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#1 Edited by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok so I wanted to create this thread for discussion on Rachel Grey- Summers also known as the former Mrs Hawk and current Mrs Koays lol.

Anyway with Jean Grey now back in full swing and even a return for Hope Summers and a seeming focus on a new kid Cable (Lord the stupidity)...there's no mention of Rachel these days. This seems to happen whenever Jean returns and even in the last few books like Xmen Gold and Xmen Red, Rachel was just always being mindraped, possessed and regressed...just basically a disservice and disrespect to her character. In all honesty though it seems her time as an Xmen character has just passed but that argument could be made for most of them. And it's difficult to point to definitive stories for her. My question then is....what can be done to save or reinvent/revamp her character?

Just a few thoughts I have:

Because she is always protrayed as a replacement for Jean and virtually has the same powerset, the argument that she's redundant and unnecessary can be a strong one. I think she needs to be shown as something completely separate. If Xavier or Psylocke or even Emma back in Morrison's days can coexist on a team with Jean then so could Rachel. One thing that might help is changing her codename or actually giving her one. Jean Grey though she's been Marvel Girl and Phoenix just really goes by Jean. Rachel has largely been stuck the same way adding more life to the argument of comparison. Gold tried to change it with giving her the name Prestige and while the effort was ok the name was stupid and just didn't work. Mike Carey had the better idea in Age of X when she was Revenant. She's a ghost of a past/future timeline and so the name fits. Plus having psychic abilities also goes hand in hand with the name. This might go some way to helping distinguish her from Jean and change the perception of redundancy.

I also think redefining or just changing her abilities would do something similar. I actually hate that she's so powerful yet always regressed to being controlled by others. Not that we should downplay the villains in this instance but it just keeps happening with her. I mean to be so powerful she's frequently getting gassed similar to how Jean was in the animated series before she became Phoenix. Changing her powers or even playing into this might help. I guess to explain I would use Sage as an example in that she actually shutdown her telepathy in order to protect herself. Maybe Rachel could do the same and just focus on being a powerful telekinetic. Why not have all her powers be based in kinesis instead of just a carbon copy of her mothers. So bring back the chronokinesis but define it. Maybe she has the ability like Tempo to speed up or slow down objects and time around her but within a certain radius, Bendis actually had a good idea with the creation of Tempus but then he squandered it by Mary Sueing her. Give Rachel limits to her chronokinesis. If she still uses her telepathy then make it that she has to be touching an object or person and then she has internal visions of the past or future like psychokinesis. I also say allow her tp instead of being about mindreading let it be more offensive in that it manifest as psionic pyrokinesis or cosmic pyrokinesis. Since she's Jean and Scott's kid making it where she constantly absorbs cosmic energy and metabolizes it to augment her powers would make that connection clear since for whatever reason Scott and Jeans kids only seem to inherit Jeans psychic ability and run around like Gods all the time.

Finally and this is probably the hardest but why not change or reinvent/revamp her origin story. It's not really all that convoluted but then again it is. Her being from Earth 811 and time traveling back to 616 and forward to being Askani and all is just...well it can be a bit much. Don't really know how to do this but her history could stand being cleaned up somewhat. I know how I would adapt the character to fit in the movie-verse but comics is a bit different. But if they just changed Iceman randomly and with no basis then why not do the same for Rachel. Remove that objection to her character and it gives her a blank slate and may generate some interest in knowing her new or even real backstory versus just what we thought we knew.

I know this is rather long but Ive been on hiatus for a while and it's boring after the holiday so anyway let's discuss ideas. Your thoughts?

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#2 Posted by jhazzroucher (25150 posts) - - Show Bio

I also like the name Revenant.

Not necessarily change her powers. Add powers/abilities instead particularly duplication (but not having minds of their own) which will include superstrength, invulnerability, nearly indestructible chains that comes out from her palms and flight. However, when she uses duplication, her telepathic and telekinetic powers are nullified. Just like Emma when she turns to diamond form, she couldn't use telepathy.

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#3 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

(walks in)

*reads first sentence*

Oh wtf! Mrs. Hawk my ass! You wanna go we can (ativan kicks in)

I have a pretty strong opinion on just about the only change(or really direction) i wanna see to the character. Give m a minute.

