@battle123axe: Yea i just saw, that garbage is written by Waid and Ewing, who screw up power levels like no other so expect Hulk to appear and job like crazy.

fair enough

Man i am actually not looking forward to Hulks return as much as i hoped i would... Though Amadeus really needs to go away already...

Anyone else dislike the way Pak is rehashing some of his most famous Hulk stories with Chulk? I mean Planet Hulk, World War Hulk... It all seems quite lazy and him trying to live off his glory days. Besides all just being the same stories it's also drastically toned down. I mean Hulk had to fight Surfer and was pulling a planet back together, Chulk fights Unworthy Thor(which was ass btw the fact that Chulk beat him while basically holding back) and soon he will go to Earth to relieve the WWH event all over again, but instead of fighting Inhumans, Avengers, F4, several teams of X-men, Ghost Rider and even Sentry, he will fight the Champions, Alpha flight and Black Panther LOL. I mean a bunch of children and nobodies really. A far cry from a WWH event of any scale.... And don't get me started on the emotional or story level. I actually cared about the characters and story in the original Planet Hulk and onwards, i've been reading this new Planet Hulk and i honestly 100% no joke can't tell you guys what the story is actually about or any of the characters outside of Chulk and Thor that are involved lol.

it's less pak's fault and more marvel's fault, trust me

@battle123axe: I am not sure whose more to blame, but i am definitely not letting Pak off the hook. He finally got his Amadeus story and the way he chooses to end it is staging 2 back to back exact events he did with Banner Hulk. I mean come on?

actually, he's had the chance to do his own amadeus stories for a long time previous, almost 2 years, and was doing just fine and being completely original, but coincidentally when legacy came around all of a sudden amadeus is being blasted off to sakaar. c'mon

Eh the stories where weak IMO, he relied too much on guest stars and sometimes the plot didn't seem like it went anywhere, he also writes Amadeus differently to how he used to years back, he made him unlikable IMO.

Again i am just not happy about the whole thing and i don't know why Waid and Ewing are left in charge with bringing back Banner Hulk...

it depends on the issues you're reading some were bad, a lot were very good if you look at the story. actually if you look at it it's exactly how amadeus would act if his emotions are amped up by the hulk,he was only really unlikeable in the Weapon X crosssover, it's actually building up on a lot of things that greg has been hinting at since the incredible hercules days

I don't think any issue was good to be honest and i would say the sales which are terrible also confirm that. Amadeus is inconsistent, some of the plot lines went nowhere and Pak first made a big deal out of Cho and his Hulk not working the same way as Banner and Hulk as in anger not being their driving force and now it seems anger is all that is suppose to drive him...

Lame imo.

1. the banner issues were quite good, or issue 22 or 23, or issue 9-12, they were all very good. sales don't mean that the story is bad, c'mon.

2. amadeus is very consistent, his anger levels and power levels, as well as rage mode, are clearly defined, where do you see inconsistency

3. it's actually been said multiple times that pride and guilt drive his hulk, and his hulk itself said that it isn't the same as banner's

eh the solicitations say that the fight goes on for like 2-3 issues and that nothing is working to beat Hulk, it even states in the final issue of their fight that Wonder Man is trying to get through to him, implying that they can't beat him physically.

1. Sales don't necessarily mean a comic is bad, but meh i never really liked any issues.

2. The Hulk and the car metaphor is lame and it doesn't make sense to me, considering Banner never had such a thing.

3. Yes but nowadays all that drives him is anger so where are the pride and guilt? How or why do they play into it?

We will see, for some reason i am thinking because Hulk is "immortal" in this issue, they just end up beating him up or destroying him but he keeps coming back so they can't finish him off for good rather than them not being able to beat him. I mean i try to be optimistic, but not with these writers at the helm.

1. ok

2. it really isn't, he's had that metaphor for the longest time and it's quite effective

3. not really, it's been said in multiple issues nowadays that amadeus is heavily affected by it, it's been why he's gotten the shit beat out of him by others, and it's been why his sister left him for multiple issues.

2. Actually i remember the car thing disappearing for quite a few issues and Amadeus raging even almost losing control a few times without us ever seeing Hulk taking the wheel.

3. I don't see it mentioned, but meh...

This whole comic is all over the place, i really don't see Pak keeping things on track.

2. it's always implied, or stated that amadeus is losing control or is going to stop holding back, throughout the series he's directly said it often enough that we know what is happeneing when a fight is getting intense.

3. it most often is.

