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#51 Posted by Koays (11477 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Idk. I always read that as her being peaceful and fearful of her timeline coming true but also incredibly protective of the things that were important to her in her original timeline. Like how when Kurt was gonna quit the X-Men and starts naming all the reasons things suck and she goes off when she hears Jean is dead, BUT follows it up with a whole importance of being a mutant hero flashback to her world.

It's just Claremont and his awkward way of showing immature traits in kids who he usually writes as oddly worldly an grown up.

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#52 Posted by PyroFN (6385 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: @koays: Okay, I just love how unapologetically silly the classic Excalibur was. This cover alone is one of the best I’ve seen.


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#53 Edited by HAWK2916 (4875 posts) - - Show Bio

While I'm ok with the character in some respects I do largely tend to agree that overall she is very much unnecessary. As are many of the extra characters in the Xmen. She seems to be the result of quite a bit of internal fighting and ego tripping at the time. I happen to feel the same way about Maddie Pryor and Cable also.

Now if there were some way to alter or even combine certain aspects of all the origins perhaps she would be a more interesting and less convoluted character.

This is where I always lobby for a reboot and rewriting or revamping of the whole thing...it's gotten out of hand but conversely having the current Crip of writers with all their sjw diversity agendas would ruin an already dying if not dead franchise.

In my honest opinion there's room for Cable or Rachel but not both and it would be with the Nate Grey's origin, being created in a test tube basically. I've already detailed a story on what should be done with Maddie. But in a nutshell it involves Mastermind's daughter working with Sinister and creating an elaborate illusion. The whole jumping into the future for a cure and all never happens. In fact if let up to me the child probably is sacrificed or is also a part of the illusion.

DOFP would still be a story but with the caveat of it being a vision told from Destiny's prospective

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#54 Posted by Koays (11477 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn said:

@cattlebattle: @koays: Okay, I just love how unapologetically silly the classic Excalibur was. This cover alone is one of the best I’ve seen.


Pfft that reminds me

@cattlebattle- Remember when we were discussing how they kinda killed DoFP timeline with every revisit. This is the personification of that.

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#55 Edited by cattlebattle (17724 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays:Yeah but there is a BIG difference between being protective of your friends and just going to go commit murder when your anger gets out of control. Between her constant weeping and murderous rages in the 80s, she is sort of a character you would figure would be loathed overall.

In regard to the Excalibur issue, yes, that's what I was talking about. The future she hailed from used to seem gritty and bleak and as Rachel stays and remembers more of it, or is followed by other characters from her future, you learn the whole thing is very farcical.

@hawk2916 The only issue I had with Madelyne Pryor is that she looked exactly like Jean (being a clone, duh) it just made Cyclops seem like a weirdo that needed therapy. "See, friends, this is my new girlfriend, who looks exactly like my last girlfriend....but, you know, alive!!" I would just have it so Sinister cloned Jean but altered her slightly to also look like other women in Scott's life like his mother or reveal a childhood crush he had at the orphanage or something to increase his chances of attraction. She would still be of Jean's DNA though.

The problem with ditching Madelyne in favor of being an illusion is Madelyne became sort of a defacto member of the X-Men for a while and was instrumental in several stories....more than Rachel was. I mean, she debuted right around the time the Morlocks debuted and was featured pretty prominently until the end of Inferno. That's quite a significant period of time..

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#56 Posted by PyroFN (6385 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: It sounds very Bishop-like the way you put it, but I don’t see Rachel that way, oddly enough. Needless to say, when Rachel does her future brooding Schtick, she more or less keeps the people that made her who she is in mind. She remembers her mother’s legacy, her fathers overall mission, Xavier’s dream, her best friends well-being, and so on. It’s a youthful passion with good intent, but limited by inexperience. (Yet, ironically, the Days of Future Past gives her a drive which results in a different kind of experience that no youth should face.) Whereas with Bishop, it’s jumping to needless conclusions with no evidence surrounding it. Doesn’t matter who is hurt, morals go out the window if the future is in danger. Oddly enough, when Bishop starts out, he’s a lot more relatable, being a soldier just out of his time and learning how things are different in this era of the past. Sadly, years later, it’s as if he gets no sense of character development. He still jumps to conclusions and becomes overly focused on a mission without getting all the facts, thereby separating himself from the team for a good while, and is then all of sudden back to having common sense. Looking at Rachel nowadays, she seems like she has learned to fit in. She is rough around the edges, but she makes a home for herself and learned from her times that the best way to prevent that future is to work with her team, rather than going rogue.

