What NEW ideas you'd like to see revitalize the Phoenix's narrative?

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One_TruePhoenix

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#1  Edited By One_TruePhoenix

So... since some are on this topic, of NEW Phoenix hosts, new ideas, new narratives, cutting away repetition, what ideas would YOU guys love to see for the Phoenix Force?

(P.S. I AM attempting to write a story of my own so... kinda asking because of ^_^)

What are some things you LOVE about the Phoenix?

What do you NOT love about the Phoenix?

What repetition you'd like to see cut away?

How should the Phoenix Force function in a way that's more... relatable, as a cosmic entity?

Who would you choose as a host (or even One True Host) to tell a fresh new take on the Phoenix?

EVEN if you choose a Grey related host, what would you do TOTALLY different from the constant repetition from canon?

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fridric

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Hi One_TruePhoenix! I read what you posted 2 days ago too and I have time so I can answer you.

I want to see the cosmic-side of the PF explored because it's what it lacks to the original story. There are some tries with Chris Claremont on Rachel as Pheonix 2 but it was not like the other explorations of a cosmic beings like Silver Surfer as example.

The PF is not like other cosmic as we saw in the Marvelverse. At the beginning it was Jean's full potential as a Psi but after the retcon they made it a "Cosmic Force". I like the visual and powerset of the PF, it's just too much ICONIC to not be re-used by Marvel(of course not like in The Avengers of Aaron).

I like the PF but it's the lack of a true development from the writers that piss me off, not the PF itself.

The repetition I don't want is changing hosts.

For me it's clear that the Force always existed but not as Phoenix Force which is a creation of Jean Grey. JG is responsible of the Phoenix persona. When her friend Annie died, JG connected to the astral plan and she has just given the Force its bird-form because she saw the emblem of the Shiar Empire through the M'kraan cystal. The link was created but it's only when JG died that the Force merged with her. The Force is a source that every living beings used/have access but it was not a Cosmic Being itself before JG. The PF began to identify itself and be one with JG. When JG as Phoenix saved the universe in the M'kraan crystal its should be her and not a Phoenix duplicate. After this event it's a part of JG who returned with the X-Men but not as a whole being: her soul shattered whith the PF in multiple pieces when she saved the Universe the 1st time. So, it was a part of her who became Dark Phoenix and when DP comitted suicide and returned to the White Hot Room, the rest of her who tried to be reassembled reejected the DP's piece. The unfinished reassembled JG recreated herself in a Phoenix cocoon in the Jamaica Bay where she will be found. Whith the Morrison's run, the PF remerged with JG to reassemble all of the missing pieces. In Phoenix Resurrection, JG ultimately rejected the PF. ANY of her pieces are no longer tied to the PF! So, it explains why the PF acts so weirdly this time: it searches a purpose and a new host. It doesn't really need a host but it's the way the PF has ever acted since JG. The Phoenix searches is place in the Universe. It's the oldest force but the yougest cosmic entity at the same time! What is its role? It's the core of its new quest without JG.

I propose Alpha as the new host for the PF. This mutant was created by Magneto ans is propbably an Omega level mutant with psi skills. He lives in the garden of the Stranger where he is imprisoned by this last one. Alpha is someone who is in search of a purpose in life and I think he is suited for the newly PF.

I prefer they used the new PF's avatar like the use of the Silver Surfer in 70-90's where he had great space adventures but with some morals behind the stories.

Sorry, I know it was a long text. I want to add I prefer it's something related to JG's DNA: Jean can access to the unlimited astral plan force and merge with it(like her pink form which is redundant with PF), so her offsprings too. If not the case, what's the point with Jean's DNA if it's not so special? It's a part of her development and myth too. So not letting the Phoenix related to JG it's not doing justice for the character and powerful females representation who are always de-powered/regressed/killed and so on. Phoenix is JG, it's not Thor's hammer or Captain America's shield! This is the point where I can't be agreed with you.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@fridric:

Hey bro!