4. check out my write-up of cho on the daily debater, it should explain some things

2. Yea but again it wasn't shown, the car thing comes and goes for no real reason.

4. Can you link it?

2. it is, when it comes to major events that have an impact on his story when he lets his hulk out, it's always referenced

4 .https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/the-daily-debater-1922968/?page=2#js-message-91

post 69, issue 49

@grekko:

I agree with you in most regards to Pak's TAH. I only really enjoyed the two Banner issues and the Fallen one-shot. Those were packed with emotion and really superb writing. And while the current arch is decent, I must confess that it is a retread of a FAR better story. Not to mention the various plotholes, like how Sakaar came back after it was destroyed (among others), which Pak merely responded that Secret Wars left a lot of doors open, but personally it sounds like lazy writing to me.

Honestly, the whole Amadeus as a Hulk angle is, to a large degree, pandering to an Asian audience and trying to reel in new readers. Which was a failure, I might. Sad to say, I think that, just like Jason Aaron with Jane-Thor, Pak is more concerned with writing his pet creation... even if it means trying to force an agenda, try to shove the character in our faces, pander to a certain demographic, and ignore continuity consistency.

I miss how he used to write Amadeus Cho, back in his gloriously fun Incredible Hercules series. You could relate to, support, and cheer for the character. He didn't need to be a Hulk to be cool or interesting. In fact, he's far less engaging now than he ever was in Incredible Hercules. Unfortunate, but very true.

And I totally get your hesitation about Waid & Ewing writing Hulk/Banner's return.

It's no secret how much I did not enjoy Waid's Indestructible Hulk tenure. The only thing that I really enjoyed of it was his arch/mini-series, Original Sin: Iron Man Vs. Hulk, and that was because I honestly believe that Kieron Gillen (who is an incredible writer, I might add, and someone whom I'd love to see write Hulk/Banner someday, as I feel he knows the character well) was pulling the majority of the weight/writing duties.

Waid's Hulk run was boring, disappointing and utterly meh. Lots of false promises, unexplored potential, continuity errors/consistencies, boring supporting cast, and character regression. He made Banner so petty and selfish, which is totally not Bruce Banner at all. And let's not forget what he did to the Hulk. He regressed him and turned him into a boring, roaring, raging, one-dimensional wrecking ball.

Then there's Al Ewing who failed to take advantage of the vast potential, power and intelligence of the Maestro in Contest of Champions. That whole series was boring and nothing but wasted potential. In the actual game, The Maestro is this multiversal/omniversal conqueror who lays waste to entire universes and timelines, defeating heroes and villains and cosmic beings/abstracts, absorbing and collecting more power with each universe he conquers. Basically, The Maestro was portrayed as he should be (and has yet to be portrayed) in the comics. Hell, even the AVENGERS ACADEMY game, Maestro is portrayed in a similar manner and is a rival/antagonist to Thanos!

And what did Ewing do? He made him incompetent and a mere shadow of that true potential that he is in the actual CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS mobile game. Not to mention I did not care for his portrayal of Joe Fixit in the series.

So, yeah, I totally understand your hesitation and apprehension.

Thankfully, I believe Jim Zub, who is handling a good bit of the story and workload, will ensure that Hulk/Banner will be this truly unstoppable, indestructible, immortal, incredible force in Avengers: No Surrender. All in all, we will have to wait and see, but I'm actually optimistic, if a bit cautious.

oooh

Avengers #680

Still no Hulk action? That's the only thing this Avengers No Surrender crossover has going for it.

I feel like they are overhyping it and way too early at that, Hulk wont fight them until issue 684, so literally 4 issues away... And i am not confident the fight will be entertaining at all considering Waid and Ewing are writing it, never saw a team fight written by them that was even half decent. Even the current fight the Avengers are having is just lame, all over the place, no focus, nothing it's just background noise and all the while they put too much emphasis on inner monologue and narration and not the actual fight itself.

I also hate that they're making Hulk 'the scary monster' again despite the fact that he's saved the world more times than most of the current Avengers roster combined, Bruce has come to terms with him like half a dozen times now, literally at the end of every single run a writer has had since freaking Pak.

He's gonna get good feats, I'm pretty sure of that. But I'm worried he's going to be written badly. I mean who wrote the monologue shit at the end of the book? "He won't die, oh god... What if he can't!!" really Bruce? It's been established god knows how many times that this is probably the case and Bruce has said it himself before...

I agree completely, we have been over this same thing dozens of times already... How many times does Banner need to get his closure with Hulk only for the next writer to reset it for no reason other than they are lazy, out of ideas and that's the only kind of Hulk they know how to write.

The problem is the writers that write these characters don't know the source material as well as they should, that especially goes for Waid who wrote Hulk and Banner yet he fails to completely get either of the characters.

@grekko: Waid drastically improved banner

@kgb725: In what way?

@grekko: Banner was smart, used allies , had a team, set goals for himself and accepted Hulk

@kgb725: Has anyone ever written Banner as not smart? Allies and teams are not really a bragging point. And apart from accepting the Hulk i don't see how his Banner was that good in any way.

