IS THE PHOENIX A "TRUE" QUINTESSENCE FORCE OR... NOT?

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TeamGXOne

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In a rock and a hard spot yet again...

I'm not gonna get into the mechanics of the argument I'm in, let's just get to the business of my question...

IS the Phoenix Force a "true" or "false" quintessence force?

So... it's conflicting... on one hand, the Phoenix possesses "limitless energy" and is "the embodiment of life". However, it's energy is drawn from the life force of the future, thus denying countless unborn their future existence, in order for the Phoenix to accomplish whatever task at hand. I heard that... it's like a balancing act for the Phoenix; shift energy from one thing to another, in order to restore something.

In the argument, "Individual T" says the Phoenix Force is a "false" quintessence force, due to the fact it relies on drawing from the life force of the future. "Individual T" adds that IF the Phoenix Force was a quintessent being, it would be able to generate its own endless power without ever having to lay one finger (or claw) on the life essence of a future unborn.

Um... then "Individual J" loosely states that, the Phoenix IS the embodiment of all there is, therefore the Phoenix does generate its own energy. She didn't really do a good job explaining the conflict, and says that... the Phoenix just probably works in "mysterious ways" and knows it needs to use the life essence of others. "Individual T" just pounds her saying none of that makes any sense, and states "you either generate your own energy, or you rely on an endless supply of energy from elsewhere. It's one or the other, can't be both as it's logically impossible to be both".

There's plenty of back and forth, and... I'd like to know from someone on the outside...

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Thunderscream

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Nothing is perfect, even cosmic beings. Energy can neither be created or destroyed; therefore, Phoenix is a "false" quintessence force as it draws it's energy from the future unborn. (using your terminology as I've never heard that before) It seems as though in using this psionic essence, they aren't being sapped of their entire life-force, just tapped with the energy going back to the future.

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TeamGXOne

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@thunderscream: Okay... so that's 1 for "Individual T" and none for "Individual J", so far...

So far it looks like I'm wrong with the notion that the Phoenix is able to actually generate energy; I guess I need to start reading the comics more. Quintessent Power is something I learned from them so... I'm not sure where they got the term from. All I know based on what they said, it's the ability to generate your own energy/power from an internal source rather than reliance on an external source (like the future life force) and/or manipulation of what already exists.

I remember seeing that convo with Galactus and rachel where he states that the Phoenix robs the unborn of their chance to exist when "tapping" their life force, which made Rachel even more so mindful of her use of the Phoenix. Those tapped are annihilated, which is why "T" said the Phoenix's powers are "false" quintessence, relying on an outside source of energy, not possessing its own internally.

Well that bit about the conservation energy law or whatever it is, got chopped to pieces so... unfortunately that's not an argument I can use necessarily to win anything with in this discussion, but... lol um... yeah. Unless I get more answers on this, I'm gonna lose this argument lol

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Koays

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The phoenix is the/a SOURCE of life energy....hence why the instance when it was drained it destroyed not future but current life like stars and such.

It has a direct connection to life both current and future and a direct function of deciding what does and doesn't work in the form life takes.

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TeamGXOne

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@koays: so in essence... that makes the Phoenix a false quintessence force?

The question IS... is the Phoenix a "false" or "true" quintessence force?

By their definition, they told me "quintessence energy or force" is the ability to internally "generate" energy and power. "Individual T" states that as the Phoenix is said to possess "limitless" power, that is based on its connection to an external, limitless "source of energy", in this case, the life force of future unborn, denying them existence to serve whatever purpose. That the Phoenix itself does not generate its own energy, rather manipulates and shuffles around what already exists, which kinda sorta supports what you said. This, according to "Individual T" the Phoenix is a false quintessence force.

Now... there exists a conflict, in which, the Phoenix, like you say IS supposed to be the source of life in the universe, yet... has to borrow or take life energy away from something in order to execute its will. "Individual J" states the Phoenix IS the source of all that is in existence, therefore possesses "true" quintessence. However, her argument falls apart against "Individual T", and she has yet a convincing counter argument.

