Is Dawn of X worthy?

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iamre321

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#1  Edited By iamre321

When Hickman's new Dawn of X run was announced they announced it as the "next seminal moment in the history of the X-Men".

Supposed to be a fresh brand new pivotal run up there with Stan Lee's original run, Claremont's run, and Morrison's run...

No Caption Provided

It was very hyped , esp since Disney bought Fox, the X-men can come home to play. And Hickman himself is a very beloved and well-praised writer.

Now the question I gotta ask is- Did it live up to the hype?

Does it compare to the runs listed above?

My personal honest opinion is: No (this might be an unpopular one but we'll see)

I felt like House and Powers were basically nothing but set up for this new run. Powers introduced a bunch of new characters and stuff like the 3 headed sentinel but none of it really went anywhere. Mystery boxes are nice but if all it is is mystery then reveal followed by more mystery and reveal then its not a story its one big tease. House was decent I guess , nothing super memorable, bunch of new ideas and directions all leading to new titles, did it need 6 issues just to set up this new run? I don't personally think so.

This new Dawn of X run has like a million titles and like only 1 good one and 2 decent ones. The only good one that came out of it was Marauders with great art and a fun story (which isn't even written by Hickman). X-men and Wolverine are decent but nothing too amazing. I was especially disappointed by the Fallen Angels one... How do you make a title with Psylocke and a black ops team boring!?! and yet some how they managed.

Thoughts?

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Koays

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I dont feel comfortable answering this....

Is it a seminal moment? Yes. The game has been changed and short of waking up and it being a dream it's not changing back.

Otherwise....were really only 10 issues into all the books.....

10 issues into Claremont, Morrison 90s X-Men or even Stan Lee's run we didnt know ANY of what they would become known for....

Sorry, but COVID kinda killed any "year in review" type thing because all of the books have barely finished their set up story arcs

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Vishop_

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#3  Edited By Vishop_

Don't know whether this is supposed to be "seminal" moment or not but GSX or NXM and even Hickman's X-Men have all changed the status quo by a lot.

Aside from all the controversies with Disney buying Fox(trust me I am not a fan of this either) and everything around it, it will be the same for Hickman because almost all of these moments have similar controversies. FACT

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McKlayn

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So, yea? I mean its odd to answer it but honestly AoA is convoluted, and not really all its hyped to be. And the X men blue / Gold is honestly where the Franchise started taking a Dive sure the rosters were cool and Jim Lee is a beast, its also the rosters that the Cartoon borrowed from but all the best stories really come from before then and you could make a case saying that is when things started getting convoluted and too confusing to be worth while, and Ive been very outspoken saying Morrison is over rated.

Still with all that being said, 4 of the above 5 (AOA excluded) totally changed the landscape of of the X men I would actually say House of M / Decimation is more deserving than AOA. Either way if that is what they are deciding it being seminal than Hickman has delivered and really rehashed and changed things. If its good or bad, who knows he build slow and we got months taken away due to covid so yea

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PyroFN

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#5  Edited By PyroFN

@iamre321: My answer is pretty much mimicking the same thought as @koays. Because he’s right in the scheme of things.

•Yes and no.

Now the question I gotta ask is- Did it live up to the hype?

As @koays had said, co-vid killed the traction Marvel had planned.

Even when things were hated, they at least made decisions controversial and different in comparison to the status quo of X-Men stories normally. They had everyone talking about what happened in a single book of the Dawn of X title.

So, when co-vid came, everything came fo a complete halt. So, the no answer is in the respect that they aren’t done yet. Until they do put everything out for everyone to judge and react to, we can’t say definitively.

What little they did have though, it is a big yes. They had changed the X-Men status quo, fundamentally. Like koays said, short of a massive retcon, there is no going back.

Does it compare to the runs listed above?

Right now? No.

It’s an unfair question though because they aren’t finished yet. Put Claremont’s run in the same situation as what Hickman’s run is in, where the Dark Phoenix didn’t happen and they are barely diving he beginning of the Phoenix Saga, could we say it would have as big an impact as it does now?