Thanks for your perspective! Me, I just want to discuss what are some new possibilities for the Phoenix as a "character" and concept. I don't really care about whether or not I'll agree/disagree with anyone; i just want to have a discussion about a marvelous subject that's, kinda poorly handled imo

I would also love more exploration of the Phoenix's cosmology, deeper revelation of its origins, and its full purpose. Something I don't like is how overly petty they'll make the Phoenix, and it doesn't act like some kind of age old powerful entity, but more bratty and easily persuade by mortals. That I don't want.

Now, I am familiar and aware of the Phoenix Force's, multi-retconned and consistently mangled origins. I don't pay much attention to what was retconned, I'm not from that era and so, I don't identify it with how it first came to be, under Claremont. I'd like to personally write a Phoenix story, toss out all the confusion from canon, pick out what I like best, and reconstruct its story, AND explore it the way I'd like to see. I don't want to JUST see its display of power, but the inner workings of it, and how the Phoenix and its host bond in such an intimate way. Again, not like what I've seen in the comics.

Here's where we part ways in ideology, but pls hear me out:

I LOVE the Phoenix Force... as an idea. I don't love the vast majority of its stories, arcs, narratives and overall development over the decades. The Phoenix is a symbol of transformation and simply, one becoming greater upon rising from their own "ashes". That's awesome symbology as the universal force of life, death and stuff. I know its been attached to Jean Grey, but Jean Grey is my LEAST favorite X-Man. That's the main reason why I can't relate to the Phoenix in its entirety.

I'd rather if they made the Phoenix Force equivalent to "The Force" from Star Wars. That way, it leaves the door open for others to tap into the Phoenix, and become one with it on an intimate level. Luke Skywalker was a powerful force user, but NOT the ONLY powerful force user. Making the Phoenix, a COSMIC ENTITY, which should be above something like "genetics", related to Jean Grey, is like George Lucas introducing the stupid midi-chlorians, as part of being able to use the Force. The Force is relatable, because its made in a way for ANYONE with the possibility to be sensitive to it, and BUILD their connection to it. Not bc some dumb biology, which thankfully Disney retconned.

The Phoenix being just Jean Grey, Jean Grey, Jean grey (and all versions of her), makes it unrelatable, and... I'd LOVE to see myself, as becoming the Phoenix within myself. I can't with how the canon story goes. It's so exclusive, and made distant. Not welcoming, not offering you the possibiltiy to become the Phoenix in your own right. and the fact its so over the top powerful, and master of universes and stuff... makes it even more unrelatable and uninteresting, for me.

I like your idea of Alpha becoming Phoenix, with a vers of the Phoenix seeking a new path. That definitely would open the door for something fresh and new.

My choice would be Gambit. Weird choice on the surface, but hear me out once more:

Gambit is a very relatable character imho; he's a character with a dark past, messy upbringing, he suffered, he was trafficked as a child, became part of the Guild as a thief. He has some skewed ideals and morals, but is pure hearted deep down. He's the best candidate as a character that needs constant evolution of self. The Phoenix as a symbol of transformation, revolution and such, is PERFECT for Gambit's own development. Becoming Phoenix would force Gambit to face a lot of his inner demons in order to control the cosmic power, and evolve with it, and learn to make better choices. Also, a story like this gives more credence to the Phoenix's curiosity of mortal nature, and learning from it (after becoming one with him).

The Phoenix would be attracted to someone who's in a constant state of evolution, is a channel of the purest form of energy, and possesses a pure heart (despite inner chaos).

Secondly, Gambit's powers ACTUALLY MATCHES THE REAL PHOENIX. The real Phoenix of mythology, is a kinetic fiery being, like Gambit is; of fire, spark of life that's raw, wild and untamed. All that matches Gambit's raw persona and power. His kinetic energy should actually allow the Phoenix the best means of physical (and astral) expression, as kinetic energy, from the perspective of mysticism, is the fundamental force of existence. This makes Gambit's powers, severely underrated, creatively untapped (by writers) yet beyond powerful. Even keeping up with the "psionic nexus" bit, Gambit would STILL possess the best synchronicity with the Phoenix, being its best physical embodiement. Speaking to mysticism, and even some science.

