Is White Phoenix multiversal? if yes then is she Composite Molecule Man/Pre retcon Beyonders level or below them?

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any WP expert can help?

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Koays

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She eliminates entire time lines and holds universes in her hands.....so yea

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@koays: hmm so she is multiversal but seems below Owen and Beyonder

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@dhdfh: Kinda? Im pretty sure there is more then a case for her being above beyonder

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@dhdfh: if your reference is when rachel fought beyonder, well, rachel's power was just a fragment of the Phoenix

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One_TruePhoenix

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@dhdfh said:

@darthphoenix: so phnoiex as a whole > pre retcon Beyonder?

no that was post-retcon Beyonder, and I think she actually had borrowed some of his power and then returned it to him. Something ppl get wrong. Honestly, I don't know of any feat that proves WP being multiversal. And if we're going to use pure speculation to validate WP being multiversal, then might as well approve of Matt Malloy's theoretic abilities as fact. or even Adam Warlock using IG. just saying...

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#8 PyroFN  Online

@one_truephoenix: ”Honestly, I don't know of any feat that proves WP being multiversal. And if we're going to use pure speculation to validate WP being multiversal, then might as well approve of Matt Malloy's theoretic abilities as fact. or even Adam Warlock using IG. just saying...

You could have just asked for evidence.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@pyrofn: you misunderstood me or i didnt make myself too clear.

I should have said that i dont know of any multiversal feats of WHITE Phoenix. i didn't say the Phoenix force itself isn't multiversal, but said i don't know of White Phoenix having a feat that is multiversal level.

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#10 PyroFN  Online

@pyrofn: you misunderstood me or i didnt make myself too clear.

I should have said that i dont know of any multiversal feats of WHITE Phoenix. i didn't say the Phoenix force itself isn't multiversal, but said i don't know of White Phoenix having a feat that is multiversal level.

White Phoenix is the Phoenix Force at its most powerful. It is a representation of the perfect merging that allows Jean to trascend the physical plane with the full powers of the Phoenix. She has been seen in multiple universes aside from the 616. Saying that you know the Phoenix Force is multiversal, but not White Phoenix is distinguishing them as if they weren't truly what Jean had said in Endsong, "one in the same".

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@pyrofn: the reason I say that, is because I am confused often by multiple parties and the comics don't do a good job maintaining consistency. Hell, reading the damn handbooks will contradict tehmselves within themselves. i said what i said cuz some told me that WP is the highest level of the Phoenix's host. its the host at the highest level merged as one with the force. however the most powerful and pure state of the phoenix force itself is formless and not the firebird we see (as its not actually a phoenix, but a force of the universe), as taking the form of the firebird and manifesting in a physical host arent natural states.

keep in mind that ive had a lot of ppl tell me that jean and phoenix are one and the same, and plenty others that argue that they are NOT, and get mad at me for not "understanding" how to differentiate between to parties that truly are one and the same, vs. two compatible parties that can become one and the same. there's even a whole article on this topic that's been shared multiple times.

i rly hate i lost contact, but someone came up with the best explanation and idea in regards to the Phoenix force, and even wanted to propose their interpretation and new ideas for lore to actual writers. i know id love to give writers ideas of my own of what could cut down confusion and even enhance the concept more.

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#12  Edited By PyroFN  Online

@one_truephoenix said:

@pyrofn: the reason I say that, is because I am confused often by multiple parties and the comics don't do a good job maintaining consistency. Hell, reading the damn handbooks will contradict tehmselves within themselves. i said what i said cuz some told me that WP is the highest level of the Phoenix's host. its the host at the highest level merged as one with the force. however the most powerful and pure state of the phoenix force itself is formless and not the firebird we see (as its not actually a phoenix, but a force of the universe), as taking the form of the firebird and manifesting in a physical host arent natural states.

keep in mind that ive had a lot of ppl tell me that jean and phoenix are one and the same, and plenty others that argue that they are NOT, and get mad at me for not "understanding" how to differentiate between to parties that truly are one and the same, vs. two compatible parties that can become one and the same. there's even a whole article on this topic that's been shared multiple times.

i rly hate i lost contact, but someone came up with the best explanation and idea in regards to the Phoenix force, and even wanted to propose their interpretation and new ideas for lore to actual writers. i know id love to give writers ideas of my own of what could cut down confusion and even enhance the concept more.

