Light vs. Psionics, which is greater? (kinda an X-Men question)

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TeamGXOne

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So... I haven't been here in AGES... too much tragedy recently :'(

Uh... however, recently something came up that was interesting... that was the power of Light is greater than Psionics. This was in relations to something regarding the X-Men. I got into an argument about that and... I'm not sure what to think. Here is what was said...

The primary idea is that Light actually creates, where as Psionics is about manipulation of what already exists. Psionics doesn't enter the realm of "spirit" and "spiritual" cosmic power. Light however is the creative force, its "true power" and is what gave rise to Consciousness, then Spirit, then the Cosmic Structure, then everything else. They said all things and powers comes from Light, thus "enlightenment" is the one's ultimate achievement, unfolding their "True Self" and potential. One who controls "True" Light (not just making things bright AF) is more powerful than any kinetic individual, psionic individual, even astral beings...

Because this argument has to do with a debate concerning Mutants and cosmic powers, I'm curious as if that would be true, in sense of comic lore? Is "True" Light closer to the ultimate form of power?

I do know from a metaphysical perspective, YES. Light is more powerful than Psionic power. Question is... do comics see it that way LOL and... should they?

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Thunderscream

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@teamgxone: You get into a lot of these pinnacle of power arguments.

Light is energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only be transferred or changed from one form to another so on that front Light and Psionic are on a level playing field. (hypothetically)

In a battle between, say Dazzler and Psylocke, the question is: What's faster, speed of light or speed of thought? I feel like no matter how nimble Betsy's mental abilities are and even using her powers in conjunction with her physical prowess, a disorienting flash and a precise photon would end it. (and has in the past) I guess since Dazzler transmutes sound into light that's entirely different than simply manipulating light, but even against the powerful and brilliant mind of Xavier light still exceeds thought imo...unless he could somehow siphon psychic energy from the astral plain to accelerate his thoughts beyond the speed of light, but that just sounds silly.

Are there any other mutant light projectors as examples?

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TheInsufferable

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Apples and oranges.

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TeamGXOne

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TeamGXOne

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@teamgxone: You get into a lot of these pinnacle of power arguments.

Light is energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed, only be transferred or changed from one form to another so on that front Light and Psionic are on a level playing field. (hypothetically)

In a battle between, say Dazzler and Psylocke, the question is: What's faster, speed of light or speed of thought? I feel like no matter how nimble Betsy's mental abilities are and even using her powers in conjunction with her physical prowess, a disorienting flash and a precise photon would end it. (and has in the past) I guess since Dazzler transmutes sound into light that's entirely different than simply manipulating light, but even against the powerful and brilliant mind of Xavier light still exceeds thought imo...unless he could somehow siphon psychic energy from the astral plain to accelerate his thoughts beyond the speed of light, but that just sounds silly.

Are there any other mutant light projectors as examples?

I totally fucking didn't understand your post LOL

Oooooookay, now I've gotta clean up my mess!

Okay... so some believe psionic power is stronger, while most others in this argument believe light transcends psionics. I was in the belief psionics were more powerful (according to comics, not reality), as there's a school of thought that suggests thought travels faster than light... but... the scenario you proposed IS interesting. And kinda in the realm of what my opposition states.

However, someone like Dazzler still operates in the realm of "physical" light, and not "esoteric" light energy. My question was more about "esoteric" or "metaphysical" light than "physical" light. Like take Jean Grey, in her ultimate form as White Phoenix, versus... someone (can't unfortunately mention who) at his peak, possesses absolute light energy manipulation, who would win? Most say the light manipulator would win, as "astral(?) or spiritual(?)" Light Energy takes precedence over all forms of power. I would think based in comic logic, the cosmic level psionic would win, but... they say the cosmic light bender would win by default.

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TeamGXOne

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@thunderscream: btw I deleted my original comment, which I responded without understanding your commentary in the first place LOL

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PyroFN

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Actually, there are more evidence of thought exceeding light in speed. It’s the idea that humans can react to light that is makes it seem inferior, but taking in examples before, there are multiple instances where thought is taken precedence over light. It doesn’t mean Telepaths are light-speed, but you would be hard-pressed to beat a telepath who needs to only think to win.

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TeamGXOne

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@pyrofn: Right, and those are excellent examples of the speed of thought vs. speed of light...