And if we wanna bring up genetics, Gambit kinetically charges objects with raw energy. His GENES allows him to charge energy into objects. You can't get more Phoenix-like than that, compared to everyone else's powers.

I also found out a FUCKING awesome detail, a CANAON detail, about Gambit's character, that directly relates to the Phoenix Force's height of its power. It's the most AMAZING discovery and I cannot WAIT to bring it out in the form of a fanfic. Its like... the most insane thing, its all but proof that Gambit is the rightful character to be the Phoenix in the first place.

One last thing... Gambit is really cool, BADASS, and mixing his shady dealings with the Phoenix, can go cosmic/astral level. He's got such an awesome persona, and that would make the Phoenix super cool, bring the Phoenix to a down to earth level, making it something you can identify with, and have serious fun writing some wild paranormal/supernatural adventures.

Despite the writers poorly writing Gambit, he's the perfect opportunity of a character seeking his place, and to make him Phoenix, and have them united/merged as one, seeking his/their place, thru some wild, BADASS and awesome Gambit styled, cosmic adventures... I'd love that more than anything ever from Marvel. Well, at least the X-men.

I know the Phoenix is precious to most Jean Grey fans, and that they don't want to see them part. However... at least there exist those stories of Jean Grey as Phoenix. But what about new comers, next generation X-Men fans, that want something fresh, new and different? Give us a version of Phoenix for US to identify with, see ourselves in and relate to. And don't give us a half witted story, put as much heart and effort in it, as you would Jean Grey.

I do hope that... I can inspire such thing to happen, and that even as I attempt to write my own Phoenix Gambit fanfiction and fan art that, maybe something new would finally happen :)

(I'm also sorry for the long reply LOL)

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marvelfan1992

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#4 marvelfan1992  Online

here's a new idea that Marvel hasn't tried:

stop using the phoenix

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McFlicky

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I want the phoenix force to go away for a while because marvel uses it way too much

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SirKaboom13

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Thor hosts it.

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fridric

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Hi! Aaron didn't do justice to the PF. I'm not against another avatar because JG seems definitively rejecting it and a new path for it with full of possibilities but not a x-(wo-)man. So, that's why I chose Alpha. The problem is the bad writing of the PF the last decace(Hope/Phoenix 5/etc) that I dislike. It destroyed the Phoenix as a new concept to be explored. My only regret is in that new era, it will be done without JG and Rachel.

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#8  Edited By TheInsufferable  Online

here's a new idea that Marvel hasn't tried:

stop using the phoenix

Hope the Marvel spies see this one.

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One_TruePhoenix

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Thor hosts it.

Hasn't Thor been a host before? Or am I getting it confused with something else?

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One_TruePhoenix

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@fridric said:

Hi! Aaron didn't do justice to the PF. I'm not against another avatar because JG seems definitively rejecting it and a new path for it with full of possibilities but not a x-(wo-)man. So, that's why I chose Alpha. The problem is the bad writing of the PF the last decace(Hope/Phoenix 5/etc) that I dislike. It destroyed the Phoenix as a new concept to be explored. My only regret is in that new era, it will be done without JG and Rachel.

Aaron is notorious for handling the PF so poorly. However, I won't blame him entirely as, there's the unspoken law to not allow creativity with the PF, due to Jean being it's "one true host". Even with his limits, he still did a bad job. To me, the one true host thing needs to be fully retconned. Allow whomever that deeply connects to the Phoenix, deeply connect and become one with it in their right. They could become a new White Phoenix, or a new evolution entirely that shows their mastery of the Phoenix, and Creation as a whole. GIVE the writer full creative power to do what they want.

