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#1 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, so this is a thing that's been bugging me again lately, and I'm just gonna throw it out there.

I notice that a lot of people, in forums, reviews, solicits, and what have you, keep referring to the "O5" from All-new X-men as though they are seeing their future. But here's the thing, the "O5" in All-new X-men aren't the 616 versions of those characters. By definition, they can't be. They didn't start out in the 616 universe to begin with.

This is where we first meet the All-new X-men:

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Basically, it's the same point in their history as the events that took place in our (the 616) X-men's reality in The X-Men #8from 1963. Except that it's not. This is how that event went down in the 616 version:

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See the difference? The dialogue has been changed. It's not a big difference, and if it's the only thing that distinguishes that version of history from the original, it would mean that these should be basically the same kids. But keep in mind, the scene from All-new X-men #1 takes place before the future/present/616 Beast has any interaction with these kids at all, so there's no explanation for why the discussion they were having would be effected by that; the only explanation that makes sense in the context of the story is that this isn't in the 616 X-men's past at all, even if it is virtually the same.

I'm just pointing out that that it's different at all means that, by definition, these characters are from an alternate version of the X-men's history, ie: an alternate or parallel universe.

One could point out that if all of the characters in the story believe that they are seeing the actual past/future versions of themselves, including the 616 Beast, then of course they would respond accordingly. Thus, the point I'm making needn't really have any impact on how this story goes down, I'm just pointing out that, as readers of the story, it should be recognized that they are obviously not the 616 versions of the characters.

I don't know if this is a thing Bendis intended or not by changing the dialogue. Part of me thinks that he could have done so to leave himself a back door to do whatever he wanted with the characters, without having to worry about it effecting (the established 616 version of) history. This way, readers can see stories with the X-men when they were young, in the present, without writers having to later explain why that experience didn't effect history.

It also gives Bendis an explanation for why this All-new O5 might behave in ways that seem out of character based on Stan Lee's versions of the characters, without having to do any disservice to Lee's canonical version. If it is intentional, it's actually pretty clever.

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#2 Posted by cattlebattle (16078 posts) - - Show Bio

So that pretty much renders the point of them coming to this "future" in the first place kind of moot...right??

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#3 Posted by spinningbirdcake (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

They've come to change a future that isn't theirs. Seems like perfect Bendis logic to me. Have you been reading Age of Ultron at all? He should be banned from dealing with time traveling from now till forever.

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#4 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6732 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not reading this series, but what you say seems to make some sense.

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#5 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

So that pretty much renders the point of them coming to this "future" in the first place kind of moot...right??

depends what you look at the point as being.

X-men have learned about possible futures before, most notably in the Days of Future Past story, and through characters like Rachel, Nimrod, Bishop, etc.. and some characters like X-force or Madrox have even gone to possible futures and effected them. So, in that way, it isn't unprecedented for the X-men to want to change their future(s) if they can.

Beast's original conceit in bringing these characters (who I'm assuming he's assuming are the 616 X-men) to his world may not have worked out the way he had hoped, but it does give the All-new X-men a reason to be different from the original story, sort of like what happened with Star Trek. If this was the intention, to reboot the X-men with some knowledge of how they turn out in the established version of events, then it seems to be achieving it's point.

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#6 Posted by AweSam (7527 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: We still don't know whether it's 616 X-men, or not. You can't leave it to Bendis to be consistent. I always assume it's a parallel universe, but as we know, it is possible to time travel in comics.

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#7 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

They've come to change a future that isn't theirs. Seems like perfect Bendis logic to me. Have you been reading Age of Ultron at all? He should be banned from dealing with time traveling from now till forever.

haha, no, I've been avoiding Age of Ultron like the plague.

But I sort of get the feeling that the upcoming Battle of the Atom is going to deal with this. It looks to have X-men from (ostensibly) the past, present, and future, so I think the point of the story is going to be that the X-men shouldn't time travel; that they ultimately do as much harm as good by time traveling, or something to that effect.

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#8 Posted by cattlebattle (16078 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

So that pretty much renders the point of them coming to this "future" in the first place kind of moot...right??

depends what you look at the point as being.