I don’t know. Once I thought Bishop, I started comparing the two.

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#57 Edited by PyroFN (6385 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916: The clone thing that Madelyne has was really weird in concept and though I get why Claremont made the decision, it was done rather sloppily. (Though one can’t blame him since he was basically vetoed after already in the works of Dark Phoenix story)

Needless to say, I do like the way they handled Madelynes cloning thing in regards to Madelyne as a character. She’s already started going insane from weird dreams and has known about her husband running around with Jean Grey. So what do they do? They kick her while she’s down because of the environment she’s been put in. She believes the X-Men have betrayed her when Jean meets with them, she is revealed that her most hated rival since before she was revealed to be alive is who she is created after, and the baby who she used to love and wanted to regain from Sinisters capture is the product of a grand scheme. Looking at Jean Grey, she has always been a character about her choices, how she wants to run her life, how she wants to be seen as a person. And Madelyne reflects that attitude in the opposite of extremes. She is given no choice, her life was orchestrated, nonexistent. Her husband never truly loved her the way she wanted to be loved. Her baby was the reason why all this crap was happening to her. Some psychopath wanted him created, so he made her to go with someone she thought she chose to love and had a baby she thought was made from love, but it was the result of a madman’s manipulation. So when Madelyne becomes the Goblin Queen, her goal is to get rid of the people who she thought betrayed her:

•The people who claimed to be her friends, but in the end stuck with her mortal enemy.

•The man who has been controlling her life since the beginning.

•The man she thought loved her with all his heart, who she thought she loved of all her own will.

•The baby she thought was hers.

•The woman responsible for giving her life and misery.

It’s unfair to the people she accuses (aside from Sinister), but at the same time, her pain holds so much merit that one can hardly blame her for her actions because by the point of Inferno, it’s literally too late. She’s fallen too far and can never come back.

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#58 Posted by Koays (11477 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Well she was a hound. I mean it's a stretch to say that thats the implied reason for her lashing out early on. But overall her occasional need to violently attack her enemies an lash out at threats is pretty much her character arc from her debut. She's a child with PTSD over the loss of her entire extended family who was then tortured and conditioned to hunt mutants. If we look at what sh actually rages over it's Selene who she considers this incredible evil....when really all she did was control her a couple times, and threats to the lives of the X-Men. Which are call backs to Ahab and the deaths of the X-Men she experienced. I mean really she only starts getting REALLY murdery when she runs into the hate group that went after Xavier and Kitty which flashes her back to the point that she goes full hound. And a issue or 2 later she gets the Phoenix and encounters the Beyonder who's been basically stalking her for weeks.

Her being so angry all culminates in her getting stabbed by Wolverine which she flashes back to for a LONG time in Excalibur until she eventually starts seeing it as an example of why she needs to practice self control.

The angsting over her parents is easily forgiven since shes somwehere between 12 an 16 and just came from a world where everyone she knows is dead to a world which may be the past or some other version of it. Honestly it's a healthy difference from every other character who follows her mold who just happens to show up knowing all the answers to the worlds problems and or being grown up enough to not care that everyone is dead or that their parents aren't around.

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#59 Posted by cattlebattle (17724 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: I knew someone was going to say "but her PTSD". That's kind of BS. Nearly every X-Men has had some sort of bizarre upbringing where innocence (and parents) was stolen from them--Storm was raised as a thief and murdered a guy, Karma was a refugee of a massacre and it is heavily implied she was raped, Magik grew up in demon world, Nightcralwer constantly had angry mobs waving guns in his face and murdered people, sometimes unintentionally. Not all these X-Men characters are running around flying off the handle at the first sight of antagonism.