Alpha would be interesting to see. He's a new face, a face I'm not too familiar with, and I think would be a great way to break the mold in how writers interpret the Phoenix.

Jean and Rachel had their time being Phoenix and exploring its power (at least for me). Continuing to use them is creates repetition. Bringing in a new face, allowing the Phoenix to become one and the same with someone else, opens new possibilities and new exploration of said cosmic being.

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HAWK2916

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A version of Gambit called New Son or New Sun defeated Phoenix in his own reality. Making any and everybody host to the Phoenix cheapens it.

But just to play along because this doesn't seem to go away no matter how much people hate it......

1. Just make Phoenix an elder god and since this elder god is one of life and rebirth it attaches itself to mutants as they evolve. It can be the god of mutants somewhat like the Panher goddess Bast

2. A disembodied Celestial. Phoenix was stripped of tye celestial armor and is an incorporeal being that wonders thru the universe

3. Make it an ancient psionic Shiar weapon of mass destruction like the Hecatomb. This weapon was created to annex worlds but was so powerful it was ordered destroyed but its creators didnt but sent it to earth

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One_TruePhoenix

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@hawk2916: Eh, I know of New Sun and... those who bring him up as I mention Gambit becoming Phoenix, are only discussing him for his power set. My reasoning for Gambit to become Phoenix, has nothing to do with making Gambit powerful, but about giving "The Phoenix" concept a new angle and unexplored direction. Plus, New Sun was a story I actually didn't like. Kinda want it retconned.

I NEVER said that EVERYONE should be eligible to become Phoenix. It should be select who becomes Phoenix, but that select few need to be diverse and versatile, so that the Phoenix isn't limited and restricted by narrative. Just as giving "anybody" the Phoenix has cheapened it, so has limiting it to shit, to Jean Grey, and all her copies.

I chose Gambit to be one of the select few, because of how much he actually matches the Phoenix myth, AND he's a good contrast to a character like Jean Grey. I'd love to see myself as one who could become Phoenix, but Jean Grey is the least relatable character for me (and quite a number of others). Gambit would give the Phoenix that variety, spice and freshness that's a break from Jean's narrative.

And I wouldn't want a "cheap" story written for Gambit (like Kid Omega, whom I hated), do a GOOD job writers. Personally, he's the perfect candidate to represent the constant state of transformation akin to the Phoenix, and I'd love if the story would (retcon the "one true host" bit) allow Gambit (while as Phoenix) to have to make a major sacrifice (let's say to prove himself to his former X-Men comrades that lost faith in him for whatever reasons], and this leads him to become let's say... "The Phoenix of Light" his akin to White Phoenix. As one and the same with the Phoenix, in his own way, Gambit uses his now unlimited powers to change the X-Men's fate for the best, without them even realizing it. It'd make a great story of how even a scoundrel thief's heart be golden, and even if everyone disowned him, he still loves them and see them to represent the rightness he wishes to be a part of, and thus bites whatever necessary to preserve that. I WANT that kind of story so much, I could bleed for it.

Of your suggestions, I like the first one best.

It does bring the Phoenix down from its cosmic high seat (which might be a good thing), and that set up would change the course of its narrative, to hopefully give us something DIFFERENT with this concept.

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HAWK2916

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@one_truephoenix: its understandable not to like the New Sun story hell I dont like the Phoenix stories. Im of the mindset that you dont need a possession by some entity to find the goldenhearted goodness of a situation or character. I have one Phoenix story and basically its a redo or retcon if you will of how I would have done the original thing. I kind if combine seceral elements from stories and even some unused plot ideas from old writers. I may post it here or dm you. Dont know if you'll like it or not but it definitely does not make it a cosmic thing.

