Who is the most suitable host for the Phoenix force?

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Wesat

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Hypothetically what if Jean Grey never existed...

Which mutant would be the best host for the PF?

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Koays

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Rachel -_-

Seriously.....the Phoenix is so overused and beaten down, that no one has patience to even think about who it coulda, woulda, shoulda ended up with.

The concept was beaten to death and now Jason Aaron is dry humping the corpse.....

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PyroFN

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As koays says, Rachel Summers. She has a fundamental connection based around Jean Grey that eventually Rachel made her own.

For a different answer, I would say Hope Summers, yet her relationship is fundamentally similar to Rachel’s starting out. She is a child of the Phoenix essentially, so she would be growing with it.

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Thunderscream

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@pyrofn: @koays: y'all seen the solicits for Avengers: Enter the Phoenix?

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Koays

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PyroFN

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christianrapper

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Spiderman

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One_TruePhoenix

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Spiderman

while Spidey isn't a Mutant, I like the idea of something TOTALLY different for a change.

For me, I'd pick Gambit.

here's why:

FIRST OF ALL, HE HAS THE POWERS THE REAL PHOENIX FROM MYTHOLOGY HAS. Not just fire, but straight kinetic energy. I've researched some on kinetic energy and like, that's what the Phoenix's power OUGHT to be.

Secondly, the Phoenix is a symbol of transformation. that would be an excellent fit for Gambit's character. someone with such a difficult backgroud and upbringing, that he has a skewd idea of righ and wrong to a degree. But deep down, his heart is pure, and the Phoenix is attracted to that. Remy tho has to learn a lot, and transform as a person. if he were Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, itd make so much more sense, for the cosmic entity to taste his good and evil sides.

Third, the Phoenix would be such a BADASS if it were embodied by someone like Gambit. not just by throwing "infinite cosmic power" around, but also personality and style wise. Also, there's more opportunities I feel for storytelling if Gambit were the Phoenix. His shady dealings could go astral and cosmic level. And as he learns his power as Phoenix, and the Phoenix learns certain lessons it never could as a raw cosmic being, they would complement each other while on wild supernatural adventures.

to me, the Phoenix as a hero, should be someone that's very not perfect, and has to constantly improve as a person. that plays on the Phoenix's actual mythos better to my than Jean's story. Even if somehow, the story is rewritten where Gambit starts off as Dark Phoenix, then his humanity overrides the corrupted cosmic being's own will, and he starts taking control when he realizes the damage he's causing. Esp if it hurt someone he loves.

i'm ranting again!

Anyway, my thoughts, my ideas of a better Phoenix host :)

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christianrapper

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@one_truephoenix: you took that way too seriously. You don’t have to be a mutant to host the Phoenix. i was not being serious but I would not mind seeing spiderman hosting the Phoenix. It would be something different. when it shows up in x men stories you can tell what is going to happen before they even finish the story arc. They need to make the Phoenix force special again. It pops up way too much. I would love to see storm host it...if they don’t follow the same stupid pattern of it eventually corrupting her. They also need a compelling reason for it to show up. The last stories have been just o.k. imo.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@one_truephoenix: you took that way too seriously. You don’t have to be a mutant to host the Phoenix. i was not being serious but I would not mind seeing spiderman hosting the Phoenix. It would be something different. when it shows up in x men stories you can tell what is going to happen before they even finish the story arc. They need to make the Phoenix force special again. It pops up way too much. I would love to see storm host it...if they don’t follow the same stupid pattern of it eventually corrupting her. They also need a compelling reason for it to show up. The last stories have been just o.k. imo.

lol I usually never comment that much on anything. It was last night 3am after driving myself insane with hours of searching for someone, then coming here to write a thread of my own where I ranted out of frustration.

ur right to correct me Phoenix can take on other types of hosts, and honestly, that should make sense. But yes something radically different is what the Phoenix narrative needs, as well as retconning the whole "one true host" thing. toss that out, remove all its limitations with hosts, lets restructure how the Phoenix work so its more diverse, versatile, and open opportunity for more types of stories and adventures :)

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HopesummersFORtheFUTURE

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jean grey...........then maybe hope hahahahah ha ha

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One_TruePhoenix

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jean grey...........then maybe hope hahahahah ha ha

I'd love to see something different and unique from the same we've already gotten. I mentioned in a post that, the mantle of Phoenix needs serious updating (and retconning), and most importantly, remove what hinders and limit it as an entity, character and its story.