X-men have learned about possible futures before, most notably in the Days of Future Past story, and through characters like Rachel, Nimrod, Bishop, etc.. and some characters like X-force or Madrox have even gone to possible futures and effected them. So, in that way, it isn't unprecedented for the X-men to want to change their future(s) if they can.

This is a different case though.....where you have to look at the sides of fiction vs what happened in reality. What I mean by this is that Days of the Future Past was indeed suppose to happen...Claremont confirmed it, Its just that he left the book and it never saw fruition. Its likely when certain writers are doing future stories they are probably trying to plant seeds that they hope other writers will follow up......which never happens. This is a sad state of main stream comics, too many different writers doing different things.

Beast's original conceit in bringing these characters (who I'm assuming he's assuming are the 616 X-men) to his world may not have worked out the way he had hoped, but it does give the All-new X-men a reason to be different from the original story, sort of like what happened with Star Trek. If this was the intention, to reboot the X-men with some knowledge of how they turn out in the established version of events, then it seems to be achieving it's point.

I am getting confused here so forgive my ignorance. If they are from a different timeline in the first place there is no way of knowing how there future would have turned out, maybe Jean never becomes the Phoenix in their reality, maybe Beast gets hit with gamma rays or something, you get what I am saying?? Having them come from a different reality altogether kind of ruins the whole idea. In the new Star Trek films, they were from the same timeline....they just changed an event that splintered the timeline into a different reality.....Man, I really want to watch Back to the Future now. :)

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#9 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@awesam said:

@oldnightcrawler: We still don't know whether it's 616 X-men, or not. You can't leave it to Bendis to be consistent. I always assume it's a parallel universe, but as we know, it is possible to time travel in comics.

my point is that we (as readers) do know that they are not, regardless of whether the characters in the story realize it or whether that was Bendis' intention or wasn't.

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#10 Edited by akbogert (3323 posts) - - Show Bio

You make a valid point. Whether it was intentionally inconsistent or not is a different matter. I think it has been implied that this is supposed to be the 616 O5, in which case Bendis messed up.

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#11 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

X-men have learned about possible futures before, most notably in the Days of Future Past story, and through characters like Rachel, Nimrod, Bishop, etc.. and some characters like X-force or Madrox have even gone to possible futures and effected them. So, in that way, it isn't unprecedented for the X-men to want to change their future(s) if they can.

This is a different case though.....where you have to look at the sides of fiction vs what happened in reality. What I mean by this is that Days of the Future Past was indeed suppose to happen...Claremont confirmed it, Its just that he left the book and it never saw fruition. Its likely when certain writers are doing future stories they are probably trying to plant seeds that they hope other writers will follow up......which never happens. This is a sad state of main stream comics, too many different writers doing different things.

But see, what you're talking about there is a meta kind of thing. I'm not talking about how the story was intended by the writer, I'm talking about what actually has happened in the story.

I mean, Claremont may have intended to revisit the DoFP timeline (and he did actually), but even within the original DoFP story the X-men in the present already distinguished their reality from that one by stopping the assassination that happened in the DoFP's history. For that reason alone their future can't be that one, not exactly anyway, because they have different histories. It's more that they keep fighting to prevent a future that's like that one (of which there seem to be many)

Beast's original conceit in bringing these characters (who I'm assuming he's assuming are the 616 X-men) to his world may not have worked out the way he had hoped, but it does give the All-new X-men a reason to be different from the original story, sort of like what happened with Star Trek. If this was the intention, to reboot the X-men with some knowledge of how they turn out in the established version of events, then it seems to be achieving it's point.

I am getting confused here so forgive my ignorance. If they are from a different timeline in the first place there is no way of knowing how there future would have turned out, maybe Jean never becomes the Phoenix in their reality, maybe Beast gets hit with gamma rays or something, you get what I am saying?? Having them come from a different reality altogether kind of ruins the whole idea. In the new Star Trek films, they were from the same timeline....they just changed an event that splintered the timeline into a different reality.....Man, I really want to watch Back to the Future now. :)

Exactly, that's why I'm saying that it's most likely that the characters in the story (both the ones from the past and the ones in the present) simply don't realize that they aren't from a parallel world. So, to the All-new "O5", this does seem to be their future, the way the X-men in DoFP would have reason to believe that Kate Pryde's world would be their future unless they changed their history from hers (which they did).

