Did Jean really reach and/or surpass Xavier in telepathy?

I recently got interested in the mutant power telepathy in marvel and started going through old thread about jean, xavier etc and i noticed a lot of debate on whether or not jean is actually on xavier's level, both in power and skill. I could not figure out what the consensus was from what I managed to read so I thought i'd ask here. What do you guys think of the topic? Did Jean really reach his level, and even surpass him?

needless to say, no phoenix force for Jean

in terms of raw power, Jean surpassed him for sure. When it comes to skill though, that one is a close call. I personally don't know for sure, I still lean towards Xavier though, but again, i believe it is up for debate

Phoenix ya.

Jean Grey herself no.

@dernman: Wrong. I will need a minute to gather notes and type the info I can give because this will be quite the close comparison.

Also tagging @lordofallhumans and @Roddy010, whom made that glorious Most powerful psi thread.

Jean is more powerful​ than Xavier (something he's always known especially before the Phoenix retcon which showcased her being above him and Emma). As far as skilled Jean was no longer his student which suggests there was nothing left to teach her equalizing skill at least with her being able to do things he's deemed telepathically impossible allowing her to use her greater power to develop skills he can't copy because his power is not on the same level.

I guess Lord put it together short and simple. Better thanthan I ever could.

There is "The Most Powerful Psi in the World" thread all about Jean without the Phoenix and her accomplishments in the Jean Grey part of the forums on Comicvine. There are some pretty good ones in there. I always refer to it when I am on Marvel Heroes forums to suggest powers for Jean in that game.

What is a pity is that it is sort of dead now. Would have loved to have seen more if there ever was, which there probably is.

Emma said that jean is the most skilled telepath. Emma once beaten xavier. Jean just played around and bullied emma. Jean also went through the traps that casandra nova put on xavier with ease while Emma got stuck on the 1st trap.

to be fair, emma set an elaborate trap, she did not beat xavier

@marvelfan1992: well, xavier still fell for it.

I think jean clearly surpassed Xavier after the jean-psylocke powe switch

@ghostrider88: jean has the phoenix here so i don't think we can give her credit for this.

I really would have preferred if they didn't retcon the phoenix to be a cosmic entity and just let it be jean's own power. Does anyone know where it was talked about that they decide to retcon the phoenix from being jean's natural progression and turning it into a cosmic entity?

@lordofallhumans: does not being his student anymore necessarily equate to not having anything to teach though?

@onsipin: IMO it does. When Xaiver lost his powers after Onslaught Jean was called the most powerful telepath on Earth taking his spot. Since Jean was always more powerful than him we can conclude being the most powerful telepath on Earth is just as much about skill as it is power which is why she was second to him before Onslaught. After his powers returned Jean was no longer regarded as second to him suggesting she had equal skill combined with the aforementioned power. At this point they were peers and he'd already stated she accomplished something he deemed telepathically impossible when she took Emma's body. So that suggests there was nothing left to teach her.

@marvelfan1992: IIRC it was fully fleshed out during Inferno when the Phoenix saved Jean from Maddie.

@marvelfan1992: Says who? If the question is: Did she ever surpass Professor X in telepathy, then the answer is yes. Doesnt matter what it was that made her this way, she was Phoenix. Just like Brock was Venom. Besides, she was already a telepath, its not like she actually got her telepathy skills solely from the Phoenix, it merely enhanced her powers.

However, if this is the Jean this thread is strictly referring to, then i'd say no, probably not

No not without the Phoenix. Teen Jean written by Bendis would come the closest.

@ghostrider88: OP says no phoenix for jean so...

Didnt Xavier pretty much imply this when she did something that he falt out said shouldnt have been possible and he proclaimes he had nothing left to teach her.

The only question on this should be whether or not the feat in question (splitting Xaviers mind across the planet and setting it up to come back together under a specific set of circumstances.) Is hers or.the phoenixs...and being as the feat comes during a time when she is getting stronger but still not capable of calling on the power of the phoenix...well then it mean the feat is hers and she is capable of feats of power/skill that Xavier cant replicate. Which makes her at least the closest rival to him among X-telepaths

In terms of raw power, maybe it can go to Jean, but when it comes to skill and experience, it go to Xavier.

As it should be.

