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#1 Edited by GXrevs06 (4567 posts) - - Show Bio

In terms of writing, chemistry and generally as a couple. Which ship did you think was better and why?

To those of you who have read both relationships(I have not got around to the Jean/Scott era of comics yet), how did Scott's relationship with each of them differ?

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#2 Posted by Koays (11248 posts) - - Show Bio

Dear lord, what have you done?!?!?!

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#3 Posted by MsSelene (518 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean and Scott.

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#4 Edited by GXrevs06 (4567 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

Dear lord, what have you done?!?!?!

Ooh. Is this one of those contentious topics that leads to flame wars every time?

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#5 Posted by Koays (11248 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean and Scott definitely have better chemistry. All appearances and everything considered they just remind me of alot of couples I know where the guy is a dick and the girl seems sweet...but when you dig into it there both pricks who only care about eachother and that's why they work.

Emma and Scott are written better. It's mostly because alot of Emma's character development is about her not being accepted because she was a villain, meanwhile Scott always seems to trust her inspite of everything shes done.

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#6 Posted by Koays (11248 posts) - - Show Bio

@gxrevs06: I think the last thread that broached this topic is called "thoughts on Jean's return and JeanScottEmma" it's a year and a half old and nearly a thousand post.

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#7 Posted by TheInsufferable (2682 posts) - - Show Bio

*logs in after months

sees topic

logs out again*

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#8 Posted by McKlayn (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

Scott and Emma, they changed and made both characters more interesting in my opinion. The thing is Jean and Scott are just supposed to be, its the whole Mister Fantastic & Sue Storm thing, its just right

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#9 Posted by MrNihal (3152 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: There's two I think,both made by same viner.

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#10 Edited by marvelfan1992 (2518 posts) - - Show Bio

@mcklayn said:

Scott and Emma, they changed and made both characters more interesting in my opinion. The thing is Jean and Scott are just supposed to be, its the whole Mister Fantastic & Sue Storm thing, its just right

mostly this.

Personally, Scott and Emma were more interesting as a couple, but I had no love for them together. Maybe it's because Scott and Jean were the couple I grew up with, and I saw their relationship bloom. It just seemed more innocent and pure love (despite the shit stain that is wolverine)

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#11 Posted by GladeusEx (680 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean and Scott are the PBJ sandwich relationship. As good as normie pairings get with a tragic but pure destiny to it.

Emma and Scott are the chocolate croissant. Hard to get right, but sweet, delicious, very complicated and a guilty pleasure.

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#12 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11453 posts) - - Show Bio

w/ Emma

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#13 Posted by PyroFN (6171 posts) - - Show Bio

@theinsufferable: Aye! What are you doing here? Where ya been?

@koays: Someone stole your schtick! We do not need you to be a role model!

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#14 Posted by Koays (11248 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: Lmao, dont worry my next sabbatical from Comicvine is going to be redefine walking into an out of threads dramatically.

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#15 Posted by PyroFN (6171 posts) - - Show Bio

On topic, Jean and Scott’s was sweet in its beginnings. They went through a lot and held a lot of promise on par with Mr. Fantastic and Invisble Woman. Probably surpassing it even at times like the Dark Phoenix Saga. Needless to say, Morrison ruined it after going through so muc and Scott has had years of development without Jean in the picture. So, as wonderful as that relationship was, it should to me seem as it is, a past relationship that didn’t work out in the end. Unless a writer brings them out of that, addressing all the problems with both characters, problems that they stopped addressing after Scott and Jean got married, it always stands second best to Emma and Scott in my eyes.

Scott and Emma tackles all the big issues going on with both characters and were on a path to grow. They flourished with a trust that, according to Scott’s development, was something that Jean couldn’t give to Scott because Scott felt inferior to Jean, undeserving of her. We see that same problem in Emma, but because Scott has that issue, he handles it well and shows her that she is deserving. Emma pushes Scott to improve himself and Scott gives her what she has missed all her life. It’s an all-around better love story in my eyes.