Maybe the Star Trek analogy wasn't the best, for the reason you've stated (that those realities have a common root), but, like I said, the world of the All-new "O5" seems to be parallel in pretty much every other way, so I think the idea is that it's basically the same, but needn't effect our 616 history/reality.

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#12 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

You make a valid point. Whether it was intentionally inconsistent or not is a different matter. I think it has been implied that this is supposed to be the 616 O5, in which case Bendis messed up.

Well, like I say, the characters in the story seem to think they are from the same universe (and, really, why wouldn't they?), but that doesn't mean that they are. Bendis has established right from the first issue that they are not from the 616, whether that was his intention or it wasn't.

Hopefully, that was his intention, and he just hoped no one would notice before he pulled out some big reveal. But who knows...

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#13 Edited by GonnaRain (758 posts) - - Show Bio

It makes sense.

And yeah, don't even bother with Age of Ultron. The art is not that good, the plot is boring, and since half of the event it became another Wolverine book.

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#14 Edited by cattlebattle (16078 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

But see, what you're talking about there is a meta kind of thing. I'm not talking about how the story was intended by the writer, I'm talking about what actually has happened in the story.

I mean, Claremont may have intended to revisit the DoFP timeline (and he did actually), but even within the original DoFP story the X-men in the present already distinguished their reality from that one by stopping the assassination that happened in the DoFP's history. For that reason alone their future can't be that one, not exactly anyway, because they have different histories. It's more that they keep fighting to prevent a future that's like that one (of which there seem to be many)

Thats what I am getting at though. Even though they stopped the assassination, that future was still supposed to happen, someone else was to kill Senator Kelly. The whole thing that was outlying throughout the X-Men fiction was "the future was unavoidable" Although they were aware of what was going to happen, they couldn't prevent it..."course correction" was a term used if you have ever seen the televison show Lost. The jumbled mess we see in the comics is the different decisions of different writers. Therefore there really was never supposed to be any different realities. Just the inevitable future.

@oldnightcrawler said:

Exactly, that's why I'm saying that it's most likely that the characters in the story (both the ones from the past and the ones in the present) simply don't realize that they aren't from a parallel world. So, to the All-new "O5", this does seem to be their future, the way the X-men in DoFP would have reason to believe that Kate Pryde's world would be their future unless they changed their history from hers (which they did).

Maybe the Star Trek analogy wasn't the best, for the reason you've stated (that those realities have a common root), but, like I said, the world of the All-new "O5" seems to be parallel in pretty much every other way, so I think the idea is that it's basically the same, but needn't effect our 616 history/reality.

I am just curious as to why they would be affected at all if they are from another reality, the whole gimmick of them coming to the future is that they were the same characters.....if they went back to the past altered from the events of the future it would change 616.....much like the Age of Apoaclypse......which is kind of thought they were heading with this whole storyline. If they are just from another reality.....it just like "who cares?" "this effects nothing." They will live on in their reality with knowledge of a possible future in another reality.

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#15 Posted by Osian2 (461 posts) - - Show Bio

You make a good point but I don't think Marvel/Bendis are too concerned with details at this point and are hoping we will just accept it. The X-men act as if the moment the O5 go back Xavier will mindwipe them and that will be the end of it when that reasoning is just stupid. If Xavier mindwipes them then he will see everything they saw including his own death. He would obviously take steps to prevent certain events and thus change the timeline.

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#16 Posted by John Valentine (16467 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure I really understand your point?

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#17 Posted by joshmightbe (27512 posts) - - Show Bio

That's pretty much how time travel has always worked in Marvel. Did the new readers not know this?

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#18 Posted by kidchipotle (15754 posts) - - Show Bio

Man, this is all so head boggling. I don't think Bendis intends for them to be alt universe people, I think he genuinely made them to be the 616 O5 and just "modernized" the dialogue. BUT, if you are indeed correct, that would be cool and I would approve. Gives us reason to keep the alternate versions of the O5 ;-)

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#19 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

Thats what I am getting at though. Even though they stopped the assassination, that future was still supposed to happen, someone else was to kill Senator Kelly. The whole thing that was outlying throughout the X-Men fiction was "the future was unavoidable" Although they were aware of what was going to happen, they couldn't prevent it..."course correction" was a term used if you have ever seen the televison show Lost. The jumbled mess we see in the comics is the different decisions of different writers. Therefore there really was never supposed to be any different realities. Just the inevitable future.

