@jhazzroucher: If we're moving from 'love' to 'need', she's basically the one woman army of X-Men Red. The current iteration of Jean Grey is completely self-sufficient by design.
The closest she had to an emotional struggle was a random projectile hotdog.
Chalk it up to Tom Taylor being a terrible character writer or not, her current iteration has been completely distant to Scott or Logan.
@wollfmyth209: She didn’t have children with him and lived happily ever after. She just married him and they cheated on each other with Scott pledging his love to another woman after Jeans death.
Those children are either from alternate realities whom she took in as her children or Nathan. And again, despite all that, they still cheated.
@ashetdust: You can at least take solace in the fact that there is evidence that Jean made room for Logan in her heart. Not enough to commit and break-up with Scott or even act on her feelings truly, but there was something that she mentioned. And Scott acknowledged it and stuck with Jean anyways.
Edit: Also, character struggle? Like Cassandra Nova impersonating Jean via complicated video? Or Jean having to fight Rachel? Or having to go through the trouble of clearing her name against a telepath?
You can not like the book all you like, but you can’t claim Jean has had no struggles that mattered. And not all her plans were her own. Gabby helped Jean look at things from a different perspective which led to calling Tony Stark, Trinary, Gabby, And X-23 solved the Sentinite crisis, and Trinary helped clear Jeans name.
@ashetdust: You can at least take solace in the fact that there is evidence that Jean made room for Logan in her heart. Not enough to commit and break-up with Scott or even act on her feelings truly, but there was something that she mentioned. And Scott acknowledged it and stuck with Jean anyways.
@jhazzroucher: Jean doesn’t need Scott and Storm is losing her relevancy and resistance to psionic manipulation and attacks. Now, we have Jean, Rachel, AND Typhoid Mary hitting Storm with illusions, psychic bolts, and straight shut downs. So if anyone needs a man to pick her up, it’s Storm and Wolverine has his own issues to deal with that don’t involve Storm, nor are they what Storm could help with. So blow away little cloud because it’s sunny skies for the new leader of the X-Men, Jean Grey.
@pyrofn:The video impersonation was cleared up in a few pages. If that constituted a struggle, other character arcs have been world ending events by comparison.
As for the British UN member getting blown up, that had potential - but that barely had an impact. All of Jean's monologues - now and around that time - have all been eerily calm. The only moment she's gotten legitimately angry was the hotdog.
I don't remember Jean fighting Rachel - I thought it was basically Jean doing a 'take me in her place' switcheroo, followed by another calm monologue.
The only thing more dangerous than the hotdog I think, was Ahab dive bombing Atlantis, when Typhoid Mary got additional mcguffin powers, or the timey wimey future where Sentinels are actually capable of killing people.
Don't... don't get me started on Gabby.
Regardless, Jean's plan was still her own (even if it's a completely recycled plan).
That... wait, if this is about struggle, I'm getting the sense that all of her struggles are being solved by other people. That, or the struggles are actually just really manageable in the grand scheme of things.
For the most part, I find a good character struggle to be one where the main character either has to pick between two equally bad options, OR broach methodology that contradicts a core tenet of themselves. A physical challenge is also a decent struggle, but it's fairly bread and butter.
Which makes me ask - when has Jean ever had to pick between two bad options, or contradict a core tenet? Jean Grey has been fairly pious as of late, hasn't been wounded, and doesn't seem the least bit conflicted about merging people's minds. Neither does she mind sending Gabby into danger.
If you'd like probably the best example, Cyclops tells Oye to 'do what you think is right' when it came to going ham on hellfire club goons who actually won a fight.
Xavier was pretty damn perturbed with changing the timeline, broaching his future, or even just wiping someone out of existence with the biggest cock block of the century.
Those are the ones that come to mind...........
...........Buuuuuuuuuut, I have to consider the namesake of the thread. I had largely meant the 'completely self-sufficient' in the vein of 'does she need emotional support, a relationship, or male companionship', and it was largely no.
It occurs to me that I had put 'emotional' struggle. That... probably would have saved me some time. Nova, Rachel and Ahab have scarcely caused her any emotional struggle (compared to a physical struggle or smear campaign) compared to a hotdog.
I'm calling it now, hotdog - best new villain of 2018.
@adamtrmm: Teen Jean Grey has been the exact opposite, making a love triangle with Beast pretty early. If you're looking for infidelity, it'd be there.
Then again, Jean Grey is sacred, so I doubt they'd rewrite her purity like that.
@jhazzroucher: @ashetdust: @iamre321@mrnihal: @adamtrmm: @gladeusex: @pyrofn: jean and scott will always be the most popular x-couple........they had the most time together in years.......and as per emma words "scott's love for jean grey will never fully close" ......