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#16 Edited by GXrevs06 (4567 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn said:

On topic, Jean and Scott’s was sweet in its beginnings. They went through a lot and held a lot of promise on par with Mr. Fantastic and Invisble Woman. Probably surpassing it even at times like the Dark Phoenix Saga. Needless to say, Morrison ruined it after going through so muc and Scott has had years of development without Jean in the picture. So, as wonderful as that relationship was, it should to me seem as it is, a past relationship that didn’t work out in the end. Unless a writer brings them out of that, addressing all the problems with both characters, problems that they stopped addressing after Scott and Jean got married, it always stands second best to Emma and Scott in my eyes.

Scott and Emma tackles all the big issues going on with both characters and were on a path to grow. They flourished with a trust that, according to Scott’s development, was something that Jean couldn’t give to Scott because Scott felt inferior to Jean, undeserving of her. We see that same problem in Emma, but because Scott has that issue, he handles it well and shows her that she is deserving. Emma pushes Scott to improve himself and Scott gives her what she has missed all her life. It’s an all-around better love story in my eyes.

So their relationship was more balanced, basically. In a sense, Emma's own character flaws, her history, and moral ambiguity, balanced herself and Scott out whereas Jean was portrayed as almost "too perfect" or "Pure" for him. Is that the general gist of it?

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#17 Posted by PyroFN (6171 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Your next sabbatical? Oh no! We are not starting a trend here! Where’s my duct tape?!

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#18 Posted by PyroFN (6171 posts) - - Show Bio

@gxrevs06: Pretty much, in terms of Scott’s point of view.

Looking from Jeans perspective, we get someone who doesn’t see herself as bad, but has the potential to be so. The Phoenix and Madelyne only complicates it moreso. How does it tie-in with Scott? Jean does have expectations of Scott, but not to the degree Scott had. Needless to say, Jean does have a view of how things are supposed to look and doesn’t want it tainted. (Something I and @koays talked about) While Koays thinks Jeans dark side comes in to keep her life as it should, I feel Jean is simply oblivious when she is causing a problem, wherein she doesn’t see there is a problem with her, until things go too far that is. It goes the same way with Wolverine. She wishes to keep him as a friend and doesn’t realize how she contributes to the problem until it is too late. When she does catch the problem, she takes care of it however she is able to, but she isn’t the sharpest at seeing the potential for a problem before it actually does become a problem and sometimes, she doesn’t even catch the problem until it bites her in the butt. That’s how I see it anyways. That and her temper of course, but she tends to reign it in from my perspective, unless you really push her over the edge.

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#19 Posted by Koays (11248 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: @gxrevs06: You really cant directly compare the relationships that easy, and it isnt directly applicable to say Cyclops felt Jean was too good for him as the summation for Jott...even if that is a major factor.

Scott loves Jean. It's a pretty basic story weve heard before. The person who's life sucks, who feels inadequate, meets a person who falls in love with them inspite of all the things they think about themself. And in the end it gives him confidence.

From the late 70s until the late 90s Cyclops doesnt doubt himself or struggle for control except during periods when he and Jean are apart. He's stronger because he with Jean.

And for Jean you get almost a mirror story at first. When she returns the first time, shes this broken person who's had her life stolen. And through working together through her struggle to regain stability and her place in the world Jean finds that inspite of everything Scott is a constant in her life through bad and good and falls in love with that.

Essentially Jean loves Scott's strength, and to Scott Jean is his strength. And theyve been together so long it's hard to untangle even with them apart.

Emma and Scott lack that bit of balance because Emma blatantly feels inferior and voices it. It's the fact that Scott reminds her that her past, his past and the opinions of people in the present dont matter that make her love him. But for Scott it's harder to pinpoint what he loves about her. Wit, intellect, resourcefulness and a boldness of character are all major factors that she encourages in him but ultimately her effect on him is less obvious.

Jean and Scott are a love story. You can point to the moments they fell deeper in love and you know why they love eachother.

Scott and Emma are a couple. You know they care about each other and that they support and love eachother. But it's hard to point to the exact moment they fell in love.

You cant directly compare the two without trying to undermine one or the other.

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#20 Posted by PyroFN (6171 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: 1) “You really cant directly compare the relationships that easy, and it isnt directly applicable to say Cyclops felt Jean was too good for him as the summation for Jott...even if that is a major factor.”