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#4 Posted by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

Even the idea of making her an all out villain wouldn't be completely distasteful to me

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#5 Posted by darthphoenix (2345 posts) - - Show Bio

they should just make her reform excalbur

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#6 Posted by BullPR (5770 posts) - - Show Bio

One of my favorite character (see my avatar).

She could go back in space or in England or in another dimension (she has done all that).

Just need a writer with a real interest in developing her...

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#7 Posted by PyroFN (5662 posts) - - Show Bio

For the moment, the closest we have to a villinaous Rachel is her current hound form, very feral. I like the idea Extermination had with turning her back into a hound, even though she is giving major Wolverine, or more accurately X-23, vibes. The only problem is what they will do with it, which will probably go somewhere typical.

In regards to changes to the character:

•Her Powers don’t necessarily need to change in my opinion, but the idea of giving her kinetic abilities of all kinds gives me a Hope Summers vibe to a more limited degree, which does sound good I guess. Pyrokinesis, Cryokinesis, , Hydrokinesis, Chronokinesis, Aerokonesis, Ferrokinesis, Photokinesis, and Geokinesis.

•Jean mentioned Rachel’s pain being real, which turned her into a hound. Exploring that pain would be interesting, seeing Rachel deal with something she thought she took care of left behind.

•Have Ahab use Rachel as the star Hound, pressuring her to find him all the mutants and turn them into hounds. This would lead to a new psychic war, between Rachel, her captured psychic mutants, and the X-Men psychics and whoever allies themself with them.

•Of course Rachel would come out of it, and then I’d put her into an X-Factor program for hunting any hounds let loose after the X-Men raised the place and Ahab is defeated.

@koays: Whoever said Rachel was monogamous? :P

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#8 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok so heres my quick take:

When discussing Rachel Grey or any character there are tiers of importance when it comes to what matters about the character. 1st Tier stuff is the core information and defining factors that we don't ever want to change an that we can draw from to get more story and character facts from. 2nd Tier Stuff is important stories and events that the character has been through that we can revisit. With Rachel there are only 2 relevant Core facts. And 3 relevant stories.

RELEVANT INFORMATION

TIER 1- CORE FACTS

1. She is Scott and Jean's daughter.

2. She is the only survivor of the DOFP timeline

Tier 2- Stories and Events

A. She was a Phoenix host for years.

B. She was a target of the Shiar during the Death of Greys story.

C. She was lost in the Future and created the army that Cable would use to battle Apocalypse

If were discussing changes they absolutely cannot effect Tier 1. And if were talking good stories they should either spin off from Tier 1 facts, or be interesting enough to become Tier 2.

POWERS:

My major issue with making any changes to Rachel's powerset is that they potentially distract from Tier 1 information. Her powers are a direct connection to Jean Grey, and not because she's a copy, but because she is Marvel's earliest attempt at a Legacy character. Even more then that is that Rachel's immense power and growth with it has always been depicted very separate from Jean's own. So where as a testament to Jean's powers are that her kids are so powerful, Rachel's powerset is special because it's gone through it's own seperate growth arc. She goes from being a weak unless irritated telepath, to peaking the Beyonders interest, to losing the Phoenix but having learned how to do complex telekinesis without it.

The only reason to take her powers away from her would be to let someone else with those powers shine. But considering were coming out of a period where Emma, Psylocke, Teen Jean and Rachel were all their teams telepaths without effecting eachother and even worked together multiple times...i think were ok.

TIME TRAVEL:

I'm gonna be honest. As interesting as seeing Rachel start using Chronoskimming again would be. It is also terrifying. Because the last time she used it semi-regularly she sent herself into the future and didn't come back to a main title for almost a decade. Although that said this is still an awesome ability that i'd like to see if we paired her up with certain people.

No Caption Provided

Villainy:

Rachel as a villain scares me because like using timetravel it's a way to get a powerful but less popular character a chance to shine before putting them on a shelf with death or exile for a long time.

That said she's a former Hound. Shes been impulsive since day one. And she's got enough power to be a threat to anyone. The only downsides are that X-villains disappear for decades at a time and that it's not in Rachel's character to be a true villain unless she was being manipulated...and honestly Rachel Grey gets controlled by someone is the title of her autobiography.

STORY POTENTIAL:

With my complaints and fears out of the way I've got a couple of ideas.

