sun and instead of trying to fly away in time, he says "Shaara and K'ythiri save us."

I shouldn't need to reference basic abilities that you can find on the comicvine character page. Denying Thor's abilities is just another way to avoid the argument.

So what if I write on a wiki page that Iron Man can manipulate molecules and then reference that wiki page source as proof that he can beat Thor? And then say, " I shouldn't need to reference his abilities. Denying Iron Man's abilities is just another way to avoid the argument."? Post scans that prove your points. If I claimed that Iron Man defeated Thor, wouldn't you want scans to prove it, or would you just take my word for it or look it up on a wiki page?

"His durability has enabled him to survive blasts from the Celestials, and fight on until finally being subdued, and a blast from Odin . He has also sat in the core of the Sun, and he is immune to temperature extremes. He does not require air, and has been able to withstand planet-shattering attacks, he also withstood the weight of a score of planets, and much more."

"He is often seen flying at very fast speeds, and has even kept up with the Silver Surfer. He has flown several of time faster than light on multiple occasions"

"he is able to heal from most injuries much faster than a human being could. This healing factor is said to be much stronger than that of the typical Asgardian God"

"Though rarely displayed Thor possess some god like senses. He's able to see as far as the edge of the solar system and track objects traveling faster than the speed of light. He can also hear cries from the other side of the planet."

"Thor also displayed this ability when he created a chasm in Africa between two different areas to prevent the enemies of one side from entering the territory of the other."

"Thor has the ability to affect the weather on a planetary wide scale but often refrains from doing so from the mass damage that it could cause. Thor is able to stop any of the weather conditions that he creates."

"In Earth's atmosphere, he limits himself to the speed of sound. When in space, he travels at faster than light speeds."

"Thor’s hammer has been shown to make either himself or others completely invisible or intangible. This ability also has an opposite effect as it has been shown to disrupt the phasing abilities of beings such asShadowcat and Vision."

"Mjolnir has given Thor the ability to create powerful barriers that have been seen to be impenetrable. This has given Thor the ability to contain powerful explosions."

"Thor has been seen to have the ability to absorb energy blasts from even the most powerful of beings. Thor can store this energy within Mjolnir and direct it back at a given target."

Everything there that you just mentioned is either a super high-end feat or not as good as Gladiator's feats. Sorry.

Sol's hammer falling apart at 2% makes it difficult to argue for it reaching higher amounts of charges. You're forgetting that sol's hammer can't lock onto an individual person standing on Earth. So with the sol's hammer scenario, would be nice if you could follow through and explain exactly how it would go. Again if it is a random, surprise attack, that might be different. If Thor literally stands in front of it and lets Tony blast him that would be different. But arguing that he could successfully use it in a 1v1 fight, where Thor is aware he is fighting Ironman is an almost impossible argument.

It was only 2% finished. He used 150% of the power. He pushed it past it's breaking point and it collapsed. If he had actually finished the dyson sphere then it wouldn't have collapsed. It's that simple.

It would depend on the circumstances of Thor and Iron Man's fight. Is it morals off and blood-lusted with prep? If it is then Tony would teleport to the dyson sphere and destroy Thor while he's on the planet. If it's in character with morals on and with prep, then he'd trick and lure Thor into space (maybe use some drones to distract him and make him think he's fighting the real thing) and then teleport and hit him with the dyson sphere from behind (if he was in character with morals on then he wouldn't destroy the Earth just to win). It all depends on the scenario. If you want to present a scenario, then by all means go for it, but there are a lot of different circumstances that could be at play. Also, I'm pretty sure that there actually is a way for his dyson sphere to individually lock on to things. Think about it, he's on the sun and he was able to destroy, with extreme accuracy, the small little fleet of alien civilizations and the rogue Earth planet from over 90 MILLION miles away. It's not like he just eyeballed it and said, "Well, that little dot looks like Earth, so I guess I'll just shoot over there." His dyson sphere likely has targeting systems and extremely advanced telescopes because you'd be so far away from Earth that you wouldn't be able to accurately see anything. For a reference, this is what Earth looks like from Mars:

Mars is only 33 million miles away from Earth whereas the sun is over 60 million miles away.
Mars is only 33 million miles away from Earth whereas the sun is over 60 million miles away.

You can barely see that, right? Imagine trying to aim and lock onto that, but being over 25 million miles FURTHER away on the sun. Obviously, Stark has some advanced sensors and targeting systems.

It's not an impossible argument because Stark is extremely tactical and smart. He could easily outsmart Thor and hit him with it from a distance. Unless you think Thor is smarter than Tony now?

"Godly physiology" is irrelevant. Asgardians and Olympians are NOT the same. Their genetics are different. That's a fact. It's why they don't age but Asgardians do age. You can't assume that just because something works on one race, it works on any other race. There is absolutely no way to know if the genetic disruptor works on Thor, unless it is actually tried on Thor. This is because even among Asgardians, Thor's genetics are different, and more powerful, due to his mother.

Alright, fair enough. How do you explain Sentry being depowered then? Does Thor have that level of control of his molecules like Sentry does? Why didn't Sentry just rearrange his genetics back into order? I really don't know how you think Thor can just huff the genetic disruptor gas and be unaffected by it when it attacks DNA. Do Thor's powers not come from his genetic make-up? And please don't tell me about how his powers come from Mjolnir. His strength, durability, speed, and control over the elements were things that he possessed before he could even wield Mjolnir. The hammer just heightens these abilities that he already has.

The fact that it worked on Ares, if Ares was not already depowered, is in itself a HIGH END feat that only happened because Ares was a villain.

He wasn't depowered when he worked for Norman, otherwise he wouldn't even be on the team. Tony Stark didn't even use the genetic disruptor on Ares, another villain stole the tech and used it on the Dark Avengers, so using the "he's a villain so all villains lose against good guys" argument doesn't hold up at all.

The statement "Godly physiology" is so broad you can again use that to justify many things. The One Above All is considered a God as well, the celestials are considered "Gods" as well.

Thor and Ares have more in common than Celestials or the OAA, but I agree that it's speculation that it'd work on Thor based solely on the fact that it worked on Ares. If anything, it proves more that it'd work on Hercules more than Thor since Ares and Herc are brothers and from the same pantheon. However, the device works by rearranging and manipulating someone's genetics. Unless Thor doesn't have genes or has shown to be immune to that sort of attack (which he hasn't since Malekith has manipulated his internal organs before) I don't see why it wouldn't work. The whole "he has REALLY godly genetic makeup so it won't work" argument doesn't exactly hold up. The genetic disruptor hasn't shown to struggle working with anybody just because they have unique DNA.

There's the key. 'While he's a safe distance away'. What exactly is that safe distance? That 'safe distance' is exactly why I mentioned that Thor, Ironman, Hulk, among numerous other characters, would be able to escape the Earth before they were damaged by the dark matter accelerator.

It's a planetary doomsday device, so he'd just have to sit on the moon while he does it. All he needs is a drone to hold it on Earth.

Ironman's normal power isn't at planet busting. That's why sol's hammer is considered a high end feat. If you're going to claim that Thor's feats don't count because they are "high end" then sol's hammer doesn't count because it is high end.

First of all, we need to make one thing clear: there is a difference between what Iron Man can do with and without prep. Without prep, you are right, his normal power isn't planet busting. He's a multi-mountain level character. Nowhere near planetary. However, Iron Man's PREP POWER, which is another category completely, obviously is planet busting based on the evidence I just provided. He had over 600 files of planetary destruction weapons. Sol's hammer is one of HUNDREDS of planet busting weapons. So no, it's not a high end prep feat if he's made 600+ other ones.

Again, practically every single character has variances in their durability and power levels. You can't victimize Ironman and act like he is immune from variances in durability and power levels. You want to use any feats possible for Ironman but if someone brings up a Thor feat proving he would tank sol's hammer, you claim it is a "high end feat that should be disregarded". That's being inconsistent.