A reply I just got from "Individual G" in the convo says that the Phoenix can in fact be the embodiment of life energy, yet not possess quintessence, as the One Above All would be the one who allotted the Phoenix a certain amount of that "limitless" life energy, and would explain why the Phoenix is constantly shuffling energy around, removing life energy from one area, and using it for itself or to make changes elsewhere, as this energy actually has boundaries, despite being "limitless". "Individual G" stated that a "true" quintessence being (he used an example unfortunately I cannot mention) generates it's own "truly" unlimited energy and power, thus not having to tap the life force of anything, or rely on any external means.

I sure as hell don't know if that's true, any help on this, THANKS! I'd hate to lose this argument LOL

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Koays

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@teamgxone: What I'm saying is that the Phoenix IS that limitless energy. It is life itself.

The Phoenix doesn't fit well into the greater marvel hierarchy.

By all logic White Phoenix of the Crown...The Phoenix's true form.... is essentially God of the Marvel Universe as it is a multiversal entity that decides how life works and plays out and sends out pieces of it's self to embody life in the multiverse.......but as The One Above All exist....he is, "above all" so whatever his mythos entails trumps Phoenix in the greater scheme.

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TeamGXOne

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@koays said:

@teamgxone: What I'm saying is that the Phoenix IS that limitless energy. It is life itself.

The Phoenix doesn't fit well into the greater marvel hierarchy.

By all logic White Phoenix of the Crown...The Phoenix's true form.... is essentially God of the Marvel Universe as it is a multiversal entity that decides how life works and plays out and sends out pieces of it's self to embody life in the multiverse.......but as The One Above All exist....he is, "above all" so whatever his mythos entails trumps Phoenix in the greater scheme.

Okay... the question still remains, does the Phoenix possess "true" or "false" quintessence energy? What you're saying is "Individual J's" argument, which I wanna agree with (however, neither of us are as smart as "T" so I'm kinda at the mercy of whomever is the "smart one" in the argument)...

However, the problem becomes this... IF the Phoenix IS that limitless energy, WHY does it have to rely on tapping the life force of the unborn, essentially deleting them from existence? If that is simply the case, then that would make "Individual T's" argument true, that the Phoenix, White Phoenix or not, is still a "false" quintessence force, that relies on an external source/can only manipulate that which already is.

"Individual T" and "Individual G" mentions an entity... um "Character IP" in which "creates" its own cosmic energy, even creates new forms of energy, and "mutates" forms of energy. While it has the option to tap the life force, in the same way as the Phoenix, "IP" prefers to "generate" or "create" its own cosmic energy to wield. Thus "Character IP" according to "Individual T", possesses "true" quintessence force.

I think it was @thunderscream who mentioned the Conservation of Energy Law (whatever its called) which would indefinitely apply to the Phoenix and may explain the Phoenix's powers some, as "energy cannot be created nor destroyed". But that winds up going back to "Individual T's" argument about the Phoenix possessing a "limited" form or type of "unlimited" energy. Thus she says that's why the Phoenix has to draw life force from the unborn to do its work.

Now... "Individual T" and her knowledge posse, did crush the theory of the Law of Conserving Energy (blah blah), stating this "law" doesn't apply in all situation, thus a very long winded, complicated out the ass explanation of how energy can be, in fact, created or destroyed, and how deep that goes. However in most cases, even with cosmic beings, such as Phoenix, energy cannot be created or destroyed, thus the Phoenix is a "false" quintessence force.

It goes back to the question, "why does the Phoenix rely on tapping the life force of the unborn, to do its work?", and if it simply does, and has to "recycle existing life energy"... then I guess it simply stands that the Phoenix is a "false" quintessence force. I just don't know... I just need that answered or explained better...