However... my question is about "esoteric"light energy vs. psionic energy. Light energy such as "Enlightenment", "chakra energy", certain super-quantum theorems based in the creation of existence altogether. The discussion I was in, many stated that the manipulation of "true" light energy, light energy that isn't physical and photonic, but existed before creation, light energy from which all consciousness emerged from... if a master of THAT type of absolute light energy vs. a master of absolute psionics were to duel... they said the light energy wielder would win, as they're dealing with a form of light that precedes "everything".

I want to know if that's true from the comics' perspective...

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PyroFN

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@pyrofn: Right, and those are excellent examples of the speed of thought vs. speed of light...

However... my question is about "esoteric"light energy vs. psionic energy. Light energy such as "Enlightenment", "chakra energy", certain super-quantum theorems based in the creation of existence altogether. The discussion I was in, many stated that the manipulation of "true" light energy, light energy that isn't physical and photonic, but existed before creation, light energy from which all consciousness emerged from... if a master of THAT type of absolute light energy vs. a master of absolute psionics were to duel... they said the light energy wielder would win, as they're dealing with a form of light that precedes "everything".

I want to know if that's true from the comics' perspective...

I suppose that would depend on ones view of light vs darkness aspect. If you put more stake in the good vs evil, one or the other, then it’s probably safe to assume that light would rule.

Psionics is similar in the respects that it is the energy generated from the mind, which means it is energy generated from the inner being of a person. The thing about it is that there is no distinction of what it’s specifically used for, whereas one could basically only use the light for banishing darkness, cleansing the soul, and guarding it. Psionic energy’s application, whether positive or negative, can in the end be used for a variety of things.

Shadow King and Charles Xavier are good examples of beings who tap into the positive and negative emotions of individuals. In the end though, it’s applications can be used for offense or defense on any being, whereas from what I can understand of the light you are describing, it’s more specifically an anti-thesis of darkness.

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Psionic energy in the end is just thoughts and emotions that are converted to energy that flows through every being, where light seems to be specifically the positive side of what is in the end aura/spiritual energy.

So, light in comparison to its field is better at what it does, but it’s versatility can be put into question. Yet, more stake can be put into psionic energy from having its hand in both positive and negative energy to boost its power because it’s all the same thing in the end, no matter its source.

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@pyrofn: so your perspective is, psionics would be more powerful than esoteric light?

For where comics are concerned, I'm leaning in the direction that psionics would have been more powerful, than light energy... it gets tricky however, when the ethereal comes into play. I still feel that, what you're talking about, isn't completely what I'm talking about with "esoteric" light, in comparison with psionics...

And this is hard, because I'm not knowledgeable of these things, its hard finding someone outside this bubble, who understands this stuff on both spectrums (comics and metaphysics), so I can get a second opinion, and state what SHOULD or shouldn't be part of an X-Men story pitch.

Light in metaphysics isn't just about, inner healing, and cleansing and such... its also about consciousness, what lies beyond the primordial (I think), and... in the realm of metaphysics, all things are described as crude manifestations of Light. Even the mind, the soul, the astral planes, are all considered manifestations of "spiritual" Light.

My question is, how would THAT relate to comic lore, OR would it even count at all? Would the comics even count and consider higher levels of what Light is, and its primordial legacy? My answer was no. I don't think comics would recognize the power of Primordial, Esoteric Light, in favor of psionic power, as psionics are easier for writers to comprehend and write about, than diving into the spiritual knowledge of what "Light" is. But... I could be totally wrong... but that's my question :)

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PyroFN

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@teamgxone: Well, I said screw it and looked up a wiki about Esoteric Light Manipulation. From what I can understand, my original thought was correct. Though Esoteric Light is apart and makes up everything (according to you at least), someone who uses it specifically is mostly to devoid someone of evil and darkness. There are some offensive maneuvers too, but the majority of its application seems to delve in the cleansing part.

https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Esoteric_Light_Manipulation

It basically sounds similar to light magic to me, but more in the aura‘s and spirit’s side of things. In comparison to psionics, like I said, it depends on the specifications that you’re looking for. To me, psionics is superior because not everyone is full of Esoteric Darkness, whereas everyone is filled with psionic energy. It seems the two overlap, since there is a spiritual aspect to psionics. Hell, the nexus of psionic energy in the multiverse is a being of rebirth and destruction. That being said, Esoteric Light to me is way too specific to be effective, unless the opponent is specifically evil, like Shadow King.

How does it relate to comic lore? Normally it doesn’t. A lot of what esoteric light does is basically what a telepath can do. The major difference is that while the person is relying on light energy, a telepath is reliant on their raw strength and will.