You can bypass these variances by looking at consistency and middle-end feats. Iron Man's best durability feats are tanking an attack that was so powerful that it literally sunk the entire West Coast of the United States and strikes from Odin force Thor, but those are high end feats. When you examine a low-end feat, like him getting taken out by Captain America or the Winter Soldier, then you can look at his feats that are somewhere in the middle of his high-end and low-end feats. What's in the middle for Iron Man? Tanking multi-mountain busting attacks (which are well above nuclear level). Now look at Thor. A high-end feat would be tanking hits from Skyfather level characters like Odin, Galactus, or Celestials. Skyfather leveled characters are literally universal in power and strength. Now we take a look at low-end feats. Venom once drew blood from punching him, he's struggled fighting Wolverine, staggered by Iron Patriot's punches, etc. So where is the middle ground? Thor busting planets and tanking planetary destructive attacks, evenly fighting other planetary characters like Hulk, Silver Surfer, Hyperion, Sentry, etc. So he's planetary or multi-planetary. If you don't go down the middle then Thor is either too weak to easily beat street levelers or he's so strong that he can hang with Skyfathers. Looking down the middle is more accurate.

Based on consistency, Stark has built over 600 planetary destructive weapons. Sol's hammer is one of hundreds, so I don't see how it's a high-end feat if he created so many. That'd be like if Thor destroyed 600 planets and I told you that was a high end feat when he destroyed a planet from the shockwaves of his blows while fighting Gorr.

You still don't get it. If Stark kills Donald Blake, that is Stark getting help from Odin, because the entire REASON the whole Donald Blake/Thor transformation stuff even existed was because of Odin depowering Thor. You can't give credit to Ironman for something that he needed Odin or someone else's help to carry out. It's the same reason why the Hulkbuster AOU fight and the Civil war fights were not considered 1v1 fights. I mentioned this before but if 'prep' to you includes being able to get help from outside forces, please mention that so we are clear on that. You might consider Ironman getting outside help to be part of 'prep' but technically that is literally Ironman getting outside help. I've already admitted that if Odin help's Ironman they can beat Thor together. The Donald Blake transformation process only exists in the first place because of Odin, and only applies on Earth. It's why there is no Donald Blake in Asgard.

I do get it, but it doesn't matter if Odin depowered Thor. Iron Man would still take advantage of something that actually happened in the comics. That'd be like saying Thor can't beat Iron Man on his own since Odin enchanted his hammer or saying Hulk couldn't beat Iron Man in a 1v1 in World War Hulk because Iron Man's SPIN tech nanites were stolen and messed with. You are just making unnecessary and desperate excuses because for some very weird reason you just can't accept facts that go against your preconceived notions about Thor and Hulk. Even when I provide more and more evidence you still make excuses and nitpick just to "defend Thor and Hulk's honor". It makes you look really biased and non-objective. I mean what about the adamantium sentinels? That's literally existential proof that he can and has beaten them with prep time.

Also, don't even try to say, "he used Pym Particles which isn't his tech" because Pym didn't "invent" or "create" them. He just DISCOVERED them. Anybody can use them. Reed Richards even knows more about Pym Particles than Hank does. I mean that'd be like saying any country that makes nuclear weapons can't do it on their own since the United States discovered the equation for separating atoms to create nuclear fission. Your "1v1" mentality doesn't make any sense and if that's not bad enough, you preach it like it's fact when it's really just your opinion.

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#123 Posted by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

"Gladiator’s invulnerability is dependent on his level of confidence. The more confidence he has in himself the lesser likely it is that he will be susceptible to harm. But if Gladiator were to begin to doubt himself his level of invulnerability drops significantly."

It's VERY misleading to compare Gladiator's durability to Thor's. See how I had to dig that up myself so the folks reading this thread could see it? The only thing that changes Thor's durability is the WRITERS themselves. Other than that, there are no weaknesses in his durability. It's crazy that you would claim that Gladiator's durability is greater than Thor's. It isn't.

"Many of Gladiators abilities are directly related to his level of confidence. When Gladiator doubts in himself or his abilities the level of his strength, invulnerability, speed, and heat vision drops considerably. Gladiator has also been seen to be susceptible to certain amounts of radiation."

Thor's strength, speed, and invulnerability and abilities don't go up and down. Period.

There's multiple websites, as well as the comicvine character page, as well as numerous threads (with scans) about Thor mentioning these things. Then you also have things Thor does in the MCU and other media. I'd also urge you to try and put that into a wiki page, you'll quickly see that it will be edited out if you can't provide a valid source for it. If I wanted you to prove Ironman could beat Thor I'd want you to explain how he can do it. Nothing I've even stated about Thor is hard to believe at all, you're only asking me for scans for these things to deflect the argument and change the subject.

Then when it's a feat of Thor's you don't like or don't agree with, you just call it a "super high end-feat". It doesn't matter if you think his feats are average, high end, or low end. They are still Thor's feats. They are still things that Thor has the potential to do. Again I could easily disregard Ironman's feats (sol's hammer) but i'm NOT doing that, I'm actually arguing for why Thor could tank it, dodge it, destroy it, teleport it, etc. You don't have the ability to erase Thor's feats from existence just because you don't personally like them or agree with them.

Btw Thor has FULL control of all elements of the storm which includes lightning. It's why he can launch massive, super powerful lightning bolts, or lightning bolts as weak as natural lightning. Using Mjolnir actually helps him control his abilities as well. He can create massive earthquakes and tornadoes, or create smaller ones.

Okay, so the dyson sphere was 2% finished now, before you were claiming 2% power was all it needed. I've been taking your word for the numbers as far as sol's hammer but I'm not sure why the numbers are constantly changing. So a 150% charged sol's hammer was the one that took down Gladiators fleet? Beating Gladiator doesn't prove anything once you understand Gladiators abilities mentioned earlier. Btw, which star was he using when he took down that fleet? Was it the Sun? Once he captures all the energy output from one star, he would have to find a different one.

"He'd trick and lure Thor into space". How? Are we supposed to just accept this?

I'm assuming in your fight with a bloodlusted, morals off Tony; Thor would still have his morals on, correct? Because a morals off Thor would easily take that fight. While a morals on Thor wouldn't even want to hurt Ironman's drones out of fear that he was harming Ironman. In fact, a morals on Thor would either tank the hit, teleport sol's hammer, or deflect/absorb the hit with Mjolnir, in order to save the planet.

Being smart is relative. Tony is smarter than Thor when it comes to engineering and robotics. Thor is smarter than him when it comes to magic and fighting. Your stereotype of the "muscular, dumb brute" doesn't apply to Thor.

The hammer makes it easier for Thor to control and amplify his abilities, but it can also be used to fly, create forcefields, take down forcefields, teleport objects, absorb/deflect energy attacks, and more.

Malekith manipulated his organs using high order magic.

I don't think you're grasping that this is the comic book world where we have hundreds of different types of races, abstract and cosmic beings, and all sorts of abnormal, unnatural, strange beings. You're acting like this is real life and that just because a genetic disruptor would work on humans, it MUST work on anything and everything in the comic book world. It doesn't work that way. Sentry was a human that was injected with the super soldier serum. You do realize that Ares was still alive even after Sentry ripped him in half, by the way, right? The only reason Ironman's genetic disruptor worked on Ares was likely due to him being on Earth and being a villain.

Btw, "after an extensive self-imposed exile on the Earthly plane, Ares was physically vulnerable enough to be injured and downed by mere bullets."

"However, neither his rudimentary magic nor his Olympian natural abilities were capable of overwhelming the Merlin-tutored Morgan le Fay or preventing the mistress of the mystic arts from easily transmuting him into stone."

"While not as accomplished at magic as many of his fellow Olympians, and lacking the ability to fly, or to project energy, as an Olympian god Ares has the potential to use magic."