@Roddy010: yo Roddy, where's that last pic from? Is it Xmen first class, or Marvel girl one shot (I keep seeing an old preview of this, but never seen the comic)

@del_torro: It's from X-Men: First Class: Marvel Girl

@roddy2010: not trying to dispute whether jean has surpassed Xavier or not, but don't these scans just point to her potential and not show "evidence" of her actually surpassing Xavier? Coz i dont think anyone doubts that Jean is more powerful and would eventually surpass him, it's just a matter of has she done in her time in the comics. And are any of those aside from the new x-men one Cannon? I think the biggest feat she has is her taking Xavier's mind into her own then splintering it across the planet to people, but some people argue that she was already tapping into the Phoenix's powers (albeit not all of it's power, but some) and that she used cerebro/a to achieve the feat which is a huge power boost

@marvelfan1992: All of those scans are canon dear, Two of them are from X-men First Class which take place within the 616 universe. The other obviously from new X-men.

but don't these scans just point to her potential and not show "evidence" of her actually surpassing Xavier?

They show that Xavier himself always knew Jean would surpass him and she did right before she transcended into Phoenix. She grew as Beast stated in the New X-men scan in skill and power and has accomplished things Xavier has not. Including the psychic surgery that saved his life.

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I think the biggest feat she has is her taking Xavier's mind into her own then splintering it across the planet to people, but some people argue that she was already tapping into the Phoenix's powers

And those people would be wrong for multiple reasons. I think Morrison made it pretty clear Jean could only make contact with the Phoenix and wasn't exactly tapping it's power.

1. Jean has been manifesting the Phoenix raptor since the Revolution Era. After switching powers with Psylocke her telepathy grew (and remained this way until her death). Her telepathic attacks resembled a Phoenix raptor.

2. The second scan I posted Beast dismiss the fact that this is a Phoenix manifestation by stating Jean is simply " A growing Omega Mutant" his diagnostic read that she was fine and I'm pretty sure if they were of the cosmic level he would be the first to know.

3. X-men 150, jean clearly explains that the phoenix is a separate entity to Logan. Stating that "if she gets to close to it, it replaces her" and that "she's still human and is only learning to grow in her own power".

4. Logan had to kill her to "wake the Phoenix Consciousness"

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and that she used cerebro/a to achieve the feat which is a huge power boost

Even using Cerebra Xavier deemed that feat telepathically impossible so that point would be moot.

I overlooked Morrison's run due to the Phoenix being hinted at from the beginning.

@marvelfan1992: It was in Avengers #263 that the Avengers find Jeans cocoon, which leads into Fantastic Four #286 where she emerges and the holeoempathic crystal triggers Jean's memories in the space mission, and then it leads to the starts up of X-Factor #1. The back-story further expanded in Classic X-Men #8 and #43.

All rolled up and simply titled altogether as "The Phoenix Rising". I love reading those stories. It was better than the original plan, not only to make Phoenix separate, but to make it evil, with Jean forcefully embedding her soul into it.

@roddy2010: I have been wondering if the First Class canon was canon to the 616. Cool! That means she really did download Colleen Wings and Misty Knights martial arts!!

Indeed although I wish she utilized those skills :/

@roddy2010: ah I see, so they're canon. Thanks for the thorough explanation, can always count on you to shed light on jean related things haha! I really wish they just had jean beat cassandra nova in a straight up battle though, but oh well we take what we can. They had the 3 best telepaths (or one of the best in Emma's case) in the world, they could have done so much more with them

@marvelfan1992: No problem hun, I'm always here to help. :)

@roddy2010: Agreed. Someone on the Marvel Heroes forum sorta wants a Jean with martial arts skills integrated in her fighting style, like Psylocke, but more along he lines of kung fu like the kun lun martial artists. I kind of agree to an extent. It was really cool watching Phoenix use a telekinetic empowered kick not only in those comics, but multiple fighting games where she does have to get physical.

Even if Jean did not "surpass" Xavier, his advantage in skill would not be enough for him to overcome the power difference between them would it? Or does Jean not "surpassing" Xavier in this instance translate to her not coming out the winner in a battle?