1- Summers Family Roadtrip!!! (Lol but seriously.) Something that @hawk2916 touched on that I had mentioned in a conversation with @cattlebattle on the Rachel Grey forum (which are now #10 on the Top Forum list) was that all the Grey-Summers kids seemingly inherited Jean's power. Well my thought on this for a while was that the reason that Rachel, Cable and Nate are all seemingly more powerful then Jean who is only hyped as being this all powerful mutant, is that the Summers X-gene seems to be all about energy manipulation. So with that said, lets have an epic where Rachel joins some of the other Summers and goes after Sinister to shut down his operations. Let's see Sinister put his years of research to work. Rachel is the only natural born Summers kid, and no matter what pieces we use for this (Vulcan, Havok, Deathbirds baby!) it can give a new lease to Rachel's value as a team member and to Sinister's connection to Cyclops and his family.

2. - Free her from Ahab, but piss her off. However it's done doesnt matter. But lets use this as a breaking point. In 2018 Rachel has been attacked repeatedly by Mesmero, mind controlled by Cassandra Nova and turned back into a hound by Ahab. We already saw her reaching her tipping point in Gold by flashing back repeatedly to her Hound days. Lets have Ahab use her to kill someone (idk Eyeboy maybe) in order to get a time machine, and when she finally breaks free she snaps and decides to go after him. But lets put some other X-Men with her. A few characters to try to calm her down and reason with her. And a few that know that sometimes it's not just about revenge but about taking him down. Let Ahab hop around time or even just different parts of the world showing how wide spread his influence and expansive his Hound programs are while Rachel slowly gives into her dark side by becoming more of a hound then ever to track him down.

3- Dark Rachel Saga.You can spin this alot of ways, but the only way I see Rachel willingly become an opponent of the X-Men is if she thinks shes stopping an even greater evil. We've got options: Nimrod, Necron the Anti-Phoenix, Selene, Apocalypse, Stryfe. All have a personal history with her. Let's say we cut to a scene where Rachel is a hound working with Ahab and all of a sudden her mind from a year or two in the future pops back into her head. She blows up Ahab and flys off because she knows in a year Stryfe gets the Phoenix Force and takes over the world and kills the X-Men in front of her and the only way to stop him is for her to get it first. You can give her back the Phoenix Echo or have her reunite with Korvus and use his Phoenix blade to track the force and Styfe down. And let whoever is with her start to get nervous about if they really want this even more tormented version of Rachel to gain the power of the Phoenix. We can explore just how broken and how much loss she's experienced and how this final moment of losing the X-Men (to Stryfe a clone she herself created) finally broke her for good.

4- Just put her on another team. X-Factor, X-Force.....Hell if Jean and Storm are heading the main X-Men then let her be the telepath for Scott's team. She doesn't need to be in the front, she just needs to be around characters she has a history with. Scott, Jean, Kitty, Psycloke, Nightcrawler, Cable, Storm, Logan. If Kitty runs for President and Emma Frost is a co-lead in that book then i expect Rachel to be Kitty's number one supporting character. Hell Kitty, Magik and Rachel could be the entire good guy side of that book. You could put her in X-Force while she tries to help her "little" brother and use the Mother Askani connection to explore where the frick he comes from. Have Cyclops pick her for his team to avoid dealing with Jean and her only accepting because she doesn't like the way adult Cable died. Have Psylocke recruit her because her crazy brother kidnapped her abusive brother and Rachel's got a connection. Have Kitty or Jean relaunch the Global outreach programs and put Rachel in her first leadership role while facing off with the X-Men's more global threats.

The POTENTIAL IS ENDLESS

@pyrofn FunFact: I actually kinda ship her with Kitty...so technically no one said it. I'm just the only one allowed to be her husband.

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#9 Posted by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: some interesting thoughts here....

1st off Im not sure altering or changing her powers would affect the tiers that you mentioned. But I get the concern. I just think that if we defined them better it would stop all the comparisons to Jean that ultimately make her seem expendable or unnecessary. Having her use or focus more on telekinesis or being a kinetic of the highest order while shutting off or only using telepathy in certain situations and certain ways, would also add a distinguishing element to her character.

With the Chronoskimming ...her being able to use it to see into the future is interesting. For whatever reason I always liked Tempo and even the localized ability that Tempus showed in her early appearances. Now there's really no other character using anything like that so letting Rachel be the definitive authority in this regard might fit well.

As far as her going into villainy...well basically all she would have to do is disagree with the Xmen on a course and boom she's a villain lol.