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HopesummersFORtheFUTURE

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@hopesummersforthefuture said:

jean grey...........then maybe hope hahahahah ha ha

I'd love to see something different and unique from the same we've already gotten. I mentioned in a post that, the mantle of Phoenix needs serious updating (and retconning), and most importantly, remove what hinders and limit it as an entity, character and its story.

plus u get cool fire powers LOL

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One_TruePhoenix

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@one_truephoenix said:
@hopesummersforthefuture said:

jean grey...........then maybe hope hahahahah ha ha

I'd love to see something different and unique from the same we've already gotten. I mentioned in a post that, the mantle of Phoenix needs serious updating (and retconning), and most importantly, remove what hinders and limit it as an entity, character and its story.

plus u get cool fire powers LOL

Lol 😆 I suppose. Bion I'd like to see past just plain fire. I'm gonna attempt a fanfic and some art, with the hopes of opening some minds and ides, and most importantly, find that dude again.

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marvelfan1992

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the turkey in my oven

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christianrapper

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@one_truephoenix: actually your gambit idea is pretty good. That would be awesome. Gambit is already pretty powerful. He had to place inhibitors on himself because he is scared of his powers. His powers combined with the Phoenix world be awesome. if they did that they should write a pretty good story. I don’t want to see the usual. The Phoenix force shows up and makes gambit powerful. The Phoenix turns gambit evil. The X- Men fight gambit and he finds some inner strength and rejects the Phoenix force somehow. The Phoenix force stories are very repetitive because it’s so powerful.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@one_truephoenix: actually your gambit idea is pretty good. That would be awesome. Gambit is already pretty powerful. He had to place inhibitors on himself because he is scared of his powers. His powers combined with the Phoenix world be awesome. if they did that they should write a pretty good story. I don’t want to see the usual. The Phoenix force shows up and makes gambit powerful. The Phoenix turns gambit evil. The X- Men fight gambit and he finds some inner strength and rejects the Phoenix force somehow. The Phoenix force stories are very repetitive because it’s so powerful.

Thanks bro! ^_^

And you make a good point about Gambit and his fear of his powers, that could/should also play as a factor for him as Phoenix. The whole point I'm bringing across is, the reason I feel the Phoenix Force's narrative is so repetitive, is the writers don't allow for enough experimentation to be done with it. Remove all that limit its narrative, and we'd see much better Phoenix stories. It being extremely powerful, to me isn't the problem. It's how its limited as a character, that's the problem.

I'm gonna (attempt to) write some fanfictions (and create fan art) about the Phoenix as Gambit, to enlighten everyone on the posibilities. And show how to be versatile and have fun with the Phoenix, using a totally different host. AND... I want to take advantage of Gambit's kinetic abilities as something the Phoenix itself discovers, as a new, infinite power source, and show new ways the Phoenix can be used :D

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cattlebattle

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I am of the opinion that sticks with the original concept of the Phoenix, in that it was just Jean's codename and the vast telekinetic powers were just the full extent of her powers. Then Rachel was able to tap into it because of her relation to Jean. All the Phoenix Force stuff was just a poor retcon to explain away Jean not being dead. I always thought it was sort of dumb.

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One_TruePhoenix

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I am of the opinion that sticks with the original concept of the Phoenix, in that it was just Jean's codename and the vast telekinetic powers were just the full extent of her powers. Then Rachel was able to tap into it because of her relation to Jean. All the Phoenix Force stuff was just a poor retcon to explain away Jean not being dead. I always thought it was sort of dumb.

To me, retconning it to being a cosmic force wasn't the problem, it was how they handled it onward.

i like the idea of a superhero title being "Phoenix", too bad it's never been handled all that well since Claremont's run :(

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cattlebattle

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@cattlebattle said:

I am of the opinion that sticks with the original concept of the Phoenix, in that it was just Jean's codename and the vast telekinetic powers were just the full extent of her powers. Then Rachel was able to tap into it because of her relation to Jean. All the Phoenix Force stuff was just a poor retcon to explain away Jean not being dead. I always thought it was sort of dumb.

