Unpopular X-comics opinions

This is the thread were you can share your sentiments about things you think other fans tend to disagree with.

So, here are mine:

• Morrison's take on the X-men was sh!tty and all the villain-sues he created were one-dimensional and boring
• Killing off Scott, Prof X, and Jean in the end of X3 was a damn unexpected and quality move
• Apocalypse should be a Thanos-level threat
• New X-Men are the best generation of X-youngsters
• The more morally grey character is, the better he/she is/becomes
• Exodus should be used instead of Magneto filling the role of a "sympathetic villain" from now on
• Pretty much right after DPS the concept of HFC was ruined in the end becoming absolutely tasteless
• Someone must commit genocide on the Brood, taking Broo with them as well
• Silly mutants are lame
• Mutant metaphor shouldn't stand just for "civil rights" and "minorities"
• Cyclops was a lames@$$ character before Decimation
• Magneto is best when he is balancing between anti-villain, anti-hero and even hero
• The idea behind "Havok's speech" had a good precedent, but was ruined by Remender himself
• Jason Aaron is the worst thing that happened to X-men in the last decade
• JGS is a degradation
• X-men are idiots these days
• Gillen should be back writing Uncanny
• Remender's X-force is highly overrated with its "woe is me, i'm so murderer" moralizing crap
• Killing off Wolverine will be refreshing, but thinking about the upcoming event of his resurrection overshadows it

-Most X-Men history outside of Claremonts run, Morrisons run and Whedons run isn't even worth reading.
-Despite being the period of time the franchise was incredibly popular, the actual early 90s era of X-Men was horrible
-Bone Claws are dumb
-Cyclops only really became an interesting an integral character over the past ten years or so (He has been around since 1963)
-Cable seems like he struggles to be relevant
-Gambit is a lame character
-Magneto should be mentor of the X-Men by now and the characters that were in training in the 80s like the New Mutants should be the centric characters now
-X-Men films like X2 and DOFP have more substance and depth and are way better than most comic book films.
-Morrisons vision of mutation was askew and pretentious
-Peter Davids writing is often preachy.
-Age of Apocalypse really isn't that great.

Everything was going well until this :(

For me:

• Morrisson run was terrible.
• Cable will be very popular when his power are finally fix. After 10 years or so. Right now he's nearly irrelevant.
• Magneto is actually a better hero than all the X-Men
• DoFP is the best X-Men movie
• Remender X-Force was bad outside of the Apocalypse Solution and the Dark Angel Saga
• Beast should be in jail
• Aaron new x-kids and Morrisson new x-kids are dumb and should have never been created.
• The New Mutants should take a better part in the X-Verse. Sure they are not popular, but adding 2-3 of them with actual team is a great idea. Surge, Hellion, Elixir, etc.
• Bendis and Aaron are in the top 5 of X-Men worst writers.
• Cyclops is a better character without Jean
• Colossus, Iceman and Bishop should be a bigger part of the X-Men.
• Mr Sinister is the best villain outside of Magneto

I'm pretty sure that's not an unpopular opinion.

I've seen some people on the Vine saying Bendis was a very good X-writer. I just wanted to make a point.

I'm thinking the reason some of these are unpopular is because they leave no room for middle ground, but i'll play along.

• Morrison's run is JUST ok, as most of the good is negated by the bad.
• The best period in X-Men would've been from 2004-2008(going by what fans want)... but no one talks about a lot of books from that time.
• The original X-Factor had the best characterization of the Original X-Men prior to 2001.
• Jean Grey was one of the better written X-characters between her resurrection and the start of the 90's team, and again during Morrison's run.
• A lot of Magneto's actions make him seem unsympathetic and extremely short sited, and make him a lot less effective as a character.
• Bendis isn't nearly as bad as people say. Though he isn't great either.
• Aaron's ideas and creations aren't bad, but the fact that he did nothing with them makes their existence pointless.
• Storm is pretentious.