I’d say it was for Jean and Scott that the problem was how Scott saw Jean and what Jean didn’t see. Other factors that contributed are more or less little details adding fuel to an already large fire. Logan’s interference, Jeans constant busy schedule, and Emma’s sudden interest, while contributing factors, aren’t what would have made or break the relationship. That is the bad, though, that we’ve all heard before.

2) “And for Jean you get almost a mirror story at first. When she returns the first time, shes this broken person who's had her life stolen. And through working together through her struggle to regain stability and her place in the world Jean finds that inspite of everything Scott is a constant in her life through bad and good and falls in love with that.”

Your assessment on Scott’s end of the relationship is spot on.

For Jean, it makes sense if we think the start of their relationship was after the Dark Phoenix, but that wasn’t the case. Jeans life had its downs long before she met Scott, surrounding Annie. That brings an underlying depressive feeling that affects Jeans sense of responsibility for her loved ones once Charles helps Jean heal and learn to control her powers. Jean unofficially meets Scott as a child, reaching out subconsciously though she doesn’t realize it because she senses his turmoil. Jean and Scott started falling in love sometime as X-Men, with Scotts inadequate feelings as pointed out, but on Jeans end, she doesn’t believe he feels anything for her and constantly questioned whether he truly loved her as they went through their “will they, won’t they” phase. Anytime Scott doesn’t express total delight, won’t stop her from leaving, or snaps at her, she thinks that he is not interested in her, only to either perk up or be totally confused when Scott shows worry or takes any initiative to spend time with her. While Jean tries to be the comfort of the team, being precious to the men on the team and the thing that kicks them in high gear when they lose focus on why they are doing what they do, Jean tries to reach out to Scott subconsciously like she did when she was little, seeking comfort that she wasn’t getting from the real deal until her powers are unlocked and they start dating. By then, they are really invested, but Jean leaves the team and Scott heads a new team, but still, Jean already plans for the typical life of a family with Scott with children. Luckily for her, she stops doubting him because she can sense his earnestness, though she does still wish for him to show more interest in her rather than his work. Then the Dark Phoenix Saga and Jean comes back, broken, but determined to get back to her old life, only to find that life moved on without her. So, after X-Factor forms and she tries to reconnect with Scott, Jean is once more having those insecurities of thinking he doesn’t love her, connected by the fact that she can’t read his mind. She thinks Scott’s bid to distance himself means that he has changed how he felt and then figured out that someone else is involved. She fails to realize Scott’s jealousy from Warrens inadvertent advances toward her because she is so focused on Scott once more snapping at her, giving her the cold shoulder, or just plain avoiding her, the very same situation going on in the 60’s, where Scott gets jealous of Warren or some guy who is only friends with Jean. Both cases Jean is unaware because she focuses on the mixed signals, but stops paying attention where everyone else, even Warren, see his obvious attraction evolving into love for Jean. Needless to say, Jean eventually learns once again that Scott does love her and that it was all a misunderstanding. This is a pattern for some reason that Jean always comes to the conclusion of when Scott has a small attraction to Psylocke and then Scott cheating on her with Emma. It’s hard to blame Jean for feeling like he doesn’t care, but history should have some merit, which is why I believe Jean has not only a naive outlook, but is oblivious to the more complicated problems.

4) “Essentially Jean loves Scott's strength, and to Scott Jean is his strength. And theyve been together so long it's hard to untangle even with them apart.”

This is where I disagree, not because how long they’ve been together or Scott’s view of Jean, but because Jean has some sort of insecurity that leads her to easily believe that could move on from her where she wouldn’t let him go. Jean would fight if some circumstance not in Scott’s control took him away from her, but the second Scott implies he doesn’t want to be around her or has an attraction to someone else, Jean thinks that’s it, he’s moved on and that she should do the same, without giving Scott any reason to pause or doubt himself.