To me, retconning it to being a cosmic force wasn't the problem, it was how they handled it onward.

i like the idea of a superhero title being "Phoenix", too bad it's never been handled all that well since Claremont's run :(

It was a problem immediately. It totally invalidated the entire Dark Phoenix Saga, arguably the biggest, most important, X-Men story of all time and the stories that proceeded it.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@cattlebattle: to me, it still goes back to how it was handled.

The thing about the Phoenix replicating Jean was the main thing that was dumb, and... if it were written as A., possession of the cosmic force, BUT coupled with B., Jean being corrupted by too much power, but still link it to the possession, it would have made sense. That way shifting the blame to the cosmic being can still happen, without removing the weight of Jean turning "evil".

And I STILL stand by the fact that, they needed to distance Jean from the actions of the Phoenix, by reworking it as something similar to "The Force" in Star Wars, which would have opened much more opportunity of experimentation and versatility from early on. Then the problem of the Phoenix being attached to Jean with very narrow room for narrative creativity, and constant repetition, ALSO wouldn't have happened.

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marvelfan1992

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One_TruePhoenix

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cattlebattle

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@cattlebattle: to me, it still goes back to how it was handled.

The thing about the Phoenix replicating Jean was the main thing that was dumb, and... if it were written as A., possession of the cosmic force, BUT coupled with B., Jean being corrupted by too much power, but still link it to the possession, it would have made sense. That way shifting the blame to the cosmic being can still happen, without removing the weight of Jean turning "evil".

And I STILL stand by the fact that, they needed to distance Jean from the actions of the Phoenix, by reworking it as something similar to "The Force" in Star Wars, which would have opened much more opportunity of experimentation and versatility from early on. Then the problem of the Phoenix being attached to Jean with very narrow room for narrative creativity, and constant repetition, ALSO wouldn't have happened.

Yeah, I know your deeply invested in this, and write all sorts of fanfiction about it, so, I am not likely to change your mind here, lol.

The original Dark Phoenix story was just about Jean advancing with her power too quickly, having her brain messed with, and losing control as a result of it. The Phoenix Force was made up as a device to explain how Jean would have survived it, then, was played with a little bit with Rachel so Claremont could tell more cosmic stories. And since then it's always used as a looming threat to threaten the X-Men books every year or so. It's not particularly and interesting concept, nor is it necessary seeing as the X-men have such a deep mythos otherwise.

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PyroFN

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@one_truephoenix said:

@cattlebattle: to me, it still goes back to how it was handled.

The thing about the Phoenix replicating Jean was the main thing that was dumb, and... if it were written as A., possession of the cosmic force, BUT coupled with B., Jean being corrupted by too much power, but still link it to the possession, it would have made sense. That way shifting the blame to the cosmic being can still happen, without removing the weight of Jean turning "evil".

And I STILL stand by the fact that, they needed to distance Jean from the actions of the Phoenix, by reworking it as something similar to "The Force" in Star Wars, which would have opened much more opportunity of experimentation and versatility from early on. Then the problem of the Phoenix being attached to Jean with very narrow room for narrative creativity, and constant repetition, ALSO wouldn't have happened.

Yeah, I know your deeply invested in this, and write all sorts of fanfiction about it, so, I am not likely to change your mind here, lol.

The original Dark Phoenix story was just about Jean advancing with her power too quickly, having her brain messed with, and losing control as a result of it. The Phoenix Force was made up as a device to explain how Jean would have survived it, then, was played with a little bit with Rachel so Claremont could tell more cosmic stories. And since then it's always used as a looming threat to threaten the X-Men books every year or so. It's not particularly and interesting concept, nor is it necessary seeing as the X-men have such a deep mythos otherwise.

The implication was that the solar flare supposedly amped her powers the way the Fantastic Four got powers, right?

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HAWK2916

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I agree with @cattlebattle. Just stick to the original concept all the Force entity stuff was and is the problem. Xmen is not Star Wars so there should be no attempts to make it that way

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@pyrofn said:

The implication was that the solar flare supposedly amped her powers the way the Fantastic Four got powers, right?