• Jean has been made into a Mary Sue Character since her first return (esp by morrison) and should say dead
• Morrison run is one of the worst overall
• Despite the good stories wheldon wrote his inability to make a deadline should keep people from ever wanting him back
• Bendis really isnt as bad as people say
• Aaron doesnt really suck either, just all the mutants he made does (so did morrisons btw)
• Phantom X should of never been created
• The X verse will be better without wolverine (at least now he used to be a great character)
• The JGS is stupid and i hope it blows up (and stays that way)
• No X men title SHOULD EVER have a members name infront of it (ala wolverine and the x men)
• Some times I want to slap storm
• Generation X was the best student group ever written in the X verse
• the Original New Mutants and Gen X should actually be on X teams by now
• No one character should ever be in two titles

thats all for now anyway lol

They have lazy origins and are a boring, convoluted mess of a subgenre.

I ruined it all!!!!

Seriously, I never understood its prestige reputation. It's just a really long "What If" story. There is nothing terribly original about it, as the whole "villain takes over world if _____ character was never around" has been present in just about every comic story for a long time. All of the villains, albeit cool looking, are just bland and one dimensional. It makes no sense either, how does Xavier being killed lead to Apocalypses ascension?? I mean yeah, there would have been no X-Men to stop him but Xavier had nothing to do with the rest of the Marvel Universe getting super powers, surely the Avengers could have stopped him from taking over. Finally, most of what happens in all of those stories has no point as all of it is erased once the timeline is corrected....Oh, did you give a sh*t about Rogue and Magnetos relationship?? Too bad, it never happened now.

It did..

You know what I mean.....

No, I don't really cared about Magneto and Rogue relation. However, I think AoA Magneto and AoA Cyclops are two extremely great characters. Sure the story had no impact and the start of the AoA era was quickly explain. But as a standalone story, AoA is one of the best X-Story IMO. Best story not written by Claremont IMO. Some character had more character development than most of their 616 version. AoA Iceman was far better than the 616 one. Just like Jean Grey, Quicksilver, Wanda, Beast, Storm, etc. But that's just a matter of opinion.

I agree about the development, some characters were way more interesting than their 616 counterparts, though all of it was nullified after the timeline was restored. I would never say its a bad story, seeing the X-Men randomized into new teams with new characters in a dystopian world is interesting. I just don't understand the massive hype it gets, people always go ape for it and I just never thought it was anything special.

Well, a lot of my opinions have been said already, but here I go anyways. In my opinion...

• Jubilee has never been an interesting character and I still have no idea why people like her at all
• The Jean Grey School is stupid
• Wolverine and the X-men is one of the worst titles I've ever read
• Jason Aaron is a horrible writer
• Battle of The Atom was an awful, stupid, unnecessary event
• There are so few genuinely good instances of writing in X-men titles that I sometimes feel kind of embarassed being a fan of the X-men at all
• Charles Xavier is (for lack of a better word) a jerk and doesn't deserve the respect he gets in the Marvel Universe
• I don't care how good First Class might be, I'm never watching it
• Remender's X-Force was genuinely awful
• Cyclops WAS one of the most interesting characters in the X-men franchise before Schism happened
• Storm is pretentious and over-rated
• Beast is a total dick and deserves none of the respect he seems to get
• The New Mutants should get way more attention than they're getting
• Chamber is not, and never has been, an interesting character
• Generation X was, objectively, kind of terrible
• Husk (as written by Aaron) is horribly characterized. I really don't think Aaron knows anything about her history
• Ideally Cannonball and Sunspot should not be on the Avengers, but there's really no other place for them in the X-men franchise right now
• Wolverine is a massive hypocrite and is being terribly written
• Jean Grey sucks and has never been an interesting character

Have you read all the story? With all the ties-in? If yes, then maybe it's just not for you.

and I still think that:

• the late 80's/Outback era/replacement X-men comics were pretty bad and totally over-rated compared to either the early 80's or the early 90's X-men.
• the original Genosha story was far superior to X-Tinction Agenda.
• both Jim Lee's character redesigns and his art in general were pretty overrated. his costume designs were kind of just bad, and he could only draw like two faces.
• All of the X-men cartoons kind of suck, yes, even X-Men: The Animated Series
• Age of Apocalypse kind of sucked. Cool idea, just horribly executed.
• The Uncanny X-Men #190 - An Age Undreamed Of was better than AoA.
• Lobdell was underrated,
• Morrison was the best X-writer since Lobdell,
• Morrison is still overrated, Whedon was way better than Morrison,
• and Bendis is the best writer the X-men have had since.
• House of M was a great series in itself, and the only team up event the X-men have been involved in that was any good besides the original Secret Wars.
• But I actually do like some X-men characters being on the Avengers, and really think that Uncanny Avengers is both among the best Avengers series and among the best books marvel's putting out at the moment.
• while I do like the New X-Men,I don't think they're any more interesting than Generation X, Quire, Oya, Armor, Broo, or any of the characters from Bendis' Uncanny X-men.
• I also don't think the New X-Men are any more original or less silly than the students created by Morrison, Bendis, or even Aaron.