But the idea of her being a hound and breaking free or having some sort of Dark Rachel Saga would be great and is actually a story I would explore. Love the Summers road trip idea because we could get some interesting explanation of Sinister and his motivations. Some sort of combination of your 2 and 3 would be great as well.

We've talked before about a Dark Messiah storyline and in my own little fanfic Hope was basically given the hound status and gathered mutants to her side controlling them and setting off the Six Second War. Rachel could easily be factored into and added to this. I like your use of her as a hound in tracking Ahab or whoever down. I'd even take it further that Rachel broken and distraught becomes convinced that she needs to change things and starts to track and gather mutants, sometimes forcibly, kind of in a similar way to Wanda in Uncanny Avengers making an arc and preparing to leave for another world or carving out space on some island or continent as a mutant Homeland or whatever. Either way her being broken and distraught based on experiences and either succumbing to the pressure or overcoming it would be a great metaphor for victims of abuse today making her all the more compelling.

I even thought of a story in which former Phoenix host gathered in the White Hot Room decide to "burn away what isn't working"and seek to destroy earth. Rachel would step up instead of Jean in this instance but as we all know I'm highly against Phoenix stories.

As far as putting her on another team.... I definitely can get behind that. In fact ideally I'd have her in Xforce.

My Xforce would be: Cable, Rachel, Domino, Magik, Moonstar, Cannonball, Warpath, Boom Boom, Frenzy.

Having them hunt down and neutralize threats would certainly play into developing big stories for Rachel for sure.

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#10 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916: Idk it's always bugged me how she's compared to Jean. It's like yea she's supposed to remind you of Jean, she's her daughter. But everything about her from her personality to the way she uses her powers is different. The easiest thing for me is to compare how Jean was written from Operation Zero tolerance till the end of Morrison with how Rachel was written from the end of X-Treme to War of Kings. One is a mature adult who uses her immense powers to defend others force peaceful resolutions, the other is an emotional youth who uses her immense power in shows of raw strength and functions as a team powerhouse. There different enough that I can see them functioning on a team together, just by virtue of their personalities making them suited for better roles.

Like I said with Chronoskimming, I am just horribly afraid of her using it. I think it would be cool if she ever got another mini series that required her to use and develop it into something different. But I think the most important part of time powers is putting the limitations on it. And then even if we do..being able to freeze time is cool, but it's always going to turn into "Why didn't Rachel just stop time?" which is basically what they say about her telepathy now. The biggest problem with those powers is that when the writer can't figure out what to do with it there either going to knock her out or write her out of the story.

I wouldn't be against her locking away her TP temporarily though. Use that as a way to stop the constant mindcontrol, but also give her an excuse to cut loose.

I actually found the Second Coming issue that talks about the 6 second war recently (Bangs head at completely wasted potential).

I like the Phoenix idea, just it needs to be isolated. Give me a mini-event sure. But dear lord don't stop every x-book for another phoenix story that does nothing. I'm also really attached to the idea of Stryfe with the Phoenix. He needs to be rebuilt as a threat and I think him gaining it and then antagonizing Cable and or the rest of the Summers is cool.

But one thing that's really bothered me for a long time is that Rachel is the one who cloned him and yet they've never met. If she does encounter Stryfe (which could be likely if she does join up with Kid Cable and X-Force) I'd love to see that interaction. Hell maybe Stryfe teamed up with Ahab. Thats a story by it's self.

Funny thing is that I sort of had been building an Astonishing X-Men line up for current books after X-Force saved Rachel: Cyclops, Rachel, Havok, Dazzler, Kid Cable, Domino and Cannonball. Which was basically just combining what looks like Cyclops' Age of X-Man team with Cable's X-Force

Honestly though I'm actually thinking very positive thoughts on Rachel. I mean i'm kinda pissed since i don't think X-Force is gonna deal with Ahab at all, but then I feel like given the fact that everyone with complicated origins (Magneto brotherhood, Psylocke body switch, X-Man's Age of Apocalypse, Rachel's hound. Cable's X-Force) is getting a chance to revisit them before coming back I'm hoping this is just Rachel's quick reminder of her history before coming back. I mean really ever since Secret Wars she's been getting a lot more love from creative...so here's hoping it doesnt stop and some of this is used. Especially since this is her best year.