5) “But for Scott it's harder to pinpoint what he loves about her”

From what I understand, it’s what he perceives as empathy, aka listening with no judgement. Someone there to balm his wounds and self-loathing. Someone there with him every step of the way, rather than trying to improve themself without him. Unlike Emma, Jean has a tendency to make leaps and bounds that no one, sometimes not even Xavier, can keep up with. She survives death, she becomes as powerful as a god seemingly, only to reveal that she never died and was replaced, but still more powerful than her original telekinetic power levels, then she is back to form with her telepathy and she slows her pace, only to take an abrupt leap again once Xavier loses his powers and disappears. She eventually takes more responsibility and Scott is dealing with something crippling his side of their relationship. Whereas in Emma’s case, she has to make slow progress because everyone lacks trust in her. She lacks trust in herself. Scott feels he has someone to relate to, not realizing he could with Jean even with her sudden power boosts or new positions involving Xavier’s dream.

6) “Jean and Scott are a love story. You can point to the moments they fell deeper in love and you know why they love eachother.

Scott and Emma are a couple. You know they care about each other and that they support and love eachother. But it's hard to point to the exact moment they fell in love.”

I see them both as a couples and love stories equally, but how they work are totally different. Ultimately what Scott says in Endsong is why I can easily compare the relationships, based on what Scott needs and how to avoid hurting the women as much as possible. It doesn’t make it anymore safe, but that is how I see their relationships, save for going into AvX, in which is a little more difficult for me to understand due to the many layers that broke Emma and Scott up, the not so clear reasons given for the decision, and the many out-of-character moments that hinder it from making any sense.

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#21 Edited by DaSalvadore (328 posts) - - Show Bio

I really want to lay some foundation for what I'm about to say so bare with me.

I'm an eighties kid who devoured every single Marvel comic I could get my hands on. The Adventures of Red and Slym was one of the very trades I ever bought myself and it still holds a place in my heart. Jean's wedding dress is bloody fantastic and their kiss is still an iconic image to this very day. But saying all of this...I honestly believe that the great Jean/Scott love story is mostly a myth.

Wait, wait! Hold the pitchforks for a minute and hear me out! I'm in no way saying they didn't love each other, I'm just suggesting it was a relationship that got blown out of proportions by everyone, including the characters.

Let's go back to the OG times. Jean comes into the X-Men's lives and as per usual, everyone falls for the one dame in the room. There's lots of will-they, won't-they going back and forth with Bobby and Warren trying to woo our lovely redhead while Scott does his woe is me in the corner (the less said about Xavier's desires the better). They ultimately get together and things continue. Comic is cancelled and brought back until the writing of our X-Men saviour and overlord Claremont.

Now here's the first problem. The "giant" team of mutants clash and all bar Cyclops ends up leaving to start fresh lives without being masked superheroes. Alex Summers and Lorna Dane leave to attempt a relationship and to follow their dreams while Scott is absolutely determined to stay with Xavier even while his love Jean walks out the door.

Scott's focus on being an X-Man and following Xavier trumps his feelings for Jean. Understandable but an important point.

And then we come to the Phoenix Saga. How does it start? Jean and Scott are shopping during Christmas. They're doing their absolute best to make the relationship work while Jean is roommates with Misty Knight and it seems to be going pretty solid so far. Cue kidnap by Sentiels and space shennigans including an alien race with stranger hair than Wolverine and Jean is killed. Scott leaves the X-Men and returns to his family only to...fall in love with a woman who could be his former girlfriend's twin! Got to give it to the guy, he certainly has a type.

Only (in one of the worst pieces of writing for a character ever) he abandons his new wife and child the moment he hears his ex is still alive. Insanity involving Apocalypse, clone wife turning evil sorceress wanting to sacrifice their son, Seige Perilius everything else leading up to their wedding. But let us look at what we really have here.

From Jean's side - A teenage romance that was turning into something serious on for her to "die" and when she comes back her former boyfriend married her twin/clone, had a kid but is desperate to be with her. From Jean's perspective they never even had a breakup.

From Scott's side - Lost his girlfriend, got married to a woman "almost" identical to her, had a kid, abandoned them and was almost fanatic about trying to convince Jean to get back with him despite the marriage/Nathan's existence.

In fact, I would say that Jean wasn't that receptive of getting back with Scott post-Phoenix until after she absorbed all of Madelyne's memories of their relationship and marriage.

I'm not saying Jean might not have married Scott from the beginning since that's how Rachel came about but I don't think it's a stretch to say that the 616 epic love-story was mostly pushed by Scott up until Jean gained memories of already being his wife, having sex, having his kid etc etc.