"such as abandoning his station as the God of War to lead a mortal life"

You can't really argue for something being effective on Ares being effective on Hercules either.

The genetic disruptor has barely been used. Malekith being able to do something to Thor doesn't mean Ironman would be able to do the same thing to Thor, lol. This is going back to my previous point about how being able to create and improve technology is different than ultra powerful or infinitely powerful technology.

This is how things get twisted. Tony Stark doesn't have the time or the resources to create 600 planet busting weapons on his own. Can you even name 15 of these 600 planet busting weapons? Having ideas for 600 planet busting weapons isn't the same as actually creating them. This sounds like a desperate attempt to exaggerate Starks abilities. He had over 600 IDEAS for planet busting weapons, and obviously, out of all of them, sol's hammer was likely the best, most efficient option.

This is where things get twisted again. Ironman never had the ability to tank attacks from Odin force Thor. That was a unique feature the crystal powering the suit had. You can't give credit to Ironman for something he didn't create. We both know that the ONLY reason the suit as as powerful and durable as it was, was because of the GEM powering the suit. You can't apply that as part of Ironman's durability feats. That's almost like giving him credit for the Iron destroyer or Godkiller suits. An Asgardian gem being able to absorb Odin force Thor's attacks doesn't mean Ironman is durable enough to do so.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to twist things to suit your agenda. If Stark built 600 planet busting weapons, can you name 15 of them? There's a massive difference between having ideas and plans for something vs. actually creating and building it. Out of all of his 600 ideas for planet busting weapons, sol's hammer was the best he came up with.

No, you still don't get it.

Donald Blake is not a normal part of Thor. Normal Thor, as Thor is supposed to be, is the Thor on Asgard. Donald Blake was something that Odin made Thor into. That entire transformation process was something Odin did to depower Thor. If Odin has to weaken Thor below his normal levels, and then Ironman attacks him, that isn't a 1v1 fight. If Ironman himself depowered Thor, using his own abilities, intellect, or skills, that would be 1v1. If he needs someone else to depower Thor first, that isn't a 1v1. Thor being Odin's son is irrelevant, Iron man only has billions because he was born rich, he is only as smart as he is due to his genetics and who his parents were.

All the adamantium sentinels can do is shrink them and put a forcefield around them. We all know why Hulk would break through it. Thor has the ability to break through their forcefields as well, but didn't do it due to his attacks being too destructive.

My 1v1 mentality makes perfect, logical sense. If you use your own skills, intellect, and abilities to take down an opponent, thats a 1v1. If Iron man needs someone else to HAND weapons or tech to him, or if he needs someone else to WEAKEN an opponent before he fights that opponent, that isn't 1v1, that's called getting help from other people. Plain and simple. You might want to hide that under the guise of "prep" but that doesn't change the fact that he had to get outside help from other people in order to take down his opponent.

@whoisthebest said:

Sol's hammer MAY be able to hit Thor, ONLY if it is a random, surprise attack, with Thor being on Earth. The thing is, it won't kill him. It would hurt him, and then it would be like a suicide mission for Ironman at that point.

If it one-shotted Gladiator, someone faster and more durable than Thor, then it will defeat Thor just fine. Also, if you want proof that Gladiator is more durable than Thor I've got this:

Withstands and contains an explosion that Reed Richards describes as comparable to a nova capable of annihilating half a solar system:

No Caption Provided

He even survived an attack that one-shotted the Silver Surfer:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

At the very least, Thor and Gladiator are near the same range when it comes to durability, so I don't see how you can think that Thor would just barely get hurt by Sol's hammer and not KO'd even though it's done worse to someone more powerful.

Gladiator was even warned by his ship's systems that he was about to be attacked from Sol's hammer and he didn't do anything to dodge it. They detected an energy fluctuation in the sun and instead of trying to fly away in time, he says "Shaara and K'ythiri save us."

I shouldn't need to reference basic abilities that you can find on the comicvine character page. Denying Thor's abilities is just another way to avoid the argument.

So what if I write on a wiki page that Iron Man can manipulate molecules and then reference that wiki page source as proof that he can beat Thor? And then say, " I shouldn't need to reference his abilities. Denying Iron Man's abilities is just another way to avoid the argument."? Post scans that prove your points. If I claimed that Iron Man defeated Thor, wouldn't you want scans to prove it, or would you just take my word for it or look it up on a wiki page?

"His durability has enabled him to survive blasts from the Celestials, and fight on until finally being subdued, and a blast from Odin . He has also sat in the core of the Sun, and he is immune to temperature extremes. He does not require air, and has been able to withstand planet-shattering attacks, he also withstood the weight of a score of planets, and much more."

"He is often seen flying at very fast speeds, and has even kept up with the Silver Surfer. He has flown several of time faster than light on multiple occasions"

"he is able to heal from most injuries much faster than a human being could. This healing factor is said to be much stronger than that of the typical Asgardian God"

"Though rarely displayed Thor possess some god like senses. He's able to see as far as the edge of the solar system and track objects traveling faster than the speed of light. He can also hear cries from the other side of the planet."

"Thor also displayed this ability when he created a chasm in Africa between two different areas to prevent the enemies of one side from entering the territory of the other."

"Thor has the ability to affect the weather on a planetary wide scale but often refrains from doing so from the mass damage that it could cause. Thor is able to stop any of the weather conditions that he creates."

"In Earth's atmosphere, he limits himself to the speed of sound. When in space, he travels at faster than light speeds."

"Thor’s hammer has been shown to make either himself or others completely invisible or intangible. This ability also has an opposite effect as it has been shown to disrupt the phasing abilities of beings such asShadowcat and Vision."

"Mjolnir has given Thor the ability to create powerful barriers that have been seen to be impenetrable. This has given Thor the ability to contain powerful explosions."

"Thor has been seen to have the ability to absorb energy blasts from even the most powerful of beings. Thor can store this energy within Mjolnir and direct it back at a given target."

Everything there that you just mentioned is either a super high-end feat or not as good as Gladiator's feats. Sorry.

Sol's hammer falling apart at 2% makes it difficult to argue for it reaching higher amounts of charges. You're forgetting that sol's hammer can't lock onto an individual person standing on Earth. So with the sol's hammer scenario, would be nice if you could follow through and explain exactly how it would go. Again if it is a random, surprise attack, that might be different. If Thor literally stands in front of it and lets Tony blast him that would be different. But arguing that he could successfully use it in a 1v1 fight, where Thor is aware he is fighting Ironman is an almost impossible argument.

It was only 2% finished. He used 150% of the power. He pushed it past it's breaking point and it collapsed. If he had actually finished the dyson sphere then it wouldn't have collapsed. It's that simple.

It would depend on the circumstances of Thor and Iron Man's fight. Is it morals off and blood-lusted with prep? If it is then Tony would teleport to the dyson sphere and destroy Thor while he's on the planet. If it's in character with morals on and with prep, then he'd trick and lure Thor into space (maybe use some drones to distract him and make him think he's fighting the real thing) and then teleport and hit him with the dyson sphere from behind (if he was in character with morals on then he wouldn't destroy the Earth just to win). It all depends on the scenario. If you want to present a scenario, then by all means go for it, but there are a lot of different circumstances that could be at play. Also, I'm pretty sure that there actually is a way for his dyson sphere to individually lock on to things. Think about it, he's on the sun and he was able to destroy, with extreme accuracy, the small little fleet of alien civilizations and the rogue Earth planet from over 90 MILLION miles away. It's not like he just eyeballed it and said, "Well, that little dot looks like Earth, so I guess I'll just shoot over there." His dyson sphere likely has targeting systems and extremely advanced telescopes because you'd be so far away from Earth that you wouldn't be able to accurately see anything. For a reference, this is what Earth looks like from Mars:

Mars is only 33 million miles away from Earth whereas the sun is over 60 million miles away.
Mars is only 33 million miles away from Earth whereas the sun is over 60 million miles away.