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#11 Posted by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: Stryfe getting the Phoenix??? So a clone and a phoenix story...The things I hate the most lol. But seriously in this instance I don't know...with the Cable gone things should be wide open for Stryfe now. I know way back in the day one of the theories was that Ahab was either an alternate or future version of Cable or of course Stryfe. I do like the idea of Stryfe though going out and trying to harness all types of power. I can see him trying to collect any and everyone with extra dimensional or cosmic abilities or who's had a history with them and trying to add to his.

I've been basically wanting an Uncanny book with a team of: Jean Grey. Storm. Rogue. Wolverine. Gambit. Colossus. Nightcrawler. Cyclops.

I also like the idea of Kitty Pryde running for some political office maybe like Senator or Congresswoman and maybe eventually President. I think Kitty running for office is probably a story that could be told in a offshoot type book like Xfactor but for it to matter it may have to be told in the main book. Rachel being added to this would be awesome too but I just tend to want her on her own book in an Xforce line up.

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#12 Posted by MasterOfEvil (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

Put Rachel on the Exiles. nuff said.

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#13 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

Put Rachel on the Exiles. nuff said.

And when the exiles gets canceled (AGAIN)we will never see her again. No thanks.

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#14 Edited by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterofevil: I wouldn't be so much against thatbidea. In fact I've said before that all the alternate reality and future/past characters should be shunted off into the Exiles. But the book wouldn't be relevant at all and would get cancelled before it hit stands

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#15 Posted by MasterOfEvil (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916: If the book had a relevant multiverse level plot, around secret wars level and tied to 616 stories, then cancellation wouldn't be problem.

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#16 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@masterofevil: Its an Exiles titles. 9/10 it's a multiversal threatening plot. Theyve tied into the 616 before (they kidnapped Psylocke to boost sales). The problem is that Exiles is an obscure brand that older fans have already decided whether or not they were interested in or not and new fans need a certain level of familiarity with the 616 source material to really enjoy.

Even if you dont call it Exiles, the idea is engrained into peoples heads so deep that they may not be interested even before the book starts. That's pretty much why Xtreme X-Men v2 failed. Because despite good writing and interesting plotlines....everyone just lumped it in with the other Exile books.

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#17 Posted by MasterOfEvil (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: You may have a point, but the same could be said for cosmic marvel before Annihilation. Under the right direction and with good writing, any book could be refreshed.

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#18 Posted by AsheTDust (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

I think one of the reasons Rachel gets banged around so often is that we and the creative teams know she is supposed to be extremely powerful, and so what better way to establish a character as a threat than to have them take out one of the stronger X-Men. We're starting to see the same with Jeans return and them hyping her so hard and how shes been secretly holding back blahblahblah that shes becoming the punching bag Rachel usually is.

Typhoid Mary anyone?

Another problem Rachel has, is Jean. I know, they're completely different characters, but they are enough alike that people see the similarities rather than the differences. To heighten these difference I would have the Rachel de-aged to her teens while under control of Ahab under the reasoning that is easier to control and manipulate as a teen than an adult.

Why? They have competition for the same spot in the X mythos.

Let me explain my thoughts. Jean and Rachel are like Barry and Wally of the Flash series.

When Barry was the Flash and Wally Kid Flash there wasn't a competition between fans and writers on who was faster, more powerful or the better character. They both could share the spotlight because they both had clearly defined roles that worked in creating a solid stories. Barry died and Wally replaced him. Sound familiar? Now that Barry and Wally are both adults we see the creative teams and fans picking sides and one of the characters losing out. First Wally had the speed force, then Barry created the speed force, then Wally won the race and was faster than Barry, now Wally is dead and Barry continues on.

This type of competition did not exist when there was a clear age gap between Barry and Wally. One was a mentor and the other the student. There was no conflict in roles.

Nor would there competition between Jean and Rachel if they were more clearly defined as mother/mentor and daughter/student.

Just my thoughts.

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#19 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashetdust: The only thing is, that no one has ever really explored the difference between Rachel and Jean. There are something like 6 Major Flashes/Kid Flashes. I've read series with Barry, Bart and Wally and other then there speed they aren't the same characters in anyway. They have different relationships an roles within there world. And when they've all existed at the same time they've been used together in order to further showcase those major differences in character and strength. Overall the "Flash Family" has had plenty of growth because of the exploration of the roles they've had in eachothers lives because of how different they are after there experiences.