Maybe, but the X-men can't really be the X-men unless they actually think what they do can change the future.

I personally don't believe in fate, or that the future is written in stone, so why would I think characters of fiction would? Possible futures I can believe in, ones that are more probable: definitely; but that what anyone does is simply inevitable? As my partner would say, thinking you're totally in control of your destiny is as delusional as thinking you're not in control of it at all.

Yes, the X-men defeating any one particular threat will still leave almost infinite room for something else to go wrong, but it's just as true that the more threats they defeat, the better the world remains. Basically, if they don't keep trying to stop the future, then the future is already here. And then they're dead in the water anyway.

And for as many alternate futures as the X-men are exposed to, no matter how many of them end in the camps, that alone is proof to them that they exist in a multiverse, meaning that they can't ever know with certainty which future is theirs, or how many other possibilities they are. Maybe people from idyllic futures just don't bother coming back in time.

I am just curious as to why they would be affected at all if they are from another reality, the whole gimmick of them coming to the future is that they were the same characters.....if they went back to the past altered from the events of the future it would change 616.....much like the Age of Apoaclypse......which is kind of thought they were heading with this whole storyline. If they are just from another reality.....it just like "who cares?" "this effects nothing." They will live on in their reality with knowledge of a possible future in another reality.

I suspect that the idea is that these All-new O5 X-men will become a rebooted version of the X-men who have been affected by the 616 future the way that the 616 version was effected by the Days of Future Past, but way earlier in their story. It's a way of giving them a fresh start that neither negates nor entirely ignores the established version of the story, but would still have enough of a common starting point to still stand up as not a complete re-imagining (the way AoA, Ultimate X-men, the cartoons or the movies are).

@osian2 said:

You make a good point but I don't think Marvel/Bendis are too concerned with details at this point and are hoping we will just accept it. The X-men act as if the moment the O5 go back Xavier will mindwipe them and that will be the end of it when that reasoning is just stupid. If Xavier mindwipes them then he will see everything they saw including his own death. He would obviously take steps to prevent certain events and thus change the timeline.

exactly.

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#20 Edited by TheGreyOutcastX (2068 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:
@osian2 said:

You make a good point but I don't think Marvel/Bendis are too concerned with details at this point and are hoping we will just accept it. The X-men act as if the moment the O5 go back Xavier will mindwipe them and that will be the end of it when that reasoning is just stupid. If Xavier mindwipes them then he will see everything they saw including his own death. He would obviously take steps to prevent certain events and thus change the timeline.

exactly.

Logically and again I said LOGICALLY, The 05 would be sent back to the moment Beast plucked them from and then mindwiped, but by one of the JGS's Telepaths most likely Rachel or Psylocke. Why would you logically do that? Simple, it keeps Xavier from doing it thus not screwing up the timeline anymore than it should all the while acting like things never happened. But again, I said logically and Logic in comics is an apply when necessary thing.

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#21 Edited by Eeshaan1685 (3517 posts) - - Show Bio

Well wherever they're from, it sure as hell is time for them to go back...

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#22 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

Logically and again I said LOGICALLY, The 05 would be sent back to the moment Beast plucked them from and then mindwiped, but by one of the JGS's Telepaths most likely Rachel or Psylocke. Why would you logically do that? Simple, it keeps Xavier from doing it thus not screwing up the timeline anymore than it should all the while acting like things never happened. But again, I said logically and Logic in comics is an apply when necessary thing.

Sure, although my point was more that there's no reason it should mess up the timeline in either case, since they're obviously from an alternate reality anyway.

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#23 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2068 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegreyoutcastx said:

Logically and again I said LOGICALLY, The 05 would be sent back to the moment Beast plucked them from and then mindwiped, but by one of the JGS's Telepaths most likely Rachel or Psylocke. Why would you logically do that? Simple, it keeps Xavier from doing it thus not screwing up the timeline anymore than it should all the while acting like things never happened. But again, I said logically and Logic in comics is an apply when necessary thing.