Let’s look at Claremonts run 10 issues in. What happens from Uncanny 94-104:

The second team goes on their first mission together after the original leaves.

•They have their first death in the X-Men by their teammate, Thunderbird.

•They meet the N’Garai for the first time.

•Erik the Red is revealed with a mind-controlled Polaris and Havok.

•The X-Men are kidnapped by Sentinels.

•Jean Grey dies and becomes Phoenix.

•The X-Men go to Scotland without Scott, who is with Jean at the hospital, and are trapped by the Juggernaut and the newly revealed Tom Cassidy.

•We learn of Storm’s claustrophobia and of some elves hiding in Cassidy keep.

•Storm is freed from the prison and they defeat Juggernaut and Cassidy while Scott goes to pick them up at the end of the issue.

What among these are status quo breaking that would have changed the X-Men for good? At the time, we probably would have only noted the new team, the constant threat of Erik the Red for having Havok and Polaris under his thrall, and Jean becoming Phoenix with no way of knowing how powerful she truly had become because she hadn’t even gotten to fight Firelord.

This is the kind of situation Hickman is in.

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iamre321

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@mcklayn:I think most X-men fans would disagree, no offense. I will agree and say House of M/Decimation is up there with AoA though.

@koays:@vishop_: @pyrofn:

Interesting points but here is what I will say. There's been about 46 issues from Hickman's new run (I didn't count exactly but seems around there). That's a lot of issues to tell at least one interesting story. Like I said only good one out of all these I feel is Marauders and he's not even the writer.

I don't buy the excuse that he's just getting started because like I said he's already had like 50 something books under Dawn. One of the titles is even finished. Can you name anything that's very new or exciting?

Claremont's had all those new characters, iconic ones like storm, nightcrawler, colossus, etc... introduced Phoenix, DP, DOFP, etc...

Morrison's run had Cassandra Nova, Fantomex, Xorn, Secondary mutations, Xavier's as a school, etc...

What is one new exciting character or plot idea from Dawn? I can't think of a single one, and that Powers of X techno mumbo jumbo came across as very pretentious tbh.

Now let's just to the 2nd point, that this new Dawn is a game changer. What exactly is the game changer?

-Mutants living in their own society / nation.

Been done already countless times; Astroid M, Genosha, Utopia, even the latest X-men Red had it.

-Heroes and villains working together.

Done countless times, esp in the X-men comics.

-Deaths and Ressurections.

A very annoying trope that has really escalated within the last few years. No one takes deaths seriously anymore. There's no way this will be the status quo. Something will happen like Krokoa's gonna get bombed or one of the five will die.

Nothing new or super ground breaking tbh imo....

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Koays

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@iamre321: Honestly.....by that logic Morrison is responsible for Austens nonsense.

I mean to be frank....and I will because it's not really worth going back and forth....your basically using Hindsight, petty rules counting other peoples issues, and out of context comparisons to say something doesnt measure up....

It's been 10 issues....Marauders is great, X-Force is fine, New Mutants is cool, and X-Men has laid the ground work for 5 different plotlines already, Krakoas concept is a completely new take on the verse.....so what are you really saying?

It's hard to know, because your kinda making alot of false parallels to reinforce an unfulfilled parallel.

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LowMageKage

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The X-Men were always home, the hell is that all about?

I'm enjoying some issues of X-Men, but Wolverine and X-Force are my favorite, even that one with Havok is kinda cool.

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PyroFN

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#9  Edited By PyroFN
@iamre321 said:

@mcklayn:I think most X-men fans would disagree, no offense. I will agree and say House of M/Decimation is up there with AoA though.

@koays:@vishop_: @pyrofn:

Interesting points but here is what I will say. There's been about 46 issues from Hickman's new run (I didn't count exactly but seems around there). That's a lot of issues to tell at least one interesting story. Like I said only good one out of all these I feel is Marauders and he's not even the writer.

You're putting responsibility on Hickman for books he didn’t even write. Hell, you basically just commended Marauders and admitted that it wasn’t a book he wrote, but you’re gonna put the opinion that Dawn of X needs more interesting stories based on a collective of series that have their own thing all on Hickman? Hickman isn’t the editor. The books do follow a specific story parallel to the main book, but they can only go as far as what the main book reveals.