You can barely see that, right? Imagine trying to aim and lock onto that, but being over 25 million miles FURTHER away on the sun. Obviously, Stark has some advanced sensors and targeting systems.

It's not an impossible argument because Stark is extremely tactical and smart. He could easily outsmart Thor and hit him with it from a distance. Unless you think Thor is smarter than Tony now?

"Godly physiology" is irrelevant. Asgardians and Olympians are NOT the same. Their genetics are different. That's a fact. It's why they don't age but Asgardians do age. You can't assume that just because something works on one race, it works on any other race. There is absolutely no way to know if the genetic disruptor works on Thor, unless it is actually tried on Thor. This is because even among Asgardians, Thor's genetics are different, and more powerful, due to his mother.

Alright, fair enough. How do you explain Sentry being depowered then? Does Thor have that level of control of his molecules like Sentry does? Why didn't Sentry just rearrange his genetics back into order? I really don't know how you think Thor can just huff the genetic disruptor gas and be unaffected by it when it attacks DNA. Do Thor's powers not come from his genetic make-up? And please don't tell me about how his powers come from Mjolnir. His strength, durability, speed, and control over the elements were things that he possessed before he could even wield Mjolnir. The hammer just heightens these abilities that he already has.

The fact that it worked on Ares, if Ares was not already depowered, is in itself a HIGH END feat that only happened because Ares was a villain.

He wasn't depowered when he worked for Norman, otherwise he wouldn't even be on the team. Tony Stark didn't even use the genetic disruptor on Ares, another villain stole the tech and used it on the Dark Avengers, so using the "he's a villain so all villains lose against good guys" argument doesn't hold up at all.

The statement "Godly physiology" is so broad you can again use that to justify many things. The One Above All is considered a God as well, the celestials are considered "Gods" as well.

Thor and Ares have more in common than Celestials or the OAA, but I agree that it's speculation that it'd work on Thor based solely on the fact that it worked on Ares. If anything, it proves more that it'd work on Hercules more than Thor since Ares and Herc are brothers and from the same pantheon. However, the device works by rearranging and manipulating someone's genetics. Unless Thor doesn't have genes or has shown to be immune to that sort of attack (which he hasn't since Malekith has manipulated his internal organs before) I don't see why it wouldn't work. The whole "he has REALLY godly genetic makeup so it won't work" argument doesn't exactly hold up. The genetic disruptor hasn't shown to struggle working with anybody just because they have unique DNA.

There's the key. 'While he's a safe distance away'. What exactly is that safe distance? That 'safe distance' is exactly why I mentioned that Thor, Ironman, Hulk, among numerous other characters, would be able to escape the Earth before they were damaged by the dark matter accelerator.

It's a planetary doomsday device, so he'd just have to sit on the moon while he does it. All he needs is a drone to hold it on Earth.

Ironman's normal power isn't at planet busting. That's why sol's hammer is considered a high end feat. If you're going to claim that Thor's feats don't count because they are "high end" then sol's hammer doesn't count because it is high end.

First of all, we need to make one thing clear: there is a difference between what Iron Man can do with and without prep. Without prep, you are right, his normal power isn't planet busting. He's a multi-mountain level character. Nowhere near planetary. However, Iron Man's PREP POWER, which is another category completely, obviously is planet busting based on the evidence I just provided. He had over 600 files of planetary destruction weapons. Sol's hammer is one of HUNDREDS of planet busting weapons. So no, it's not a high end prep feat if he's made 600+ other ones.

Again, practically every single character has variances in their durability and power levels. You can't victimize Ironman and act like he is immune from variances in durability and power levels. You want to use any feats possible for Ironman but if someone brings up a Thor feat proving he would tank sol's hammer, you claim it is a "high end feat that should be disregarded". That's being inconsistent.

You can bypass these variances by looking at consistency and middle-end feats. Iron Man's best durability feats are tanking an attack that was so powerful that it literally sunk the entire West Coast of the United States and strikes from Odin force Thor, but those are high end feats. When you examine a low-end feat, like him getting taken out by Captain America or the Winter Soldier, then you can look at his feats that are somewhere in the middle of his high-end and low-end feats. What's in the middle for Iron Man? Tanking multi-mountain busting attacks (which are well above nuclear level). Now look at Thor. A high-end feat would be tanking hits from Skyfather level characters like Odin, Galactus, or Celestials. Skyfather leveled characters are literally universal in power and strength. Now we take a look at low-end feats. Venom once drew blood from punching him, he's struggled fighting Wolverine, staggered by Iron Patriot's punches, etc. So where is the middle ground? Thor busting planets and tanking planetary destructive attacks, evenly fighting other planetary characters like Hulk, Silver Surfer, Hyperion, Sentry, etc. So he's planetary or multi-planetary. If you don't go down the middle then Thor is either too weak to easily beat street levelers or he's so strong that he can hang with Skyfathers. Looking down the middle is more accurate.

Based on consistency, Stark has built over 600 planetary destructive weapons. Sol's hammer is one of hundreds, so I don't see how it's a high-end feat if he created so many. That'd be like if Thor destroyed 600 planets and I told you that was a high end feat when he destroyed a planet from the shockwaves of his blows while fighting Gorr.

You still don't get it. If Stark kills Donald Blake, that is Stark getting help from Odin, because the entire REASON the whole Donald Blake/Thor transformation stuff even existed was because of Odin depowering Thor. You can't give credit to Ironman for something that he needed Odin or someone else's help to carry out. It's the same reason why the Hulkbuster AOU fight and the Civil war fights were not considered 1v1 fights. I mentioned this before but if 'prep' to you includes being able to get help from outside forces, please mention that so we are clear on that. You might consider Ironman getting outside help to be part of 'prep' but technically that is literally Ironman getting outside help. I've already admitted that if Odin help's Ironman they can beat Thor together. The Donald Blake transformation process only exists in the first place because of Odin, and only applies on Earth. It's why there is no Donald Blake in Asgard.

I do get it, but it doesn't matter if Odin depowered Thor. Iron Man would still take advantage of something that actually happened in the comics. That'd be like saying Thor can't beat Iron Man on his own since Odin enchanted his hammer or saying Hulk couldn't beat Iron Man in a 1v1 in World War Hulk because Iron Man's SPIN tech nanites were stolen and messed with. You are just making unnecessary and desperate excuses because for some very weird reason you just can't accept facts that go against your preconceived notions about Thor and Hulk. Even when I provide more and more evidence you still make excuses and nitpick just to "defend Thor and Hulk's honor". It makes you look really biased and non-objective. I mean what about the adamantium sentinels? That's literally existential proof that he can and has beaten them with prep time.

Also, don't even try to say, "he used Pym Particles which isn't his tech" because Pym didn't "invent" or "create" them. He just DISCOVERED them. Anybody can use them. Reed Richards even knows more about Pym Particles than Hank does. I mean that'd be like saying any country that makes nuclear weapons can't do it on their own since the United States discovered the equation for separating atoms to create nuclear fission. Your "1v1" mentality doesn't make any sense and if that's not bad enough, you preach it like it's fact when it's really just your opinion.

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#124 Edited by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

You've gotta be kidding me mate...

So first you didn't tell us that Dr. Doom was the one that gave Stark the idea to use the Asgardian gem to try to stop Thor

Then you didn't tell us about how Gladiators abilities depend on his self confidence/self doubts

Then you didn't tell us about the differences in Ares durability compared to Hercules..

Now.. "In the Marvel Comics series New Avengers (volume 3), Tony Stark hires Shi'ar engineers to build a Dyson sphere around Sun."

Why do you continuously, intentionally hide vital information from your arguments? He needed Shi'ar engineers to build the Dyson sphere for him....

I've done a good enough job defending all of these things while taking your word for them. I've already countered all your arguments for sol's hammer, genetic disruptor, dark matter tech, etc.