Someone else in these forums cant remember if it was @ursaber or @pyrofn mentioned the Phoenix being a level or classification of mutant abilities sort of like Alpa level, Omega level and maybe Phoenix level. I thought that was interesting

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One_TruePhoenix

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#14  Edited By One_TruePhoenix

@hawk2916 said:

@one_truephoenix: its understandable not to like the New Sun story hell I dont like the Phoenix stories. Im of the mindset that you dont need a possession by some entity to find the goldenhearted goodness of a situation or character. I have one Phoenix story and basically its a redo or retcon if you will of how I would have done the original thing. I kind if combine seceral elements from stories and even some unused plot ideas from old writers. I may post it here or dm you. Dont know if you'll like it or not but it definitely does not make it a cosmic thing.

Someone else in these forums cant remember if it was @ursaber or @pyrofn mentioned the Phoenix being a level or classification of mutant abilities sort of like Alpa level, Omega level and maybe Phoenix level. I thought that was interesting

I don't mind the Phoenix NOT being a cosmic thing, and I honestly would like to know more about such interpretation. Maybe it could open my eyes to a better way of coming up with a better reinvention of it, than my own thought process :)

My reason for not liking New Sun, it was simply a carrot dangled at Gambit fans. There was no heart in that, and... Gambit didn't rly accomplish anything with his character development. Hell, they even depowered him in the end so, no respect for the New Sun arch :(

I kinda leaned towards that idea as, I love the Phoenix of mythology, and the idea of bonding with such cosmic entity is a pretty cool idea to me. Its sad that writers have fucked it to shit over the decades to the point, a growing number don't like the Phoenix, or don't like as a cosmic power.

I remember someone mentioning the Phoenix being the ultimate level of a Mutant's power, past Omega level. While I also found that idea to be interesting and a good approach, i fear writers getting stuipd with letting too many mutants reach this potential, thus you get the "everyone gets the Phoenix" problem all over again.

to me, the major problem of the Phoenix's narrative is the lack of creative balance, as a whole. Meaning, they need to retcon its restrictions and limitations, YET create a specific, few set of heroes to wear the mantle of Phoenix (cosmic entity or not), BUT are all diverse of each other, NOT one being more special than others. That's the start of the Phoenix going on the right track, that's just me.

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HAWK2916

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@one_truephoenix: ok so my one and only Phoenix story is a retcon or reimagining if you will of the original. I get rid of the Phoenix/Dar Phoenix cosmic stuff with the Shiar involvement and all. I suppose the Shiar could be drawn to earth later based on the power exhibited by the Phoenix but the Shiar space opera stuff never really appealed to me though thinking in terms of other fans I suppose I could include some of it in the right setting. Anyway here's what I would have done and I've borrowed ideas from other places some even from posters here:

After a mission to earth's space orbit to rescue Jean and Scott from Stephen Lang' facility, the Xmen try to get back to earth but the radiation from the solar flares and reentry into earths atmosphere endangers the whole team. Jean uses her tk to pilot the space shuttle safely back to earth while the rest if the team is housed in life support pods but her powers were pushed to the limit enhanced. The shuttle lands in Jamaica Bay and Jean emerges after the team thought her dead and now she is called Phoenix as a new codename. Her telekinetic power level is now immeasurable as she seems to be getting steadily getting more powerful. Her feat in landing the shuttle safely thru reentry in earth's orbit didnt go unnoticed as it caused the equivalent of a psychic emp temporarily rendering all psionic powers mute. As she becomes more powerful and she's more reckless she's also being manipulated by the Hellfire club and Mastermind with the help of Emma Frost in an attempt for him to gain a leadership spot within the Inner Circle. In a showdown between the Xmen trying to save her and the Hellfire club Jean has a fit of anger and unleashes a surge of power that causes an explosion and incinerates 600,000 in upstate NY. ( like in Mike Carey's Age of X)(she doesnt fly off and eat a star). Xavier quickly acts to hide Jean away as the incident has caused a new and more intense wave of hatred and fear for mutants. He does a psychic lobotomy supposedly stripping her of her powers and placing psychic blocks in her mind. At first Jean is sort of suicidal over her situation because she has no powers and all she can do is live with the lives shes ended. Unfortunately she is one day horribly injured in a murder attempted by a vengeful Mastermind, while the Xmen are off on a mission. Being nearly killed the psychic blocks fail and her previously thought stripped powers return in full force now she reemerges driven by nothing but emotion and rage and guilt. Very similar to AVX, Phoenix goes mad with power seeing herself as Godlike and trying to force her version of right on the world. She brooks no question of her actions. Any who oppose are tortured and it doesn't help that she even tries to mindwipe the President into being pro-mutant, which makes things much worse. In a final showdown in a moment of clarity she is able to assert some control for a second and allows herself to be killed she's disintegrated. Cyclops being an energy manipulator and absorber had been absorbing energy off of her all along. Xavier has implanted a device or figured a way to overcome Cyclops mental defenses in order to take control. Via sustained attack from select Xmen to keep her off balance and unbeknownst to Cyclops since he would never attack her, Xavier takes over Cyclops' mind at a crucial moment during the battle in which Phoenix is wounded by the others and only her and Cyclops are standing together. In this moment Scott under Xaviers control fires a fatal optic blast that disintegrates her. In the aftermath Cyclops leaves the Xmen.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@hawk2916:

I actually like this take on the Phoenix. But allow me some time to do a better response to it ^_^

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One thing I posted in another thread was to reveal the fact the Phoenix Force was three sibling, in we can call it that, cosmic forces. The inspiration for them would be the four animals asociated with the four cardinal points in eastern asian cultures, the Red Phoenix associated with the South, the White Tiger with the West, the Yellow Dragon with the East and the Black Tortoise with the North. Each animal is also associated with an element, the Phoenix with the Fire (ofc), the Dragon with the Earth, the Tiger with metal and the Tortoise with Water. And other three X-Men members would be the hostes: Scott the Dragon Force, Logan the Tiger Force and Storm the Tortoise Force.

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One_TruePhoenix

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#18  Edited By One_TruePhoenix

@obscureobsidian said:

One thing I posted in another thread was to reveal the fact the Phoenix Force was three sibling, in we can call it that, cosmic forces. The inspiration for them would be the four animals asociated with the four cardinal points in eastern asian cultures, the Red Phoenix associated with the South, the White Tiger with the West, the Yellow Dragon with the East and the Black Tortoise with the North. Each animal is also associated with an element, the Phoenix with the Fire (ofc), the Dragon with the Earth, the Tiger with metal and the Tortoise with Water. And other three X-Men members would be the hostes: Scott the Dragon Force, Logan the Tiger Force and Storm the Tortoise Force.

That idea is super cool, and would be a great way to give the Phoenix almost like a "soft-reboot". It also takes some of the overbearing attention writers put on the Phoenix, breaking it up to involve other characters is an awesome idea. I also would definitely have two males, two females like that. I would however change it up to make it uniquely Marvel's cosmology, and not necessarily appear heavily reliant on being Eastern myth. I'd also pair characters that closely matches the animals chosen.

For example, I'd call them something like "The Elder Forces" which are the original four abstracts, that make up the reality of the whole Multiverse. The kind of animals I'd choose would be the Sea Dragon, The Wolf, The Raven, and The Phoenix. Those are more culturally generic, and easier to pair characters with.

Storm would be the Sea Dragon/Dragon Force, her element is Water. In many cultures, the Sea Dragon/Serpent is the primordial sea that existed before the physical world, and that'd play better into Storm's goddess arc.

Wolverine is the Wolf/Wolf Force, his element Earth. There's lots of myths pertaining to the Wolf being the symbol of nature's most raw power, so the Wolf being Earth, and Wolverine (who has that wild instinctual nature) is perfect.

The Raven/Raven Force is Jean Grey, element is Air. The Raven is a symbol of foresight, is the messenger and is the symbol of prophecy. They are also warriors of wit, and not brute strength. The Raven is a better match for psionic power than the Phoenix is, and so I'd make Jean Grey the Raven.