I've read it several times, but, what happened isn't exactly at the forefront of my memory. I believe the Professor installed "blocks" in Jean's psyche so she could unlock her power gradually as she got older and leveled up. When they were heading back to earth I thought it was Jean protecting the shuttle from earth's atmosphere, but as you say it, it was some sort of solar flare, anyways, the strain from the event broke the blocks and her full power was unleashed before she was comfortable with it. Then she called herself Phoenix because she was assumed to be dead and she was "reborn" in a way and decided to use her freakishly powerful tk abilities to manifest a bird avatar to go along with her name. Much in the same way a person who calls themself "Tiger man" would likely manifest a tiger avatar....not because a space magic bird force.

There is an issue where Moira is studying Jean when she is staying on Muir Island when the X-men are presumed dead before the Proteus arc where Moira has expository dialogue explaining what exactly happened to jean and how she became the Phoenix in pretty good detail. I forget what issue it is.

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One_TruePhoenix

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Yeah, I know your deeply invested in this, and write all sorts of fanfiction about it, so, I am not likely to change your mind here, lol.

The original Dark Phoenix story was just about Jean advancing with her power too quickly, having her brain messed with, and losing control as a result of it. The Phoenix Force was made up as a device to explain how Jean would have survived it, then, was played with a little bit with Rachel so Claremont could tell more cosmic stories. And since then it's always used as a looming threat to threaten the X-Men books every year or so. It's not particularly and interesting concept, nor is it necessary seeing as the X-men have such a deep mythos otherwise.

LOL I've not written ONE fanfic yet about this, Mr. Condescending LOL

I'm not trying to change your mind at all, I'm just sharing my thoughts to those whom are something called "open minded".

I don't care about the original direction of Phoenix/Dark Phoenix, as... I find it hypocritical when some who want to hang onto The Beyonder still having access to his pre-retcon powers are called out, by the same ppl who want to still hang on to Claremont's original narrative of the Phoenix. I'm looking at where the Phoenix is now, and talking about its future from this point forward.

@hawk2916 said:

I agree with @cattlebattle. Just stick to the original concept all the Force entity stuff was and is the problem. Xmen is not Star Wars so there should be no attempts to make it that way

I never said that X-Men needed to be Star Wars. I said that the Phoenix Force needed to be reinterpreted into something SIMILAR to the Force, not a "phenomenal cosmic being" tied up to ONE single individual, which makes no fucking sense. I've already mentioned what went wrong with how the Phoenix was reinterpreted as a cosmic entity, I'm more discussing SINCE it's a cosmic entity, what's the best way to reinvent it, into something that makes more sense.

---------

I'm not at all, against anyone who disagrees with me. Everyone has a right to their opinion, and I do want to hear the opinions of others. BUT, if you disagree with me, don't be condescending towards what I have to say.

And who knows? Maybe one day, Gambit DOES become the new Phoenix, as in... the NEW major host, and main bearer of the mantle, kinda like how Carol Danvers became Captain Marvel, and has been wearing it ever since. I'm not saying its going to happen (wink wink), but I do want to discuss and debate that possibility, once again, regardless of who does/doesn't agree with me 😊

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HAWK2916

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@one_truephoenix: And I just dont think it should be reinterpreted that way. I dont think we need to make the Xmen similar to any other properties. I feel like a story or concept can be so muddied that it just needs to be put away and really I think thats the best thing for this one.

But if the exercise is in reinterpreting what it is or should be....well thats a hard one but I would say maybe a reinvention in a similar way to what Hickman did with Moira. Maybe she was the ultimate gost using the power to reincarnate and possibly has been able to transfer said power to other host if you will. Or In fact I'd argue that instead of Moira this should have been a Jean Grey-Phoenix story and all the former lifetimes should have been the Phoenix reincarnating

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One_TruePhoenix

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@hawk2916 said:

@one_truephoenix: And I just dont think it should be reinterpreted that way. I dont think we need to make the Xmen similar to any other properties. I feel like a story or concept can be so muddied that it just needs to be put away and really I think thats the best thing for this one.