@grekko: No but he only uses it for plot most of the time. How are they not when Banner sulks and is a loner ? Waid was writing a smart cocky banner who made jokes and who was glad to let off some steam using the Hulk. To me he was moving the character forward

@kgb725: And it ended nowhere, he got shot, brain damage, bla, bla, bla... You are right though he focused TOO much on Banner which is what everyone criticized him for and something he wanted to change himself but because of the low sales of the comic he got kicked off.

@grekko: It ended with him setting up doc green where Duggan destroyed the hulk family. Even Pak has had some loose threads that went nowhere these last few years.

@kgb725: I am not defending Pak, i think Paks writing is garbage at the moment.

You're kidding, right? If not, this is straight up BS. Waid did nothing for Banner or Hulk. If anything he regressed the character, both of them. He made Banner into a selfish, arrogant, petty super-intelligent scientist and he made Hulk into a growling, raging, destructive, one-dimensional beast.

And don't give me that, "He gave Banner allies, formed a team, set goals for himself, accepted the Hulk".

1) Banner/Hulk have always had allies, he was a founding member of several heroic teams, and created & led several of those teams. The Avengers, the Pantheon, the Warbound, the Defenders, the Incredible Hulks. And unlike those garbage, uninteresting scientist that Waid plagued us with in his run and tried & failed to make us care about, all those teams I mentioned were made of highly memorable characters that one can get behind and care about.

2) Banner has created and done incredible things with his intelligence. Why should he need to set goals or be so petty as to try to compete or compare himself to other highly intelligent heroes? He's outclassed and outdone them on numerous occasions, accomplishing things they could not. Bruce Banner has nothing to prove to anyone, least of all those most regarded as the smartest beings on Earth.

3) Banner and Hulk have long since accepted, or at least tolerated one another numerous times in comics. It has been done. Waid didn't add squat or do anything at all memorable. He did not progress the character in any way. Unless you count the "Banner is the brains, Hulk is the brawn", which is nothing new at all. Why? Cause that's been the standard for the character these last 50+ years! Saying Waid progressed Banner/Hulk is not only a damn lie but laughable at best.

Pretty much. And I agree. I've been saying this for the last 7 years! Ever since Greg Pak initially left after his Heart of the Monster finale, Banner/Hulk have been plagued with mediocre stories done by writers who knew nothing about the character's mythos/lore/history, despite Hulk/Banner having infinite potential.

Let's recap.

Jason Aaron's Incredible Hulk run = Solid first issue, but quickly went downhill and became nothing more than horrific garbage. It became one of, if not the, worst Hulk run ever. The entire series should never have been printed. Horrible, wretched run.

Mark Waid's Indestructible Hulk run = Great potential, but went absolutely nowhere and did nothing. Lots of false promises, lackluster villains, mediocre fights, and a forgettable supporting cast. Plus, he regressed Hulk and Banner's character. Not to mention he was a major a-hole to Hulk fans/readers in more than one instance. All in all, disappointing and fairly meh.

Gerry Duggan's Hulk run = Great story premise and potential, but it never succeeded to live up to its expectations nor did it impress. All it was done for was to eliminate the other Hulks, which I find extremely hypocritical considering we have Amadeus' Hulk and a Hulkverine and a new Red Hulk running around in the MU! The other Hulks, or at least Skaar, should have remained. And damn was that last issue of this arch a MASSIVE disappointment. The Maestro and Gammon angles went nowhere! The whole thing felt dragged out and stretched into 12 issues. And Doc Green? Disappointment. Besides the horrible name and the ridiculous mohawk, he had potential to be a very powerful and intelligent Hulk, but instead he was a pansy and a pushover. Not a true Hulk. Not at all. And the lame humor, poor characterization of the other Hulks, and underwhelming story made this run forgettable. So much potential wasted.

I've already stated my thoughts on Pak's Amadeus-Hulk run in a previous post above, so I won't delve into that again.

It's been a very rough 7-8 years for Hulk fans. I'm hoping it will change. God forbid, we need it to improve.

When the narrator asks that last question, that pretty much confirms Hulk will fight Avengers for a few issues then turn around and save/help them all in the end.

@grekko: To be fair there have been several Marvel stories where Hulk has initially fought the Avengers then helped them out with a bigger threat. But I get your frustration with this repeated trope.

Oh man I hope he's back for real this time

Looks like they're taking Hulk on a more horror/Jason Voorhees route.

Well this issue was anticlimactic. Also i didn't even know Marvel was doing yet another event... Seriously how many events are they gonna shit out in such a small time.

Return to Planet Hulk is quite possibly one of the worst runs with the best potential I’ve ever read.

It’s just been rushed, it’s so easy to tell it’s been rushed, and it’s straight up bad.