Her writing is primarily all over the place. She's stoic and wise, then she's weepy and melancholic 2 seconds later, then she's full of rage and vengeful. Also, her time as a hound is inconsistent and it's a retcon anyways considering during DoFP there is really no inclination that she is a hound. If she's 16 as you say when she shows up then she was definitely free from being a hound for some time as she had time to become close with the other X-Men, so, how long was she even supposed to be a hound?? She was also part of the New Mutants in her reality before being taken as a hound. So, I don't even think chronologically she was a hound for that long.

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#60 Edited by Koays (11477 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Eh Its implied that she was captured when Xavier is killed so anywhere from age 9-14 or 15 shes a hound. We later found out that she knew the other X-Men and possibly even trained with a version of the New Mutants but when we see them she was noticeably younger then the rest of her team, likely even single digits in age. It's also established that she knew all of the X-Men that we see previously. So essentially she grew up around them, became a new mutant, the mansion is attacked, she becomes a hound, breaks free and is then placed back with the X-Men who then plan their DoFP events by the time shes 16. Shes stated to have killed and hunted mutants including (depending on the version) Nightcrawler. So even if it was just a couple of years just seeing Xavier killed and then being ordered to kill "Uncle Kurt" is enough to say the hound experience was shaping.

Come on now, arguing that the other X-Men are all fine despite their backgrounds is weak. And it actually just points out how strange they all are for not being effected by the trauma of their backgrounds. The only two X-Men who act like the people their backgrounds would imply they would be are probably Rachel and Rogue. Everyone else just shrugs and reacts to the issue of the current story like their life in general hasnt been shitty. "Yea Wolverine cant remember his life and half the team saw their parents killed in front of them...but tell me more about how you feel useless today Colossus". The idea that everyone else doesnt suffer from PTSD isnt a reason for them not NOT to have explored PTSD as a theme. And honestly I again have to sight the Nightcrawler instance as the best example because she completely snaps when finding out her mothers dead and immediately snaps out of it when she realizes that shes nearly killed Nightcrawler. It basically shows that's shes unstable but its triggered by specific things. Like she clearly isnt always lashing out.

That said, the truly unforgivable moment for her though is the whole Mkrann Crystal singularity thing where shes willing to wipe out the universe just because of her warped sense of justice. The characterization is in line with what's triggered her before...but it becomes obssessive in that whole mini Phoenix arc before being completely forgotten shortly afterwards.

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#61 Posted by HAWK2916 (4875 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know why all of a sudden people are defending Maddie. But all that aside even with the elements of the character that people claim to like, it's not like you lose any of that with Maddie being an illusion. In fact the same tragic story if you will could exist with Mastermind basically selling or trading his daughter to Sinister. She becomes a secret agent with an agenda, possibly even brainwashed but with the mission of having a child, that will be taken away. Let the idea that she is Jean be part of the mystery. Having Scott pierce the illusion and leave to go back to Jean after discovering he's been duped, allows for us not to destroy his character just because. Also the idea that Maddie became this big part of the Xmen's story could still exist in that the illusion is kept even fooling the Xmen and because of"love" and belief in the family of the Xmen, the same stories could be told...not that they were all that great anyway. But again I don't like the idea of making Scott look like a weirdo same as I don't like the idea of Wolverine pouncing on the bedpost watching Scott and Emma sleep

Rachel could still exist but my whole idea for her was that Ahab breaks into on of Sinister's labs and takes the creation "Rachel" in order to have a hound with vast telepathic abilities...that's the hound story basically.

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#62 Edited by cattlebattle (17724 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays:So you want all these characters to be written poorly and inconsistent and come off as sort of unlikable because of past traumas?? Not everyone can be Rachel Grey, now.

@hawk2916 I am not "claiming" to like Maddy, she was actually sort of likeable seeing as she was a powerless woman running with the X-Men and being able to handle herself.