Sure, although my point was more that there's no reason it should mess up the timeline in either case, since they're obviously from an alternate reality anyway.

I was just pointing out the whole "Xavier would know thus change things" would be something that the JGS would or should figure thus they would do it themselves as opposed to letting Xavier do it.

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#24 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegreyoutcastx: oh, yeah, I mean, they all seem to be under the assumption that the O5 are actually from their past, but even if they weren't, why take chances with that kind of thing.

Even if their trip to our time doesn't have any effect on the "O5", it does still serve to establish a new point for people starting fresh.

I'm hot and cold on the series myself, but I've read like almost every X-men story. I can totally see the appeal of it though, especially as a jumping on point that establishes both the original X-men and the current ones, exploring both the current landscape and the key elements of their history. It actually covers a lot of ground for a series in which not much seems to happen.

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#25 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2068 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegreyoutcastx: oh, yeah, I mean, they all seem to be under the assumption that the O5 are actually from their past, but even if they weren't, why take chances with that kind of thing.

Even if their trip to our time doesn't have any effect on the "O5", it does still serve to establish a new point for people starting fresh.

I'm hot and cold on the series myself, but I've read like almost every X-men story. I can totally see the appeal of it though, especially as a jumping on point that establishes both the original X-men and the current ones, exploring both the current landscape and the key elements of their history. It actually covers a lot of ground for a series in which not much seems to happen.

Right.

I think that's the point of ANXM: to draw in new readers and show them whats what in the X-Verse.

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#26 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that's the point of ANXM: to draw in new readers and show them whats what in the X-Verse.

Yeah,which for some reason seems to be a very polarizing idea among long-time readers, but I've been reading X-men for more than 20 years, and I still find it entertaining. I can see how some people would be frustrated with it, especially fans who are more well versed in the lore already, but I also think it's just not really meant for them especially.

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#27 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2068 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegreyoutcastx said:

I think that's the point of ANXM: to draw in new readers and show them whats what in the X-Verse.

Yeah,which for some reason seems to be a very polarizing idea among long-time readers, but I've been reading X-men for more than 20 years, and I still find it entertaining. I can see how some people would be frustrated with it, especially fans who are more well versed in the lore already, but I also think it's just not really meant for them especially.

I think that's why you also have Bendis writing Uncanny. One book focused more for the older readers and the other on the younger/new.

I don't think it's a bad idea given that many people had issues finding a way into X-Men given all the crap that's happened since House of M and all the titles that are under the X-Men banner.

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#28 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that's why you also have Bendis writing Uncanny. One book focused more for the older readers and the other on the younger/new.

I don't think it's a bad idea given that many people had issues finding a way into X-Men given all the crap that's happened since House of M and all the titles that are under the X-Men banner.

I don't think it's a bad idea at all, and I do really like both of those books; but, to be honest, I'm way more into seeing Wood's X-men be the real voice of the X-men than Bendis' Uncanny X-men -as far as the main book for more well-versed fans goes. All-new' is doing a fine job at what it's doing, I think, but a book that's meant as an introduction can really only hold so much appeal. Maybe something really epic will happen in it, but I'm not expecting as much from it. But, like I said, I do think it's a fun introduction, and at least it's entertaining.

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#29 Edited by cattlebattle (16078 posts) - - Show Bio

I suspect that the idea is that these All-new O5 X-men will become a rebooted version of the X-men who have been affected by the 616 future the way that the 616 version was effected by the Days of Future Past, but way earlier in their story. It's a way of giving them a fresh start that neither negates nor entirely ignores the established version of the story, but would still have enough of a common starting point to still stand up as not a complete re-imagining (the way AoA, Ultimate X-men, the cartoons or the movies are).

Its confusing. I had thought they were just going to lead into a reboot with it like you said, but I suppose its just going to effect nothing, it would be good to know what the end game was.

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#30 Posted by Jg0587 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

The nature of time travel is probably going to cause dissenting views so I have a hard time getting in on this debate.

That being said I just realized somethng for the first time... And this is perhaps off topic....

But considering iceman and beast are still alive and at the jean grey school (the adult versions), how come they aren't mad at their adult selves?

Put differently, if iceman and beast (young) both voted to "stay in the current time to fix/change things" (which they did) they obviously aren't happy with the way things turned out.