So for me, Scot and Emma feels far more a natural fit than Scott/Jean despite my love for the stories involving them.

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#22 Edited by GXrevs06 (4567 posts) - - Show Bio

There's lots of will-they, won't-they going back and forth with Bobby and Warren trying to woo our lovely redhead while Scott does his woe is me in the corner (the less said about Xavier's desires the better).

Wait wtf!? Please explain

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#23 Posted by PurplePerson (907 posts) - - Show Bio
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@gxrevs06: Yeah, not sure when this originally happened but it is brought up again (WHY?!) at the beginning of the Onslaught saga.

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#24 Posted by Helloman (29574 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither obviously.

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#25 Posted by DaSalvadore (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@gxrevs06 said:
@dasalvadore said:

There's lots of will-they, won't-they going back and forth with Bobby and Warren trying to woo our lovely redhead while Scott does his woe is me in the corner (the less said about Xavier's desires the better).

Wait wtf!? Please explain

For a good amount of the early original run of X-Men comics Jean was chased after by all of the men in the series. The first issue literally starts with them being frat boys sticking their heads out of the window with tongues hanging while Xavier calmly smokes a pipe trying to act all cool and composed. There's even a scene where Jean is trying on her uniform and the boys are peaking around the door watching her!

Anyway. Bobby and Hank are mostly just hound-dogging the situation since they end up in some small relationships with non-mutant girls and often go to cafes and clubs with them. Jean's main affection rivals are Warren and Scott (it's actually why Warren goes nuts on Wolverine when he makes the move on Jean once Krakoa situation was over). But throughout the entire "who is she going to be with" soap oprea is Xavier having random moments where he keeps thinking about his love for Jean. And it's some weird all passionate consuming love too.

@purpleperson's scan from the Onslaught Saga is actually a legit redraw of one of those Xavier scenes. What's really disturbing aside from the fact he was her counseller since she was a pre-teen is how Xavier only thinks that him being in the wheelchair is what keeps Jean from loving him. I'm pretty sure that the entire thing was dropped by the time original X-Men run was over and it never got brought back until Onslaught but it's a legit thing.

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#26 Posted by LordMordor (397 posts) - - Show Bio

I've said my piece on this multiple times...but personally for me I enjoyed and felt Scott/Emma were more real and overall functional. Which is odd now that I think about it because all throughout the O5's stay I also really enjoyed Tyke and Jeen….I think its because, if only in my own head...Scott and Jean was a simpler and "purer" love, where as Emma/Scott were a more complex and adult relationship.

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#27 Posted by GXrevs06 (4567 posts) - - Show Bio

I've said my piece on this multiple times...but personally for me I enjoyed and felt Scott/Emma were more real and overall functional. Which is odd now that I think about it because all throughout the O5's stay I also really enjoyed Tyke and Jeen….I think its because, if only in my own head...Scott and Jean was a simpler and "purer" love, where as Emma/Scott were a more complex and adult relationship.

So you've read the original run? What was it that drew Jean to Scott and not, say, Bobby, Hank or Warren?

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#28 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (9281 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordMordor: @koays

@pyrofn said:

@gxrevs06: Pretty much, in terms of Scott’s point of view.

Looking from Jeans perspective, we get someone who doesn’t see herself as bad, but has the potential to be so. The Phoenix and Madelyne only complicates it moreso. How does it tie-in with Scott? Jean does have expectations of Scott, but not to the degree Scott had. Needless to say, Jean does have a view of how things are supposed to look and doesn’t want it tainted. (Something I and @koays talked about) While Koays thinks Jeans dark side comes in to keep her life as it should, I feel Jean is simply oblivious when she is causing a problem, wherein she doesn’t see there is a problem with her, until things go too far that is. It goes the same way with Wolverine. She wishes to keep him as a friend and doesn’t realize how she contributes to the problem until it is too late. When she does catch the problem, she takes care of it however she is able to, but she isn’t the sharpest at seeing the potential for a problem before it actually does become a problem and sometimes, she doesn’t even catch the problem until it bites her in the butt. That’s how I see it anyways. That and her temper of course, but she tends to reign it in from my perspective, unless you really push her over the edge.

whoa whoa whoa.......