@hopesummersforthefuture: Savor the past years while they lasted, because they seem hellbent on keeping Scott dead.
As for the most popular romance, that might take a dive given how meh the teen romance is.
As always, Emma Frost is love, Emma Frost is life.
LOL emma frost is black king, emma frost murdered shaw, emma frost is probably going to be a bad guy again.......emma frost isnt needed anymore thanks to the return of jean grey XP XP XD
@jhazzroucher: Jean doesn’t need Scott and Storm is losing her relevancy and resistance to psionic manipulation and attacks. Now, we have Jean, Rachel, AND Typhoid Mary hitting Storm with illusions, psychic bolts, and straight shut downs. So if anyone needs a man to pick her up, it’s Storm and Wolverine has his own issues to deal with that don’t involve Storm, nor are they what Storm could help with. So blow away little cloud because it’s sunny skies for the new leader of the X-Men, Jean Grey.
I see you picked up on that as well about writers changing Storm's psychic resistance. Storm got mind controlled in IvX too.
Looks like her iron will is starting to slip a little.
@ashetdust: You can at least take solace in the fact that there is evidence that Jean made room for Logan in her heart. Not enough to commit and break-up with Scott or even act on her feelings truly, but there was something that she mentioned. And Scott acknowledged it and stuck with Jean anyways.
Nothing new here folks.
Exactly. And yet people love to forget these not new facts about Scott and Jean so that they can be together. Its ridiculous.
@mrnihal: heck no!!!!! no one wants to kiss bishop.......he damaged goods.........i still dont forgive him for trying to kill hope when she was a baby......
@ashetdust: You can at least take solace in the fact that there is evidence that Jean made room for Logan in her heart. Not enough to commit and break-up with Scott or even act on her feelings truly, but there was something that she mentioned. And Scott acknowledged it and stuck with Jean anyways.
Nothing new here folks.
Exactly. And yet people love to forget these not new facts about Scott and Jean so that they can be together. Its ridiculous.
:P :P XP
yeah but no one suffered more then jott fans.......its time for jott to come back together for good......sure some people break up but sometimes they get back together..........jott rules
@mrnihal: heck no!!!!! no one wants to kiss bishop.......he damaged goods.........i still dont forgive him for trying to kill hope when she was a baby......
Exactly. And yet people love to forget these not new facts about Scott and Jean so that they can be together. Its ridiculous.
:P :P XP
yeah but no one suffered more then jott fans.......its time for jott to come back together for good......sure some people break up but sometimes they get back together..........jott rules
I don't know Hope. I almost feel like they are trying to push Jean into being the face of the X titles because Kitty wasn't as well received as they hoped, and we know how well that relationship between Kitty and Peter turned out.
@pyrofn:The video impersonation was cleared up in a few pages. If that constituted a struggle, other character arcs have been world ending events by comparison.
Yes,, it was a struggle for Jean.
It took Honey Badger to push her to think from another angle. I'd agree if Jean figured it out without Gabby's interference. And again, Jean had to ask help from Tony Stark to and the Avengers to stop Cassandra. It being solved in the matter of a couple of pages diesn't negate the fact that Jean couldn't do this alone.
As for the British UN member getting blown up, that had potential - but that barely had an impact. All of Jean's monologues - now and around that time - have all been eerily calm. The only moment she's gotten legitimately angry was the hotdog.
No impact? Right.
Definitely a blip on Jeans radar.
Everything was tied up so simply.
It wasn't even Jean that took care of the problem. She had to rely on her team to get the proof before facing the world.
As for Jeans monologues, that is Jeans job as a leader. She has to keep it together to solve problems and get people to trust her leadership. Its no different from when Scott does it
Or when Charles does it.
I don't remember Jean fighting Rachel - I thought it was basically Jean doing a 'take me in her place' switcheroo, followed by another calm monologue.
Actually, it was one of those solid illusion tricks Jean used in Phoenix Resurrection.
But not only did the illusion still fight Rachel, Jean almost lost Rachel in the process. So, it wasn't all cut and dry until Jean got Rachel out of there.
The only thing more dangerous than the hotdog I think, was Ahab dive bombing Atlantis, when Typhoid Mary got additional mcguffin powers, or the timey wimey future where Sentinels are actually capable of killing people.
Or a Hulk level super attacking Atlantis.
Or a giant Sentinel appearing from nowhere.
Or armed gunmen whom Jean couldn't simply shut down with her powers and had to switch to her telekinesis to stop because they were carrying automatic rifles.