Lastly the Phoenix/Phoenix Force, element is Fire, I'd make... Gambit. Gambit fits the Phoenix's mythology way more than Jean Grey. I'd make the Phoenix the power of the most raw, fundamental energy of the Multiverse, granting it the power over all forms of energy. Gambit being someone who LITERALLY generates raw kinetic energy, would be the ultimate energy manipulator.

WOW you gave me a great idea, and I LOVE THIS SO FUCKING MUCH! All I need to do is pair each of them with their respective principles, Matter, Time, Energy and Space. And making them sibling entities is boss, and grants a new meaning for the cosmology. okay so I now have this atm!:

Sea Dragon/Dragon Force: element Water, principle is... Time? Power, Primordial Wellspring of All Life.
One True Host: Storm, will seek out other water/weather types as potential hosts.

Wolf/"Wolf Force": element Earth, principle is Matter. Power, the raw force of Cosmos' Nature.
One True Host: Wolverine, will seek out other earthy, "animalistic" types as potential hosts.

Raven/Raven Force: element Air, principle Space. Power, Cosmic Psionic and Psychic Nexus.
One True Host: Jean Grey, will seek out other psychic types as potential hosts.

Phoenix/Phoenix Force: element Fire, principle Energy. Power of Life and Death, and the constant renewal of Energy, and is the Energy Nexus of the Multiverse.
One True Host: Gambit, will seek other energy types as potential hosts.

THANK YOU SO MUCH. I have a story now :D

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IndomitableRegal

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Jean dies permanently. That would be new.

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One_TruePhoenix

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Jean dies permanently. That would be new.

LOL well... that would be new, but I wouldn't kill her off. I'd simply retcon the Phoenix's original development, reform its concept and narrative, then hand the mantle of Phoenix to a new hero, and let them fly with it hence forth.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@obscureobsidian: hey there, I had replied to you with thanks, but then I deleted this post by accident. Just letting you know and see what I added 😃

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HAWK2916

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That stuff sounds like Avatar or some old school Captain Planet stuff. But I see you guys are fans of the more cosmic sude of stuff in Marvel so a more grounded universe won't really appeal to you all that much.

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Bring back the Goblin Force as an enemy for Phoenix avatars to fight

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One_TruePhoenix

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@hawk2916 said:

That stuff sounds like Avatar or some old school Captain Planet stuff. But I see you guys are fans of the more cosmic sude of stuff in Marvel so a more grounded universe won't really appeal to you all that much.

I DO like when Marvel is rly grounded however since they have gone super cosmic with some characters, i'd simply like to see someone ELSE from the X-Men give the cosmic ultra power treatment, with their narrative.

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One_TruePhoenix

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Bring back the Goblin Force as an enemy for Phoenix avatars to fight

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I read a little about the Goblin and it rly didn't appeal to me. Maybe a rewrite AND new name, it could be something rly cool. It could also be combined with the elements of bete noir, to make it a good comparison to the Phoenix. only thing is the Goblin is tied to Madelyn Priors story so if you're gonna switch up the Phoenix's host, you'll need to do something different with Goblin and i'm not sure, fans would like that much change.

for me, I want a NEW, NON-Grey ultra powerful Phoenix host in a story arc of their own, and to do that, creating a narrative with elements that trace back to Jean might be problematic. Idunno that's just what I'm thinking could I be wrong tho???

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darthphoenix

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so the phoenix chooses an avenger as an avatar. it's x-men's turn to throw tantrums on the avengers. avx 2.0 ... in the end jean tears the phoenix force from the new avatar. the pf tries to go to jean but she refuses and asks it to leave earth again.

Days after, rachel confessed that she wanted the Phoenix force. Jean tells her that she doesnt need the Phoenix force because she is the one true Phoenix. Jean unlocks rachel's powers and Rachel got to tap on the Phoenix power again.