If you have anything new to bring to the table, please let us know. But honestly there is no point in bringing up sol's hammer, or the genetic disruptor, or thorbuster suits at this point. And beating Gladiator doesn't prove anything at all. And at this point, if you want to bring up any sort of new tech device from Tony, please provide scans that prove that he himself actually build that tech. We've all been taking your word for sol's hammer when he can't even build that without needing Shi'ar engineers.

You also posted that sol's hammer used a 350% laser on Gladiator and his fleet on Reddit : "Tony hit Gladiator, the Shiar fleet, and the Annihilation wave with a 350% laser." Yet on here you lowered it down to 150%.

You yourself stated "Gladiator himself is even terrified before he's hit.". That is the exact reason that he wasn't able to tank the hit. His powers depend on his confidence/self doubt. If he's scared, he gets much, much weaker.

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#125 Edited by WastelandMan (8819 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Ironman kill Hulk or Thor?

If he REALLY wanted to, yes, given enough time.

can he create any power?

No.

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#126 Edited by Noone1996 (12123 posts) - - Show Bio

@whoisthebest said:

You've gotta be kidding me mate...

Alright, I was going to wait until tomorrow to respond to your frustrating and annoying responses, but I'll just respond to this one now because you are indirectly calling me dishonest. I didn't mention half of this "context" because it's IRRELEVANT. You are stretching and reaching so hard to desperately lowball and shrug off any feats that Stark has and you are nitpicking any little contextual feat. You have NO right to judge and accuse me of being dishonest when you don't even READ the comics for yourself!!!! Instead, you just rely heavily and solely on wikipedia pages and your biased opinions. What credibility do YOU have for you to stand there and talk about how high and mighty you are and how I'm not?

So first you didn't tell us that Dr. Doom was the one that gave Stark the idea to use the Asgardian gem to try to stop Thor

Iron Man already had the Thorbuster armor built BEFORE Doctor Doom and Stark talked. How do you explain that? Nice try though. Lowball some more. Even if Doctor Doom gave him the idea, it wouldn't make a difference or take away from the feat in any way, shape, or form. Your nitpicking is just beyond desperate. It's not enough that he ultimately lost and that he solely relied on an Asgardian gem to make his armor so powerful? You have to try and go a step further to desperately make Stark look bad? You claim you don't hate Iron Man, but that is the furthest thing from the truth that I have ever seen. Everybody sees it, you aren't fooling anyone.

Then you didn't tell us about how Gladiators abilities depend on his self confidence/self doubts

...because it wasn't relevant? Gladiator's confidence levels weren't low when he was attacking Earth. He had all of the major and most powerful empires teamed up and ready to destroy Earth. The Kree, Badoon, Annihilation Wave, Skrulls, etc. He was so confident that their fleets would easily fodderize the Earthlings that he actually sent an apology message to Earth before he started to attack it. Why would he do that if his confidence levels were low? He not only gave them a warning that they were coming to kill them, but he apologized as if he was 100% sure that they'd win. He was THAT confident that they'd destroy Earth. Hilariously enough, the only thing that the Avengers and Illuminati managed to concoct in order to defend against the fleet is a weak little force-field to form around Earth. They didn't send your savior Hulk or Thor to fight them, instead, they just hid behind some weak little field and hoped for the best. A field which Kallark admitted wouldn't have taken long to breach. Luckily for them, Iron Man saved the day.

You act like you just hit the lottery when it comes to debating, but you can't prove that his confidence levels were lower, so stop getting hysterically excited over nothing.

Then you didn't tell us about the differences in Ares durability compared to Hercules..

Wtf are you talking about?! How on Earth does that have any relevance to anything?! Just because I didn't explain something that's irrelevant that makes me dishonest? How much bleach do I have to drink to understand this type of logic? You yourself stated that durability had nothing to do with the genetic disruptor having any effect on a character. I never claimed that they had the same level of durability. I just said that, since they are brothers, and the genetic disruptor worked on Ares, someone with some of the same genetics as Hercules, the genetic disruptor would work on him based on that. Keep desperately nitpicking and prolonging this pointless and ridiculous debate. Clearly you have nothing better to do, so screw it.

Now.. "In the Marvel Comics series New Avengers (volume 3), Tony Stark hires Shi'ar engineers to build a Dyson sphere around Sun." Why do you continuously, intentionally hide vital information from your arguments? He needed Shi'ar engineers to build the Dyson sphere for him....

He hires contractors, not engineers. You act like he didn't know how to do it or he didn't create the design. He made all of the plans and then hired aliens to do the work for him (he didn't hire humans because they've never created anything like that before and wouldn't know wtf they were doing). Now you might be thinking, "Why did he even need to hire anybody at all?" Well it's simple. Time. If you knew the context of the story, which you don't since you can't read comics, you'd know that the Illuminati was traveling to alternate universes to try and solve, figure out, and understand the Incursion. Nice try though, it's getting borderline funny how desperate these lowball attempts are getting lmfao xDDD

The hilarious irony of your disrespectful accusations is the fact that, in the scans that I SHOWED you, of Stark introducing Sol's Hammer to Reed Richards and Black Panther, in the scan itself Stark says he hired Shi'ar contractors. So, I'm not sure how I was trying to "withhold information" or "didn't tell you things" even though that information is in the scan that I posted. Maybe you should either read comics or actually carefully read through my scans that I post so you don't take this long to bring up things like that.

=I've done a good enough job defending all of these things while taking your word for them. I've already countered all your arguments for sol's hammer, genetic disruptor, dark matter tech, etc.

No, you've nitpicked and lowballed with irrelevant drivel.

If you have anything new to bring to the table, please let us know. But honestly there is no point in bringing up sol's hammer, or the genetic disruptor, or thorbuster suits at this point. And beating Gladiator doesn't prove anything at all. And at this point, if you want to bring up any sort of new tech device from Tony, please provide scans that prove that he himself actually build that tech. We've all been taking your word for sol's hammer when he can't even build that without needing Shi'ar engineers.

Hahahaha wow you probably feel so high and mighty right now, don't you? Like you are annihilating me or something. Wow. Ignorance is bliss. It's like when a child thinks that he beat his own dad at arm wrestling. You haven't debunked or proven that ANY of those prep devices are irrelevant. Keep telling yourself that you have though, whatever helps you sleep at night. Lmfao. You haven't even proven that Gladiator had low confidence. You are celebrating way too early. Once again, he didn't need Shi'ar engineers, but I'm sure you'll speculate, baselessly assume, and reference more wikipedia pages to back up your straight up denial of facts just because they conflict with your preconceived notions about your precious Hulk and Thor.

You also posted that sol's hammer used a 350% laser on Gladiator and his fleet on Reddit : "Tony hit Gladiator, the Shiar fleet, and the Annihilation wave with a 350% laser." Yet on here you lowered it down to 150%.

That was my mistake. It was actually 350%. I remembered it wrong. Looking through some of your responses, I see that you are confused about these figures. The dyson sphere itself was only 2% completed, but it was pushed to 350% power levels to do what it did. The difference is that the dyson sphere had 98% more construction and work to be 100% completed, finished, and fully operational. It was only 2% ready/completed. Even at 2% completion and 350% power, it could destroy fleets and a planet all in one blast. I'm sure you will try to lowball and dispute these facts and use wikipedia to back up your biased views, but it won't work. If he had finished the entire dyson sphere it would have been WAY more powerful than what it was and that probably terrifies you.

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#127 Edited by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

Again mate. you yourself provided this on Reddit "Gladiator himself is even terrified before he's hit.".

That is the exact reason that he wasn't able to tank the hit. His powers depend on his confidence/self doubt. If he's scared, he gets much, much weaker.

If Gladiator becomes scared, or terrified, his powers take a MASSIVE nose dive. So beating Gladiator at something doesn't prove that you could beat any other character, especially not when we KNOW that Gladiator was TERRIFIED.

