Uncanny X-Men 22 *Spoilers!*

So Emma Frost, Cyclops, Magneto, and Magik's powers should all be fixed now. Dark Beast had nanobot sentinels in their blood messing with their powers, but real Beast shut them down.

No, he was just able to shit down and activate their powers at will

Note that goldballs was also unable to use his powers in one of the sentinal attacks

Their powers are still spotty

Well, Beast only said that he cured Cyclops of the nanobots; but with that information, Magneto should be able to fix the rest of them..

@oldnightcrawler: It never specified the nanobots were the cause of their powers breaking. Beast said he figured out why he couldn't control his powers earlier, meaning when they were on the lawn. And as the user above you pointed out, the new mutants' powers weren't working in the fight when they were baited into a battle with the false mutant signal. And Magneto's powers are still broken all the way through AXIS. Bunn said so in interview this past week.

okay, you're right, he doesn't specify; he says,

"The reason your powers weren't under your control is because you were infected with nanotech sentinels."

I don't know what makes you think he's only talking about when Cyclops lost control on the lawn, I don't see anything to imply that, especially given that Cyclops hasn't been able to control his powers since the series started.

yeah, so I don't see why it's unreasonable to assume that all of the characters whose powers weren't working weren't all similarly infected. There's no other explanation given for why all of their powers stopped working, and while this explanation was only given to Cyclops, I don't know why I wouldn't assume it applied to all of them.

@oldnightcrawler:

I don't know what makes you think he's only talking about when Cyclops lost control on the lawn, I don't see anything to imply that, especially given that Cyclops hasn't been able to control his powers since the series started.

He wasn't talking to just Cyclops. Magik was also with him, both of them lost control of their abilities on the lawn. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume Beast was talking about the incident on the lawn, an interaction that he was right there to see when Scott let loose a blast and Magik was dumping limbo all over the place.

yeah, so I don't see why it's unreasonable to assume that all of the characters whose powers weren't working weren't all similarly infected. There's no other explanation given for why all of their powers stopped working, and while this explanation was only given to Cyclops, I don't know why I wouldn't assume it applied to all of them.

Because the new students, Emma, and Magneto were never in contact with Beast until later on, and Scott only had them brought over for backup. It was only Magik and Scott that were there to explain what happened. The sentinels were able to shut off or activate the mutants' powers against their will. That is exactly what happened on the lawn. And if this issue was so cut and dry or it was over, Bunn wouldn't have said Magneto's powers are still broken.

1. Yeah, I get that he only tested those two, but since we saw the students get their powers switched off in previous issues, why would we not assume it was for the same reason?

2. I didn't say it was over, only that there's no reason I can see to assume all of Cyclops team weren't similarly infected, based on the fact that they all lost control of/access to their powers at some point in the story.

@oldnightcrawler: I think maybe this was a miscommunication or understanding on my part. I was assuming that you were saying all of their power problems were caused by these nanosentinels, meaning Cyclops' swirly blasts, Emma's telepathy going shoddy, Magneto's loss of power, Magik's....amplification, and then there would also be Colossus' metal/flesh jigsaw problem.

So I'm not disagreeing that his team was infected, but I was saying that the nanosentinels' only affects were to either activate or shut off the powers, not be responsible for the crazy affects that Cyclops' team and Colossus were suffering from the PF.

@god_spawn: yeah, okay, I see what you mean.

Personally, I think it could be interpreted as being responsible for both (hence why Magneto's powers went weird at the same time as the P5), but they don't really say that in the issue, only that that was what was shutting them on and off.

They probably could have made that distinction more clear.

@oldnightcrawler: And I won't disagree with you again. I think it could've been implied, but the more I thought about it, the sentinels had 2 functions that were really shown. But Bendis has shot down answering the question if the sentinels were causing their problems, not the PF by saying "he doesn't want to spoil anything for future stories", so I'm going to guess they didn't. Based on what I've heard from Anka, he said something about their powers will still be wonky for awhile, and Magneto is still going to be broken for the foreseeable future thanks to an interview from Bunn earlier last week.

In the comic book it could interpreted one way, but at second glance it gets a bit more confusing. But since I looked into it a bit more myself, I'm just assuming the nanotech sentinels were what caused their powers to be shut on or off. Not what was responsible for swirly blasts and broken telepathy.

Soooooooo.... Magneto, the guy who detected and pulled an object light years away from the Earth is being affected by something he should've easily controlled and detected, literally right under his nose?

We f@cking adore continuity!

I don't think Magneto was with the team when their powers were being turned on and off, but even if he was infected, the nanotech sentinels could have been blocking the part of his powers that allowed him to be able to perceive them.

It's not like he hasn't been taken down by other sentinel tech in the past, even when he was at full power (which he apparently isn't now).

Oh nanotech sentinel infection... I've missed you since Grant Morrison did it in 2001.

I think, it was only scott who was infected with the nanobots. cyclops' and Magik's powers leveled up, im not sure if it got broken in some way. why would the nanobots power up Magik and scott?