Even if he were responsible though, you mean to tell me that someone spearheading multiple books is a disappointment when none of those books had gotten to finish their storylines?

I don't buy the excuse that he's just getting started because like I said he's already had like 50 something books under Dawn. One of the titles is even finished. Can you name anything that's very new or exciting?

1) The books are their own individual stories that don’t follow the main storyline. If they all had been continuing a single story one after the other, id have agreed. But one book has nothing to do with the other because their focus isn’t on Hickman’s storyline. They are stories that go on alongside the main book.

2) Since you’re including House/ Powers of X with the main story, as well as every book under the sun:

•New Resurrection Protocols

•Moira being a mutant and alive

•New Omega Level Mutants List

•Krakoa‘s return as a safe haven for mutants

•The mutants declaring their own nation again. This time everyone important, except Franklin Richards, have joined the island.

•The destruction of the Sentinel Factory (Red-Herring, but considering the big deal being made about them in House and Powers, it’s noteworthy)

•Apocalypse and literally every mutant villain joins Krakoa

•The Death of Kitty Pryde (With so far no way of resurrecting her because of some unrevealed plot point)

•The First Assassination of Krakoa

•Jean’s throuple with Logan and Scott (you saw the headlines after that issue came out. Like it or not, it counts)

I can keep going, but I’d rather move on.

Claremont's had all those new characters, iconic ones like storm, nightcrawler, colossus, etc... introduced Phoenix, DP, DOFP, etc...

You mean iconic characters by the end of his run or at least middle of his run. Tell me what you learn about them based on the ten issues of Uncanny before skipping to iconic status.

Let’s look at the arcs you named:

•Phoenix: In isn’t beginning stages with Claremont not even managing to make it to Firelord if he were in Hickman’s situation

•Dark Phoenix: Takes place way after the Phoenix Saga

•DoFP: Takes place way, way after Phoenix Saga

Hindsight is 20/20, but take that hindsight away and concentrate on Claremont’s run ten issues in and tell me what status quo breaking plot points you get.

Morrison's run had Cassandra Nova, Fantomex, Xorn, Secondary mutations, Xavier's as a school, etc...

Let’s go again:

•Cassandra Nova: Ten issues in, barely finishes.

•Fantomex: Takes place after Cassandra ends.

•Xorn: Barely introduces and doesnmt have any relevance until the end of Morrisons run.

•Secondary Mutations: Largely unknown Even way after Morrison’s run. Seriously, next to no writers outside of Morrison, Bunn, and maybe a couple of obscure moments actually make use of this plot point.

•Xavier’s as a school: The most legitimate change.

That leaves Morrison’s run having Cassandra and the school as status quo changers of the run.

What is one new exciting character or plot idea from Dawn? I can't think of a single one, and that Powers of X techno mumbo jumbo came across as very pretentious tbh.

This sounds very opinion based. There were numerous changes made. Whether you like them or not seems to be what is painting your outlook. Seriously, we learned this:

•Destiny’s bid for Mystique to bring her back

•Moira’s retcon

•Magneto and Storm are Omega’s

•Jean’s throuple

•Krakoa’s return

•Kitty Pryde teaming up with Emma and dying

•The Five

•Apocalypse allying with Krakoa

•Vulcan’s return

And so on and so forth.

Now let's just to the 2nd point, that this new Dawn is a game changer. What exactly is the game changer?

-Mutants living in their own society / nation.

Been done already countless times; Astroid M, Genosha, Utopia, even the latest X-men Red had it.

Mutants were never this united before

-Heroes and villains working together.

Done countless times, esp in the X-men comics.

Not at this scale.

-Deaths and Ressurections.

A very annoying trope that has really escalated within the last few years. No one takes deaths seriously anymore. There's no way this will be the status quo. Something will happen like Krokoa's gonna get bombed or one of the five will die.


Opinion.