1) “i said what i said cuz some told me that WP is the highest level of the Phoenix's host. its the host at the highest level merged as one with the force. however the most powerful and pure state of the phoenix force itself is formless and not the firebird we see (as its not actually a phoenix, but a force of the universe), as taking the form of the firebird and manifesting in a physical host arent natural states.”

Nothing was ever stated that the formless state was the most powerful state.

Even if this fact were true though, White Phoenix isn’t a normal host. Jean is dead by this point without a body. Only her soul is merged with the Phoenix. Remember when I said that it allows Jean to transcend?

2) “keep in mind that ive had a lot of ppl tell me that jean and phoenix are one and the same, and plenty others that argue that they are NOT, and get mad at me for not "understanding" how to differentiate between to parties that truly are one and the same, vs. two compatible parties that can become one and the same

That is not a good thing to get mad at you about first of all and I don’t agree with those people‘s choice in letting their anger out on you.

That said, they are sort of right and sort of wrong. Yes, Jean and Phoenix became one and the same because Jean died, having her soul completely merge with the Phoenix. Thus, every part of her soul’s desire is shared between them to the point of them being indistinguishable, while the physical body is dead. Handbooks, writers statements, and some comics imply this joint relationship.

Jean only did this though because she was dead. It was clear that when the Phoenix brought her back to life, she did not want to be a physical host for it. Their ideals were separate as they are physically. In a sense, those people you talked to were right, but wrong in the sense of how absolute their claims were.

3) “i rly hate i lost contact, but someone came up with the best explanation and idea in regards to the Phoenix force, and even wanted to propose their interpretation and new ideas for lore to actual writers. i know id love to give writers ideas of my own of what could cut down confusion and even enhance the concept more.

I don’t have a problem personally with the lore, but eh.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@pyrofn said:
@one_truephoenix said:

@pyrofn: the reason I say that, is because I am confused often by multiple parties and the comics don't do a good job maintaining consistency. Hell, reading the damn handbooks will contradict tehmselves within themselves. i said what i said cuz some told me that WP is the highest level of the Phoenix's host. its the host at the highest level merged as one with the force. however the most powerful and pure state of the phoenix force itself is formless and not the firebird we see (as its not actually a phoenix, but a force of the universe), as taking the form of the firebird and manifesting in a physical host arent natural states.

keep in mind that ive had a lot of ppl tell me that jean and phoenix are one and the same, and plenty others that argue that they are NOT, and get mad at me for not "understanding" how to differentiate between to parties that truly are one and the same, vs. two compatible parties that can become one and the same. there's even a whole article on this topic that's been shared multiple times.

i rly hate i lost contact, but someone came up with the best explanation and idea in regards to the Phoenix force, and even wanted to propose their interpretation and new ideas for lore to actual writers. i know id love to give writers ideas of my own of what could cut down confusion and even enhance the concept more.

1) “i said what i said cuz some told me that WP is the highest level of the Phoenix's host. its the host at the highest level merged as one with the force. however the most powerful and pure state of the phoenix force itself is formless and not the firebird we see (as its not actually a phoenix, but a force of the universe), as taking the form of the firebird and manifesting in a physical host arent natural states.”

Nothing was ever stated that the formless state was the most powerful state.

Even if this fact were true though, White Phoenix isn’t a normal host. Jean is dead by this point without a body. Only her soul is merged with the Phoenix. Remember when I said that it allows Jean to transcend?

2) “keep in mind that ive had a lot of ppl tell me that jean and phoenix are one and the same, and plenty others that argue that they are NOT, and get mad at me for not "understanding" how to differentiate between to parties that truly are one and the same, vs. two compatible parties that can become one and the same

That is not a good thing to get mad at you about first of all and I don’t agree with those people‘s choice in letting their anger out on you.