I don't think there have been sentinels made of metal since the 80s.

I think the P5 were altered, but parts of their issues were caused by the nanobots.

I think that Cyclops' blast will still be all cool and bendy, but he will be able to shoot his lasers when he wants to and not just once in a while when hes lucky.

Emma frost is able to use her telepathy again in Original Sin, but when Ant-man asks her to check a space station to see if anyone else is there she says "My powers aren't what they used to be." so it's likely she's back to being a working telepathic just a lower level one.

Magik's powers are weird because she uses magic, so I think the only thing the nanobots did to her was make it so she couldn't teleport people those few times that happened, and that scene she had on the lawn.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with Magneto and Mystique hit the nail on the head saying it was psychosomatic because of Xavier's death.

Emma having telepathy in Original Sin is just a bad continuity mistake. Aaron added the line in which she said her powers aren't working as they used to be to put the comic in X-continuity, as Bendis did in AOU.

Anyway, Bendis said that she's going to have a telepathic and physical evolution, so maybe her powers are slowly coming back and she'll be depicted as a lower telepath slowly regaining her true powers.

@teerack:

I think the P5 were altered, but parts of their issues were caused by the nanobots.

I think that Cyclops' blast will still be all cool and bendy, but he will be able to shoot his lasers when he wants to and not just once in a while when hes lucky.

Emma frost is able to use her telepathy again in Original Sin, but when Ant-man asks her to check a space station to see if anyone else is there she says "My powers aren't what they used to be." so it's likely she's back to being a working telepathic just a lower level one.

Magik's powers are weird because she uses magic, so I think the only thing the nanobots did to her was make it so she couldn't teleport people those few times that happened, and that scene she had on the lawn.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with Magneto and Mystique hit the nail on the head saying it was psychosomatic because of Xavier's death.

The only issues the nanobots seemed to make was just the ability to shut off or activate the powers against their will.

Scott's powers only shut off once, possibly twice, under Bendis to my knowledge. The sure fire one was the fight with the Blockbuster Sentinel but he ended up firing off a big one later. And then in the city when their powers were all shutting down, Scott fired a blast but the blast died down or it got shut off. This was also in the same fight that Magik couldn't port out. Emma couldn't go diamond (and she never had an issue with her diamond form), Goldballs couldn't shoot anything. Tempus took awhile to her use her times powers but eventually managed. And this eventually led into the issue where Scott went HAM on the lawn, and it wasn't him controlling. I'll get to Magik later on. So his altered power has never been hoping he gets lucky to fire off a blast. His problem is hoping he doesn't level everything. And ever since issue 1, barring the last couple of issues when it wasn't just him but his whole team has had issues with their powers, students included, he's been showing better control. He was able to consistently fire off blasts in the Limbo arc, albeit him looking like hell when he came out. He was firing off multiple blasts in BotA without nuking everything and even one time when Kitty asked "when could he open his eyes that wide" He even fired off slim beams in the final battle against Xorn Jean.

Now when the sentinel issue was fixed, he fired off a regular looking beam, but that doesn't exactly go against the consistency Bendis has established with him getting better at controlling his new blasts. The only problem with the Dark Beast blast was it did look old school, so it kind of makes the current answer if his powers are back to normal a a little confusing, but I kind of put that on Bachalo since Bachalo's style isn't all swirly and pretty like Immonen, but more grafitti-esque, squarish and flat. He never really had a chance to show Scott firing a slimmer beam since his times were in the beginning when Scott couldn't control his output, and then later on. Irving was the main artist for the battles when Scott had better control. And whatever issue he shows up in ANXM. He recently did fire off a giant blast then couldn't in ANXM, but only for a time. He was able to later and it wasn't a giant blast like the previous one. Bleh, sorry for this being kind of running on.

I really can't say much about Emma. They only had her project her thoughts in one issue and it was never seen again in UXM or ANXM. And she's had perfect control of her diamond form except in one issue, the same one when no one could activate their powers against the hologram headed sentinels. And I don't really take Aaron's use of Emma seriously. He's poor when he writes her, and like Veitha said, it's most likely a continuity mistake, but we have to see what Bendis wants to do with her telepathy. Like I said, he hasn't really touched up on it much.

The issue with Magik goes with what I was saying. The nanosentinels either turn her powers on or off. That's why she couldn't port, via they shut off. And when she went demonic and Limbo started pouring out, via activation. They also said a couple issues ago that Dark Beast would most likely prep for her sorcery.

And I could see Magneto's problem being psychosomatic. He did get angry and level the skyscraper in his farewell issue of UXM. But I'm saying if this problem was all sentinel based, then Magneto would be included in being fixed since his powers went wonky when everyone else's did. But he's still "broken" all the way through AXIS at the very least.