You can't give credit to Ironman for something that wasn't his. If Thor was given weaponry, or tech, making him more powerful, would we claim Thor can do X or Y feat now? If one character uses the infinity gauntlets is it fair to make the feats they performed using the IG, part of that characters feats? It isn't. You can't give Tony the credit for Iron destroyer, Thorbuster, or Godkiller. You can give him credit for building suits that were capable of handling the power from an Asgardian gem, you can give his bleeding edge suit credit for being able to survive the molten Uru forge, but that's pretty much as far as it goes. These are one off handout suits, you can't claim that Ironman's "best durability feats include tanking hits from Odinforce Thor.". Anyone that isn't aware that the durability was all due to the gem could easily be mislead with a comment like that.

Mate, you yourself said Gladiator himself was terrified right before the sol's hammer hit, and now you're claiming that he was 100% confident..you can't be serious here.

It is time and ability. He wouldn't have the time, nor the skills, to build it himself, which is why he needed Shi'ar engineers to build it for him. You do realize Iron man could use his wealth to pay any numerous numbers of mutant villains to work with him, are we now going to give him credit for something that super powered mutant villains are able to do? If he pays Sentry or a few mutants a few billion to get them to fight Hulk, does that too become excused under the guise of "prep"?

Don't claim otherwise now when you yourself stated that Gladiator was terrified before the sol's hammer hit. It took a 350% charged (maximum capacity) sol's hammer hit to take down a Gladiator that was TERRIFIED. And no, 350% is the maximum capacity for sol's hammer, and whether it was fully complete or not wouldn't make a difference in it's power, the only thing that would happen if it was fully completed would be that it would be reusable again instead of breaking down like it did at 2%. I'm not going to bother finding all the scans of that sol's hammer hit considering the fact that you yourself admitted that Gladiator was terrified before the hit. And it is the honest truth, you had absolutely no reason to hide Gladiators powers from us, but you have constantly gone around telling people "If X person or Y object was able to take out Gladiator, then X person or Y object could take down Thor or Hulk too". When you know that isn't the case. Beating Gladiator at something doesn't prove anything about beating another character, especially not if it's a terrified Gladiator. And the fact that Gladiator tanked something that could take out half the solar system (as you yourself told us), it makes it perfectly logical why a terrified Gladiator couldn't handle a sol's hammer hit. But, a terrified Gladiator has far less durability than Thor, and we both already know Thor's durability feats, some of which you have tried to excuse away with the excuse that they are "high end" feats. Even though using that same logic, sol's hammer becomes a "high end" feat as well.

And this whole argument of "average durability" and "average feats" that you bring up is very misleading as well. When Ironman gets hurt by captain america, spiderman, winter soldier, and other characters, you claim that it is PIS, WIS, and CIS and it should be excused. When Thor or Hulk or other characters show high class durability feats, you claim those should be excused. But you never want to excuse any of Ironman's feats, whether it's power or durability. So you've basically been expecting all of us to follow your logic where every character's feats should be disregarded, except Ironman's feats? It doesn't work like that mate. Ironman's armor wasn't able to handle spiderman nor winter soldier. You may not like that, but you can't expect everyone else to forget about those feats just because you didn't want them to happen.

Wow. Regarding Stark Sentinels...

Tony was mind controlled by the Red Skull when he built them.

The Red skulls abilities include... :

  • Mind Blast: ability to place large amounts of information in another's mind.
  • Mind Control: ability to control the minds of others upon mere concentration. This power can allow him to completely shut down several people's minds, making it appear as if time has stopped.
  • Mind Transferal: able to transfer both his mind and powers into other host bodies if his own physical body could be somehow killed.
  • Absorb Information: ability to quickly process and store information, by mental transference.
  • Technopathy: Showcased the ability to commandeer a pair of Stark designed sentinels with his thoughts.

(That is why technopathy is a weakness of Ironman's as well)

So you didn't tell us that Stark was mind controlled by the Red Skull when he built those Sentinels. And you didn't tell us that the Red Skull has all these abilities in addition to just simple mind control.. why?

Btw all the Sentinels can do to the heroes is shrink them and hold them prisoner inside of themselves "The Stark Sentinels have the capability to counter their target's strengths, and bathe them in Pym Particles to shrink them and hold their target prisoner within themselves."

We both know Thor had the ability to teleport to another dimension using Mjolnir, among numerous other things he could have done in that scene, yet he didn't do it. The Red Skull himself is even considered a secondary designer on the Sentinels with a mind controlled Stark being the lead designer. So that's just one more scenario where you withheld some pretty vital information from us. Not only does the Red Skull mind control people, he has the ability to very quickly transport and implant large amounts of information into other peoples minds.

You also didn't tell us that Iron man himself couldn't do anything to stop the Sentinels. "Iron Man organized a last attempt to defeat the Sentinels, but failed and was left the last one standing"

So he was knowledgeable enough to create/input pym particles into these sentinels, but wasn't able to stop them? That wouldn't be likely. It's likely the Red Skull used his own abilities to transfer large amounts of information and knowledge into Starks brain in addition to mind controlling him. If Iron man had knowledge of Pym particles as you say he did, he wouldn't have needed Magneto , the villains, or Hank Pym to take care of the Sentinels.

@noone1996 said:
@whoisthebest said:

You've gotta be kidding me mate...

Alright, I was going to wait until tomorrow to respond to your frustrating and annoying responses, but I'll just respond to this one now because you are indirectly calling me dishonest. I didn't mention half of this "context" because it's IRRELEVANT. You are stretching and reaching so hard to desperately lowball and shrug off any feats that Stark has and you are nitpicking any little contextual feat. You have NO right to judge and accuse me of being dishonest when you don't even READ the comics for yourself!!!! Instead, you just rely heavily and solely on wikipedia pages and your biased opinions. What credibility do YOU have for you to stand there and talk about how high and mighty you are and how I'm not?

So first you didn't tell us that Dr. Doom was the one that gave Stark the idea to use the Asgardian gem to try to stop Thor

Iron Man already had the Thorbuster armor built BEFORE Doctor Doom and Stark talked. How do you explain that? Nice try though. Lowball some more. Even if Doctor Doom gave him the idea, it wouldn't make a difference or take away from the feat in any way, shape, or form. Your nitpicking is just beyond desperate. It's not enough that he ultimately lost and that he solely relied on an Asgardian gem to make his armor so powerful? You have to try and go a step further to desperately make Stark look bad? You claim you don't hate Iron Man, but that is the furthest thing from the truth that I have ever seen. Everybody sees it, you aren't fooling anyone.

Then you didn't tell us about how Gladiators abilities depend on his self confidence/self doubts

...because it wasn't relevant? Gladiator's confidence levels weren't low when he was attacking Earth. He had all of the major and most powerful empires teamed up and ready to destroy Earth. The Kree, Badoon, Annihilation Wave, Skrulls, etc. He was so confident that their fleets would easily fodderize the Earthlings that he actually sent an apology message to Earth before he started to attack it. Why would he do that if his confidence levels were low? He not only gave them a warning that they were coming to kill them, but he apologized as if he was 100% sure that they'd win. He was THAT confident that they'd destroy Earth. Hilariously enough, the only thing that the Avengers and Illuminati managed to concoct in order to defend against the fleet is a weak little force-field to form around Earth. They didn't send your savior Hulk or Thor to fight them, instead, they just hid behind some weak little field and hoped for the best. A field which Kallark admitted wouldn't have taken long to breach. Luckily for them, Iron Man saved the day.

You act like you just hit the lottery when it comes to debating, but you can't prove that his confidence levels were lower, so stop getting hysterically excited over nothing.

Then you didn't tell us about the differences in Ares durability compared to Hercules..