If they aren't happy with the way things turned out, how come they aren't grilling their "adult selves" for explanations or expressing their unhappiness?

Never thought about that.

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#31 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7702 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, for crying out--it's Bendis. More need not be said than that.

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#32 Edited by chasereis (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: You know I don't buy into this, but here's your chance. Convince me.

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#33 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

Its confusing. I had thought they were just going to lead into a reboot with it like you said, but I suppose its just going to effect nothing, it would be good to know what the end game was.

There's really only two inevitable alternatives I can see for this book:

  1. The "O5" return to their timeline and the book continues on focusing on the X-men in the present, who have gained a new perspective for having met them, or
  2. The "O5" return to their timeline and the book follows them there as a soft reboot that was started with a trip to a possible future.

@oldnightcrawler: You know I don't buy into this, but here's your chance. Convince me.

I feel I've made my case with this one. I don't really understand what part of the proof I've presented you don't understand, since there's nothing from the actual text that proves otherwise.

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#34 Posted by chasereis (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I just don't see any concrete compelling proof. Just based on the variance in the speech is not enough to hold water to me based on the fact most writers are not willing to exactly replicate a previous authors work in order to create true continuity. Bendis was likely making it more relevant to modern (younger) readers and did not intend to create this "alternate universe" in its wake. Thus is it not compelling evidence, bra. Keep working on it.

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#35 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I just don't see any concrete compelling proof. Just based on the variance in the speech is not enough to hold water to me based on the fact most writers are not willing to exactly replicate a previous authors work in order to create true continuity. Bendis was likely making it more relevant to modern (younger) readers and did not intend to create this "alternate universe" in its wake. Thus is it not compelling evidence, bra. Keep working on it.

And I'm just saying that even just changing the dialogue constitutes, by definition, an alternate version of the story. If you don't want to believe that, I'm not going to try to make you.

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#36 Posted by chasereis (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: OMG, truly? I give a genuine opportunity to convince me and all I get is a "BAMF!" and the smell of brimstone? I thought you really believed this and I was willing to hear your entire thought process. Oh well you can't say I didn't try.

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#37 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (4700 posts) - - Show Bio

It sounds boring but I think the most likely explanation (aside for Bendis' habits) is that they wanted to update the visuals and the dialogue in the scene, as the speech patterns used in that time frame were more formal than what is used nowadays - they probably tweaked it to be a bit more relevant to the current story line, as well. I did appreciate that they kept the suits consistent, but that has more to do with the art than the script - and there was still a color swap with Hank and Bobby's original suits, anyway.

I doubt Bendis and Co. care to go into the details of time travel, but it always seemed to me that the nature of time travel meant that trying to change the past or the future always created an alternate timeline. It happened with Rachel, Cable, Bishop and the A.o.A. so it seemed to me that the 05 we are currently dealing with were obviously not from the 616 universe.

I think Marvel has been roughly consistent with indicating that only a very few individuals have the power to rewrite their personal reality/timeline via time travel.

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#38 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (4700 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, for crying out--it's Bendis. More need not be said than that.

LOL. I kind of agree.

@jg0587 said:

The nature of time travel is probably going to cause dissenting views so I have a hard time getting in on this debate.

That being said I just realized somethng for the first time... And this is perhaps off topic....

But considering iceman and beast are still alive and at the jean grey school (the adult versions), how come they aren't mad at their adult selves?

Put differently, if iceman and beast (young) both voted to "stay in the current time to fix/change things" (which they did) they obviously aren't happy with the way things turned out.

If they aren't happy with the way things turned out, how come they aren't grilling their "adult selves" for explanations or expressing their unhappiness?

Never thought about that.

IMHO This feeling of 'Missed Opportunities' is a trait Bendis developed with the Avengers and the X-Men: Bendis tends to focus on his major storyline idea to the exclusion of developing subplots or minor characters. His script tends to have everyone react to one event with miniature character moments between background characters showing that he is aware of the history of the M.U., to some degree, but not really focused on using every spare moment to develop a character, move a subplot forward or set up future stories. Claremont used to be able to juggle these various stories very easily, so his books tended to feel more fluid.