And there is still Colossus. Hopeless at least went along with the broken powers idea and altered Colossus' powers prior to him even joining X-Force, meaning when Cable found him his powers were busted. And he needed the special armor and dial to control it. Now he shows up in Amazing in issue 8 and seems perfectly fine, but he was never fixed in CatXF IIRC, and the issue he showed up in came out a couple weeks before UXM 22. So it's as if Kyle and Yost just ignored the problem with Colossus. So I don't know what these 2 have planned for him.

Metal is not his limitation since even earlier.

That's the problem, if his powers are stated to operate on a sub-atomic level of accuracy, he should have detected NS long before he was infected/affected by them.

It's not like he hasn't been taken down by other sentinel tech in the past, even when he was at full power (which he apparently isn't now).

Which actually is a pretty bad form of downplaying Magneto, since his powers are EMF manipulation, not just magnetic, why wouldn't he EMP Sentinel's systems? Or shut down their hive-connection between each other, hell, correct if I'm wring but all tech operates under the limitations of EMS.

If writers consider him overpowered they shouldn't have made him that way to begin with, I mean how many stories about him consisted of him being depowered/exhausted/broken/too old and then repowered/reborn/deaged again? This boring plot device is getting old, just make the threats he's facing more significant or take him onto another direction.

Sentinels have been made out of things Magneto specifically can't manipulate since the 80s. These specific ones were made by Dark Beast, so no way he wouldn't have been smart enough to make them out of nano-carbon or something else that's been proven out of his control.

eh.. I have the ability to see, it doesn't mean that I see everything going on around me all the time. I have no problem believing the same would be true of other forms of perception. Even telepaths and clairvoyants get taken off-guard.

Personally I'm going with Mystique's "It's all in your head" explanation. I mean Cyclops can't control his powers so he blast out of control, Magik's powers cause her to manifest limbo, Emma can read minds in every crossover she's been in but can't block out Scott. Magneto's the only one who is always unable to move something bigger then a nail, almost to the point that it may be age or lack of resolve causing it.

I dunno, but if I'd have an ability to see through the EMS I bet I'd see much, much more. He was still depowered 912312454th time, it's not like we were given a credible or original story-telling to defend.

Em... Sooo... It's all psychological, for all of them?

@adamtrmm: I wanna just say Magneto, since his powers haven't given out on him so much as been just over all weakened. And the only time they were ramped up was when he destroyed Mystique's base of operation in a fit of rage.....though it could also be that an angry Magneto is too much for the sentinels.

Bad writing strikes again!!! lol

It still doesn't mean that you'd see everything, especially things that would logically be trying to hide their presence from you. And, really, Magneto's supposed to have been powered down and feeling his age ever since he showed up on Utopia (sure, he brought Kitty's magic bullet back, but that was supposed to have almost killed him).

To me, the parameters of any character's powers are really only important in so far as how they effect the specific story, so I guess I just don't expect any consistency beyond that; every writer is going to have their own idea of how a character's powers work and that's going to effect how they use them in that story, but all of the stories are works of fantasy anyway.

Sometimes Superman can juggle planets, sometimes he can't; neither version is more right or wrong.

@koays:

But what was the cause to that condition?

Again, and again, and again, and... you got the point :)

What age? The whole deal with the age was Fraction making a bad research of how old he is supposed to be, I also blame the silver hair lol Seriously, it was all a misconception on his part.

We can't keep overlooking continuity and consistency for the sake of the plot, can we? He wants a story about a watered down Magneto? Sure, just create a believable concept to back it up, so questions like this won't be raised.

It is actually, if we're talking about the same Superman, from the same Universe and timeline.

@teerack said:

He isn't bound to magnetism alone, he manipulates the whole EMS which technology and robotics operate through.

@adamtrmm: Well if were going with my mental theory, he'd just watched Xavier being killed by his own student and the guy that Mags himself trusted the future of Mankind too. Seen mutants go from building a Utopia to nearly destroying the world. And when mutants are finally brought back from the edge of extinction he has to team up with the guy that killed Xavier and nearly destroyed the world because after everything they've gone through since M-Day, all they really did was bring things right back to where they started off.... with Mutants being treated like second class citizens by what he views as the scared and inferior humans. Maybe he's just mentally exhausted by doing this dance all over again and it's causing his power to fail him

1. physically, Magneto was restored to the "prime of his life" (so, they say 30-35) in the 70's; even by marvel time he should still be pushing into his 50's physically, never mind all the physical trauma his body has endured since being restored. And, mentally he should still be in his 80's though (since even marvel's sliding timescale can't move WWII), which seems like more than enough reason for him to not be at the top of his game, if that's necessary.

2. this is why I don't give a toss about continuity. As long as the character's powers are portrayed consistently within a given story, who cares how they function in another story? the only problem comes about because continuity dictates that all of the stories are part of the same big story, which really isn't necessary for the enjoyment of any specific one. How Magneto's powers are meant to function may be an interesting piece of trivia to include in a story, but I don't see why it should be a law that applies to every story he's in. Why waste time in a story bothering to explain how the arbitrary details of the story make it vary from those of another? That's not what makes the character interesting. He's Magneto, he's magnetic, he's as magnetic as the story needs him to be. that's good enough for me.