Would Comics even count the higher source of it? If they are gods, perhaps. You would have to look in places like maybe Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, or possibly Thor. (Not sure about the last one though) Places like the X-Men are more on down to Earth threats, with the occasional god-like being coming to wreck. You would more likely find the demonic areas from characters like Magik or Madelyne Pryor to add stakes or drama to the narrative. Esoteric Light is something that doesn’t jive with the overall narrative.

It’s not the comprehension that I’m worried about. Writers are really smart and do research when necessary. The issue to me is creating a narrative to fit it in a story about the science of mutation and those that threaten or try to use them.

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TeamGXOne

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@pyrofn: LOL while I feel you still don't know what I mean by "esoteric" light energy... I think though you have answered my question... That is, metaphysical perspectives don't apply to comic lore, thus yes, according to comic lore, Psionic energy > Light energy. However, in metaphysics and esoteric studies, Light energy > Psionic energy.

The Superpower Wiki is not a good reference, if dealing with metaphysical studies (I learned that the hard way). However, it is a perfect go to for fictional lore, and how "magic" works within those parameters. And as I'm looking for answers pertaining to comic lore, this is great :D

The thing about psionic energy in metaphysics is actually in reverse. Not everyone possesses psionic energy, but all of creation does possess light energy. And no, not photonic energy, or light specific to "enlightenment" and cleansing and the like. The fundamental Light/Energy that birth all things. Psionic energy, nor a nexus of it, is capable of multiversal creation/destruction, according to metaphysics. Psionic energy is the flow which connects minds sensitive to it, and allowing the mental conscience to cause and effect things, on a level above the physical. Not everyone can achieve psychic power, but anyone CAN achieve connection with their "Light Body", thus transcend the need for psionic power. Not accurate at all to comic lore, but is true to metaphysical lore. But that's what I needed answers to. What does comic lore says...

Esoteric Light energy is extremely versatile in what and how it affects things. Even the forces of "Evil" as, in metaphysical studies, there is such a thing as "evil" Light Energy, and "good" Dark Energy. I decided to ask my friends to better define ALL of this for me... In metaphysics, as shown to me from various books, metaphysical authors and recorded lectures (stuff my friends are, "nerds" for), "esoteric" Light Energy is in fact "fundamental energy", preceding even the earliest Primordial forces. In said material, it is from this form of "Light" and "Energy" that the first forms of Consciousness emerged, giving rise to the first Creator spirits, flows of omnificent energy, the first dimensions, and more metaphysics shit.

In comic lore, this doesn't apply as... this kind of information is restricted, and it requires so much study... its no wonder quite a bit is off or wrong at times, when it comes to certain scientific and metaphysical subject matters. But... it's not a complaint to me, these are COMIC BOOK writers after all. I personally don't expect them to even attempt to go that deep. But this is fun to do I'll admit LOL

As all of this was explained, especially when discussing the Mutant in question; should his abilities evolve into, "true esoteric" light/energy manipulation, he would be able to control the fundamental laws governing thought, cosmic energy, manipulate the laws of the Astral Plane and yes Psionic energy as well, manipulate Life Force on the most rudimentary level, can manipulate and control who can achieve Enlightenment or not, alter the foundation of Spirit and any Realities to his will, change and bend the primordial forces and do some freaky-ass shit.

Its explained to be possible as all metaphysical/esoteric/spiritual teachings state that everything is a manifestation of Light and Light Energy. That would include Psionics as well. Such a Mutant (in theory) would be hands down, the most powerful entity... prolly in the whole Omniverse. And this would be a strange path for this character. He's so unorthodox and unexpecting, it would at least make a great "What If?" long run LOL

Bringing all that into comic lore is gonna be... wild and challenging I think... I just hope that what they create and propose, is solid in accordance to comic lore. Just because reality says one thing, doesn't mean fantasy is gonna agree or abide by that.

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PyroFN

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@teamgxone: Understood. Though to be frank, in comic lore, everyone does generate psionic energy. They just can’t wield it. That is how the Astral Plane is created. It’s a dimension of the mind generated from the thoughts and life force of humanity (and by extension life in general).

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TeamGXOne

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@pyrofn: LOL I think you may have... misunderstood my statement a bit.

I was in agreement with you, and stated that, yes, in comic book lore (at least Marvel lore), psionic energy permeates all things, and is greater than light energy. And that was the question I had... how would, or would metaphysical/esoteric/spiritual principles be applicable in comic lore... and the answer is no, they would not.