Wtf are you talking about?! How on Earth does that have any relevance to anything?! Just because I didn't explain something that's irrelevant that makes me dishonest? How much bleach do I have to drink to understand this type of logic? You yourself stated that durability had nothing to do with the genetic disruptor having any effect on a character. I never claimed that they had the same level of durability. I just said that, since they are brothers, and the genetic disruptor worked on Ares, someone with some of the same genetics as Hercules, the genetic disruptor would work on him based on that. Keep desperately nitpicking and prolonging this pointless and ridiculous debate. Clearly you have nothing better to do, so screw it.

Now.. "In the Marvel Comics series New Avengers (volume 3), Tony Stark hires Shi'ar engineers to build a Dyson sphere around Sun." Why do you continuously, intentionally hide vital information from your arguments? He needed Shi'ar engineers to build the Dyson sphere for him....

He hires contractors, not engineers. You act like he didn't know how to do it or he didn't create the design. He made all of the plans and then hired aliens to do the work for him (he didn't hire humans because they've never created anything like that before and wouldn't know wtf they were doing). Now you might be thinking, "Why did he even need to hire anybody at all?" Well it's simple. Time. If you knew the context of the story, which you don't since you can't read comics, you'd know that the Illuminati was traveling to alternate universes to try and solve, figure out, and understand the Incursion. Nice try though, it's getting borderline funny how desperate these lowball attempts are getting lmfao xDDD

The hilarious irony of your disrespectful accusations is the fact that, in the scans that I SHOWED you, of Stark introducing Sol's Hammer to Reed Richards and Black Panther, in the scan itself Stark says he hired Shi'ar contractors. So, I'm not sure how I was trying to "withhold information" or "didn't tell you things" even though that information is in the scan that I posted. Maybe you should either read comics or actually carefully read through my scans that I post so you don't take this long to bring up things like that.

=I've done a good enough job defending all of these things while taking your word for them. I've already countered all your arguments for sol's hammer, genetic disruptor, dark matter tech, etc.

No, you've nitpicked and lowballed with irrelevant drivel.

If you have anything new to bring to the table, please let us know. But honestly there is no point in bringing up sol's hammer, or the genetic disruptor, or thorbuster suits at this point. And beating Gladiator doesn't prove anything at all. And at this point, if you want to bring up any sort of new tech device from Tony, please provide scans that prove that he himself actually build that tech. We've all been taking your word for sol's hammer when he can't even build that without needing Shi'ar engineers.

Hahahaha wow you probably feel so high and mighty right now, don't you? Like you are annihilating me or something. Wow. Ignorance is bliss. It's like when a child thinks that he beat his own dad at arm wrestling. You haven't debunked or proven that ANY of those prep devices are irrelevant. Keep telling yourself that you have though, whatever helps you sleep at night. Lmfao. You haven't even proven that Gladiator had low confidence. You are celebrating way too early. Once again, he didn't need Shi'ar engineers, but I'm sure you'll speculate, baselessly assume, and reference more wikipedia pages to back up your straight up denial of facts just because they conflict with your preconceived notions about your precious Hulk and Thor.

You also posted that sol's hammer used a 350% laser on Gladiator and his fleet on Reddit : "Tony hit Gladiator, the Shiar fleet, and the Annihilation wave with a 350% laser." Yet on here you lowered it down to 150%.

That was my mistake. It was actually 350%. I remembered it wrong. Looking through some of your responses, I see that you are confused about these figures. The dyson sphere itself was only 2% completed, but it was pushed to 350% power levels to do what it did. The difference is that the dyson sphere had 98% more construction and work to be 100% completed, finished, and fully operational. It was only 2% ready/completed. Even at 2% completion and 350% power, it could destroy fleets and a planet all in one blast. I'm sure you will try to lowball and dispute these facts and use wikipedia to back up your biased views, but it won't work. If he had finished the entire dyson sphere it would have been WAY more powerful than what it was and that probably terrifies you.

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#128 Edited by Noone1996 (12123 posts) - - Show Bio

@whoisthebest: You have no idea how frustrating it is to debate with someone that doesn't even read the comics he's so confidently talking about. You have no idea how frustrating it is to debate with someone that gets all of their sources from unreliable wikipedia websites that can be edited by anybody. I mean you just claimed that Hank Pym helped defeat the Adamantium Sentinels in AXIS even though he wasn't even there. You just claimed that Red Skull has technopathy just because the Sentinels were designed to fight the Avengers. You even claimed that the Red Skull did most of the work when he made Iron Man create the Adamantium Sentinels. And now you are being a hypocrite by using my own words against me about Gladiator. I thought I wasn't trustworthy? Why are you finally taking my words as fact? I guess you can only use my words against me when it's convenient for you, huh? I'm done with you. Debating you has killed so much of my time and brain cells. You straight up DENY facts that you disagree with and then you use confirmation bias to find wikipedia sources to try and find small insignificant inconsistencies in what I'm saying in a desperate attempt to "prove" that I'm "deceitful" and "overdramatizing" Iron Man's feats. Even when I straight up prove you wrong you just act like it never happened and move on to your next set of irrelevant and time consuming points to overcompensate for your failure. You are a joke. Learn to debate. I've got better things to do than waste my time arguing with a brick wall. I'm done with you.

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#130 Edited by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: I don't see what made you bring that up here but Hulk has been shown to be able to break secondary adamantium and dent true adamantium. The Hulks that did that were nowhere close to world breaker. True adamantium is on ultron's body, and was put into wolverines bones. secondary adamantium is a weaker but more flexible/cheaper form of it, and that type of adamantium has been easily broken by thor and hulk as well as many other characters.

@noone1996 Mate you're twisting my words here. Red Skull having technopathy is one of his known abilities, regardless of what he did or didn't do with the Sentinels. I was just pointing out that he had it.

Iron man obviously did the physical labor part with the Sentinels but again, the Red Skull has the ability to mind control people as well as rapidly input mass amounts of information into people's brains. That means if he mind controlled someone, anyone, he would be able to make that person smarter. We know Stark is smart. But if someone like Red Skull mind controlled him, he would make him even smarter while he was under mind control. The comic kind of hints at this, because Iron man was able to create the Sentinels while he was mind controlled under the Red Skull, but when he was off of the mind control, he was unable to stop his own Sentinels. This is all aside from the fact that all the Sentinels did was put a barrier around the Avengers and shrink them. We both know that Thor could have teleported out of the barrier he was in, he could have done a Godblast to break through it (but that would have been too destructive), among other things. If you realistically look at the abilities of the Sentinels and the abilities of Thor and Hulk, the most you can say is that they would be able to shrink a morals on Thor or Hulk temporarily. The barrier they put up wasn't an endless barrier, it would break down over time. We also know that it didn't take away anyone's abilities, it merely shrinked people.

I'm not being a hypocrite at all mate. I made a mistake blindly trusting your words. You were bragging to all of us about how sol's hammer seemingly took down Gladiator, while also boasting about how "even Gladiator was terrified before he got hit by the hammer". It was your own arrogance and boasting that made your argument fall apart. I can't say for certain if you knew about Gladiators abilities or not while you were telling people about that scan, but his abilities, strength, and durability are literally dependent on his confidence levels. If he's terrified, that actually LOWERS his durability drastically. Especially after we know that Gladiator was terrified in your scan, you can't really use that as an evidence of sol's hammer's power, because Gladiator's abilities can vary so drastically depending on his confidence. And you yourself told us that he was terrified of the hammer before it hit. That would explain why the hammer hit hurt him, or killed him.

The last thing I wanted to point out was that you mentioned your own method of calculating the "average durability" of Ironman, Thor, and other characters. I wanted to point out some inconsistencies you have shown when you calculate that durability.