And it is the status quo. They literally explain the inner workings and use it countless times throughout Dawn of X. It’s not a one-off point that will be forgotten. The entirety of Krakoa’s hope and belief centers around the plot of mutants coming back through this protocol. Mutants get their powers back through it. Their sense of safety is shattered when Cerebro is destroyed along with Xavier assassinated. Its the status quo currently.

Whether they will change it in the future is not known, but as of right now, whether you like it or not, it’s what is happening.

Nothing new or super ground breaking tbh imo....

It’s ground-breaking in the scale they are doing it. If these were one-off points per story arc, I’d see what you mean, but they aren’t doing things the same way.

You could say the trope themselves are uninspiring, but that would bleed into fiction entirely as a medium, which would in turn be a fault of writing as a whole and not X-Men for using a trope that has worked for centuries in literature.

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cattlebattle

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Is it seminal because it was successful and rebooted the X-men?? Absolutely.

Did it live up to the hype?? I guess. It sold really well and a lot of people seem to really enjoy it.

Does it compare to the runs listed in the picture?? Of course. HoX/PoX is well written. Lee and Kirby's run isn't that great, even by the standards of the time, Giant Sized X-Men is a cheesy story where the X-men fight monsters on an island, Second Genesis is remembered for Lee's art more than anything, Age of Apocalypse is a big what if story that was cool for it's time and Morrison's work is divisive among fans. So, I would actually say Hickman's is the best among what's listed.

I personally was somewhat let down by Hickman's stuff. It's good but I had hoped for a new status quo to be established, instead, it's sort of rehashing old ideas, making some things more needlessly convoluted, and Hickman seems to ignore continuity or a character's past developments when it's convenient for him.

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TheInsufferable

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#11  Edited By TheInsufferable

@cattlebattle said: Does it compare to the runs listed in the picture?? Of course. HoX/PoX is well written. Lee and Kirby's run isn't that great, even by the standards of the time, Giant Sized X-Men is a cheesy story where the X-men fight monsters on an island, Second Genesis is remembered for Lee's art more than anything, Age of Apocalypse is a big what if story that was cool for it's time and Morrison's work is divisive among fans. So, I would actually say Hickman's is the best among what's listed.

I agree with this. Stan Lee pretty much phoned it in for most of the stuff that weren't FF or Spider-Man; and X-Men was among the worst cases. Giant-Sized is mostly loved because of the characters it brought rather than the story itself. Second Genesis was Lee and the others taking over Claremont, and if anything, it was a decrease in story quality and a rehash of stuff that had already been done because the new guys wanted to do it. AoA hasn't aged that nicely. New X-Men is mostly important because of stuff that was influenced by it like Whedon's run rather than the run itself, and most of its new and "novel" ideas were either based on the X-Men movie or were among Morrison's usual fetishes.

As for Hickman himself, it seems like he usually starts with a bang and ends with a bang, but loses the threads in the middle and bore you until the third act. At least that was the case with Time Runs Out, Secret Wars, etc.

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iamre321

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@koays:No because just like how Morrison isn't responsible for Austen's nonsense / failure, Hickman isn't responsible for Marauder's success.

I'll admit I'm a little unfamiliar with how Dawn worked. I'm not sure which specific books he works on, but I thought he was the one that was spearheaded Dawn and basically planned this big new "pivotal" moment? I know he did House and Powers and X-men currently, all decent but nothing that I thought was ground breaking.

@pyrofn: Yours is too long to reply to lol, so I'll add you to my response to@cattlebattle: and @theinsufferable:

You guys are right in that I can't fully judge/review it when it hasn't been completed yet. That's fair. Ultimately my thing is if they have the gall to compare it to those runs and say stuff like 'the next seminal moment in X-men history' etc... then they sure as hell better have the goods to back it up. I get that it was a marketing gimmick to sell books but believe me I was one of the most excited people for this new Dawn, X-men are finally home to Disney, Hickman has a great reputation (though I haven't read his FF run so I wouldn't know), and the way they hyped up this "dawn". So I had really high expectations coming in and SO FAR its been kinda disappointing.

I don't think you should talk bad about Lee and Kirby's run, yes it was a product of its time, but its still amazing what they created. Before that there were no mutants, etc... every other run owes its existence to the original.