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One_TruePhoenix

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so the phoenix chooses an avenger as an avatar. it's x-men's turn to throw tantrums on the avengers. avx 2.0 ... in the end jean tears the phoenix force from the new avatar. the pf tries to go to jean but she refuses and asks it to leave earth again.

Days after, rachel confessed that she wanted the Phoenix force. Jean tells her that she doesnt need the Phoenix force because she is the one true Phoenix. Jean unlocks rachel's powers and Rachel got to tap on the Phoenix power again.

Ugh... that accomplishes nothing to me.

Whats the point of even having the Phoenix have a new avatar only for it to WIND RIGHT BACK up with the Greys? and even that ending... it's borrows from stuff that already happened in comics, therefore, nothing new happens, its just repetition again. thats the problem when the Phoenix does have another host, that host isn't allowed to develop their own connection, meaning and purpose with the Phoenix. No i wouldnt want the Phoenix to be ripped from someone, have the new "someone" develop a powerful connection and accomplish something great, and that being their legacy with the Phoenix. why is that a problem?

the whole point in me even asking this question, is to discover new grounds, and something cutting edge for the Phoenix narrative. if writing a story where the Phoenix does gain a new host, only for the Phoenix to wind right back up with Rachel or Jean, totally would discredit, undermine and invalidate the new narrative.

i hope i didnt sound abrasive, esp to those who love Jean/Rachel as Phoenix. but as a Phoenix fan that wants something new, revolutionary i'm asking for a new host, that has nothing to do with the Greys, and is allowed to be powerful, unlimited and unhinged with deserving saga of their own.

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darthphoenix

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@one_truephoenix: The point is why give it to someone who doesnt have a true connection to the Phoenix when rachel can weild it easily and add so much power to her and the whole x-men/mutantkind.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@darthphoenix said:

@one_truephoenix: The point is why give it to someone who doesnt have a true connection to the Phoenix when rachel can weild it easily and add so much power to her and the whole x-men/mutantkind.

The narrative can change (and it needs to at this point), its all fictional, and subject to whomever writes it. Just like Jason Aaron wrote Jane Foster to be more worthy of Mjolnir, and better at wielding it than Thor himself, a new writer should be granted the freedom to rewrite the Phoenix, and allow someone brand new (non-Grey), achieve the ultimate connection to the Phoenix, and who knows... we may get a host that's the new most powerful host, and experience something awesome, and something we've been missing out on.

For example... there's another aspect of the Phoenix, that grants someone NEW, full connection to the Phoenix. Since its an idea I'm using/egging on to happen, let's use Gambit for this example. He wields kinetic energy, something that is much closer to the Phoenix of myth. This he could discover grants him a pure connection to the cosmic entity, and the cosmic entity gets to develop in a brand new way, and we get to explore a different power, that is EQUALLY powerful as psychic power, and get a new experience. And let, whom so ever, be granted mantle of Phoenix, develop their own close relationship, unhinged from the suffocation that is having to absolutely be connected to the Greys. I really hope in the future, this "one-true-host" thing could drop off, and free the Phoenix to being more than what it is now.

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I don't know where it stands right now, don't follow Aaron's crap, but I'd like to sort of recentralize and streamline the idea that has already been there in the ether.

The idea that Phoenix is this primal force that "redistributes" and "stores" the psionic totality of the universe. And like Galactus and Inbetweener, I'd like to see it as a relative mediator to dichotomic abstracts. That said, I'm not sure they are related in their function. I always thought that the idea of Galan being "balance bringer" when all he does is destroy a mere planet here and there was a far fetched idea, so I thought to make it as if the drive isn't just to eat a planet just because but to specifically target planets of high psionic activity so there won't be too many "psionically developed" societies cause that would potentially endanger the universe in conflicts psionically active societies ALWAYS tend to provoke just by design. A kind of universal constant. So in a sense, Phoenix and Galan intersect in greater universal scheme in this concept.