The thing is most people don't know much about Jean Grey other then her powers and the Phoenix Saga. So when they read Rachel (especially in the last 10 years) they assume that this must be what Jean is like. But when we take a good look at Rachel's roles outside of Secret Wars, X-Men Gold and a single issue of AvX, she's never written as the girl from DofP who became the Phoenix and then watched her entire family be killed all over again.

The fact is that Jean Grey (the compassionate hero who struggles with her immense powers and their effect on her friends and family) interacting with Rachel Grey (the traumatized and lonely child who would freely use her powers to avoid losing any one else) is something that would help both characters develop.

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#20 Posted by poisonfleur (4518 posts) - - Show Bio

they should just make her reform excalbur

And take Kitty with her. I'm tired of Kitty pretending she's leading the X-men. Feels like Fan fiction. Leave the leading to Storm and Jean.

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#21 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthphoenix said:

they should just make her reform excalbur

And take Kitty with her. I'm tired of Kitty pretending she's leading the X-men. Feels like Fan fiction. Leave the leading to Storm and Jean.

lol somehow in a Rachel Grey thread i am not the most biased person here. who knew?

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#22 Posted by adamTRMM (8931 posts) - - Show Bio

Send her to space... Give her Phoenix Echo...

I mean cmon, characters like this simply suffocate on Earth.

But to be completely honest, with JG alive... She's redundant. Revenant sounds good, but that reminds of the fact she set the trend of time/universe displaced chars invading the mainverse... And we all should feel bad about it.

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#23 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: The word redundant bothers me here because other then being the telepath they don't provide the same function.

Pfft. Rachel's joining the 616 story is awesome. Idk why she should be punished just because Wolverine's older self, alternate universe son, alternate future son, storm and black panther's daughter, Xavier and Mystique's alternate future son and the ever boring Bishop. All decided to enter the 616 without a work Visa. Send them back.

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#24 Posted by jhazzroucher (25150 posts) - - Show Bio

Or better yet, make Rachel the daughter of Cyclops and Storm.

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#25 Edited by adamTRMM (8931 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays:

Telekinetic? Redhead? Female? Phoenix avatar? Cmon K, I know it's personal, but we need to talk about it ;)

If getting rid of them we'll have to sacrifice her, I must say, I'll be willing to. I mean look, with right writer everything is salvageable. A smart one would play the hell of the fact that Rachel/Cable/Bishop might share a lot of interesting aspects that could be explored collectively and would not be another brainless time travel event if done with tact. But with the current bunch it's simpy unreadable. They just can't handle it and it's showing.

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#26 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: Pfft Jean has more in common with Psylocke. Hell her existence has repeatedly forced changes in Psylocke. Jean is part of Rachel's backstory and vice versa, so those aspects that are similar are supposed to be there, but you can't place Jean in any Rachel story and get the same results and vice versa. Only when the job is to fail at telepathy and fall down for half an issue are they the same.

At this point Rachel and Cable have been a part of and had more to do with good storytelling then half of the other X-Men. The fact that writers aren't being original and keep redoing a story that already was done correctly, doesnt mean we target the ones that work and not the ones that don't.

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#27 Edited by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

I get the argument about time travel and alternate universe/reality characters. I talk against it all the time. I think those stories while seemingly sexy at a certain time (Terminator) don't age well. Because of that the origins seem convoluted and it turns people off. With Rachel and Cable this is partly the case. If I had to rewrite/redo/reboot the Xmen I'd definitely apply some changes to these characters. Same with Bishop. I think you could tell the same stories, and I mean really relative and important impactful and compelling stories, with those characters without all the time travel...I mean once would have been fine maybe even twice is something I could stomach. But to keep going back to the well makes the stories and any character involved in them easy to disparage

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#28 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916: Lol basically that, and I'm whining alot because Rachel's basically become my favorite character since I came onto the vine, just by virtue of having to become even MORE familiar with her then I already was.

But it's just bothersome that DoFP, a top 5 X-Men story of all time and the character that reflects its relevance is being offered to the bench because Aaron and other lazy writers decided to take her plot and turn it into a gimmick so that their are 1000 other versions of characters and their kids for no reason other then cheap easy writing.

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#29 Posted by cattlebattle (17522 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

But it's just bothersome that DoFP, a top 5 X-Men story of all time and the character that reflects its relevance is being offered to the bench

Honestly Rachel's continued existence has really soured the aesthetic and legacy of DoFP.