3. there can't be a version that's more right or wrong, because everything from DC's most up-to-date official version of his limitations to pre-crisis fan-fic is just that: a product of fiction.

as a wise man once said, if it bothers you that Superman can catch a plane without breaking it in half, if you don't think Superman is believable enough, you're kind of missing the point of what makes Superman great in the first place.

So Magik, Emma and Cyclops were infected with nanosentinels while Magneto lost his confidence? All at the same time? Sounds convenient.

Then, if he's so displeased with Cyclops, why would he side with him to begin with? If he is so tired of the routine that actually drives him as a character even to this very day, why did he proclaim a personal crusade? If this is the official explanation to come, it'll be just pitiful.

1. Let's call the things with their names, he will be as old as the writer wants him to, so their favorite "old man" title could be used whenever any pet character becomes preachy. I mean seriously, if we're going with your logic Franklin (the most infamous "eternal kid") is supposed to be at least a teenager, and how old was Emma when she debuted during DPS in the same 70s if during Morrison's run she was said to be something like 27? Let's apply your calculus system on here and will get the White Teen instead. We were wrong all along! She just made us believe she looked like she did, like she had in Old Man Logan. Really man, the ages are stretched for all, but when ones consenescence is being used as plot device creating selective logic, like reducing a guy from "prime of his life" into a "fragile old man" just because while everybody is still as young as it possible, is laughable and deserves to be called out.

You know, Thor is supposed to be thousands of years wise, Atrocitus a billion years wise, hell, Wolverine and Mystique are more than a hundred years old, tell me, does their "old fart" mentality and supposedly broken and tired spirits stink with 19s century?

2. Maybe because the same story is being told for 908098 time? His gravitas is shaken by those non-stop annoying depowerments. Same with him being an "old man" while others are allowed to be young.

1. If Emma was 27 in 2001, then, by my math, she would have been 20 in 1980 (when DPS came out). Maybe 20 seems young to be starting her own private school, but at the time she was trying to recruit Kitty she still didn't have any students, so I can give that a pass.

And Thor, Wolverine, and Mystique are essentially immortal because of how they heal and age, none of which applies to Magneto.

2. No matter how you slice it, Magneto was a kid during WWII, by any standard he should be an old man by now.

3. I'm just going to assume you agreed with my third point :P

@adamtrmm: well idk its just a theory, but if Mags was infecnted with nano sentinels then it would mess up the events in his solo where he seems to have access to technology that can deactivate them.

Plus that first convo he had alone with Scott after the break out takes a new light if you think of Magneto as having put all his hopes for mutant kind on Scott. Since he even calls him out for disappointing him but says Scott will fix it. (Almost like he was hoping for Scott to prove that he was still worthy of taking over from him and Charles)

1. Stretching things a little bit? :) Nice. What about Franklin, he's still a kid, and please, don't tell me "he subconsciously keeps himself staying a kid via his powers." I'll consider that an auto-win B)

You missed the point, I was talking about their mentality and how "being mentally 80" is irrelevant since none of those showed overwhelming wisdom, outdated beliefs or crisis of late senium to any degree. So I really have no idea why this argument was even mentioned by you.

2. Wow, there are so many ways to keep him staying in the "prime of his life" condition, I'd feel embarrassed by actually trying to state the obvious. That's a Marvelous world out there, marvel things happen from time to time, like keeping WWII vets act as it's the prime of their life without anyone else asking questions, I dunno... Like I said, blame the silver hair :( I like him bald much more already!

3. If I'd use that logic, I'd guess you have agreed with me in the of most of our disputes :P

Their relationship was interesting, but I don't think we've ever see an apogee of it (and we all consider "kneeling to the new Caesar" a non-existent event), so I don't really think the relationship and problems between them were resolved, until then we don't really know what's on Mags' mind.

Both terms of depowerment were extremely stupid, that's what I'm saying :)

1. how is that stretching? I only applied the same ratio I applied to every other X-men character. And, you're right, Franklin doesn't follow the rule by any stretch, but it's also a bit of a stretch to consider him an X-men character.

And as for Thor, Wolverine, and Mystique, I don't see why the abilities that make them age slower wouldn't also make them mentally mature slower as well (especially Wolverine and Mystique who have had to regrow parts of their brains in the past).

2. So, yeah, they can always come up with another contrived way for Magneto to not be as old as he should be, but I'm not sure I understand your point; are you saying they should just keep him young indefinitely because they can with other characters? I don't get what you're saying.

3. Fair enough, I was just curious to see what your thoughts were.

1. Clearly Emma wasn't 20 years old during DPS, and if she was that would mean her previous occupation as a stripper happened during her adolescence? Doesn't feel natural.