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TeamGXOne

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LOL is there anyone that can answer this? Or... is this one of those answers that... "can't" be answered?

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TheInsufferable

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#9  Edited By TheInsufferable

@teamgxone: The only consistent thing about Phoenix is being inconsistent. Every writer has put their own spin on it, and at this point, it's mostly a matter of which writer you ask. And you're trying to measure phoenix and phoenix-related stuff (which are inconsistent in their own realm) in terms of metrics that weren't even meant for that realm (Quantum Mechanics, fandom-invented systems, etc.), so it shouldn't really come as a surprise that the results aren't that clear cut.

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TeamGXOne

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@teamgxone: The only consistent thing about Phoenix is being inconsistent. Every writer has put their own spin on it, and at this point, it's mostly a matter of which writer you ask. And you're trying to measure phoenix and phoenix-related stuff (which are inconsistent in their own realm) in terms of metrics that weren't even meant for that realm (Quantum Mechanics, fandom-invented systems, etc.), so it shouldn't really come as a surprise that the results aren't that clear cut.

Damn straight on that one bro. And maybe I shouldn't ask those questions. But there's a reason for my questioning...

All this confusing canonical shit, is why fans are secretly writing their own animated series, and rewriting the Phoenix altogether. I've kinda peeked into these circles, and... with some of the wild ideas being brought to the table, is why I'm trying to ask comic readers for canon based opinions. But... with constant inconsistencies and retcons, I suppose this is why the writer has taken things into her own hands. She even said to me when I suggested to her what I believed to be canon about the Phoenix, she literally said "fuck that", followed by how her re-imagining of the Phoenix as a whole would revolutionize the X-Men universe, and be superior to what recent writers have done. I mean, all the X-Fans that have been in discussion with her, wholly supports her... interesting "innovative" ideas LOL

I mean, I did ask about quantum mechanics AS WELL as quantum metaphysics (a subject that no one here seems to have knowledge of), but... if its an "anything goes" situation at this point... what's the point of me even asking for canon opinions then? It seems more and more, canon doesn't matter anymore.

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PyroFN

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@teamgxone: To answer the why the Phoenix needs the energy thing, it’s because it’s cosmic Firebird form isn’t its natural state. The cosmic Firebird form is not a stable form, and thus needs the energy to maintain it. In its natural state, which is a formless energy state, it is limitless. But it chooses a cosmic energy form on the physical plane to experience sentience on a more human level.

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AsheTDust

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The big problem is that even canonical stated information changes over time.

Let’s use Superman as an example. Back in the silver age he could sneeze and destroy a universe. This was a canonical fact. Yet current Superman can not. Cannon changed over time with retcons.

The Phoenix Force from 30+ years ago needed energy from planets or unborn life to accomplish some of its feats. The current Phoenix Force does not. In fact there are scans floating around that state the current prime universe was started by the Phoenix Force. That she was the spark of creation that got everything going. Also that she is the well spring that all psychic energy comes from. Sounds like she generates it, doesn’t she?

So in essence the original early PF was a false quintessence force, while the current version is a true quintessence force.

It just changed over time.

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TeamGXOne

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@pyrofn: okay, and thanks for the scans :)

This seems like it kinda goes back to "Individual T's" argument with how... this metaphysical stuff would work, lol which puts my argument in a bit of a pickle. But... yeah, this is good proof from canon illustrating how the Phoenix works, and answers a little bit for me... how to put the Phoenix into perspective.

I still... have trouble understanding the difference in power between the Phoenix's "true form" vs. when taking on an actual form (that be the firebird or a host). Like... how come the Phoenix isn't able to tap into its own limitless energy, despite whatever form it takes? That may be a silly question, but... there's quite a few questions I have, and... I'm not sure my friends has all this right, canon wise...

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TeamGXOne

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@ashetdust: Well... then basically it's up to the interpretation of the author it seems.