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I don't get the Jason Aaron hate here. Yeah, his Wolverine and the X-Men is bad, but his other X-Men related stuff like his Wolverine run have been pretty damn good.

@oldnightcrawler:

and he could only draw like two faces.

That's kinda always been a problem for Jim Lee. Even looking at his DC work, guys like Superman and Batman look exactly the same facially speaking....

As an X-writer or in general?

lol may I ask why?

@oldnightcrawler said:

and I still think that:

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I know it's you opinion and all, but you really consider Bendis' generation more distinct than NXM? You also forgot to add Hellions.

@adamtrmm: Sorry, I should have specified as an X-writer.

I refuse to watch First Class for two reasons- Kevin Bacon and January Jones. Bacon as Shaw doesn't make sense in my opinion, and January Jones has all the acting abilities of wet cardboard and by all accounts royally messed up in her role as Emma Frost (also her diamond form looked ridiculous).

High fives to these. High Fives I say!!!

Also, the Kuhlan Gath story is an underrated classic?? That story and others around that time like the Secret Wars 2 nonsense is why I was so glad the Mutant Massacre ended that era of X-Men. Claremont was still able to tell good stories, but he needed some fresh characters and villains.

Huhuh.

• Bendis and and Aaron are by and large the worst X-Writers to have ever been associated with the franchise. Their works in concert have helped to derail, devalue and degrade the works of progressive innovation that their esteemed predecessors have sought to uphold and if they never come back, it'll be too bloody soon.
• Gillen's run was boring. It's nice if you wanted a Sinister solo/anthological arc on Sinister et al villains, but that's about it. It's boring and overrated.
• Cyclops stopped progressing as character when Whedon, in one fell swoop, decided to retrograde the X-verse by having them revert to the traditional approach instead of going for something new. I.e, Cyclops is boring and bland.
• Whedon's run was highly overrated. A good ode to Claremont's work in that it was characterization heavy, but that's about it.
• Emma Frost is in her early 50s at best.
• Colossus is boring.
• The X-Men are a theatrical mess right now. The only good titles are those that're on the fringe, including the solos while the main titles are either directionless, boring or a plain waste of space.
• Wolverine's character, after years of being shoved down everyone's throat, is irredeemable. Either keep him in a Claremont/Hama-penned solo after his 1 minute death or be done with it, permanently.
• Kyle and Yost's run on NXM is highly overrated and the run itself isn't all that special. It's just one big PTSD slasher flick with little kids getting killed or almost getting killed every other arc with poor character development and a limited prospect.
• The only thing the X-Movies are around for are pretty tumblr image sets for people to go ga ga over. Material itself is pretty crap.
• The X-Men got real bad real quick after Claremont's final run on Uncanny. Everything after that has been a litany of same same same.
• The fans are the reason for a lot of the bad that's happening right now.

Most people didn't like the lighthearted tone and direction (or the cast) of his Wolverine & the X-Men, but even though I wasn't crazy about the execution of the book, it was at least distinct and actually did have some issues I really enjoyed.

• The first 3 issue arc was great, and even up to issue 8 I thought the book showed a lot of promise.
• issue #17 - Wolverine's Secret Weapon was just great,
• issue #24 - Ain't No Sin To Be Glad You're Alive was solid, and the Savage Learning arc was pretty good except that it was brought down by having Wolverine's brother as the villain. Still, 25, 27, and 28 were all a lot of fun.
• and issues #38-40 with Cyclops and Wolverine breaking into SHIELD while the students protect the school was actually a very underrated arc, in my opinion. Though, by that point I can see why people wouldn't have been paying attention.

That there was only those 16 issues (out of 42) that I actually enjoyed is why I don't consider it to be a great book overall; every time a good issue would bring me back, the following arc or issue would generally turn me off again. Even being able to appreciate the distinctness of the book for what it was couldn't save it from 9 (!) tie-in issues with Avengers Vs. X-Men and weak stories like The Greatest Freakshow on Earth, The Hellfire Saga, or Battle of the Atom.