first, jean knows her faults and problems ie this panel

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i am and always will be jott-supporter(no question)

2) By definition, a toxic relationship is a relationship characterized by behaviors on the part of the toxic partner that are emotionally and, not infrequently, physically damaging to their partner. ... A toxic relationship is characterized by insecurity, self-centeredness, dominance, control.

scemma are toxic......why? cause emma kept pushing him to the brink and turned him into a criminal/terrorist......then emma cheated on him which he had a breaking point and ie didnt get back together with her even after she asked him too

scott never fully trusted emma like he trusted jean ie in phoenix warsong scott told emma "i love u but i dont know if i trust u" (trust with scemma will always be a issue)

emma cheated on him and never apologized: even scott apologized when he and magneto broke emma out of jail

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I find it Ironic that they broke up being cheated on since they started as a "affair/cheating"

Also emma wanted something more from scott yet felt like "just a girlfriend" instead of his "equal partner"

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shes knows she doesnt deserve him.......no matter what he says he will never truly trust her.......the door for his love for jean grey will never truly be closed

end rant

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#29 Posted by PyroFN (6171 posts) - - Show Bio

@hopesummersforthefuture: 1) Put your ‘whoas’ away. This is about what’s wrong with Jean. Not about what she did. Her faults, not her crimes.

2) There you go again. No, Emma didn’t push him into anything he didn’t already was planning to do. She was supportive, not manipulating him. Stop pawning off Scott’s faults on Emma. Emma is not responsible for Scott’s choices. He is a big boy who knows right from wrong.

3) Emma didn’t cheat on Scott. The Phoenix was influencing her emotions and Scott new that. That is why he took Emma’s piece.

4) And whose fault was it that Emma wanted something more? Certainly not Emma’s.

5) That is Emma’s insecurities saying she isn’t good enough for him. It’s no different from when Scott implies he is no good for Jean. You gonna tell me that he is wrong? Then you will have to admit Emma is wrong.

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#30 Posted by DaSalvadore (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@gxrevs06 said:
@LordMordor said:

I've said my piece on this multiple times...but personally for me I enjoyed and felt Scott/Emma were more real and overall functional. Which is odd now that I think about it because all throughout the O5's stay I also really enjoyed Tyke and Jeen….I think its because, if only in my own head...Scott and Jean was a simpler and "purer" love, where as Emma/Scott were a more complex and adult relationship.

So you've read the original run? What was it that drew Jean to Scott and not, say, Bobby, Hank or Warren?

Absolutely nothing. There's really nothing shown that explains it. It's actually possible to suggest Sinister got hold of Jean and manipulated them both into being attracted to each other in order to produce a version of Nate.

Jean comes across as enjoying the attention from the others but not in any real serious way. It's very much a "woe is me, the man/woman I love doesn't love me. Why don't you feel the same way I do about you?" situation for a number of issues from both Jean and Scott.

I do agree with LordMordor in that the Jean/Scott love does feel somewhat innocent and untouched by the true harshness of the world they are in. Despite their tragic childhoods, both Summers brothers come across as wanting nothing more than white picket fence and 2.4 children homes. Their tragedy is that Alex tried and it was destroyed by outside forces while Scott's 'innocent' dream was helped to ruin by his desire to be an X-Man.

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#31 Posted by Koays (11248 posts) - - Show Bio

@dasalvadore: Interesting point on the Summers brothers. Though I'd nitpick that Scott's desire was less ruined by his desire to be an X-man then by his sense of responsibility.

For all you could argue about Scott and Maddie they werent gonna work. And truthfully the happiest he seems in a relationship were when he and Jean were raising Baby Nathan in X-Factor, and when they were away from or planning to leave the X-Men in the 90s. Hell if I did a collage of good issues for Jott then the time X-Man goes to see them in Alaska would definetly be included because of how (for lack of a better word) 'adorable' they come off teaching Nate and Cyclops giving him his old uniform.

Theres an interesting dynamic when you deconstruct Jean and Scott especially from X-Factor onward. They both have very similar ways of viewing the X-Men (even if you look at Revolution Cyke, he comes off very similar to X-Factor Jean in mindset), and seemingly their perfect world has them balancing a family with being X-Men, but every time they try to pause to start that the family part crap hits the fan. It's why their relationship with Cable is also so adorable because the 8ft tall muscle bound mercenary is the embodiment of that idea. They get to go save the world with him, and when it's over he turns into this gigantic man baby who they dote on every chance they get.