That said, they are sort of right and sort of wrong. Yes, Jean and Phoenix became one and the same because Jean died, having her soul completely merge with the Phoenix. Thus, every part of her soul’s desire is shared between them to the point of them being indistinguishable, while the physical body is dead. Handbooks, writers statements, and some comics imply this joint relationship.

Jean only did this though because she was dead. It was clear that when the Phoenix brought her back to life, she did not want to be a physical host for it. Their ideals were separate as they are physically. In a sense, those people you talked to were right, but wrong in the sense of how absolute their claims were.

3) “i rly hate i lost contact, but someone came up with the best explanation and idea in regards to the Phoenix force, and even wanted to propose their interpretation and new ideas for lore to actual writers. i know id love to give writers ideas of my own of what could cut down confusion and even enhance the concept more.

I don’t have a problem personally with the lore, but eh.

I've been so busy that I haven't had the chance to come back to this, and ask about the next most confusing thing...

The REASON ppl say that the Phoenix's pure formless state is its most powerful, is because it isn't attached to anything material (like a host), and its not mimicking any form either (firebird) when in its natural state. Now... you're telling me that WPOC is its most powerful level/state as it is merged with Jean Grey's soul... that brings me to a point that some have made, that is a good point and a bit nonsensical unless what they about the phoenix is true...

so question: the ONLY way the PHOENIX FORCE, a cosmic entity, can transcend to its highest state of being... is by bonding with a mortal's soul? Despite being a cosmic entity, being far older and "greater" than one mere mortal, it HAS to rely on a mortal's soul to transcend?

those i know picked and shredded idea of WPOC being the ultimate level of the force itself. some also have said "this further proves the phoenix is NOT a spiritual being, just a mass of psychic energy, that is quick to turn dark side, and is heavily reliant and obsessed with mortals." pretty much verbatim

I WANT to know the actual truth, its all confusing and i feel acused all the time for not knowing, or at least not understanding it by someone's perspective. But that is a question I do have, how can the highest level of an entity relies on being bonded with a mortal's soul... unless WPOC is simply the highest level of a host, and not the actual entity itself, that makes sense. not the other way around, unless better explained.

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#14  Edited By PyroFN  Online

@one_truephoenix: 1) “the ONLY way the PHOENIX FORCE, a cosmic entity, can transcend to its highest state of being... is by bonding with a mortal's soul? Despite being a cosmic entity, being far older and "greater" than one mere mortal, it HAS to rely on a mortal's soul to transcend?

Oh no, you misunderstood the comparison. I was talking about Jean’s ability compared to other hosts. You were referring to her as a mere host and I was highlighting her role is special compared to the others.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Phoenix Force can transcend the same way without a host.

2) “how can the highest level of an entity relies on being bonded with a mortal's soul... unless WPOC is simply the highest level of a host, and not the actual entity itself, that makes sense

It’s because Jean has the greatest control over its powers compared to even the Phoenix itself. I always revert to this line from the Jean Grey solo:

Yes, Jean Grey is the perfect host. The perfect vessel. The power and influence she wields as the Phoenix is unmatched.”

One could take this as only Jean compared to other hosts, but we should also remember how much power she has over the Phoenix itself.

No host demonstrates this much control over the entire Force, except Hope Summers who became a White Phoenix. Yet, Hope is still untrained. Jean‘s, on the otherhand, control over it is so complete that even when it works against her she can exert her will to cast it out or keep it in. Its a combination of that special bond they have and Jean’s will that puts her above even the Phoenix itself.

That is why I say she has access to all its powers. It can’t resist her. Is it easy for Jean? No. She is still having to exert control over herself and the Phoenix if they work against each other, but the fact she has this capability shows that her power and influence is above even the Phoenix itself.

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@pyrofn said:

@one_truephoenix: 1) “the ONLY way the PHOENIX FORCE, a cosmic entity, can transcend to its highest state of being... is by bonding with a mortal's soul? Despite being a cosmic entity, being far older and "greater" than one mere mortal, it HAS to rely on a mortal's soul to transcend?

Oh no, you misunderstood the comparison. I was talking about Jean’s ability compared to other hosts. You were referring to her as a mere host and I was highlighting her role is special compared to the others.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The Phoenix Force can transcend the same way without a host.