2nd Genesis- Lee's art, that's fair.

I will agree and say that I think Whedon's run should be up there with the others in terms of quality but I'm guessing it wasn't included cause it immediately followed Morrison's run. Pretty rare to have 2 really good runs right next to each other.

Yes Morrison's run was divisive and controversial but I still remember it 20 years later, its an exciting and good read, I'll be honest House and Powers was only like a year ago and I already forgot. The biggest / most exciting thing I would say is the Moira reveal.

"I personally was somewhat let down by Hickman's stuff. It's good but I had hoped for a new status quo to be established, instead, it's sort of rehashing old ideas, making some things more needlessly convoluted, and Hickman seems to ignore continuity or a character's past developments when it's convenient for him." - Yep, exactly. We agree.

At the end of the day so far it hasn't been bad, way better than Rosenberg's run, but to me so far it hasn't lived up to the hype.

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AsheTDust

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#13  Edited By AsheTDust

Like others I feel it may be too early to judge this run of comics. It could end up being great or it could end up being really lame. Time will tell of course.

My main problem is how the status quo changed. We used to have a group of underdogs fighting for freedom to be accepted for who they were. Now we have an island nation of people who exhibit increasing aggressive cultish behavior aimed at both themselves and the world around them, while they influence global events and are considered 1%ers.

It’s been a very jarring and inorganic transition that honestly leaves me feeling like I don’t really know these characters any more. And not in a good way.

Change is inevitable and should not be feared. But at the same time you don’t want to make changes just for the sake of making changes.

If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it so much it does.

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iamre321

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#14  Edited By iamre321

Like others I feel it may be too early to judge this run of comics. It could end up being great or it could end up being really lame. Time will tell of course.

My main problem is how the status quo changed. We used to have a group of underdogs fighting for freedom to be accepted for who they were. Now we have an island nation of people who exhibit increasing aggressive cultish behavior aimed at both themselves and the world around them, while they influence global events and are considered 1%ers.

It’s been a very jarring and inorganic transition that honestly leaves me feeling like I don’t really know these characters any more. And not in a good way.

Change is inevitable and should not be feared. But at the same time you don’t want to make changes just for the sake of making changes.

If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it so much it does.

I agree, yeah seems like that cultish behavior is honestly the big change. Not one I like per se but it is something new. I'm curious to see where they go from here.

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Vishop_

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I personally was somewhat let down by Hickman's stuff. It's good but I had hoped for a new status quo to be established, instead, it's sort of rehashing old ideas, making some things more needlessly convoluted, and Hickman seems to ignore continuity or a character's past developments when it's convenient for him.

Honestly, I am tired of this type of criticism. Almost any decent comic has been rehashing some old ideas and when someone tries to take things into a new direction they get worried. I think Hickman took things to the next level of the status quo. You don't see Apocalypse and X-Men on the same roof just like that especially in prime 616.

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cattlebattle

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@vishop_ said:

Honestly, I am tired of this type of criticism. Almost any decent comic has been rehashing some old ideas and when someone tries to take things into a new direction they get worried. I think Hickman took things to the next level of the status quo. You don't see Apocalypse and X-Men on the same roof just like that especially in prime 616.

Regardless of whether you're sick of it or not, it's still a valid criticism. The X-men franchise writers have a bad habit of treading the same old ground and adding little caveats and acting like "no wait!! this time it's different!! I swear!" While some ideas keep consistent there has been plenty of examples of writers taking franchises in different directions and keeping things fresh.

As for Apocalypse joining; a long running joke about the X-men is all their villains tend to join them. In fact, it would be hard to actually think of a major villain off the top of your head that hasn't joined them at one time--Magneto, Juggernaut, Emma Frost, Mystique, Sabertooth, Sebastian Shaw, Spiral etc. they even had a squad of Sentinels and Karima Shapinder is a Sentinel. The joke was "well, it's a matter of time before Mr Sinister, Apocalypse and Shadow King join"....which has actually happened now. I'm sure Shadow King is mulling about somewhere on that island.

