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Posted by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) 4 months, 23 days ago

Poll: When it comes to the Phoenix which explanation is best? (31 votes)

Jean's alter ego/the totality of her powers- movie version 32%
Creative/destructive force/entity that possesses- comic version 68%

Which one is the better explanation or plotline in your opinion. Although both the movie and comics have at times butchered the story which has the most merit?

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#1 Posted by cattlebattle (17510 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean's alter ego/the totality of her powers- movie version

Wait, this was the actual original comic version, and it wasn't an "alter ego" really either, it was just Jean becoming an asshole because she was so powerful.

The only reason it became the other thing is because they had to come up with complex nonsense to explain how Jean came back from the dead.

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#2 Edited by TheInsufferable (2583 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Hopefully they'll turn her into an asshole in the comics without needing an excuse like power this time.

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#3 Posted by cattlebattle (17510 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Hopefully they'll turn her into an asshole without needing an excuse like power this time.

Well, she is supposed to have sort of a mean streak, though, I don't see modern day writers having anything to do with that unless women aren't getting equal pay in wakanda or something.

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#4 Edited by TheInsufferable (2583 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle said:
@theinsufferable said:

@cattlebattle: Hopefully they'll turn her into an asshole without needing an excuse like power this time.

Well, she is supposed to have sort of a mean streak, though, I don't see modern day writers having anything to do with that unless women aren't getting equal pay in wakanda or something.

Not an asshole by their definition of course. But an asshole by the "hateful, bigoted, narrow-minded, etc" people's (e.g. me) definition.

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#5 Posted by Thunderscream (2558 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't there a retcon at some point explaining the Phoenix Force had been aware of Jean since her first manifestation of power?

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#6 Posted by del_torro (3406 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Yeah, honestly it's like people read some strange twisted version of Dark Phoenix where Phoenix is an evil moustache twirling villain that eats a planet.

I can clearly remember that all dark Phoenix did, was destroy the Xmens jet while declaring that she's no longer the woman they know, then fly in space, then opened a portal to fly some more in space.

Then she got hungry, and drained energy from a star making it explode. She didn't even notice there was a planet there (it's like a tiny and got into your coffee and you accidentally drank it, it's just something so tiny and beneath you for you to notice).

Then the next shiar shot at her and she went home to see her parents.

I don't know where people get their memory of an evil crazy out of control dark Phoenix destroying and killing everyone. Not sure why dark Phoenix had to be stopped in the comics, she wasn't actually doing anything to the X-men (they didn't even know about the dBari), they were just salty because Jean was a goddess and felt they were beneath her. It makes the Dark Phoenix Saga seem like the story of a woman who breaks free and finds Independence, but the men in her life need to put her under control because they are scared of her power (the original story draft didn't have the dBari in it, Jean just destroys a sun no life was harmed, but Cockrum didn't like her being powerful and added a planet Nevins Claremonts back so that shooter would make them kill her off. The original draft really proves how much the story is just Xavier and Scott not being able to accept a goddess Jean that doesn't care about them and trying to make her give up God hood so they can have their girlfriend/teammate token back).

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#7 Edited by cattlebattle (17510 posts) - - Show Bio

@del_torro said:

I don't know where people get their memory of an evil crazy out of control dark Phoenix destroying and killing everyone. Not sure why dark Phoenix had to be stopped in the comics, she wasn't actually doing anything to the X-men (they didn't even know about the dBari), they were just salty because Jean was a goddess and felt they were beneath her. It makes the Dark Phoenix Saga seem like the story of a woman who breaks free and finds Independence, but the men in her life need to put her under control because they are scared of her power (the original story draft didn't have the dBari in it, Jean just destroys a sun no life was harmed, but Cockrum didn't like her being powerful and added a planet Nevins Claremonts back so that shooter would make them kill her off. The original draft really proves how much the story is just Xavier and Scott not being able to accept a goddess Jean that doesn't care about them and trying to make her give up God hood so they can have their girlfriend/teammate token back).

Well, that's an interesting way of looking at it, and yeah, knowing Claremont's hard on for feminism and powerful women, I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the intentions. As for your comment about Cockrum, I was not really aware that he had anything to do with the Dark Phoenix story as he was a freelance cover artist at the time it was published . Are you sure you don't mean John Byrne??

I honestly never really liked the whole "Jean eats a star" thing. I always felt it was just a way to escalate the story to have the most insane climax they could possibly have with the X-Men battling an alien super human royal guard for the fate of their friend. Beforehand, Jean was just a really powerful telekinetic, her powers weren't really cosmic in any way and I still don't get why she would need to satiate herself by eating a sun, but whatever, it's comics after all.

And while you're right in that Jean didn't really do anything wrong or harm anyone I believe the intention of the entire story was to illustrate that Jean's natural powers were a step beyond mutants, and over time, she would have been able to control it like she did initially. However, the Hellfire Club messing with her mind caused her to lose control and give into her darker side, which was amplified by her growing powers which were nothing but short of Godhood at the time.