@thedailybagel: Yea it was so half assed, it felt like Pak wrote it in a random drunken stupor.

I mean seriously just compare the original to this. Obviously the original would have been better even if Pak gave it his all but we got like a handful of issues that literally BLITZED through the entire story, not a single memorable character, the villain was forgettable crap, his allies i can't even remember a single one of them, the story was so pointless and rushed. Why was even Thor there? Other than Pak needing a guest star and kinda being butthurt that Banner Hulk lost to Thor in Thor Ragnarok so this was his revenge lol.

At this point it even feels like Pak himself can't wait to get rid of Cho Hulk. Actually if you look at the numbers which are piss poor since they keep hovering around low 20k sales and dropping with each issue, i wouldn't be surprised if the editors themselves are rushing Pak to finish his run as quickly as possible.

sooo... on the other hand...

Chulk ate a nuke?

@greko:

Yea it was so half assed, it felt like Pak wrote it in a random drunken stupor.

Half-assed is the exact way I'd describe it, it's like when your 8 years old and get told to write a short story. You think you've written an epic novel but turns out every other line is a different event in the story and it lasts a page in total. It just felt so hurried along and pointless. Even the art sucked, at least get a good artist on board to make the fights look cool if you're just going to blitz through the story. I can't count how many times Amadeus or Thor made a dumb, out of place facial expression.

the story was so pointless . Why was even Thor there? Other than Pak needing a guest star and kinda being butthurt that Banner Hulk lost to Thor in Thor Ragnarok so this was his revenge lol.

The pointless part in particular is what bugged me. I can think of 15 other ways to introduce Amadeus's 'dark Hulk' that make more sense than this. Like just introduce an OP threat on Earth (heck throw in some fan service and make it like Hiro-Kala or an amped up Hulk nemesis or something), have him smack Amadeus sideways, wreck his team and seriously injure... idk, T'challa. Then have the threat do something like make Amadeus watch as he goes to kill his sister, Amadeus isn't strong enough, then boom, dark Hulk. Can be done in two issues and actually makes sense. I mean in the end he [dark hulk] wasn't even f*cking needed, the only reason Amadeus couldn't win is because he refused to kill... Which the Dark Hulk didn't do either, he just punched the warlord in the face and dazed the crap out of him. That's nothing Amadeus couldn't have done on his own.

The Thor part also bugged me because Pak made it seem like if Cho lost they'd all be screwed. No. You have freaking Thor, if Amadeus's loses Thor could've stepped in and fried the Warlord or chopped his head off, the same result as Amadeus winning.

At this point it even feels like Pak himself can't wait to get rid of Cho Hulk. Actually if you look at the numbers which are piss poor since they keep hovering around low 20k sales and dropping with each issue, i wouldn't be surprised if the editors themselves are rushing Pak to finish his run as quickly as possible.

Yeah, Cho has gone down really badly with the fans and Pak himself seems quite bored of it. I like Amadeus but he's much better at being a member of the supporting cast, not the main guy. His quips and humor can only last so long before they get boring. Sure, dedicate an issue or even an entire arc to him, but not a whole book. Pak is so much better at writing Banner and he showed us this even whilst he was writing Totally Awesome Hulk, even a serious Amadeus was better. I feel like even disregarding the fact that it's Amadeus, the stories have just been boring in general. There's been too much waiting for too little payoff.

meh, he already ate a tsar bomb and tbh the explosion wasn't even that big. The clan he was protecting were unharmed and they weren't very far away.

@greko: @battle123axe: @thedailybagel: You guys think they're setting up Cho vs Banner or a hulk team up ?

I mean Banner comes back more or less the exact same time that Cho is doing his own little 'WWH II' so I hope so.

By hope so I mean I hope Banner kicks seven shades of crap out of him.

Also, DC has just released a new character called Damage who is basically their version of Hulk. Two issues in and I'm enjoying it a fair bit, if nothing else because the Art and fights are great so far.

If only Marvel did things like this

You know something is wrong if the only issue ypu ever feel like Amadeus could actually work as Hulk is the first issue of a crossover. Seriously thought Pak put more effort into making Amadeus a memorable character when he played sidekick for Hercules. You know at least back then he had a sort of nemesis. Who has Amadeus faced off with. Random monster, an alien monster hunter who was not really a villain, Foom, who was kinda juat a random monster, obscure villains with no bigger plans than a randon monster and Black Panther in a ripp-off Hulkbuster suit, oh, and random Dark Elves in that scooby doo episode guest starring Jhor. I guess now he fought another hero in Thor.

Also:

this pretty much confirms that Hulk is indeed immortal.

I'd say I was looking forward to Hulk's return wrecking the Avengers but the writers of this event; Waid, Zub and Ewing, don't exactly instill much confidence.

nah, i mean he literally absorbed it