Honestly, I have more of a problem with character and continuity inconsistency than anything. A person above mentioned how Krakoa is similar to Utopia, Genosha, Searebro Sea world shit, Avalon etc. Krakoa is a little more nuanced, but it is still the concept of mutants having an ethnostate.

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Vishop_

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#17  Edited By Vishop_

@cattlebattle:

Regardless of whether you're sick of it or not, it's still a valid criticism. The X-men franchise writers have a bad habit of treading the same old ground and adding little caveats and acting like "no wait!! this time it's different!! I swear!" While some ideas keep consistent there has been plenty of examples of writers taking franchises in different directions and keeping things fresh.

Honestly, I have more of a problem with character and continuity inconsistency than anything. A person above mentioned how Krakoa is similar to Utopia, Genosha, Searebro Sea world shit, Avalon etc. Krakoa is a little more nuanced, but it is still the concept of mutants having an ethnostate.

I haven't seen plenty of examples in x-books from the same writers that haven't been rehashed and didn't have continuity problems before in the comic book industry. But if you have anyone in your mind then I would gladly like to know.

As for Apocalypse joining; a long running joke about the X-men is all their villains tend to join them. In fact, it would be hard to actually think of a major villain off the top of your head that hasn't joined them at one time--Magneto, Juggernaut, Emma Frost, Mystique, Sabertooth, Sebastian Shaw, Spiral etc. they even had a squad of Sentinels and Karima Shapinder is a Sentinel. The joke was "well, it's a matter of time before Mr Sinister, Apocalypse and Shadow King join"....which has actually happened now. I'm sure Shadow King is mulling about somewhere on that island.

When was the last time Apocalypse was decently written for a certain period? Magneto and Emma Frost or Mystique have consistently been on and off X-Men characters. Those characters can be barely recognized as x-villains( or anti-villains) because most of them have consistently been villains for the first few years and they had connections with X-Men.

Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister, on the other hand, have always been x-villains but the status quo of X-Men has changed.

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iamre321

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@vishop_ said:

Honestly, I am tired of this type of criticism. Almost any decent comic has been rehashing some old ideas and when someone tries to take things into a new direction they get worried. I think Hickman took things to the next level of the status quo. You don't see Apocalypse and X-Men on the same roof just like that especially in prime 616.

Regardless of whether you're sick of it or not, it's still a valid criticism. The X-men franchise writers have a bad habit of treading the same old ground and adding little caveats and acting like "no wait!! this time it's different!! I swear!" While some ideas keep consistent there has been plenty of examples of writers taking franchises in different directions and keeping things fresh.

As for Apocalypse joining; a long running joke about the X-men is all their villains tend to join them. In fact, it would be hard to actually think of a major villain off the top of your head that hasn't joined them at one time--Magneto, Juggernaut, Emma Frost, Mystique, Sabertooth, Sebastian Shaw, Spiral etc. they even had a squad of Sentinels and Karima Shapinder is a Sentinel. The joke was "well, it's a matter of time before Mr Sinister, Apocalypse and Shadow King join"....which has actually happened now. I'm sure Shadow King is mulling about somewhere on that island.

Honestly, I have more of a problem with character and continuity inconsistency than anything. A person above mentioned how Krakoa is similar to Utopia, Genosha, Searebro Sea world shit, Avalon etc. Krakoa is a little more nuanced, but it is still the concept of mutants having an ethnostate.

Exactly, I agree with this. Its still valid criticism. I think we all understand the challengers writers face because fans all want different things; some want big status quo changes, others don't, there are expectations to keep characters the same, etc... Obviously its hard and there's no perfect way to do it, if there were machines would be writing stories not humans. Its a tricky process but one advantage writers have these days vs 10 years ago is instantaneous feedback. What we are saying is so far its been somewhat disappointing.

I'm not as disappointed with the new status changes which are just the old tropes turned up to 11 , I'm more disappointed with the fact that the stories are kinda boring so far.

The one thing that I would say is kinda new and exciting is that fact that they are acting like a superior cult , its an interesting dynamic, I'm wondering if there will be some sort schism when some people oppose their way. Nothing else new really excites me though, don't care about krokoan language.