2) “how can the highest level of an entity relies on being bonded with a mortal's soul... unless WPOC is simply the highest level of a host, and not the actual entity itself, that makes sense

It’s because Jean has the greatest control over its powers compared to even the Phoenix itself. I always revert to this line from the Jean Grey solo:

Yes, Jean Grey is the perfect host. The perfect vessel. The power and influence she wields as the Phoenix is unmatched.”

One could take this as only Jean compared to other hosts, but we should also remember how much power she has over the Phoenix itself.

No host demonstrates this much control over the entire Force, except Hope Summers who became a White Phoenix. Yet, Hope is still untrained. Jean‘s, on the otherhand, control over it is so complete that even when it works against her she can exert her will to cast it out or keep it in. Its a combination of that special bond they have and Jean’s will that puts her above even the Phoenix itself.

That is why I say she has access to all its powers. It can’t resist her. Is it easy for Jean? No. She is still having to exert control over herself and the Phoenix if they work against each other, but the fact she has this capability shows that her power and influence is above even the Phoenix itself.

okay with this clarification, I see why this makes no sense...

i've been battles recently on the phoenix heard people call the Phoenix one of the worst written things ever because still it goes back to my question- despite the Phoenix Force being this great "cosmic abstract power" that's older than time itself, the universe, is the LIFE FORCE of ALL LIFE, TOAA (aka the writers) placed this entity on such a powerful echelon... only to be so weak that it has LESS control of itself than a HUMAN MORTAL has. to me this is like saying the Holy Spirit requires a host or a mortal to control it and allow it to execute the will of God, or something similar.

and maybe theres more i'm missing but this makes NO SENSE, and I suspected that waht was said was true, and recent questioning I've had about the phoenix, one member said to me in an FB group chat

"the Phoenix Force is one of the worst written ideas of a cosmic being ever, due to the way it obsesses over mortals in a way spirits and spiritual entities never would. This is what happens when someone (the writer) has the least amount of knowledge and understanding of mysticism, and how it works. Stuff like this leads to the overuse of the "Chosen One" cliche, a trope audiences have grown weary of. Take it from me, a "spirit" of the "life force" would never be so narrow, confined and limited to who can access its power. It's pretty pathetic. And don't EVEN get me started with how petty the Phoenix is. It's all wrong. Jean Grey's relationship with the Phoenix reminds me of George Lucas wanting to add a "biological" element to the Force. Honestly, just ignore the Phoenix narrative. Its nonsensical, and due for a good retcon to be reshaped into something more spiritually logical"

This one person somewhat drew the deciding answer on the Phoenix force in chat and its the reason I asked here.

ive read this answer three times (and don't get me wrong, a good answer, thanks for the scans and all) but i still draw the same bizarre conclusion as others which is the phoenix is WEAKER than a MORTAL and for not a GOOD reason. theres so many lives born over and over, i dont see the point of how only ONE mortal can wield all its powers. honestly like how CAN it transcend on its own without jean? it seems like this one mortal is the most important thing to a comsic entity that SHOULD be stronger and more powerful than this.

and like i said, maybe i'm still missing something but this isnt logical

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#16 PyroFN  Online

@one_truephoenix: 1) ”despite the Phoenix Force being this great "cosmic abstract power" that's older than time itself, the universe, is the LIFE FORCE of ALL LIFE, TOAA (aka the writers) placed this entity on such a powerful echelon... only to be so weak that it has LESS control of itself than a HUMAN MORTAL has. to me this is like saying the Holy Spirit requires a host or a mortal to control it and allow it to execute the will of God, or something similar.”

Well, that’s because you look at it as a higher power with all the knowledge in the universe. It is old, but not an all-knowing god in the sense that it has supreme wisdom and skill.

Think about it’s common nickname “starchilde”. Why do you think it’s called that by the cosmics of the universe? It isn’t for being the youngest entity to exist. No, it’s because of its exact nature.