Initially, it was just a gritty, hopeless timeline that looked like a war torn police state where the worst elements of what humanity could do was left to thrive. Since Rachel traveled back you find out this timeline is loaded with giant pink and white robots, giant primary colored spear wielding cyborgs that magically turns people into hounds, Kitty gets turned into a time traveling android for some reason, Shadow King was behind it all and other sorts of shenanigans. Shenanigans I say!

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#30 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Lol I have no defense for that story. There really was NO reason for her to go back. And if she did, it should've just been to be angry, blow a bunch of crap up, have a flashback and realize there wasn't any world left to save. But i guess they needed something for everyone else to do on that roadtrip. I'd argue that every other revisit of that timeline (even the one where Imaginary/adult Franklin showed up) was good.

Ahab being rebuilt isn't that bad, and Nimrod's been around as long Rachel has and is cool. It's just Excalibur had no business going back and revisiting that timeline. And even then...still a better Universe then AoA.

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#31 Posted by cattlebattle (17522 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays said:

@cattlebattle: Lol I have no defense for that story. There really was NO reason for her to go back. And if she did, it should've just been to be angry, blow a bunch of crap up, have a flashback and realize there wasn't any world left to save. But i guess they needed something for everyone else to do on that roadtrip. I'd argue that every other revisit of that timeline (even the one where Imaginary/adult Franklin showed up) was good.

Well, she reprogrammed Master Mold and all the Sentinels to be friendly, so, I guess when she goes back again it will be a happy robot world.

@koays said:

Ahab being rebuilt isn't that bad, and Nimrod's been around as long Rachel has and is cool. It's just Excalibur had no business going back and revisiting that timeline. And even then...still a better Universe then AoA.

I guess.

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#32 Posted by adamTRMM (8931 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays:

Yeah, but they also share pretty much the same MO these days. That's why I said sending her to space, or some kind of chronal adventure/stuff as @hawk2916 suggested might work.

PS. You guys are on fire with these lengthy posts. Like good ol days.

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#33 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: lol "2019...the year the illuminati took back the X-boards from the scrubs"

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#34 Posted by darthphoenix (2345 posts) - - Show Bio

i heard x-force will be hunting ahab. i hopee they'd get to rescue rachel and she'd be their resident telepath

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#35 Posted by adamTRMM (8931 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays:

Heh there's still much work to do lol

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#36 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthphoenix: Lol I'd like her to join X-Force too. It's a completely different wheel house for her with fresh interactions, they could put some edge back into the character that she lost as the X-mens resident Fodderpath and it would give us a sibling relationship on the same team. Something which we dont always have anymore.

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#38 Posted by AsheTDust (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

I would be okay with Rachel joining X-Force. She’s always felt more hardcore than Jean or Emma and would probably work well with that group.

Another aspect I would like to see explored more would be her relationship with Cable. The real one, not the teen.

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#39 Posted by jhazzroucher (25150 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm really sad that Rachel will be rarely used in comics due to Jean's return. I'm happy to see Jean back.

The only way for Rachel to be used in comics is to join Uncanny Avengers and lead it because Rogue needs to be back in the X-Men comics more often and has Mr and Mrs X series.

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#40 Posted by MrNihal (3026 posts) - - Show Bio

She is beyond saving at this point.After X-force first arc maybe she just leave & start forming her cult.

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#41 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrnihal: She already formed her "cult"...the timeline was then erased and she was reset.

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#42 Posted by jhazzroucher (25150 posts) - - Show Bio

The X-Office are focusing on Jean and Psylocke so there is less probability to give room for Emma and Rachel, which is sad. :(

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#43 Posted by deacon218 (17 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916: Always liked her name as Askani, based upon the future she came from. She could return to that as homage; would be cool to even give it a small backstory like her having visions of them, or an astral journey to revisit... The posted idea of her starting the Askani could have potential, if properly established as a group with a real philosophy aside from a generic short serving mutant camp with no longevity...

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#44 Posted by HAWK2916 (4816 posts) - - Show Bio

@deacon218: I like the idea of her starting an Askani school. I would be cool with it if she started up in the former hidden Akkaba city or Muir Island wherever. And her taking students or a team to do it

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#45 Posted by cattlebattle (17522 posts) - - Show Bio

There really is no saving Rachel Grey because she is a pretty mediocre to sub par character. She is only really hyped on these forums apparently because people meme her to be more important than she actually is.The only time she was ever really interesting was during 90's Excalibur, and that's because everyone in that whole series was well written because it had a much smaller roster.