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#32 Posted by DaSalvadore (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: I didn't think about Cable being a representation of their relationship but that's a good shout.

Scott and Maddie could have worked and I know that was Claremont's goal with them but it happened too close to Jean's death for my liking. For it to really have been something long-term, Claremont should have had Maddie show up a good number of issues later and had things spread out over more time.

You could argue that Jean and Scott during their X-Factor days were good but don't forget, this is the time where Scott has a wife who looks like Jean and a son that he not only doesn't tell Jean about at all, but he also ends up dragging his feet sharing their existence even after their disappearance. Heck, his search for them is even drawn out! Now that may be because of PiS in some issues but there's still a big feeling of him trying to act like Maddie doesn't exist when he is around Jean.

I do agree with you that they have similar opinions on how the X-team should be. They can both end up being somewhat militant in their attitudes only with Cyke being the one who steps over the edge.

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#33 Posted by Koays (11248 posts) - - Show Bio

@dasalvadore: Well you have to remember that Maddie was only a thing because Claremont really didnt want to kill Jean, he wanted her to survive the DPS powerless and then eventually right her and Scott out as main members of the team and basically have them go off and have Rachel. By the time of Cables birth, Rachel is there, and Maddie and Scott dont even seem to get along. For all we know they may have already been in talks for a possible Jean return.

Well no. I'm mostly referring to post-Inferno X-Factor. Jean and Scott came out of Inferno as wacky sitcom parents who raised their super powered son in their spaceship over New York with crazy Uncles Beast and Iceman. At that point it's almost like they shrugged and said "who's Maddie?" Aside from when she popped up as one of Jean's split personalities.

If you reread the closing issues of Bendis' Uncanny and Scott's explanation of the Revolution. Or even just Uncanny X-Men 500 at the start of the San fran Era...and really any time he explains his actions during the Decimation Era, it pretty much plays in with their justification for pretending to be mutant hunters and half the times Jean got angry in the 90s.

Excluding maybe the kill squad, I can see Jean making alot of the same moves Scott did. And his explanation of Utopia and her attempt at forming "the mutant nation" are interchangeable

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#34 Edited by LordMordor (397 posts) - - Show Bio

@gxrevs06 said:
@LordMordor said:

I've said my piece on this multiple times...but personally for me I enjoyed and felt Scott/Emma were more real and overall functional. Which is odd now that I think about it because all throughout the O5's stay I also really enjoyed Tyke and Jeen….I think its because, if only in my own head...Scott and Jean was a simpler and "purer" love, where as Emma/Scott were a more complex and adult relationship.

So you've read the original run? What was it that drew Jean to Scott and not, say, Bobby, Hank or Warren?

Honestly, it was nothing specifically about Scott. It feels like cheating to explain it this way...but it really was just because out of the 4 boys on the original team, Scott was set up as the leader, and in stories during that time period its the leader of the group that gets the girl.

They explained in universe things like them having some kind of cosmic connection from before they even met, but in reality it was that they wanted the leader character to get the girl...and since then the relationship had been developed enough that it just kept going.

@hopesummersforthefuture : as for Emma/Scott, I fully agree there was a lot of insecurity from Emma in regards to her position in Scotts life and if she deserved to be there. But that's no different than every time Scott felt unworthy of his place in Jean's or his position as leader. And she never manipulated him, she may have been the one to voice the darker or less heroic option in situations, but in the end she always deferred to his decision. Wolverine is playing the same role right now in Uncanny, Scott is trying to stick more to his old values and not killing their targets while Wolverine was suggesting making it a kill list would have been better.

As for their ending in Bendis' Uncanny...that is literally Bendis making scott into a massive hypocrite. That ENTIRE run was him saying he wasn't in control of himself during AvX, but he continues to hold the psychic affair with Namor while under Phoenix influence against her. Its especially bad writing because the exact same scenario happened only a few issues back in Uncanny when Unit blasted her and Namor with pheromones and they literally made out in front of him.