So was Magneto after being deaged, he was stated to be prime of his life, during 90s as well btw. Making him an old man is nothing but a vacuous plot device that also messes with continuity. I don't get you're defending this writer's ignorance.

2. If they want to make him relevant and menacing he has to be operative and as threatening as it gets, but if he's an old man most of it fades away, and since he's not President Magneto for more than a decade, turning into a one man X-force, how can he achieve his goals if he has to face his old age miseries? This isn't the reason why Magneto is an interesting character, the most significant time for "the old man condition" was taken to the extreme levels during Planet X where Morrison's pseudo-intellectual caricature of Magnus was a clear statement "He is an old fart with outdated and primitive views that do not fit my brave new world". Maybe that association deteriorates my disposition, yet to me the X-mythos loses the most eloquent figure without his relevance.

One of his forgotten skills also makes him one of the most successful geneticists creating Mutates and Alpha the forgotten and supposedly the first Omega level mutant. What stops him from creating something like Infinity serum to stop all the questions and speculations?

I don't get the question, you're asking me how can I not accept that other character don't grow old while Magneto does? Isn't that obvious that something isn't right in that situation?

3. About Superman?

@adamtrmm:

"1. Clearly Emma wasn't 20 years old during DPS, and if she was that would mean her previous occupation as a stripper happened during her adolescence? Doesn't feel natural"

"So was Magneto after being deaged, he was stated to be prime of his life, during 90s as well btw. Making him an old man is nothing but a vacuous plot device that also messes with continuity. I don't get you're defending this writer's ignorance"

To me I'm not defending any writer's ignorance, I'm defending their creative license to tell the story they want to tell. It's the same reason I see continuity as a generally arbitrary concept.

Someone wants to tell a story about Magneto being an old man, when the most definitive part of his back-story had to take place in the 1940's? I just don't see why that's a problem. As you say, any writer can come along and de-age him whenever it fits their story, so why shouldn't writers also be able to write him as his actual age?

"2. If they want to make him relevant and menacing he has to be operative and as threatening as it gets, but if he's an old man most of it fades away, and since he's not President Magneto for more than a decade, turning into a one man X-force, how can he achieve his goals if he has to face his old age miseries? "

I don't see why Magneto feeling his age makes him less interesting or less bad ass. I'm not saying I'd have a problem with him inventing his own youth serum to make himself age slower (I love when Magneto remembers he's also a mad scientist), I'm just saying I don't think it's necessary. But then, even if he were to do something like that, the fact that he was feeling his age were be a good justification, right?

But even without that, the guy can still throw a car at you just by waving his hand. So what if he used to be able to throw a skyscraper? Throwing a car with your mind is still bad ass. And it's not like characters get more interesting or relevant just because they're more powerful; sometimes they get more interesting when they become less powerful. To me, Magneto was as relevant without powers as he was at full power. Even Morrison's character assassination couldn't have had the impact it did without underlining how relevant Magneto is.

"I don't get the question, you're asking me how can I not accept that other character don't grow old while Magneto does? Isn't that obvious that something isn't right in that situation?"

My point was actually that most of the X-men actually do age, just at a different rate than we do. The "other characters" we were talking about were Wolverine and Mystique, who's powers keep them from aging.

Yeah, you can always come up with some comic book reason why Magneto's in better shape than any other Auschwitz survivor, but you don't really want to take away that he is one; so if he's supposed to be old, why not explore that? there's not a lot of superheroes you can do that with, but he is one, basically by design at this point; he's going to be around forever anyway, why not explore that side of him sometime before the next time he dies/comes back to like/makes himself immortal/etc..?

"3. About Superman?"

I meant about this idea that there's one version of a fictional character that is somehow more correct than another. I just used Superman as an example.

So I'm wondering if they will use these nano bots to make Original Sins Emma Frost make sense.

Doubtful since the nanosentinels aren't confirmed to be the cause of their problems to begin with.

But it would make a perfect explanation. We don't know for sure how long they were infected and what was all the side effects of them.

@teerack: The only known affects of them were they could shut down or activate a power against their will. Upon shutting the sentinels down, they now will have diarrhea and literally crap them out based on what Beast said.

As of right now that's still conjecture.

@oldnightcrawler:

As I understood it, Emma was asked to join the Hellfire club while she was still in University, which for most people is between the ages 18 and 21. Lots of people become strippers to afford University, only in this case Emma saw it as a much greater opportunity

Did you read her solo?

To me I'm not defending any writer's ignorance, I'm defending their creative license to tell the story they want to tell. It's the same reason I see continuity as a generally arbitrary concept.

Someone wants to tell a story about Magneto being an old man, when the most definitive part of his back-story had to take place in the 1940's? I just don't see why that's a problem. As you say, any writer can come along and de-age him whenever it fits their story, so why shouldn't writers also be able to write him as his actual age?