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That is why it was referred to as a cosmic force for the longest time. It’s abstract status has only been in recent writings because it has started gaining more and more agency as time went on. Back then though, it was naive and clueless entity, that simply existed for its function and nothing else. It had no concept of emotion and did not know the limits of its powers. Hell, it didn’t even know of its ability to tap into future life unborn. It was a subconscious ability it tapped into and wasn’t aware of it until pointed out by Galactus.

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Despite being the origin of life in the multiverse, it is not a being aware of exactly everything it’s capable of. Yet, it’s constantly learning and growing through human experiences by way of its hosts. Jean Grey is the host that reached the pinnacle of the Phoenix potential as White Phoenix of the Crown.

2) “the Phoenix Force is one of the worst written ideas of a cosmic being ever, due to the way it obsesses over mortals in a way spirits and spiritual entities never would.........

It‘s a lot of rambling, so I condensed it to this sentence to show where I am. Still, I did read that entire paragraph.

I don’t necessarily agree with this. The Phoenix has been written terribly before. Hell, it is right now.

The problem with this persons misgivings for me is that the Phoenix isn’t your typical spiritual entity. It is a force that first learned of what it was like to be human through the experiences of one woman. Jean Grey. (Or it used to, until Aaron)

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The Phoenix Force initially is supposed to be a story of a emotionless cosmic force gaining humanity through Jean Grey. It wanted to understand what prompted a human like Jean Grey to go to such lengths, even dooming her life, for other beings. Its obsession is based entirely around what it experienced in the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Through Jean, it experienced the good and bad of humanity, with now having concepts of right and wrong. Despite initially being a force of destruction and having every right to do whatever it wants, it learned of consequence and guilt from its actions after experiencing what we know as pain and empathy. Can you blame it? It did after all remake itself into an exact copy of Jean Grey and then merged her soul into it, overriding its personality with her own. For every intent and purpose, it was Jean Grey.

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3) “i still draw the same bizarre conclusion as others which is the phoenix is WEAKER than a MORTAL and for not a GOOD reason

Not in raw power. Just in will. Remember that Jean Grey has a remarkable strength of will unmatched by most beings in Marvel, coming with the territory of being a telepath and Grey. Aside from Rachel Summers and Hope Summers, characters regularly are consumed by the raw emotions that the Phoenix power induces in them.

4) “theres so many lives born over and over, i dont see the point of how only ONE mortal can wield all its powers.

Answer: Their relationship.

It’s a two-way street between Jean Grey and the Phoenix, where Jean has learned to not just use its powers, but to understand it through direct conversations with it. The Phoenix became Jean in every way and tested her in using its powers and understanding their purpose. The Phoenix didn’t merely come to the conclusion out of nowhere that Jean Grey was perfect.

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5) “honestly like how CAN it transcend on its own without jean? it seems like this one mortal is the most important thing to a comsic entity that SHOULD be stronger and more powerful than this.”

Because the place it transcends to is it’s own dimensional realm, where all Phoenix hosts go after they die.

In regards to the importance of the mortal, with all the time it had invested, Jean Grey in the end is the most important thing to it. It is a perfect union that was resulting from a birth right through Jean’s genetic potential, their merging of souls that gave Phoenix the way to experience humanity firsthand, the learning of right and wrong that prompted it to want to make right what it did wrong, and then rapport linked between them to form a deeper bond by the time New X-Men rolled around.

With any other host, they fulfilled a specific function. For three individuals, a special connection was formed, Rachel, Jean, and Hope. Rachel has built a connection through her connection to Jean and formed a relationship with it of her own. Needless to say, it has since abandoned Rachel for unknown reasons. Hope was born for a specific purpose and then rejected becoming another White Phoenix. Though the connection is still there, nothing was built with it. Jean is the only one who built a real connection to it. You could even tell that relationship is there by their interactions. Unlike others who either talk to it like an enemy or an unknowable entity, Jean, as well as Rachel, talk to the Phoenix like they know it.

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So who will win Pre retcon beyonder or Wp?

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#18  Edited By PyroFN  Online

@stehu said:

So who will win Pre retcon beyonder or Wp?

Hard evidence declares Pre-Retcon Beyonder as the winner.