But if the exercise is in reinterpreting what it is or should be....well thats a hard one but I would say maybe a reinvention in a similar way to what Hickman did with Moira. Maybe she was the ultimate gost using the power to reincarnate and possibly has been able to transfer said power to other host if you will. Or In fact I'd argue that instead of Moira this should have been a Jean Grey-Phoenix story and all the former lifetimes should have been the Phoenix reincarnating

And, I'm not saying that X-Men NEEDS to mirror another property. honestly someone else mentioned the Force from SW, and like, I'm more saying it as an example. I don't mean that literal.

For me, I'm at a point now that Id like to think of something super fresh, almost starting from scratch. Pretending that the Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga never existed, try to come up with something totally new, and work from there.

as far as hosts go, this is just me, Jean Grey (and her clones, no dissing) have had the spotlight for LONG enough (one of the reasons I still don't mind Phoenix being a cosmic entity in reinventing it). I wanna see a brand NEW face, that's NOTHING like Jean Grey, not related to her in anyway, and write a new set of otherworldly, wild adventures.

that's why Id choose Gambit; he's a character with extremely untapped potential, has characteristics that already matches the Phoenix of mythologies, and even if he's not a cosmic hero, wearing the mantle of Phoenix, Remy still can embark on some new type of interdimensional and ethereal quests, but with darker tones and appeal.

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HAWK2916

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@one_truephoenix: well I get the idea of wanting it tied to others not just Jean and her brood of clones, adopted children etc. I loke Gambit as a member if the Xmen and feel that him at full capacity being explored would be powerful enough without needing something lije a Phoenix or whatever. I mentioned New Sun because that sort of showed how powerful he could be. I also think of Vulcan too being an omega level energy manipulator. I see Gambit being able to do that as well and at his full extent he could nearly all poweful in his own right. Exploring that is far better than attaching a Phoenix moniker to him. I honestly cant think of anyone who I would want it attached to anymore at all so in my opinion if the thing were to be revised it would have to be only after being completely gone and not referred to hinted at or teased for at least a decade. That in my opinion is the inly way to have a fresh start and even if it did come back it would need to be nowhere close to what its been

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One_TruePhoenix

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@hawk2916 said:

@one_truephoenix: well I get the idea of wanting it tied to others not just Jean and her brood of clones, adopted children etc. I loke Gambit as a member if the Xmen and feel that him at full capacity being explored would be powerful enough without needing something lije a Phoenix or whatever. I mentioned New Sun because that sort of showed how powerful he could be. I also think of Vulcan too being an omega level energy manipulator. I see Gambit being able to do that as well and at his full extent he could nearly all poweful in his own right. Exploring that is far better than attaching a Phoenix moniker to him. I honestly cant think of anyone who I would want it attached to anymore at all so in my opinion if the thing were to be revised it would have to be only after being completely gone and not referred to hinted at or teased for at least a decade. That in my opinion is the inly way to have a fresh start and even if it did come back it would need to be nowhere close to what its been

I feel poor writing and excessive writing has worn the fans out with the whole Phoenix concept. It especially got bad with Jason Aaron, who's at it again :( Now, unless you're a hardcore Jean Grey fan, a good number of X-Fans, and Marvel fans in general, just really want it all shelved for a good long while.

In a way, it would be best for the comics to shelve the Phoenix, for a long period of time. Like a few good years, take their time and come up with something fresh and new, and imo retcon a LOT that has to do with the Phoenix currently, and rebrand it. Reinvent, rework, and reintroduce the Phoenix, and at that, using a new character (or if Phoenix is a level of potential... still, use a NON-Grey character). Possibly someone that doesn't even have anything to do with the X-Men. Almost a new hero/concept.

Me, I must say I loved the idea of a cosmic force called "The Phoenix Force", I just hated that it was associated with Jean Grey. This is where you and I may part ways in opinion, but... I'd like to give "The Phoenix Force" one more shot, with some retconning and reimagining, using a somewhat reinvented narrative, and a new host.

I get that Gambit could be powerful all on his own. However, I'm not pairing Gambit with the Phoenix to augment his powers. Aamof the story I have in mind would show Gambit actually being more powerful than the Phoenix Force itself, thus is one reason why it "comes to him". But, not about amping up Gambit's powers as much as pairing him and his personal narrative with the principles and metaphors of the Phoenix. That's the angle I'm coming from.