I never said he has to be deaged again as he is already deaged, that's pretty much the point. Somehow, the best stories and the best writers happen to be the ones who respect continuity and take it as the starting point of their future tales. Magneto survived two genocides actually, and the second one (in universe) is arguably even worse and if we try to look into the depth of his character with his "Mutant nationalism" applied, it was supposed to have a much more devastating impact on him as it happened recently and the wounds are still fresh, but just because it is less "marketable", none of the writers feels the need to expand this tragedy in his mind, which in-universe makes him almost an ignorant hypocrite. Hell, Emma is the Mutant Holocaust survivor, most of the writers don't even acknowledge that. I really can't understand how continuity isn't important as it makes characters who they are.

I don't see why Magneto feeling his age makes him less interesting or less bad ass. I'm not saying I'd have a problem with him inventing his own youth serum to make himself age slower (I love when Magneto remembers he's also a mad scientist), I'm just saying I don't think it's necessary. But then, even if he were to do something like that, the fact that he was feeling his age were be a good justification, right?

Now, after continuity is already messed up, the answer is yes, but that wasn't the initial point of our dispute :P

But even without that, the guy can still throw a car at you just by waving his hand. So what if he used to be able to throw a skyscraper? Throwing a car with your mind is still bad ass. And it's not like characters get more interesting or relevant just because they're more powerful; sometimes they get more interesting when they become less powerful. To me, Magneto was as relevant without powers as he was at full power. Even Morrison's character assassination couldn't have had the impact it did without underlining how relevant Magneto is.

He is actually very interesting the way he is depowered right now, that still doesn't justify the out of nowhere reasons for another uncountable downplay just because the writer decided so, it's nothing we've never seen before, so, why? Right before HOM he opened a wormhole to teleport, now THAT was f@cking interesting thing to explore, as his powers were never shown to their true potential. And no, "overpowered" characters can be still interesting, it's just becomes a more complicated job for the writer to make them still struggle.

My point was actually that most of the X-men actually do age, just at a different rate than we do. The "other characters" we were talking about were Wolverine and Mystique, who's powers keep them from aging.

Yeah, you can always come up with some comic book reason why Magneto's in better shape than any other Auschwitz survivor, but you don't really want to take away that he is one; so if he's supposed to be old, why not explore that? there's not a lot of superheroes you can do that with, but he is one, basically by design at this point; he's going to be around forever anyway, why not explore that side of him sometime before the next time he dies/comes back to like/makes himself immortal/etc..?

That's what we're discussing right here, he is supposed to be as old as the majority of the characters on 616-Earth.... Everyone knows who Magneto is and what drives him as a character, even making him immortal while going to have a 5 years long adventure in space won't take it away from him.

I don't say the story is bad, I say the inconsequent story-telling just ruins the enjoyment.

@adamtrmm:

"Did you read her solo?"

not very much, and not or quite a while. Why?

"I never said he has to be deaged again as he is already deaged, that's pretty much the point. Somehow, the best stories and the best writers happen to be the ones who respect continuity and take it as the starting point of their future tales."

maybe by coincidence, in your opinion. A story shouldn't need any continuity outside of itself to be a good story, though. and A LOT of good stories have been written without adhering to any continuity.

The idea that every writer that writes a marvel character in the comics has to conform to what ever every other writer has written about them is just a needless restriction to put on the story itself. And it always ends up contradicting itself at some point anyway. Personally, if I read a story that seems to contradict continuity, I just assume I missed an issue somewhere and keep going; it usually gets sorted, and rarely matters if it doesn't.

"Magneto survived two genocides actually, and the second one (in universe) is arguably even worse and if we try to look into the depth of his character with his "Mutant nationalism" applied, it was supposed to have a much more devastating impact on him as it happened recently and the wounds are still fresh, but just because it is less "marketable", none of the writers feels the need to expand this tragedy in his mind, which in-universe makes him almost an ignorant hypocrite. Hell, Emma is the Mutant Holocaust survivor, most of the writers don't even acknowledge that. I really can't understand how continuity isn't important as it makes characters who they are."

well, part of what makes people identify with Magneto's plight is that he's a holocaust survivor, but given that so were a lot of actual, real people, I can see why marvel wouldn't want to compare a fictional genocide to an actual one by making it seem more damaging. I mean, they have made a point to make Emma's survival at Genosha central to her experience, but in Magneto's case, it's probably more sensitive of them/kinda makes more sense for Magneto to have been less effected. That is, from his perspective, it's at least what he would expect. I mean, that is why he's an extremist, right?

But continuity isn't what makes a character what they are, not in my mind. Some stories are more definitive of certain characters than others, but the only stories that need to matter to any character/writer/reader are their origin story and whatever story they're in/writing/reading. To think that anyone needs to know every story to enjoy any of them is simply absurd.

"He is actually very interesting the way he is depowered right now, that still doesn't justify the out of nowhere reasons for another uncountable downplay just because the writer decided so, it's nothing we've never seen before, so, why? Right before HOM he opened a wormhole to teleport, now THAT was f@cking interesting thing to explore, as his powers were never shown to their true potential. And no, "overpowered" characters can be still interesting,"

yeah, no character is too powerful to be interesting, I only mean that a character doesn't need to be powerful at all to be interesting.