That said, between the issues that were good, the fact that some people like things I don't, and the general distinctness of the book overall, I wouldn't be surprised if this series was a cult classic for people years from now.

I both agree and disagree with everything posted so far. Except I didn't particularly like Whedon's run with the X-Men.

Came up with 5 more

• Fraction had some of the best action and team moments in the series...and would've been better recieved if there were another team book at the time.
• Gillen didn't do nearly enough in his run to get the praise he does
• Jean and Cyclops' relationship, despite their numerous offspring; never had as much effect on the narrative as Cyclops and Emma's
• Rogue and Xavier's runs in Legacy were both better then Legion's, but Legions was better written.
• All New X-Factor isn't in the top three for current X-Books (including solos), and isn't nearly as good as Bendis' Uncanny.

@adamtrmm said:

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I know it's you opinion and all, but you really consider Bendis' generation more distinct than NXM? You also forgot to add Hellions.

I wouldn't say that Bendis' new mutants are individually more (or less) original than the New X-men (including the Hellions squad and later recruits), but as a group I find them much more distinct. It's not like any of the New X-men were terribly original themselves, and Bendis' characters appeal to me in the way that none of their powers are especially combat oriented, which as a group makes them distinct.

moreover, the story that unites them (about being outlaws recruited by wanted criminals) stands out for me from the New X-men, who were kind of just a bigger, kind of more tragic version of teams like The New Mutants or Generation X.

while I did like their run myself, I totally have to agree with this summation.

For me the Kuhlan Gath story was like the template for a bunch of different (and less well executed) stories from the likes of Inferno to Age of Apocalypse, but it established so much of what would be cool and distinct about those stories in just two issues, and it even did it without ignoring that other superheroes live in NY too.

And, while Secret Wars II was a pretty crappy series, I actually like the X-men issues that tied into it and still consider their time in the shadow of the Beyonder to be worthwhile for how it helped develop the members of the team. I also disagree that the X-men had any shortage of good villains in the early 80's, since I consider it the best era for villains like Mystique and her Brotherhood, Juggernaut and Black Tom, Arcade, Nimrod, the Morlocks, the Brood, and even more random ones like Loki, Kulan Gath, and the Beyonder.

With the 'Massacre he established some cool stuff like the Marauders (and from them Mr.Sinister), but other than the original Genosha story, I didn't care for much of the threats he introduced later in the decade.

@oldnightcrawler: Mm. I think the JRJR era of Claremont's run was one of, if not the most, integral in terms of events/development and i loved it from start to finish.

I totally agree.

While it's really hard for me to completely separate the JRjr era (issue #175 - Phoenix to #211 - Massacre) from Paul Smith's classic run (#165 - Transfigurations to (also) #175), between the two periods is what I consider to be my all-time favorite run.

There is some good stories in what I guess I will call the "Rachel Grey" era of X-Men...the bar fight between Colossus and Juggs, issue 200 and the issue that follows....but there was also a lot of clunkers in there too...more so than there had been prior or after. That of course, is my opinion but Rachel got old real fast, after they declared she was from an alternate reality there was still slips from Claremont where Rachel would claim she had to save the future although it was already declared and known she was from an alternate future. There was a good Secret Wars 2 tie in where Magneto has to console a violent Rachel, which should have been giving attention to Rogue in my opinion. Before Rogue joined the X-Men, she was portrayed as a straight villain, then when she joined the X-Men, she was conveniently a "troubled individual" I think there was a missed opportunity to focus on Rogue instead of Rachel there in the latter days of the JRJR stuff

There was also a flailing interest in Kitty and Nightcrawler at that time too, the precise reason why Claremont wanted to use them in Excalibur. There was also those really shoddy solo adventures too, where Nightcralwer saves some princess and Kitty and Colossus battle Arcade. Not the best stuff.

The Brotherhood/Freedom Force, the Brood, Nimrod were all still active in the later part of the 80s, the only real new villains from that time were introduced were the Reavers...who in most part were pre existing villains.