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#8 Posted by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@thunderscream: Yeah. It is very obscure I guess since I can’t exactly find the reference, but I think the best I can come up with is this panel where it hints at a “lifeglow” that Jean senses, but it’s too vague and not at all descriptive enough to be a reliable source of eluding to the Phoenix.

https://uncannyxmen.net/sites/default/files/images/spotlight2/jean01.jpg

The real first eluding to the Phoenix and Young Jean that I know of is from the moment Jean first sensed Scott, where their minds join and take the form of two Phoenixes embracing.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O-QREN6KtoU/VLbuANfsxeI/AAAAAAAAXjw/u-5L_nhLZlk/s1600/Classic%2BX-Men%2B%2342%2B-%2BJean.png

Afterwards, there are two more times I’m aware of Young Jeans connection to the Phoenix being eluded to, and these take place after she joins the X-Men. The first is the obvious Hidden Years book.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/jeangreyphoenixfans/imageproxy.php?url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/hidden.jpg

And lastly, X-Men: First Class, at the end of the Marvel Girl solo issue. (I could be simply seeing things, but I swear, the point tip looks like a beak)

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/64959/1682127-marvel_girl_021.jpg

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#9 Posted by MrNihal (3007 posts) - - Show Bio

So,all those saying jean's alter ago,------does that mean jean did all that in AvX???

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#10 Posted by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: 1) Jean was always meant to be somewhat the X-Men’s Thor when she became Phoenix, so it kind of makes sense that she would be cosmic levels, otherwise the other option is she is magic.

2) As for the Phoenix eating a planet, it is because the M’Kraan Crystal really drained Jean of her powers and having been so new with them, she really expended herself

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/97919/3925427-recap.jpg

That is why the all-powerful Dark Phoenix who should have no limits to her powers, had claimed that her powers were growing but were still finite. (Note she says “for the moment” meaning it’s not a permanent fact)

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/jeangreyphoenixfans/imageproxy.php?url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/newmsgt/dp2.jpg

And Marvel sure hasn’t forgotten this little detail since we see it used in X-Men: Grand Design, albeit in its own way.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xUly23amlm8/W1iEtCXIP9I/AAAAAAAADxQ/LuWowB8nHdQu4IfUuZTemVqye-1CLiKpACHMYCw/s1600/RCO020.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xe8FWlwJH0Y/W1iEtvghmPI/AAAAAAAADxU/7tR_jmPIXf8SMLFg4z5A-IQEdIpuoTIYwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO021_w.jpg

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#11 Posted by MrNihal (3007 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey,if something drains you,if you feel hungry,you can always eat a sun,jean.

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#12 Posted by cattlebattle (17510 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn said:

2) As for the Phoenix eating a planet, it is because the M’Kraan Crystal really drained Jean of her powers and having been so new with them, she really expended herself

The panel here is from the recollection of events after Jean dies. Basically, it was Claremont making sense of nonsensical events. I am saying that when you are reading the Dar Phoenix Saga in sequence it goes from an interpersonal story of the X-Men colliding with the invisible hand that has tormenting them for years and then randomly turns into a cosmic alien story after Jean randomly consumes a star.

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#13 Edited by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: I can see where you’re coming from. The only problem I’d see with them not going the cosmic route is Storm being an answer to Jean. Storm was always capped at an earthly level and if we were to cap Jeans power at that level, then Storm would’ve been too easy of an answer, as well as Xavier. I can honestly say that there is more of a struggle with the X-Men dealing with basically a godlike being vs a planet bound being. Even Magneto goes above the planet level typically to raise the stakes for the X-Men as the master of the Magnetism. And for the X-Men, Dark Phoenix was literally the first time they dealt with an actual threat of cosmic proportions, whereas the Z’Nox were an implied threat (and the Shiar story came with the Phoenix story so they don’t count to me as separate from the Dark Phoenix mythos).

I think at some point you do have to raise the stakes to see how the X-Men handles a situation like that, much like humans do with space in real life. We may not necessarily deal with Galactus level beings, but I’d suppose astronauts do gain trouble from cosmic events in space every so often, no?

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#14 Posted by cattlebattle (17510 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: I didn't say I dislike the cosmic X-Men stuff in general, my issue is mainly that the Dark Phoenix Saga is completely about finally confronting the Inner Circle and the aftermath of their deeds and then the story almost does this weird 180 where Jean eats a star and the X-Men are in gladiator combat with the Imperial Guard.

Jean also never really had anything related to her that was cosmic before Claremont decides to have her eat a star as well. Yes, she uses her psychic abilities and interacts the M'Kraan crystal while trying to repair it, but Storm could also communicate with space whales later on, it doesn't necessarily mean Storm is a cosmic being that has to consume space plasma randomly. You know??

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#15 Posted by jhazzroucher (25150 posts) - - Show Bio

2nd Option

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#16 Edited by PyroFN (5637 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Don’t get me wrong, I understood you were only criticizing the way the story flows, not expressing your dislike. (Not that you can’t express your opinion if you hypothetically didn’t like it, you’d just be completely and utterly wrong. Lol, I’m kidding, you can have whatever opinions you like)

I guess that makes the Phoenix Force thing make more sense in the grand scheme of things. At least you’d have a cosmic entity from space bringing in all the cosmic stuff, whereas in the context of it just being Jean, it comes out of nowhere. That’s a good point I never thought of....