I only went into (to be frank, a small fraction) a little of metaphysical study, only to... expound on what I've learned from colleagues, and the information they've shared with me.

I also think they should speak and communicate with more comic enthusiasts, before we complete an X-Men story to pitch. Like... they come up with amazing ideas. But, these ideas aren't always in sync with established comic lore, if you know what I mean... ^_^

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JEAN broke invisible girls shield. jean shielded herself from binary's super nova-ish outburst

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JEAN broke invisible girls shield. jean shielded herself from binary's super nova-ish outburst

LOL um... I don't think you read my question correctly...

Jean can break PHOTONIC light, yes. But I wasn't talking about physical, photonic light manipulation. No.

I'm talking about spiritual light energy; from teachings of mysticism, all things are a manifestation of a light energy that gave rise to the primordial forces. It manifested the governing powers over existence as a whole. That is the light energy that activates the chakras, and connect them with the Crown Chakra, activation of the Kundalini. This is the light energy in which "Enlightenment" comes from, connecting a person to their cosmically ancient, light body... THAT kind of light energy.

I know the answer. In reality, esoteric light energy >>>>>>> psionic power. HOWEVER... I wanted to know how would that stand with comic lore. Would comic lore recognize spiritual light energy, or not? That's the question...

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One_TruePhoenix

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i thought light is the highest kind of energy like the force ins star wars light IS life the stars the sun and the soul. mental abilities are very powerful but i dont think mental is more powerful than the light of heaven and god thats the greatest power of all nothing can beat that

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One_TruePhoenix

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@pyrofn: light can control anything it is the power of god and heaven and greater than the universe energy of thoghts and emotion isnt more powerful than god is. even good and evil respects the light because the light created them and everyting else nothing exists without light even darkness has light in it because everything returns to light at the end of all that is

i dont understand why anyone would think the mind is stronger than light if light created the mind that psycic and psion energy would also be spawns of light or maybe im misunderstanding something in comics??? but how does the mind especially human mind is supposed to be greater than light energy???

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@one_truephoenix: Yes so... from a metaphysical and mystics' perspective, light trumps psionic energy by a long shot. But the question is, would that be true in Marvel canon? Is "spiritual light energy" greater than psionic energy, by Marvel canon standards.

This is a question because the new writer wants to employ spiritual light energy to combat psionic energy (which would be really cool to see). Also, spiritual light energy, encompasses "light" and "dark" energy, as I was told, fore... spiritual light is the purest manifestation of energy, the energy that created even consciousness.

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#21  Edited By NoMasMierda

This is very interesting. Has Marvel (or DC) every discussed light in the avenue of psionics. I saw a few comic scans above. I actually never even considered this point. Thanks man

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TeamGXOne

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This is very interesting. Has Marvel (or DC) every discussed light in the avenue of psionics. I saw a few comic scans above. I actually never even considered this point. Thanks man

Well... I don't think so, and I definitely don't think esoteric/mystic light energy has ever been discussed in Marvel or DC comics either. But yes! I'm asking for research purposes ^_^

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One_TruePhoenix

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@one_truephoenix: Yes so... from a metaphysical and mystics' perspective, light trumps psionic energy by a long shot. But the question is, would that be true in Marvel canon? Is "spiritual light energy" greater than psionic energy, by Marvel canon standards.

This is a question because the new writer wants to employ spiritual light energy to combat psionic energy (which would be really cool to see). Also, spiritual light energy, encompasses "light" and "dark" energy, as I was told, fore... spiritual light is the purest manifestation of energy, the energy that created even consciousness.

wait so marvel thinks mind power is greater than light? that is so crazy and dumb is that real??? idk if true mind is not more powerful than light is

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TeamGXOne

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@teamgxone said:

@one_truephoenix: Yes so... from a metaphysical and mystics' perspective, light trumps psionic energy by a long shot. But the question is, would that be true in Marvel canon? Is "spiritual light energy" greater than psionic energy, by Marvel canon standards.

This is a question because the new writer wants to employ spiritual light energy to combat psionic energy (which would be really cool to see). Also, spiritual light energy, encompasses "light" and "dark" energy, as I was told, fore... spiritual light is the purest manifestation of energy, the energy that created even consciousness.

wait so marvel thinks mind power is greater than light? that is so crazy and dumb is that real??? idk if true mind is not more powerful than light is

In the real world and real world mysticism, Light energy far surpasses Mental/Psionic power. Only in comics is it the other way around. Hope that answers that for you :)