Or mind-controlled X-Men
Don't... don't get me started on Gabby.
Sorry, but Gabby has had just as much of the spotlight. She is basically a blend of Iceman and X-23. What do you expect? She's a kid. She is also responsible for searebro's name.
Regardless, Jean's plan was still her own (even if it's a completely recycled plan).
Your problem is with Jeans lack of struggle, not her competency, so don't bend it that way.
That... wait, if this is about struggle, I'm getting the sense that all of her struggles are being solved by other people. That, or the struggles are actually just really manageable in the grand scheme of things.
Yes, they are being solved by other people. That's the purpose of a team and connections. So, that the leader doesn't have to do it alone. You should know that already.
For the most part, I find a good character struggle to be one where the main character either has to pick between two equally bad options, OR broach methodology that contradicts a core tenet of themselves.
That's not what this book is about. This is a book about settling things peacefully. To stop someone with as little casualties as possible, without having to sacrifice who you are to solve the problems.
And Jean has for the most part succeeded in that avenue, but t was far from easy, as Ive already shown above previously.
A physical challenge is also a decent struggle, but it's fairly bread and butter.
Agreed.
Which makes me ask - when has Jean ever had to pick between two bad options, or contradict a core tenet? Jean Grey has been fairly pious as of late, hasn't been wounded, and doesn't seem the least bit conflicted about merging people's minds. Neither does she mind sending Gabby into danger.
In this book? Never. The point is to search for that third option. Jean doesn't have to sacrifice who she is in order to bring peace. That is why everyone kept saying if Jean were here, the Schism wouldn't have happened. That Scott wouldn't have went bad. Jean as a character encourages the best ways to solve things and she encourages others to keep going if they are on the right path. She doesn't believe in becoming something dark to fit what mutants and humanity needs. We already have a Cyclops
We already have a Magneto
We already have an Emma Frost
We already have a Charles Xavier
We have many examples of people like this. We don't need anymore.
If you'd like probably the best example, Cyclops tells Oye to 'do what you think is right' when it came to going ham on hellfire club goons who actually won a fight.
I say again,
"We don't need another (insert character here)"
'Xavier was pretty damn perturbed with changing the timeline, broaching his future, or even just wiping someone out of existence with the biggest cock block of the century.
Those are the ones that come to mind...........
Well, I guess we both had the same people in mind when we were going over this. It may seem Mary Sue-ish, but they are far from that. They are just people who really believe in good that they are uncompromising. That is who Xavier was supposed to be before they changed that about him later in his history. Jean has her dark side as well, but she always tries to avoid that path because that's what leads to people becoming these figures seen as villains. Jean wants to be a beacon of heroism, not a martyr to her reputation when they could have avoided it entirely.
...........Buuuuuuuuuut, I have to consider the namesake of the thread. I had largely meant the 'completely self-sufficient' in the vein of 'does she need emotional support, a relationship, or male companionship', and it was largely no.
Male companionship is a no.
She does need emotional support
She does need a relationship, just not a romantic one
It occurs to me that I had put 'emotional' struggle. That... probably would have saved me some time. Nova, Rachel and Ahab have scarcely caused her any emotional struggle (compared to a physical struggle or smear campaign) compared to a hotdog.
Jean does have her emotional struggles. She simply doesn't give in. You just need to pay attention really good because Jean would take on the worlds problems before her own, but if you look closely, you see how she feels truly.
If you listen closely to what she says, you hear when she has moments of regret
Imperfection
Protectiveness
Genuine Terror
I'm calling it now, hotdog - best new villain of 2018.
@adamtrmm: Teen Jean Grey has been the exact opposite, making a love triangle with Beast pretty early. If you're looking for infidelity, it'd be there.
Then again, Jean Grey is sacred, so I doubt they'd rewrite her purity like that.
You'd be surprised.
Jean is a good person. Not a perfect one. I've been over this with Mary Sue claimers. I don't want to go over it a gain.
@jhazzroucher: Jean doesn’t need Scott and Storm is losing her relevancy and resistance to psionic manipulation and attacks. Now, we have Jean, Rachel, AND Typhoid Mary hitting Storm with illusions, psychic bolts, and straight shut downs. So if anyone needs a man to pick her up, it’s Storm and Wolverine has his own issues to deal with that don’t involve Storm, nor are they what Storm could help with. So blow away little cloud because it’s sunny skies for the new leader of the X-Men, Jean Grey.
I see you picked up on that as well about writers changing Storm's psychic resistance. Storm got mind controlled in IvX too.
Looks like her iron will is starting to slip a little.