I must say... I don't think the Life Force Tap is a retcon; upon doing some research, I've not found that's been retconned, and it is still listed as a necessary power/ability of the Phoenix, which would deed be one of several reasons it's being labeled a "false" quintessence force (which to clear up, is not calling the Phoenix a falsehood of any kind, only using the terms "false" and "true" to determine its ability/inability to actually generate energy, or if it more recycles and renews energy)

I'll be honest, in further research, I've not seen that proof of generation of energy. Recently I asked in another forum this same question, and was told TOAA and/or whatever current supreme cosmic embodiment (as in the First Firmament for example) spawned the Phoenix Force (alongside other abstract entities) to create a series of universes, within said cosmic embodiment. Scrapping about broken canon info here and there, what I was able to find seems true. Others brought up scans supporting that the Phoenix is "limitless" energy, however is not without its boundaries, therefore, shuffles and recycles energy around to do what it takes to keep the universe going.

Thus the importance of "the Judgement of the Phoenix" determining what doesn't work in its respective universe, "burn it away", and shift that energy towards growth or whatever. Others have also stated that this supports the scientific Law of Conservation of Energy (whatever its called), that energy can neither be created or destroyed, and explained this being the reason the Phoenix cannot truly die, however cannot "spawn" say, another Phoenix Force as "creating energy" is not within its parameters. I was recently told there's a difference between "possessing" limitless cosmic energy, and "generating" limitless cosmic energy, that the Phoenix is created energy from a source (that being TOAA or whatever Firmament/Cosmos) and being energy itself, it can't truly create or destroy energy, and thus it never dies, it always recycles itself.

Then if you REALLY wanna get crazy, my friends, the ones debating me in this argument, annihilated the "theory" of conservation of energy, stating in quantum metaphysics, the law of energy conservation does not always apply, meaning energy can indeed be created and destroyed. However, the case of the Phoenix Force, because of its duty and purpose, conservation of energy definitely applies (like... I dunno, just quoting them LOL)

I think its safe to say... there's no good consensus on how the Phoenix works in canon, thus so many retcons and inconsistencies. There's a silent, but growing movement of fans that are fleshing out a complete idea of how the Phoenix would and should work in sound, metaphysical sense and... it would honestly be nice if this sense of grounded solidity and foundation would be shared with canon.

As for my original argument, I personally was saying that the Phoenix has to possess "true" quintessence, but... based the continuation of the debate with my debaters, and the information I'm gathering here and elsewhere... I'm not so sure what to think anymore LOL

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JimmyX

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Nothing is perfect, even cosmic beings. Energy can neither be created or destroyed; therefore, Phoenix is a "false" quintessence force as it draws it's energy from the future unborn. (using your terminology as I've never heard that before) It seems as though in using this psionic essence, they aren't being sapped of their entire life-force, just tapped with the energy going back to the future.

there are such things as energy generators or those that create energy. i don't think the Phoenix creates energy since it draws its power form future unborn, which is pretty tragic. kinda like human sacrifice to get what you want don basically. and no in the very pages posted by another use r here after Galactis told Rachel how the phoenix works she realizes so many lives are sacrificed. so yea.

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JimmyX

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@teamgxone: I've never heard the term true and false quintesence i don't know where you get this werid stuff, and your always posting weird stuff around here lol

um... based on my knowledge of the phoenix, it is definitely FALSE quentessnce force. it is apart of the rules of the universe which is energy cannot be created or destryed. now in fiction there are characters that violate that rule, and so have a power that is somewhat beyond the Phoenix in that instance. But the way you say it would be correct that the Phoenix is constantly recylcing energy, destroying what doesnt work and recycles it into something new.

what whas this debate about? you speak in vague terms and i just find some of these questions weird. and probably why no one answers your questions often

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TeamGXOne

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@jimmyx: Idk what you're talking about, I've gotten quite a few answers.