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#17 Posted by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

I happen to agree with @cattlebattle when it comes to the story telling in DPS.

I almost wish the story could be redone with someone like Whedon at the helm. Someone mentioned it before but his arc with Ord and his Breakworld planet and all would and could be adapted to the Phoenix story. Arguably that was done but not very well in the X3 movie. Adapting the original story to be based on a fake prophecy about a world destroyer and maybe making the Breakworld an outpost or at least part of the Shiar empire, along with the Shiar maybe observing Earth and seeing such a power surge and possibly wanting to preempt an intelligent species now having an ultimate weapon and possibly being a threat. You still get your cosmic space story and battle Royale if you will but the story could flow better and we get rid of the overly stupid sun eating plot. You still could have the hellfire club plot involved too.

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#18 Posted by Invain (5141 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked the original idea of Jean losing control of her powers. The never found the cosmic entity idea very interesting.

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#19 Posted by adamTRMM (8931 posts) - - Show Bio

Cosmic chicken.

The thing with Mkraan and Shiar and all made it too big for one wee mutie.

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#20 Posted by Koays (10542 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly if Jean hadn't gone into space and ate all of those broccoli families i wouldn't mind it being her own power. The problem is that the scale of power in the Dark Phoenix Saga is so stupidly high that its not reasonable for her to be a mainstay in the franchise if thats what shes capable of.

I'm going with the Cosmic explanation because I do like reading stories about Jean Grey that AREN'T always about the Phoenix, so I like that we can always write it off as "Phoenix Force was off in Cambodia so Jean and the gang have to struggle and use their brains in this fight".

Now as a one off story, by far the true potential of Jean being a galactic threat so she destroyed herself is a better choice. But since Jean's story continues, its for the best that we reign in some of her power and put it to the cosmic chicken. (And honestly it would change my entire perspective on the whole "mutant equality" if one of them ate a planet)

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#21 Edited by jhazzroucher (25150 posts) - - Show Bio

The best explanation is Storm is more powerful than full-powered Phoenix.

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#22 Posted by MrNihal (3007 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

Honestly if Jean hadn't gone into space and ate all of those broccoli families i wouldn't mind it being her own power. The problem is that the scale of power in the Dark Phoenix Saga is so stupidly high that its not reasonable for her to be a mainstay in the franchise if thats what shes capable of.

I'm going with the Cosmic explanation because I do like reading stories about Jean Grey that AREN'T always about the Phoenix, so I like that we can always write it off as "Phoenix Force was off in Cambodia so Jean and the gang have to struggle and use their brains in this fight".

Now as a one off story, by far the true potential of Jean being a galactic threat so she destroyed herself is a better choice. But since Jean's story continues, its for the best that we reign in some of her power and put it to the cosmic chicken. (And honestly it would change my entire perspective on the whole "mutant equality" if one of them ate a planet)

That's the same problem with nate & cable.

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#23 Posted by DaSalvadore (212 posts) - - Show Bio

There are a few problems with the DP saga being solely about Jean going bad. To start with, the twisting of Jean comes through psychic manipulations from Mastermind with the very last straw being the "death" of Cyclops tipping Jean over the edge. So right then and there you have to throw out any misconceptions over the original Phoenix being nothing more than Jean's dark alter-ego. This isn't X-3 territory where Jean potentially could switch psycho-bitch if pushed in the wrong way. This is a systematic psychological breakdown of a woman who has vast psionic powers.

The second problem is not actually the eating of the star but rather what happens after that. The Shi'ar do not get involved because the star was eaten and a planet's population were killed, they get involved because of the phoenix form that mentally-damaged Jean makes. The Space Avian-Romans are not coming to Earth to kill an out of control mutant, they're coming to kill "the Phoenix."

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#24 Posted by jhazzroucher (25150 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrnihal said:
@koays said:

Honestly if Jean hadn't gone into space and ate all of those broccoli families i wouldn't mind it being her own power. The problem is that the scale of power in the Dark Phoenix Saga is so stupidly high that its not reasonable for her to be a mainstay in the franchise if thats what shes capable of.

I'm going with the Cosmic explanation because I do like reading stories about Jean Grey that AREN'T always about the Phoenix, so I like that we can always write it off as "Phoenix Force was off in Cambodia so Jean and the gang have to struggle and use their brains in this fight".

Now as a one off story, by far the true potential of Jean being a galactic threat so she destroyed herself is a better choice. But since Jean's story continues, its for the best that we reign in some of her power and put it to the cosmic chicken. (And honestly it would change my entire perspective on the whole "mutant equality" if one of them ate a planet)

That's the same problem with nate & cable.

I so agree.

I think Fox, particularly Singer and his team, just doesn't have enough knowledge how to create an good cgi for the phoenix entity so they decided to change the concept.

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#25 Posted by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

Some good arguments on both sides here

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#26 Posted by DevilMayehm666 (891 posts) - - Show Bio

@dasalvadore: The original ending had the Shi’ra depowering Jean by suppressing the part of her brain that controlled her mutant powers.