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#39 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: OMG, truly? I give a genuine opportunity to convince me and all I get is a "BAMF!" and the smell of brimstone? I thought you really believed this and I was willing to hear your entire thought process. Oh well you can't say I didn't try.

haha! well, I feel like I've tried to explain my point about this to you. I know you don't see it the way I do, but I also don't think it's important enough to argue further about. It's not as if you've found any flaw in my logic to use as an argument against my point. You just don't accept the evidence I've presented as proof of the logical conclusion I've drawn from it. To me it's definitively self evident, so I guess I just really don't understand why you have a problem accepting it.

I doubt Bendis and Co. care to go into the details of time travel, but it always seemed to me that the nature of time travel meant that trying to change the past or the future always created an alternate timeline. It happened with Rachel, Cable, Bishop and the A.o.A. so it seemed to me that the 05 we are currently dealing with were obviously not from the 616 universe.

yeah, but that's not what I'm getting at.. my point was more that the "O5" in All-new X-men #1 were never the same X-men as the ones in the X-men #8, which is the 616 version of those events. They are parallel but alternate before they even meet the Beast from the future/present.

IMHO This feeling of 'Missed Opportunities' is a trait Bendis developed with the Avengers and the X-Men: Bendis tends to focus on his major storyline idea to the exclusion of developing subplots or minor characters. His script tends to have everyone react to one event with miniature character moments between background characters showing that he is aware of the history of the M.U., to some degree, but not really focused on using every spare moment to develop a character, move a subplot forward or set up future stories. Claremont used to be able to juggle these various stories very easily, so his books tended to feel more fluid.

I like Bendis' stuff well enough, but I admit this is a trait I've noticed too. In his defense, it does seem like he's tried to balance far more characters within larger stories than Claremont generally ever did, but that certainly doesn't make the criticism any less valid.

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#40 Posted by chasereis (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: "so I guess I just really don't understand why you have a problem accepting it." Answer: I don't take this for granted. Until it is explicitly implied by recurring themes, I have to accept it at face value and not read into it beyond what the author has stated. However if you want to digress completely on it with me, so be it. I'll keep a ear open should you want to change your mind.

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#41 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (4700 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I think we agree as to where the O5 came from. I brought up Rachel and other time travelers precisely because they never went back to their own pasts to begin with i.e. Beast didn't go back to the 616 Original 5's era - his very action immediately sent him to an alternate but parallel timeline because it is extremely difficult, almost impossible, to go back in time within your own timeline. The alternate timeline wasn't created when he made contact with him or took them into the future - it was always there, and he had always been dealing with the 617 or 618, or whatever number you want to use, version of himself and co.

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#42 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I think we agree as to where the O5 came from. I brought up Rachel and other time travelers precisely because they never went back to their own pasts to begin with i.e. Beast didn't go back to the 616 Original 5's era - his very action immediately sent him to an alternate but parallel timeline because it is extremely difficult, almost impossible, to go back in time within your own timeline. The alternate timeline wasn't created when he made contact with him or took them into the future - it was always there, and he had always been dealing with the 617 or 618, or whatever number you want to use, version of himself and co.

okay, that's what I thought you were saying, but I was a little confused by your other post.

@oldnightcrawler: "so I guess I just really don't understand why you have a problem accepting it." Answer: I don't take this for granted. Until it is explicitly implied by recurring themes, I have to accept it at face value and not read into it beyond what the author has stated.

see, that's what I feel like I'm doing.

This is why I think it's not worth trying to convince you; to my mind, you're obviously working under the pretext of some other definition of what a parallel universe, or an alternate history, or whatever actually is. That I don't even understand what it is you don't agree with is why I can't argue it.

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#43 Posted by chasereis (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I know very well my armchair temporal mechanics, thanks. Where specifically has it stated the young xmen are from an alternate past? Issue and page. IN TEXT, it doesn't anything unless it is IN TEXT. Give me that and I will sing your praises telling everyone you were right and I am wrong. All I'm saying.

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#44 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I know very well my armchair temporal mechanics, thanks. Where specifically has it stated the young xmen are from an alternate past? Issue and page. IN TEXT, it doesn't anything unless it is IN TEXT. Give me that and I will sing your praises telling everyone you were right and I am wrong. All I'm saying.

I've already provided the text.