@mrnihal: heck no!!!!! no one wants to kiss bishop.......he damaged goods.........i still dont forgive him for trying to kill hope when she was a baby......
@ashetdust: You can at least take solace in the fact that there is evidence that Jean made room for Logan in her heart. Not enough to commit and break-up with Scott or even act on her feelings truly, but there was something that she mentioned. And Scott acknowledged it and stuck with Jean anyways.
Nothing new here folks.
Exactly. And yet people love to forget these not new facts about Scott and Jean so that they can be together. Its ridiculous.
:P :P XP
yeah but no one suffered more then jott fans.......its time for jott to come back together for good......sure some people break up but sometimes they get back together..........jott rules
Really? Someone should tell Scott that while he is fondling the other woman.
I am totally sure that will go over well on Jean's side of things too.
@wollfmyth209: She didn’t have children with him and lived happily ever after. She just married him and they cheated on each other with Scott pledging his love to another woman after Jeans death.
Those children are either from alternate realities whom she took in as her children or Nathan. And again, despite all that, they still cheated.
Jean loves Scott. Scott loves Jean...and Emma.
Haha yep...
also 50% of this page is that one long post from pyrofn..
@jhazzroucher: @ashetdust: @iamre321@mrnihal: @adamtrmm: @gladeusex: @pyrofn: jean and scott will always be the most popular x-couple........they had the most time together in years.......and as per emma words "scott's love for jean grey will never fully close" ......
@iamre321: Jean only just got back, she can't be ready to bury the hatchet coz one of her last memories is the affair. It'll be interesting to see what they have planned for both ladies and how that meeting's gonna go. Jean will of course forgive Emma cuz that is what she does but I want her to be human and throw tantrums.
I don't hate Emma but I just can't like her. I feel Jean was killed all this time and Jean/Scott destroyed just to push Emma to be the top x-woman. Sometimes I felt like writers pushed Emma like a "mature", edgy porno version of Jean, like they were trying to replace Jean with Emma and I could never forgive that.
@pyrofn: The wall of text and images is basically impossible to respond to. I want to give you the honest debate you probably want, but there are a whole bunch of inconsistencies in there.
Tom Taylor trying to make Gabby relevant is not a good sign of anything.
Calling the Avengers for help is a good call, but is completely contradictory to it being an 'X-Men' book. An A+X or other dedicated crossover series, sure.
Jean not doing it alone runs contradictory to all of the times Jean has done things alone. The Jean vs Rachel fight is proof of it, yet you let that slide - or at least ignore the ramifications.
I said barely had an impact - not no impact. I rarely use absolutes, so turning my point into an absolute is pretty bad way to approach what I'm saying. I also said it had potential - though out of the three panels you showed, there's more stoicism than emotional response.
Team? Let's be honest - Trinary and Jean do all the heavy lifting. Tom Taylor made an incredibly imbalanced team, and making X-23, Honeybadger, Storm, Gambit, Namor and Gentle relevant is basically a chore. Jean does all the spectacular heavy lifting, while Trinary is essentially as the start and end of the plot points - Tom Taylor's obsession with social media hatred.
Did she have to rely on her team? I may not be remembering the issue well, but was there actually any reason Jean didn't do it herself?
Is it no different? Scott clearly has far, FAR worse things to deal with. It's even more contrived, but alien symbiotes that can completely disable anyone - has Jean even remotely had to deal with anything affecting her team like that? She had ONE team member (who wasn't even a team-member at that point) taken out of her control, and NO-ONE had to make a tough call. Tough calls mixed with tough circumstances - when done right - provide a great disparity.
Compare it to the Cassandra Nova situation. Jean has way more time to prepare, basically has none of her team compromised, and is effectively fighting only one or two superpowered individuals.
Hell, compare it to any of the other situations in X-Men Red. A mind controlled senator with a gun. One mind controlled hulkling.
The worst part is they could have had Namor actually be impressive and actually be powerful underwater. But nope, four supers against one.
Now they have the X-Men Red team PLUS the Avengers versus a bunch of mundane military forces. At least the Cyclops situation from before actually upped the stakes with supernatural/extraterrestrial weaponry - something that I actually appreciate far more now that Marvel has been pushing mundane weapons as bread and butter of villains.
Charle's does a monologue, so I disapprove.
The fact that Nova can't tell the difference between a telepathic illusion via Cerebro and the real thing is basically the end fight of the Last Jedi.
The Last Jedi was not great.
Jean did not almost lose Rachel. Nova was just being a trash villain.
One hulkling who has barely been seen since Superior Iron Man does not make a credible threat.
One Sentinel does not make a credible threat. Their unrelenting numbers (which Tom Taylor did correctly in the future scene) make them seem unstoppable.