The Phoenix in comics ONLY serves to put Jean Grey on this, very over the top, overpowered, goddess pedestal, with very little meaning, outside of Claremont's original work. But me, I'd bring actual meaning to the Phoenix and the metaphors it carries. I didn't choose Gambit randomly, but by virtue that he resembles the Phoenix principle more than ANY other of the X-Men, in reality.

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HAWK2916

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@one_truephoenix: To each his own I guess. I stand by the idea that its be terribly written and overused to the point where it should be shelved. Tge idea of sone abstract force having principles and metaphors to me just goes against the very nature of it being some abstract force. At best the Phoenix story should be an arc that ultimately changed the Xmen. I dont see a need to keep rehashing and redoing that plotline. Aaron and others have tried to do just thata nd its a diasaster

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MasterOfEvil

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Lilandra. Think about it! That's an X-men event lolz

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One_TruePhoenix

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@masterofevil: LOL at LEAST it would make for an interesting twist! Imagine if she "sacrifices" herself to become Phoenix, to face of her brother. Then she takes off with the M'Kraan Crystal, seemingly to never be seen again. This leaves the Shi'ar in total disarray, and we could see the repercussions of that. Then, we could have a "Dark Phoenix" of Lilandra fighting her own people, and they have extreme mixed feelings about fighting their own heir to the throne, who isn't acting from her own mind.

I can see this plot actually :D

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One_TruePhoenix

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@hawk2916 said:

@one_truephoenix: To each his own I guess. I stand by the idea that its be terribly written and overused to the point where it should be shelved. Tge idea of sone abstract force having principles and metaphors to me just goes against the very nature of it being some abstract force. At best the Phoenix story should be an arc that ultimately changed the Xmen. I dont see a need to keep rehashing and redoing that plotline. Aaron and others have tried to do just thata nd its a diasaster

Well I never said I'd write The Phoenix as an "abstract" force. Something abstract, would barely have solidified consciousness, and would rather exist as is. That's kinda what I mean by, "retconning" parts of the Phoenix's current lore, to create something more solid, not as nebulous, and making it a cosmic force that DOES have more definition, principles and employing the symbology of the real Phoenix.

If I could write a Phoenix arc (and I will attempt as a fanfic), it would be a story that changes the X-Men as characters; be something that doesn't just mean transformation of one person (the Phoenix's host, in my case, I still choose Gambit), but the whole team. What they would experience, how Phoenix's evolution and plight engaged them in a way that changes them as people, their view of the world, the whole universe, and their relationship with one another.

I think we ALL can agree that Jason Aaron in particular, is a run-on train wreck that has no end with its wreckage LOL

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ObscureObsidian

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Hyppotetically if Jean never existed... maybe Scott or Ororo. I know there's a What If? already about what if Storm became Phoenix instead of Jean, but I was never quite convinced with the scenario they showed.

I also kinda lose track of which characters were the Phoenix Force hosts or not, so here's some ideas:

- Made Scott a host again. I always thought the arc they attempted to give Scott in AvX felt rushed. Also now Jean's alive we can explore how the two characters feel about the roles reversed.

- Has Madelyne ever been a Phoenix host? Because I'd love to see her finally becoming Dark Phoenix. Or just translate the concept of the Goblin Force from Mutant X to the main universe.

- Not another Phoenix host, but reveal that Psylocke is actually th host of another cosmic force that coexists with the Phoenix Force could've been cool. Yeah there's the question in-universe of why this wasn't told before, but that tends to be the situation with a lot of comics currently. Unfortunately.

That's the thing, maybe there could reveal that besides the Phoenix there are another three cosmic forces based on Eastern cardinal beasts. One for the Tiger (whose host could be Logan or Hank), one for the Tortoise (whose host could be the professor, Ororo or Kurt) and one for the dragon (who in my humble opinion should be Scott).

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@obscureobsidian: Well Psylovke once had the Crimson Dawn. Maddie Pryor had the Goblin Force. And I believe Bishop had the Le Bete Noir. Not to mention Havok being some type of Nexus of Realities or something. On top of that Magik had absorbed Limbo or was all powerful there so maybe there's a Limbo force. Then the Cyttorak gem which is somewhat of a force giving Juggernaut and even Colossus abilities. Then remember Scott's optic blast are supposedly from his eyes as some portal to a force dimension.