Oh yeah, I know this opinion is going to very unpopular. Wolverine's character is not forced or shoved down people's throats like most would claim. In comics at leasy If you want to go across the X books, his role is not that massive. Excluding Wolverine's solo books(Which you are not in any way, shape, or form obligate to buy if you want to be keeping up with the X-Men universe) his role in team X books is not very massive. All New X-Men has just had him in the background mostly occasionally doing something like chasing a student around, Uncanny X-Men is completely focused on Cyclops, X-Men Legacy before its cancellation wasn't heavily focused on him, Amazing X-Men has had a plot mostly revolving around Nightcrawler, Uncanny Avengers(Which is kind of an Avengers title too) while having him in front role doesn't exclusively focus on him, and I know that I am most likely missing an X book or two in my analysis. The only X team book that has him front and center is Wolverine and the X-Men.

The only reason why Wolverine seems forced because like some other popular heroes(Batman for example) he makes numerous, small handed appearances in a lot of team comics where he doesn't really do much just so Marvel can bank on his name, and he's ludicrously more popular than his teamates when it comes to other forms of media.

-Making Wolverine into a super-cool martial arts expert was not only EXTREMELY lame (seriously, thats like something I would have thought was cool when I was 14), but making a guy with that attitude, complete lack of self control, and hotheadedness, into a martial arts master is an insult to actual martial artists.

-It is completely ridiculous that Wolvie is not allowed to smoke anymore, but it's okay for him to brutally hack people to pieces. Killing is okay as long as you don't have a cigar hanging out of your mouth, nice logic Marvel.

-Wolverine and Cyclops used to be the best dynamic in all of the X-Men and were 100 times more awesome as true bros than they were bickering about pointless stuff (like Jean).

-Cannonball and Sunspot should have never became Avengers.

-Marvel writers and artists needs to acknowledge Emma's MILF status more often.

-Bendis is a great X-Men writer.

-Except for his X-23, his X-23 is horrible.

-Cipher and Warlock are awesome.

-If Bishop sincerely thought that the only way to save the world would be with Hope dying, it would make sense for him to try to kill her, and wouldn't be as completely unbelievable and out of character as everyone made it out to be.

-Proffesor X was no saint.

-Old school X-Force with Cable and Cannonball was the best version.

Morrison is the best X Men writer, then Claremont.

- Magik and Kitty are both more interesting characters without Colossus around
- Bendis' Uncanny X-Men has been the best X title in a few years
- Monet is a better character than X-23

• I liked the result of House of M, but AvX (and the events leading up to) completely destroyed the X-Men for me. I personally blame Bendis and the Avengers movie franchise.
• I hate and it disturbs me greatly when characters disappear and then come back without even a hint of what they've been up to.
• Jean is boring.
• Jason Aaron's Wolverine and the X-Men was horrible. The first 3 issues were fine, the rest is almost painful to read, with a few exceptions.
• Nick Bradshaw's art is terrible. I cannot begin to fathom how is he Young Gun.
• I'm tired of resurrections. Nightcrawler should have stayed dead.
• Hank is my least favorite X-Men. To me, he is the Captain America of the X-Men.
• All-New X-Men is the brain fart of a mediocre writer. But somehow the same mind is doing OK in Uncanny (the art helps a lot).
• BotA was stupid. (might not be and unpopular opinion)

@mn_logan:

-Making Wolverine into a super-cool martial arts expert was not only EXTREMELY lame (seriously, thats like something I would have thought was cool when I was 14), but making a guy with that attitude, complete lack of self control, and hotheadedness, into a martial arts master is an insult to actual martial artists.

He started out a martial artist though. Granted, Wolverine in most recent times has improved in skill from the old days(He's pretty much number 1 or two now among Marvel heroes in terms of martial skill), but going through the earlier Claremont stories, themes like Japan, martial arts, Wolverine being a samurai, etc. were commonly touched on, and the lack of self control at times(Berserker rages and all) has been pointed out as a flaw and he's done training with people like Shang Chi and Ogun to try get it under control, but he's obviously still not there yet :D

Wolverine and Cyclops used to be the best dynamic in all of the X-Men and were 100 times more awesome as true bros than they were bickering about pointless stuff (like Jean).

Women will do that to you!

Marvel writers and artists needs to acknowledge Emma's MILF status more often.