That's one person. WITH AN SMG.
See, I don't mind the Ahab and hounds part. That said, you provided an image of Jean Grey soloing a bunch of people, so I don't know what your point is exactly.
My problem with Gabby is that she doesn't talk like a kid, an assassin or a legit X-Men member. She's just insanely out of place, and feels like a nepotism inclusion. She may be relevant to Jean Grey, but there's no goddamn reason for it.
If you remember the X-Men Red Annual, Jean reaches out to X-23. I'm 99% sure that Jean Grey and X-23 had never met, yet they're suddenly buddy enough to be part of the team. It's 100% a favoritism continuation on Tom Taylor's part.
If it had been super heroic circumstance, I wouldn't be able to nitpick this. But don't ever imply X-23 and Gabby are relevant for good reasons, because the only reason they are relevant are due to shonky fan fiction writing levels of writing.
Woah, I never said anything about competency. That's all you. Don't bend me bro.
I think it's pretty obvious one of my problems is that Jean is TOO competent, just on the onus that her powers let her solve more as an individual character when compared to others.
If you want to make this about competency, go for it, but don't be disingenuous and say that my motive is to go off on a tangent.
Teamwork is great, yeah. That said, I feel like a disproportion of the teamwork revolves around Jean, Trinary, and the snikt girls. It's a symptom of putting too many characters on the same team, simply because it dilutes the impact of all the characters.
If the book is not about making hard choices, then the book is about making easy choices.
Making easy choices is the realm of bad fan fiction.
I may be going off kilter, so I apologize in advance. Settling things peacefully is a good notion - but it's incredibly boring and banal. Stopping villains with as few casualties is a good notion - but unless that choice came at the cost of something else, it merely happened by default. If you never, EVER have a super hero morally challenged, then you are writing for kids in primary school.
Great stories require some level of difficult decision making, otherwise it gets too close to being mundane.
Obviously you can't go too far over the edge, in which it seems like the writers just punishing characters, like they did with Cyclops, Wolverine and Captain America.
But keeping your characters spotless is uncompelling. A knight in shining armor looks great, but the knights with dents, dirt and scars are the ones who have much more to show and tell.
Credit where credit is due, Trinary getting shot was at least an upheaval. That said, her getting shot through the floor, and it basically not mattering (given the team doesn't actually have a healer) by the next issue is equally lazy.
I suppose it doesn't help that X-23 and Honey Badger are practically unkillable, but that doesn't mean they're invincible either.
And I suppose you can have a paragon peacemaker. I have no qualms with Jean being a peacemaker - but I just feel like the situations she's had to deal with are just innately more manageable. It's easier to resolve things peacefully when the stakes are kind of low.
The Cassandra Nova stand off looks like the stakes are at the right place, but still - a mundane fleet of ships against the X-Men, Atlantis and the Avengers?
Again, I'm not saying Jean has to be the same CHARACTER, just be given equally tough CHOICES.
And again - a team too large dilutes character relationships.
Aren't... you the person you said I was reading too much into things?
There's barely any regret.
There's barely and imperfection.
Protectiveness is her primary goal, all around.
Genuine terror is always fleeting.
All in all, there's more platitudes and smug speeches - something you curiously omitted - that give me the sense Jean Grey always feels way more in control and morally superior than any sort of vulnerability.
Sure, she's vulnerable in many of those pages. But it's completely offset anytime Tom Taylor does a goddamn fourth wall breaking monologue.
Being perfect isn't the qualifier for being a Mary Sue. I'd start a list, but this is already a black hole.
Besides, the only one who is perfect is Emma Frost.
@jeannieh: You may want to notice the 'loved', word. Perhaps it's nuance of them being 'dead', but it could also be perceived as 'no longer love' as well.
Oh I don’t think we want Jean throwing a tantrum. When Jean gets truly angry Dark Phoenix saga stuff tends to happen.
Even though it was actually the Phoenix Force that went DF, it was copying her body, mind, memories and personality to such a degree that even Xavier couldn’t tell the difference. So effectively the PF was Jean and reacted how she would have in the same situation.
Perhaps giving Emma a telekinetic bitchslap would be better.
I just have a problem with the way Tom Taylor writes her.
The dialogue in the Jean Grey book between Ghost Jean and Emma is effectively it done right, in my eyes.
Oh I agree, what I meant in my last statement was that unlike you or I, there are some fans who exclusively hate emma and love jean and vice versa. I'm saying those people need to stop fighting. People like @hopesummersforthefuture who love to bash Emma and say stuff like "I hope Jean gets her revenge on Emma" etc...
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