There's just alot of forces out there.

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@koays said:
@hawk2916 said:

@one_truephoenix: yep he's definitely that.... A trainwreck

Facts!

@obscureobsidian came up with a brilliant foundational idea. I definitely changed it up to match the characters and their powers better, but I'll talk about that later :D

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#42  Edited By marvelfan1992

X-Men fans whenever the phoenix starts cawing

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@marvelfan1992: LOL that's pretty accurate. Cuz nothing new is done every it writers employ it.

I must ask, as a Marvel fan, with Jean Grey as your avatar, do you mind me asking the issues you have with the Phoenix? It's just funny to me seeing what I assume is a Jean fan, not like the Phoenix.

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#44  Edited By marvelfan1992

@one_truephoenix: For Jean, the phoenix became the center of the character, and most of the Jean stuff would somehow revolve around the phoenix. She's more than the phoenix and needs stories and developments that are separate from it.

Let's take a look:

M'kraan Crystal saga and Dark phoenix saga - these were amazing and the dark phoenix saga is arguably the best and most famous X-Men "event" in history. So we definitely love this era. It kept going though...

Jean came back - she had to deal with the fallout from the phoenix stuff, and scott was always worried about phoenix stuff. Understandable

Inferno - she rejected the part of the phoenix that tried to go to her and it went to maddie, the phoenix was at the core of that story

Late 90's scott and jean's story line revolved around his fear that she was becoming more powerful and feared the phoenix - she made a phoenix emblem on the ground and started wearing the costume.

X-Men revolution era - was still going by the phoenix and cable feared she was going phoenix and was thinking about having to kill her

New X-Men - phoenix stuff again. A lot of the story revolved around her getting more powerful and people fearing se would become the phoenix, it also contributed to her rift with scott. Ended up with the phoenix stuff at the end

Phoenix; Endsong - phoenix stuff again

time displaced Jean Grey had a solo series bared entirely around the coming of the phoenix

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One_TruePhoenix

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@marvelfan1992:

I totally agree with you, and that's been one of my issues with the Phoenix, and Jean Grey. I hate that the Phoenix Force swallow the central plot of whatever story its featured in, and it has diminished Jean Grey's own development, as to why she's not a strong character for me personally.

The Phoenix has become a writer's crutch for creativity, and not spending time on even developing other characters, seeing the Phoenix appearing now has become a draw back, instead of something exciting to forward to.

I'd like Jean so much more if they did away with the Phoenix, early on, and had the notion to simply pursue developing her as a character, her powers and such. They need to focus on developing Jean as herself, perhaps shelve the Phoenix for some time. If they bring the Phoenix back, they need to retcon certain elements of it, give it a reformed narrative and reintroduce it with someone else. Just to distance Jean from it and let her be her own person.

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Depends on the story. The Phoenix is suppose to represent life/Creation and Death/Destruction.

  • If a story trying to revive the mutant race then Elixir would be the perfect host for the Phoenix.
  • If the Story is about consuming life in the Universe then Rogue would be the perfect host.

Honestly the Phoenix force regardless of host should be immensely powerful. The lore isn't really well defined along with its capabilities.

Personally I see the Phoenix force as a glorified power amplifier. So overall the best host would a reality warping/Universal manipulator like Legion or Franklin Richards.

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Depends on the story. The Phoenix is suppose to represent life/Creation and Death/Destruction.

  • If a story trying to revive the mutant race then Elixir would be the perfect host for the Phoenix.
  • If the Story is about consuming life in the Universe then Rogue would be the perfect host.

Honestly the Phoenix force regardless of host should be immensely powerful. The lore isn't really well defined along with its capabilities.

Personally I see the Phoenix force as a glorified power amplifier. So overall the best host would a reality warping/Universal manipulator like Legion or Franklin Richards.

I wouldn’t say just any host after today’s Avengers issue. Let’s just say, to avoid spoilers, street-levelers have no imagination beyond using their fists.

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rachel