I mean yeah, in essence, I think the majority would agree the Phoenix is "false" quintessent. I can ask whatever I want to ask, without anyone needing to know as for why. I'm in online debates, there those that propose where and how narratives could be improved, we debate each other on that, and that's pretty much that.

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JimmyX

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@teamgxone: hey im not trying to make enemies here, im a marvel fan that would like to converse with other marvel fans, and not some kind of troll thats all :)

if u dont mind, why tho is it important to even know whether or not the Phoenix is false or true energy?

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TeamGXOne

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@jimmyx said:

@teamgxone: hey im not trying to make enemies here, im a marvel fan that would like to converse with other marvel fans, and not some kind of troll thats all :)

if u dont mind, why tho is it important to even know whether or not the Phoenix is false or true energy?

I don't wanna make enemies either. Not sure if... I'm that welcomed here to begin with. My reason to be here is to converse with Marvel fans as well, not trolls either. As I've already explained in a different post, I'm a part of a Marvel anime series that is based on fan opinions. With that, there are a number of changes that... I'd like to discuss as best I can (without spoilers) and ask fans of canon Marvel, what are good and not good ideas for such project.

So... I was asking about "true" and "false" quintessence energy. It basically has to do with the ability to draw from one's internally generated power, or an external source, or a recycling of energy. By... the metaphysical definition, true quintessence is the ability to break the Law of Energy Conservation, thus an entity that generates/creates its own energy and force. A false quintessence being, is one who either relies on an external source, OR recycles existing energy that it taps into. Based on how the Phoenix operates, it is definitely a "false" quintessence force.

An idea was proposed about the Phoenix and its new "Cosmic Rival" that deals with quintessence energy. The idea in short, is that the Phoenix is a "false" quintessence energy, vs. the Cosmic Rival, who is "true" quintessence, and this playing a subtle role in their rivalry.

I wanted to know from canon, what kind of quintessence the Phoenix would be, to make sure these weird ideas, bears some semblance to canon.

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christianrapper

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#20  Edited By christianrapper

those ultimate uber powerful forces change all the time.

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yoyoyoyoBidD

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Kinda like Galactus in a way, he needs sustenance as well.

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One_TruePhoenix

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I agree with the Phoenix being a non-quintessence force thing. I mean that shouldn't be a debate, it runs off the souls of unborn babies LOL

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TeamGXOne

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I agree with the Phoenix being a non-quintessence force thing. I mean that shouldn't be a debate, it runs off the souls of unborn babies LOL

Well it's a little more to it than just that, but yea lol

The way it's going to be rewritten, would make it an obvious "false" quintessence force, while its new rival would be "true" quintessence.

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One_TruePhoenix

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@one_truephoenix said:

I agree with the Phoenix being a non-quintessence force thing. I mean that shouldn't be a debate, it runs off the souls of unborn babies LOL

Well it's a little more to it than just that, but yea lol

The way it's going to be rewritten, would make it an obvious "false" quintessence force, while its new rival would be "true" quintessence.

ooh rewritten? what do you mean by rewriting?

I wish the Phoenix had a clear story, its very interesting at least I think kno?

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TeamGXOne

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@one_truephoenix: Well... I've kinda answered you a while ago in another post. In case you missed it, a league of Marvel fans are writing their own X-Men story, and their own twist to the Phoenix Saga, with that being "The Phoenix Trilogy". The goal is to tell a more original story with the Phoenix and its new Cosmic Rival. They both explore Marvel's cosmic mythology, and combat each other on differences of opinions. The Phoenix is like "old school" cosmic, while the Cosmic Rival is "new school" or "next gen" cosmic type.

Their story becomes that of self reflection, dealing with inner demons, and "we are the makers of our own demons". On the flip, there's a story about atonement, self realization, and learning the lesson of carving your own destiny, in spite your origins and how others view you.

Of many Phoenix comics they're are, what's being pitched is the best thing I've heard yet.