I don't know, though; I just don't see it as a thing that needs to be justified. Maybe it's just a difference in my own sensibility, but to me it's just a story. Magneto is and has been many different things depending on the story, none of them more or less than any other story.

"That's what we're discussing right here, he is supposed to be as old as the majority of the characters on 616-Earth.... Everyone knows who Magneto is and what drives him as a character, even making him immortal while going to have a 5 years long adventure in space won't take it away from him.

I don't say the story is bad, I say the inconsequent story-telling just ruins the enjoyment"

you mean your enjoyment.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think, if you expect every story to make perfect sense with every other Magneto story that's been in the comics in the past 50 years, you might have expectations that are preventing you from seeing the work for what it is.

Continuity can be used to great effect, definitely it can; but if you expect it to be there, you're just limiting your own enjoyment of the story with expectations.

@oldnightcrawler:

not very much, and not or quite a while. Why?

Just was wondering.

maybe by coincidence, in your opinion. A story shouldn't need any continuity outside of itself to be a good story, though. and A LOT of good stories have been written without adhering to any continuity.

The idea that every writer that writes a marvel character in the comics has to conform to what ever every other writer has written about them is just a needless restriction to put on the story itself. And it always ends up contradicting itself at some point anyway. Personally, if I read a story that seems to contradict continuity, I just assume I missed an issue somewhere and keep going; it usually gets sorted, and rarely matters if it doesn't.

This is "his/her" work, to make a detailed research is the least we can ask. From that point it all depends what their interpretation of this character should be, and even when things change, there has to be a breaking point to that, if they stay the same, after something big has happened, this also needs to be addressed. Just being professionals, that's what I'm asking. Is it too much?

well, part of what makes people identify with Magneto's plight is that he's a holocaust survivor, but given that so were a lot of actual, real people, I can see why marvel wouldn't want to compare a fictional genocide to an actual one by making it seem more damaging. I mean, they have made a point to make Emma's survival at Genosha central to her experience, but in Magneto's case, it's probably more sensitive of them/kinda makes more sense for Magneto to have been less effected. That is, from his perspective, it's at least what he would expect. I mean, that is why he's an extremist, right?

But continuity isn't what makes a character what they are, not in my mind. Some stories are more definitive of certain characters than others, but the only stories that need to matter to any character/writer/reader are their origin story and whatever story they're in/writing/reading. To think that anyone needs to know every story to enjoy any of them is simply absurd.

True, that still doesn't explain his in-universe apathy for the genocide of millions of mutants under his protection, his ultimate failure, his very shattered dream and hope. Just because one character has its definitive origin shouldn't bound the potential for future developments that even might alter his views. Isn't that what we actually expect from our stories? They don't have to compare them, of course I understand that, but we have educated and talented writers for this issues to be professionally incorporated without disrespect. I don't really follow you on the Emma's part, but we also know that it wasn't the Holocaust that drove Magneto to the edge, it is but an event that he is mostly known for.

You don't have to know his every speech-bubble to acknowledge the most notable events and breaking points. Without them, every character's history can rebooted/retold/redefined etc every time when a new writer arrives? But that's ok as long as the arc/run itself are enjoyable reading? How can it be enjoyable if the history was altered just like that?

yeah, no character is too powerful to be interesting, I only mean that a character doesn't need to be powerful at all to be interesting.

No arguing here.

I don't know, though; I just don't see it as a thing that needs to be justified. Maybe it's just a difference in my own sensibility, but to me it's just a story. Magneto is and has been many different things depending on the story, none of them more or less than any other story.

This is not really about his character, this about a poor plot device for the sake of it. I really have no idea why it was even used to begin with, maybe Bendis thought that having Magik, Magneto and Emma under the proved leadership of Cyclops would be too explosive (while Magneto himself was involved by extremely arbitrary reasons that we are supposed to accept just because), but let's be honest, it's not like every second incarnation of the X-teams is clearly overpowered. That's were the writer finds and develops intriguing and relevant threat for them to face. I mean, isn't that obvious?

@adamtrmm:

"This is "his/her" work, to make a detailed research is the least we can ask. From that point it all depends what their interpretation of this character should be, and even when things change, there has to be a breaking point to that, if they stay the same, after something big has happened, this also needs to be addressed. Just being professionals, that's what I'm asking. Is it too much?"

I'm just saying that's not an expectation everyone has. I don't, anyway. I don't think everything that could be explored with a character needs to be; it's just not really a criticism of a story to not like that it's not a different story.

I don't think anyone needs to know a character's entire history to enjoy a story with them in it. The expectation you present, that continuity is important to your enjoyment of a story, is sort of an arbitrary standard to begin with. A lot of people are first introduced to the characters outside of continuity, in other media, or with a story that was later ret-conned anyway, etc.. and those stories aren't expected to have the same continuity as whatever comics are out at the time, yet the stories themselves are just as likely to be enjoyable. So why bother getting hung up on it?