The history of Rachel is quite burdensome as well. Chris Claremont famously didn't want Jean grey to die at the climax of the Dark Phoenix story, he had wanted Jean to just lose her powers and he wanted Jean and Scott to get married and move on with their lives, and Claremont, being the male-feminist he is, probably would have had Jean come back with her Phoenix powers in some regard so he could play with an extremely OP Jean and have her go around stomping characters like Thor (who was the original plan for when she fought Firelord or whatever his name was). So, Claremont as stubborn as he is about his ideas, remedied this by introducing both Madelyne Pryor, so he could marry Scott off, and Rachel, so he could have a Jean flying around. After Jean was resurrected is about the time Rachel gets shipped off to Excalibur, which was a series that didn't have that much to do with X-Men lore, and after Excalibur ended, Rachel wound up in limbo because of her irrelevance and struggles to find a place among characters that have similar powers, but more interesting personalities.

Honestly, I was never really a big fan of her during her original X-Men years either. She is really only around for a little over 20 issues (probably 30 if you count Annuals, crossovers and specials) and seems sort of inconsistent and annoying the entire time. She seems reserved and victimized and seems to not want to partake in any sort of violent behavior considering her past but then will fly off the handle abruptly and be like "OMG I have to kill this person" for seemingly very shallow reasons. It's also sort of confusing on what is considered to be the rules of time travel and timeline as well...she seems upset when she finds out Madelyne is having a boy because it means that she is not being born in the timeline but doesn't seem to acknowledge that she is not Madelyne's child anyways and her actual mother is already dead...it's weird. It also doesn't help that two of my least favorite issues of Claremont's run are the Secret Wars2 issues, and it's not only because of disco Beyonder but it's also because of this deep dive into Rachel's ridiculous powers and just how bloated it in terms of explaining everything. I should also add that is was extremely contrived how Rachel was written out with Wolverine deciding to just gut a young, confused girl who was about to kill someone that would have killed anyone of the X-Men given the chance.

When it comes to Excalibur it's worth noting that Rachel's personality in that book is a bit different than it had been prior and Aland Davis drew her to be more muscular and taller looking than she had been previously. Which leads me to always be curious about what was supposed to happen in the proposed Rachel mini series that was supposed to link the events of the X-Men series to Excalibur. I mean, she did got to Spiral's "Body Shoppe" at the end of the X-men issue after Wolverine stabs her. Was she supposed to be in a different body? Was she supposed to have died and be sort of "reborn" as a new person?? She was a phoenix after all. I don't know, mysteries. Another thing is that because of how powerful she was she was sort of inconsistent in terms of combat situations and the plot usually had to involve some sort of situational inconvenience so that Rachel just didn't power through everything constantly.

The unfortunate yet true thing is that if you ever adapted some sort of series based on X-men's chronology, or just did redid the series altogether while remaining true to the actual continuity you could honestly just omit Rachel from it altogether and not a lot would be lost. The only major hit that would be felt was Excalibur...in which she was a very central character of. You could however just make that series more of a Marvel UK book, since that was it sort of was in the first place.

Sorry, Rachel fans.

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#46 Posted by PyroFN (5662 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: I’m pretty sure both me and @koays know you are not one bit sorry. Interesting perspective nonetheless.

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#47 Posted by Koays (10564 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (9069 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrofn: @koays: @hawk2916: first trying hard not to make a "saving private ryan" joke LOL

2nd when kurt and rachel broke up, i knew it was going to be the end of rachel.......marvel dont like jean and rach on the same panel..........i guess its hard for the artist to keep track and detail..........also wasnt kurt going to propose to rach after kitty's failed wedding???

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#49 Posted by cattlebattle (17522 posts) - - Show Bio

@koays: @pyrofn: Haha, suck it weirdos. Nah, seriously though I recently reread some older stuff that was around the era when Rachel was around, in which I thought to myself "wow, this character was worse than I remember" and I was compelled to read a bit more, which eventually moved me to write that.

Rachel Grey: "we should do our best to avoid conflict which might lead to my future coming to fruition."

Also Rachel Grey: "OMG I will brutally kill this man for insulting my friend Kitty!!"

How could you not love this character??

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#50 Posted by PyroFN (5662 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: I think it’s probably high time I start my Rachel research. I’ve been holding tboff, but it might be time to see just who Rachel became over the years. Be right back!