Not sure Emma would really quality as a MILF(She was 28 during Morrison's New X-Men), but I'm all for appreciating sexiness! *Looks back and forth pervertedly*

I get that he's been training for a long time, I just think it was a bit ridiculous to make him able to beat people like Iron Fist, Daredevil or Black Panther in a fist fight. Besides, a guy with metal bones and 6 12 inch long claws just going apeshit-ballistic is probably way harder to defend against than conventional strikes anyways so I don't see why they felt it necessary to make him into Batman.

It kind of depends though. The martial skill has helped in places though. For example, before his martial training(Pre X-Men and everything) he couldn't keep up with Sabretooth at all and was stomped every single year on his birthday by Victor. After all the training, he's not only been able to hang with Victor, but his win to lose ratio is compared to Sabretooth's. The skill has had its uses over the years.

Oh yeah, just for another, sans mishaps here and there with a few characters, Brian Michael Bendis is an absolutely phenomenal X-Men writer. After horrible things like Avengers vs X-Men, the X mythos needed a kickstart like Bendis' run has provided.

It definitely has, I just think they took it so far that it became almost cringe worthy at times. They didn't need to make him that good to hang with Sabretooth. When it's two guys with equal skill, the bigger guy will almost always win, yes, that's why boxing/kickboxing/wrestling classes are divided by weight, but when you consider that the Wolverine has a lot more weight to throw around than it looks like due to the adamantium, and that Wolverine has probably equal, if not farther reach than Vic with those long claws, the fight becomes less of a mismatch. It wouldn't take THAT much training to even the odds I don't think.

Martial arts in general tends to get overwanked in comics(Peak humans like Batman can hang with high metas due to their martial skill), but I see your point of view.

They really, REALLY do. Good talk my dude.

I agree with every single one of these.

Lol, i don't like Hank either, but what do you mean by "the Captain America of the X-Men"?

Many of the opinions shared are not really unpopular, they're just opinions lol

Anyway:

The fact that his first arc of Thor GOT was one of the best ones past year, made me hate his X-titles even more, it's like he intentionally turned the X-comics into a joke.

I refuse to watch First Class for two reasons- Kevin Bacon and January Jones. Bacon as Shaw doesn't make sense in my opinion, and January Jones has all the acting abilities of wet cardboard and by all accounts royally messed up in her role as Emma Frost (also her diamond form looked ridiculous).

Kevin Bacon is a very talented actor, it's just his Shaw is a completely different take on the character, but that can be said about each and every character of the First Class movie. I see you're persistent about not seeing this film, but I must say Fassbender and McAvoy made an incredible job together, let alone Fassbender's Magneto was one of the best character interpretations I've ever seen.

I think it's pretty much official, the age of unique characters powerwise, is no more. 90% of the new characters created are nothing but a retold stories from a new angles. The exceptions are characters like Goldballs, and I don't think anyone considers him a quality idea. Morrison's Special Class was distinct, did it make it any good? Subjective. The point is, it's all just subjective. The question is - do you like it or not. Do you find what writers did with these characters special or not. New X-men were the last youngsters of a dying kind, and K/Y perfectly delivered what does it mean. I guess it was less special than non-combatants in a hiding, everything is just a matter of opinion isn't it?

I don't think Bends is that bad at all. I don't see why people always complain about his writing because he's a phenomenal writer compare to others IMO.

I don't get how people can say that Bendis is a very good X-Writer and at the same time, say that Age of Apocalypse was bad. The X-fans have change.

I know what you mean about some issues from that period being a bit clunky, especially some of the solo adventures, compared to the really stand out ones, but even the weaker issues from that period seemed to develop the characters in more depth than much of what would come later. Even considering it's weaker issues, the period as a whole was still very strong. For me, anyway.

And I agree that much of the focus that was given to Rachel made her kind of less likable compared to the more mature version of the character Claremont wrote her as in Excalibur. Kitty and Nightcrawler were also refreshed from a change of context, so I can't even say that it was a bad move to split up the team the way he did, it's just that, for me, it made the X-men themselves less interesting than they had been prior to the split. Havok and Psylocke were interesting additions, and even Longshot was pretty fun, but the group dynamic just wasn't as strong without Kitty and Nightcrawler, and in my opinion it didn't really recover until the team reunited in the 90's.

Not everything, but in art all things can be subjective. From my perspective, by the time the New X-men hit the scene I'd already seen at least 3 new classes come and go, and while I did end up liking many of the individual characters, there just wasn't anything about them as a group that made them stand out from the classes that came before them.