"You don't have to know his every speech-bubble to acknowledge the most notable events and breaking points. Without them, every character's history can rebooted/retold/redefined etc every time when a new writer arrives? But that's ok as long as the arc/run itself are enjoyable reading? How can it be enjoyable if the history was altered just like that?"

I'll admit it, I really only care about a story in terms of whether or not it's entertaining.

Every writer could reboot the characters for all I care, as long as the story itself is good. That the stories have continuity means that they don't have to, but the importance of continuity, in my mind, is in the service of the story; when it stops being that, when it becomes a restriction to what story can be told, then it's just getting in the way. Continuity can be a great tool for giving the characters an added level of history and depth, but the characters are always going to be reinterpretations of older versions anyway.

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@oldnightcrawler:

I'm just saying that's not an expectation everyone has. I don't, anyway. I don't think everything that could be explored with a character needs to be; it's just not really a criticism of a story to not like that it's not a different story.

I don't think anyone needs to know a character's entire history to enjoy a story with them in it. The expectation you present, that continuity is important to your enjoyment of a story, is sort of an arbitrary standard to begin with. A lot of people are first introduced to the characters outside of continuity, in other media, or with a story that was later ret-conned anyway, etc.. and those stories aren't expected to have the same continuity as whatever comics are out at the time, yet the stories themselves are just as likely to be enjoyable. So why bother getting hung up on it?

Well, after realizing you like the character you might want to explore more stories of him or her, what would be one's reaction if he finds out it wasn't "the same" character he started to like? :)

I'll admit it, I really only care about a story in terms of whether or not it's entertaining.

Every writer could reboot the characters for all I care, as long as the story itself is good. That the stories have continuity means that they don't have to, but the importance of continuity, in my mind, is in the service of the story; when it stops being that, when it becomes a restriction to what story can be told, then it's just getting in the way. Continuity can be a great tool for giving the characters an added level of history and depth, but the characters are always going to be reinterpretations of older versions anyway.

I dunno, to me continuity is what makes the character who he is, post- Decimation Cyclops wouldn't be as enjoyable without his lameass previous history, and I'll never respect post-Schism Wolverine because of what a petty hypocrite he has become while I grew up being his total "fanboy" as a kid. Look how times change, and they do with continuity, that's how I view that aspect. Like always, to each his own I guess.

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I see only one 616 Magneto on here ;] With both movie versions as one and the same just at different points of the timeline.

I'm not saying there's no use for continuity, I'm just saying it's not important. One can enjoy several different versions of a character equally.

those are some really good examples of what's good and useful about continuity, but that still doesn't mean that continuity should have to dictate a story. I mean, it doesn't anyway, that's why so many things are retconned.

If the first story you read with Jean Grey was the Dark Phoenix Saga, then later you found out that wasn't even her, that would be no less confusing, but such inconsistencies mostly only exist to satisfy continuity. Rather than just killing her in one story and having her alive in another, they have to come up with contrived and ridiculous explanations for how the two stories coexist without contradicting each other rather than just, y'know, telling an actually good story.

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I see only one 616 Magneto on here ;] With both movie versions as one and the same just at different points of the timeline.

There's actually three 616 Magnetos, the 3rd, 5th, and 6th.

But even just those three illustrate my point, right?

@oldnightcrawler:

I'm not saying there's no use for continuity, I'm just saying it's not important. One can enjoy several different versions of a character equally.

One and the only I'd say ;)

those are some really good examples of what's good and useful about continuity, but that still doesn't mean that continuity should have to dictate a story. I mean, it doesn't anyway, that's why so many things are retconned.

Story without continuity is an easy way out, would me much more complicated to do the contrary. Like those examples I gave, writers can change or alter one's character making it natural, which also makes it enjoyable to read.

If the first story you read with Jean Grey was the Dark Phoenix Saga, then later you found out that wasn't even her, that would be no less confusing, but such inconsistencies mostly only exist to satisfy continuity. Rather than just killing her in one story and having her alive in another, they have to come up with contrived and ridiculous explanations for how the two stories coexist without contradicting each other rather than just, y'know, telling an actually good story.

While their way was written poorly, what imply would be even worse, I'm sorry. You are talking about a world that exist on the same timeline yet makes development and progression disposable. This is not how it should work.

There's actually three 616 Magnetos, the 3rd, 5th, and 6th.

But even just those three illustrate my point, right?

My bad, overlooked the Silver Age. But it's still two, HOM Magneto's history was altered, he had lived through different life and different experience. It is a complicated issue, can't say it is relevant. And Silver Age madman was accurately incorporated into Claremont's retcon that did respect continuity and demonstrated an outstanding way out reasoning even his odious previous appearances. That's actually is a perfect example of how you make a reasonable way out acknowledging their history.