When it come's to Ironman's worst feats like being hurt by winter soldier or spiderman, you claim those can be disregarded due to PIS/WIS/CIS. When it comes to Thor or Hulk's worst durability feats, you say those should be accepted. When it comes to Thor or Hulk's best durability feats, you say those can be disregarded due to being "high end". But then when it comes to Ironman's best durability feats, those are accepted. And you also give Ironman all the credit for the Thorbuster suit, you claim that Ironman's durability feats include "tanking skyfather level hits" even though you and all of us are well aware that the Asgardian crystal was solely responsible for that feat, Ironman was given the crystal, was given advice by Doom to use it, and we don't even know if Thor was using Odin force amped punches while he was breaking the suit apart. So your debating style basically comes down to making excuses for other characters good feats, making excuses to cover up Ironman's bad feats, while exaggerating/misconstruing Ironman's best feats. You can't expect everyone to accept your belief that PIS/WIS/CIS only applies to Ironman and no other characters. And now your last desperate attempt is to just deny anything found on a Wiki site because they can be "edited by anybody". Mate, the comicvine character pages as well as wikipedia pages actually include references for the info on them. You can go onto an article there, and they have a footnote, if you click the footnote, it takes you to the exact volume number and comic number of the comic where that power or ability was found. You can even read summaries of any specific comic volumes on wikipedia, comicvine, marvel wiki, etc. I haven't even made any claims that are hard to believe. I've brought up well known abilities from Gladiator and Red Skull, and mentioned well known feats from Thor or Hulk. Ironman's had years upon years to build and improve his weaponry, his tech, his suits, and they still aren't able to take down the Hulk. But you want everyone to believe that sol's hammer could do it, even though Hulk has tanked more powerful things. On top of that, you want everyone to believe that sol's hammer was "created in just 2 months, imagine what Ironman could do in a year!", when you don't even take into account all the time Stark would have spent thinking about it, designing it on paper, as well as time taken on testing and any prototypes. You also didn't bring up the fact that he needed Shri'ar engineers to build it.

The bottom line is you're angry about Ironman's power ranking among other characters in Marvel and you have to make up for it by passing off these absurd claims that Iron man could defeat any character as long as he had enough prep time. You constantly mention "Look what Stark did in a few months!" as a way to imply that he could build something ten times as powerful if he had ten times as much time to create something. Hulkbuster is the best he's been able to come up with for the Hulk, and so far, it hasn't worked, even though he's spent years improving his Hulkbuster suits. Even if Iron man had infinite money, infinite time, and infinite prep, he still wouldn't be able to defeat Skyfather characters or Hulk or Thor. Having infinite money is not the same as having infinitely powerful technology. And just because Ironman improves his technology over time, it doesn't mean his technology is infinitely powerful. I'm willing to admit that Thor and Hulk can be beat by stronger characters, and I don't need to make excuses for it, but when it comes to Ironman, you will admit he can be beat by more powerful characters, but then because of your inferiority complex, you have to add in "But with prep, Ironman could beat anyone". No, he actually couldn't. Years of prep hasn't even been enough for him to take down the Hulk.

@noone1996 said:

@whoisthebest: You have no idea how frustrating it is to debate with someone that doesn't even read the comics he's so confidently talking about. You have no idea how frustrating it is to debate with someone that gets all of their sources from unreliable wikipedia websites that can be edited by anybody. I mean you just claimed that Hank Pym helped defeat the Adamantium Sentinels in AXIS even though he wasn't even there. You just claimed that Red Skull has technopathy just because the Sentinels were designed to fight the Avengers. You even claimed that the Red Skull did most of the work when he made Iron Man create the Adamantium Sentinels. And now you are being a hypocrite by using my own words against me about Gladiator. I thought I wasn't trustworthy? Why are you finally taking my words as fact? I guess you can only use my words against me when it's convenient for you, huh? I'm done with you. Debating you has killed so much of my time and brain cells. You straight up DENY facts that you disagree with and then you use confirmation bias to find wikipedia sources to try and find small insignificant inconsistencies in what I'm saying in a desperate attempt to "prove" that I'm "deceitful" and "overdramatizing" Iron Man's feats. Even when I straight up prove you wrong you just act like it never happened and move on to your next set of irrelevant and time consuming points to overcompensate for your failure. You are a joke. Learn to debate. I've got better things to do than waste my time arguing with a brick wall. I'm done with you.

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#132 Posted by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk was able to dent Ultron's true adamantium armor and Thor was able to dent a cylinder of true adamantium by striking it with Mjolnir. It makes sense since the skyfather level characters are able to break apart things stronger than true adamantium. Hulk and Thor level guys can dent them using their stronger strikes. If Thor's hammer strike was able to dent it, that means his stronger attacks would break it. Same goes for a really amped up Hulk. If you mean that normal powered, morals on and in character Thor or Hulk can't break true adamantium, then I agree, they can only dent it then.

@whoisthebest said:

@krleavenger: I don't see what made you bring that up here but Hulk has been shown to be able to break secondary adamantium and dent true adamantium. The Hulks that did that were nowhere close to world breaker. True adamantium is on ultron's body, and was put into wolverines bones. secondary adamantium is a weaker but more flexible/cheaper form of it, and that type of adamantium has been easily broken by thor and hulk as well as many other characters.

Yeah that is true. But Secondary Adamatiun should never be compared to Primary Adamantium. By Feats Thor hits much harder than Hulk and Thor never, and I mean never again dented Primary Adamatiun. Neither did the Hulk. Hulk and Thor did that both only once. They never done that ever again even tho both of them were punching adamantium (primary) a lot in comics books after that feat and they never dented it. So Hulk and THor will never break primary adamatiun. That feat was high end just like Thor damaging a Celestial with the punch or Hulk destroying the Universe with the punch.

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#134 Edited by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: Hulk has variances in his power levels. When Thor dented the true adamantium cylinder, he apparently hit it as hard as he could with a Mjolnir strike and only dented it. Thor punching Ultron doesn't disprove the feat in any way. There's been more than enough proof showing that you don't need to use magic or molecular manipulation to dent or destroy Adamantium. Skyfathers rip vibranium and proto adamantium items in half; shouldn't be hard to believe that Hulk or Thor would be able to dent a weaker form of adamantium (true adamantium) using their stronger strikes. Adamantium/Vibranium can't tank planet busting attacks by the way. Also the durability of an adamantium/vibranium item depends on it's thickness as well. Ultron has an outer shell of true adamantium. Not very thick, which is why Hulk was able to dent it.

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#136 Posted by whoisthebest (2249 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: There's really nothing in my comment you can disagree with unless you want to deny events in the comics.

Thor dented a true adamantium cylinder hitting it as hard as he could with Mjolnir,.. fact

Hulk dented Ultron's true adamantium body.. fact

Skyfathers destroying adamantium/vibranium/cap's shield with their bare hands.. fact

Hulk has variances in power levels.. fact

Thor's Mjolnir strikes are harder than his punches.. fact

You realize Adamantium was used by the military in WW II in the Marvel Universe right? It isn't as destructive or as durable as you are making it out to be.

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#137 Posted by whoistheworst (24 posts) - - Show Bio

i swear im not hostyle or fanboy look:

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drinkng bleech is not cryme

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#138 Posted by THORSON (4973 posts) - - Show Bio

hulk yes THOR no

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#139 Posted by just_sayin (3554 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what would happen:

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#140 Posted by doctor223 (148 posts) - - Show Bio

Now that you think iron man cann't kill them why you still have the question Although in actual he can

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#141 Posted by doctor223 (148 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually iron man is beyond god thor admitted it even writter

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#142 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

ahh Whoisbest, what a great debater. The best of his time

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#143 Posted by MasterSkywalker (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless you're Noone, Iron Man like all characters has clear limits and a clear stance among other characters in regards to power.

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#144 Edited by Awesomefacialhairbros (176 posts) - - Show Bio

@whoisthebest: You make 5 year olds look smart. how did the other guys tolerate you. You seem like that one fanboy who would do anything in his power to prove others wrong. You haven't even posted a single scan of anything. You started this as a question and made it a debate like wtf dude.

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