@marvelfan1992: no matter what you think of the did or didnt surpass debate Jean and Xavier would be a stalemate due to the power and skill between them being so close and there being no definetive evidence that one could beat the other in a majority at their most recent levels

@marvelfan1992: Normally, I would refer to the Emma Frost vs Rachel example, but the difference between those two and Jean vs Xavier is Jean actually has the skill from Xavier and her own experience to back that overwhelming amount of power at her beck and call. If we really want to stretch some examples for the power over skill debate, we could got to teen Jean vs Xorn Jean, where teen Jean took advantage of Xorn Jean's self-imposed power cap to win the psychic battle. Then there is teen Jean vs Oracle and teen Jean vs Xavier Jr. and the Cuckoos. Like I said, the skill vs power debates has been proven with skill triumphing over power whereas the other piece is sketchy. That said, Jean is still that rare case where even if she wasn't above Xavier, does that mean she loses?

In my honest opinion, I think she would overcome Xavier even if she were below him in skill before she died. She should at least have been close enough to be able to not only predict his attack stylings, but actually surprise attack him similar to the way he reacts to her 'impossible' feats.

@koays: I disagree with that claim. Though the skill is close, the power is not. She clearly not only has more potential, she has more power to spare than he could dream of. It is the very reason why her kids could realistically have such powerful psychic powers. Lordofallhumans has also mentioned of a time where Jean was mentioned as the most powerful psi after Xavier lost his telepathy, and never gained the title back even after he regained it while she was alive. Couple this with the impossible feats she has under her belt, it is very likely to assume that not only would Jean outlast him in a battle, but she would have kept the title of most powerful psychic as time would continue.

@pyrofn: Your not completely wrong about her being so incredibly powerful that her genome makes up half the mutant Uber Tier. But to say that her useable power is so much greater than his that his knowledge (both intimately of her mind and as a psychic in general) and power (which has allowed him to go up against powerful variations of her) would win out simply due to time isnt a fair assessment considering how good they both really are. So Jean might win if they go into double super secret overtime but who's to say if they fought again Xavier would let it come to that? Or Jean?

And while its obvious that eventually she wouldve surpassed Xavier by at least half a mile, its drastically underselling Xaviers accomplishments and history to say that at the time of her death she was his clear superior or if she was that she remained this after his boost following X-Men Legacy.

Its not to say that Xavier or Jea ln is the better. Its just that if you come in thinking one is better then the other, hearing all the facts isnt going to shift you either way in this instance do to variables and vagueness in the source material.

@koays: True about making the decision to soon, as I've done, though I do make sure to keep things open as I'm allowed to change my mind as others are allowed to explain their point of view. I will come with a rebuttle if I still have doubt, more so if I disagree, naturally. And the question does pose some critical thinking for those who know both characters history, which is why it isn't unwarranted.

As for the power thing, I get that assessment if it were just Jean Grey's power at play here, like how Bendis wrote teen Jean. (At least the one good thing Lemire did was actually give Jean some skill, not much and still gave horrible writing.) The real Jean not only has the power to back her, but the skill to use it. It isn't just Xavier's training, but her own experiences to add to her omega level status. Even if we weren't to agree that she was above him, or even on par with him, we could still agree that she was close enough to warrant her above all others and actually make her a peer. (If she was antagonistic, she'd be a rival.) It is that deadly combination that puts her rankings above Xavier, rather than it being pure power, again unlike teen Jean.

Xavier's accomplishments are not underscored in my opinion with Jean being acknowledged as surpassing him. In fact, I feel it only honors him, like how a child honors their parents passively by behaving the way the parents taught or when a student graduates by using the knowledge passed on from their teachers. She would be one of his greatest accomplishments. (And in my opinion, greatest accomplishment above all others, period.)

@pyrofn: Which is basically what ive been saying. They are especially close to eachother. To say one is stronger (power + skill) then the other is very difficult, but to say one can beat the other is impossible. There's no fear of underselling Xavier by saying that hes been surpassed...but theres no fact that can be presented to say that she's completely done that or to say that hes still her superior.

They are comparable psychics, whose strengths in power skill and experience leave them close enough that it just depends on the day to say who is superior.

@koays: Unfortunately, that day won't exactly come until Jean lives again with Charles Xavier coming back along with her. So until then, we have to draw the conclusions with what we got. And from my perspective, she has what she needs necessary to not only match him but outlast him in a psychic duel.