That the dialogue is altered from the original version signifies, by definition, an alternate version of events already established as the X-men's history.

There has been no text whatsoever to imply that this is some sort of retroactive continuity change, nor any text that would begin to explain it as such. My point is based on the text, I still don't know what yours is based on.

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#45 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

bringing this back to the future for you continuity fans..

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#46 Posted by slimlim (310 posts) - - Show Bio

Pardon me if this has been mentioned already (i admit not reading all the posts here)...

But how does this explain Marvel NOW Cyclops disappearing when Teen Cyclops was "killed" in Battle of the Atom #1?
I can understand that maybe midway through BOTA, something happened to divert the paths and thus cause an alternate reality from which the time travelling O5 are from. Possibly when whoever "rigged" time travel so that the O5 couldnt go back.

Sigh... this is my biggest beef with BOTA. i was really hoping it would help settle once and for all all the inconsistencies about the rules of time travel in the Marvel Universe. One can only hope that they are still building towards that.

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#47 Posted by AllStarSuperman (39097 posts) - - Show Bio

Time Ripples broski, remember in flashpoint when Barry says he only went back enough to save his mom and that superman's origin should have changed? well, that's what's up here.

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#48 Edited by JonSmith (4529 posts) - - Show Bio

I called that from the get go, simply because pulling these guys into the future at all effected their timeline, splitting it off from 616 because OUR X-Men never traveled into the future and met their 2013 selves. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. Instead, because of Age of Ultron, we get this:

@slimlim said:

Pardon me if this has been mentioned already (i admit not reading all the posts here)...

But how does this explain Marvel NOW Cyclops disappearing when Teen Cyclops was "killed" in Battle of the Atom #1?

As has been mentioned all over the Marvel Universe, time is broken. There ARE no alternate realities anymore. No parallel worlds, it's all smashing together because they f***ed up time, and now time's decided to return the favor. Hence why over in Superior Spider-Man, Alchemax has been formed, and all signs point to 616 going all 2099, and why that future was dissolving prior to that: All of that shouldn't happen, Cyclops vanishing because past Cyclops died SHOULDN'T HAPPEN, they SHOULD be from a parallel timeline or world, meaning whatever happens to people from other timelines ONLY EFFECTS those timelines, nothing from 616 should effect those futures or vice versa.

But because time's messed up, the O5's world has been dragged into 616, just like 2099, because time is no longer sweating the details: Usually, these details would either be worked out somehow, glossed over, or tossed into alternate worlds. So past Cyclops dies? So long, modern day Cyclops. Alchemax isn't formed in 616? Toodles, 2099.

Essentially, @oldnightcrawler, prior to Age of Ultron, you would have been right. I wish you still were. But apparently, you're not, because 616 screwed the chronal pooch, so to speak, and threw past, present, and future into one horrifying mish mash of historical nonsense.

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#49 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimlim said:

Pardon me if this has been mentioned already (i admit not reading all the posts here)...

But how does this explain Marvel NOW Cyclops disappearing when Teen Cyclops was "killed" in Battle of the Atom #1?

it doesn't.

There has yet to be any explanation for that. It seems to have been one of those things that was meant to be self explanatory (as it's taken by the characters), yet is contradictory to what we've seen so far (as readers).

As for why the "O5" can't go back to their time, it could have something to do with time being all screwed up from Age of Ultron, but I haven't read any of that. Or maybe they're from a world that was destroyed by the Illuminati in one of the incursions in New Avengers. But, as of right now, there hasn't been any proper explanation. Which is fine, for me, since the explanation will probably be contrived and -worse- boring anyway.

I'm just gonna enjoy reading about the the X-men as teens in the present* and not worry about it.

(*Or not, depending on the story.)

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#50 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5695 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith said:

Essentially, @oldnightcrawler, prior to Age of Ultron, you would have been right. I wish you still were. But apparently, you're not, because 616 screwed the chronal pooch, so to speak, and threw past, present, and future into one horrifying mish mash of historical nonsense.

Wait, so does that mean that continuity doesn't matter any more?

FINALLY!! :v

now we can stop bothering with all those boring stories that only exist to make sense of it, not worry about how a story fits, and just enjoy it on it's own merits!

*sniff* I never thought I'd live to see this glorious day..