It's that if you are doing your own original history with the Lady Mastermind thing...then that's fine, but you seem to implying that you would still have the Claremont, actual history play out with the illusion idea just swapping out Madelyne and claiming it wouldn't make any difference, which you are wrong about. Not only does Mastermind actually attack the X-Men while Madelyne, who he kidnaps, is around but Madelyne also has her own independent scenes complete with her own thought bubbles about her situation and place on the team several time throughout the series....which would be bizarre if she was secretly another woman casting an illusion the whole time who wants revenge. And don't forget that the X-Men is a super hero comic, they get knocked out, magically transformed or their powers nullified by villains all the time and shit like that. So, you would have to explain the numerous times when Madelyne is KO'd on panel why Lady Mastermind's illusion isn't dropped and other pointless things like that.

Also, a lot of Madelyne's actions were important to the X-Men's adventures. She was a pilot who tried to help a mutant on the run which led to the Press Gang kidnapping her which led to the X-Men encountering Genosha for the first time, and of course, her DNA being close to Jean's is what led to her Goblin Queen transformation.

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#63 Posted by Koays (11477 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Bah, of course not. But of the X-Men characters from that point of time,shes one of an actual small group of characters heavily defined by her trauma. And given that at that point she was a relatively new type of character "lost in time" I'm more forgiving of how it was balanced especially given how it looks in her overall character arc from the start to her eventual disappearance. ....Plus you know...shes Bae.

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#64 Edited by HAWK2916 (4875 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: there's more to it than just the illusion idea..there's actual Jean Grey DNA and surgery to alter an appearance. I won't detail it all here because I've done so in another thread. And I'm not implying that the same story could be told exactly detail for detail just that much of the outcome and what happens could go as planned and we'd still end up where we need to be. At least Scott wouldn't come off like douche just up and leaving his wife and kid. But conversely Maddie/Mastermind would be tragic in her own right as a character.

And linking a bunch of developments together is fine. I agree that Maddie had some importance. But in all honesty if it were me, Jean would never have come back in the first place. Her sister would have taken her place on Xfactor which would have led to many other stories and developments. There would still be the mystery of whether this was actually Jean or not but Scott still leaves because of what he considers betrayal etc and Maddie goes on to have virtually the same experiences having an attempt made on her life then losing her shit and becoming the Goblin Queen.

The clone idea has been done to death and while it may have been fresh back then as was the Phoenix and time travel the well has been tapped a few too many times. It might have been even less complicated to have Maddie as a Jean Grey clone but have Scott and the other Xmen along with Maddie herself just believe she was Jean all along. I know it's comics but still the idea that my girl is dead so I go out and marry her exact replica knowing it's not the same person but just that they look alike doesn't go over well in any medium

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#65 Posted by cattlebattle (17724 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Bah, all the X-Men characters are defined by trauma, mostly every super hero is in some capacity. A huge selling point of the X-Men has always been that they are loners, outsiders and orphans. I don't think Rachel's specific background gives her any excuse.

@hawk2916 If it's a totally different continuity, then, you could do different things with it, but, I think there would be a ton of inconsistencies if actual Madelyne Pryor was removed from history. Keep in mind as well, Jean was never supposed to come back and Madelyne was never really supposed to be a clone, so, that was a storyline that got thrown in there to kill Maddy off because Jean returned and was with Scott again. Also, remember that we, who are probably of similar age, grew up getting all this information through wikis and whatnot in retrospect as when the 80s comics were coming out we were likely very young or not born yet. If you were reading these comics when they came out the mystery of Madelyne Pryor was probably quite interesting for a while; "Is she really Jean reborn??" "Is she really clone??" "Is she Jean from an alternate world like Rachel is??" We have the luxury of just knowing this stuff already and can say how stupid some of this stuff is,

Yeah, the Sara Grey on X-Factor idea was Claremont's original idea I believe. I agree with Jean staying dead but I would of likely thrown a new, or lesser known unattached female character on X-Factor. Sara Grey would have too much baggage with being a member of the Grey family and all. I would have just ripped off a character from Teen Titans at the time or something like that.

Yeah, her believing she was a powerless Jean would have made more sense, but, I don't think editorial would have allowed it at the time. I don't really mind the "clone" thing due to involvement of Sinister. I always sort of liked how he has all these clones and could place them anywhere to infiltrate all sorts of things. An idea that gets largely ignored unfortunately.