Better Comic Book Run: Brubaker's Uncanny X-Men or Remender's Uncanny X-Force

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Vishop_

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#1  Edited By Vishop_

The title says it all.

Rise and Fall of Sh'ir Empire vs The Dark Angel Saga

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adamTRMM

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Brubaker. The main downer in his run was how dimensionless Vulcan turned out to be. Which is sad since his origin implied a more complex character.

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Koays

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What Adam said.

I like remender.. but Brubaker is much better as an X-Men story....image fact that it spun into an epic space opera with the war of kings like that only made it better

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@koays said:

What Adam said.

I like remender.. but Brubaker is much better as an X-Men story....image fact that it spun into an epic space opera with the war of kings like that only made it better

I like the concept behind Final Horsemen more than Vulcan......which was a retcon. I agree that Vulcan had to great stories but UXF also spun off with Apocalypse Twins. Apocalypse>Vulcan. Though I am kinda biased but the concepts behind Apocalpyse seemed more refreshing and unique IMO.

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HAWK2916

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#5  Edited By HAWK2916

Both were good runs. Brubaker did some great work and while many dont care for Vulcan Ive always found him pretty interesting more so than Cable and Xman and all. Remender put in some great work on Dark Angel Saga. I also liked his Uncanny Avengers up until the Red Skull/Onslaught thing

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adamTRMM

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#6  Edited By adamTRMM

@vishop_ said:
@koays said:

What Adam said.

I like remender.. but Brubaker is much better as an X-Men story....image fact that it spun into an epic space opera with the war of kings like that only made it better

I like the concept behind Final Horsemen more than Vulcan......which was a retcon. I agree that Vulcan had to great stories but UXF also spun off with Apocalypse Twins. Apocalypse>Vulcan. Though I am kinda biased but the concepts behind Apocalpyse seemed more refreshing and unique IMO.

Honestly, Final Horsemen make as much sense as does Neanderthal Apocalypse... And when these Horsemen can be taken out by street levelers the hype isn't worth a damn. I can't name a single good development of the Apocalypse mythos Remender introduced, honestly. Genocide was cool, yeah. But we all know where he was first introduced.

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Vishop_

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@adamtrmm said:
@vishop_ said:
@koays said:

What Adam said.

I like remender.. but Brubaker is much better as an X-Men story....image fact that it spun into an epic space opera with the war of kings like that only made it better

I like the concept behind Final Horsemen more than Vulcan......which was a retcon. I agree that Vulcan had to great stories but UXF also spun off with Apocalypse Twins. Apocalypse>Vulcan. Though I am kinda biased but the concepts behind Apocalpyse seemed more refreshing and unique IMO.

Honestly, Final Horsemen make as much sense as does Neanderthal Apocalypse... And when these Horsemen can be taken out by street levelers the hype isn't worth a damn. I can't name a single good development of the Apocalypse mythos Remender introduced, honestly. Genocide was cool, yeah. But we all know where he was first introduced.

I don't think all characters are street levelers except for Logan or Deadpool but these characters have great HF(though it's kind of controversial but still).

But I agree with those Final Horsemen having not good development but isnt not the same thing for Vulcan after War of Kings? Or isn't it like 90% of villains of comics are get ignored someway or another.

As for Remender... I mean he lacked to spun his ideas unlike Brubaker and that is really awesome. But it wasn't groundbreaking with respect to what happened to Sh'ir and X-Men b4 IMO.

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adamTRMM

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@vishop_:

It isn't about being groundbreaking to me as much as about having a well rounded story telling. I don't like Remender's because it raises so many "wtf" questions without answering. Not a single mission of this Xforce was actually and Xforce mission. So why does Xforce go into battles that are way over their heads without Xmen help? KY's Xforce has an answer to that question. Remender's doesn't. And like I said before, his developments were all shaky at best. Apocalypse as a kind of title, Death Seeds, total bastardization of AoA. Yeah, let's say I see little redeemable qualities in this run lol

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#9  Edited By Vishop_

@adamtrmm said:

@vishop_:

It isn't about being groundbreaking to me as much as about having a well rounded story telling. I don't like Remender's because it raises so many "wtf" questions without answering. Not a single mission of this Xforce was actually and Xforce mission. So why does Xforce go into battles that are way over their heads without Xmen help? KY's Xforce has an answer to that question. Remender's doesn't. And like I said before, his developments were all shaky at best. Apocalypse as a kind of title, Death Seeds, total bastardization of AoA. Yeah, let's say I see little redeemable qualities in this run lol

I am not sure what are the controversies or "wtf questions" I haven't taken this seriously because it was something fresh to read for me, therefore, I never cared about it. Same thing could be said Brubaker especially the retcon. I mean "wtf was that ?" lol.

Don't get me wrong though I loved DnA and Brubaker's respective minis and ongoings a lot but let's face it what he did was intentionally wrong.

Apocalpyse mythos seemed to have so much potential to explore ideas but I haven't seen any new writer cared to explore it as much as Remender, therefore, I will give him the props to introduce it on the first place.

As for UXF' basic mode of operating I was actually satisfied with the basis of how Remender upshot of this team in both ways. Good and Bad.

UXF was high stakes proactive squad that will terminate any potential big threats like Apocalpyse. That's similar to any previous X-Force teams and especially the first one right?

X-Force was about doing their jobs by any ruthless means but it also has negative consequences that were later explored when UXF went to the future. Maybe it has flaws in time travel but it has pretty interesting AU to explore because it wasn't like Heroes Loss and Villains win situation(which happens in the majority of X-Men time travel melodrama) but it was kinda complex about the idea of UXF itself.

I agree about what you said about AoA but did Remender wrote that book?

EDIT: I edited some of my comments. Sorry if I have caused you any problem.

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adamTRMM

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@vishop_:

The "wtf" questions are "why was this mission even covert"? "Why is there a damn Neanderthal/Eternal/Human Apocalypses"? "why the **** does Magneto need ANYONE kill for him when he's bloodthirsty killer himself and already killed untold amount of Nazis?!" "why is Shadowking part of the mutant Brotherhood when he isn't even a mutant?" "and how the heck would Mystique work with the MF that is ultimately responsible for Destiny's death?" and so on.

What you mean by "intentionally wrong"?

I ABSOLUTELY agree on the potential of the Apocalypse mythos, it's just that I can't say anything positive about Remender's contributions to it, frankly.

Something was off with the storytelling and developments, to me. Remender does have the story structure and scope, I'll give him that. He also knows how to work with the artists. Which is an often overlooked quality in the medium. It worked for his benefit at times.

I thought the themes of murderous Xforce were far more competently handled by K/Y. Nothing Remender offered was new or worthy of milking on that too. It annoys me that he's credited for being the pioneer of that concept when he's just a follower! It's Brubaker's and K/Y's child and should be acknowledged as such too.

He laid all of the foundations and it was written off of his concepts.

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Vishop_

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#11  Edited By Vishop_

@adamtrmm:

The "wtf" questions are "why was this mission even covert"? "Why is there a damn Neanderthal/Eternal/Human Apocalypses"? "why the **** does Magneto need ANYONE kill for him when he's bloodthirsty killer himself and already killed untold amount of Nazis?!" "why is Shadowking part of the mutant Brotherhood when he isn't even a mutant?" "and how the heck would Mystique work with the MF that is ultimately responsible for Destiny's death?" and so on.

Because Cyclops and the other X-Men didn't want the X-Force's extremism and learn the fact they were killing evil children?

If you are asking about the final horsemen then they are not humans and they were born mutants.

That was Erik's old friend and he might have betrayed and become a Nazi.

I didn't know Shadowking was not mutant but apparently Wikis are considering him a mutant villain.

Mystique was written like worse written x-character without a particular status quo during those times, therefore, it's potato and patato for me wherever she was written during those times.

What you mean by "intentionally wrong"?

DG

I ABSOLUTELY agree on the potential of the Apocalypse mythos, it's just that I can't say anything positive about Remender's contributions to it, frankly.

Despite having flaws Remender created some versatile and good read in general. Most writers tend to not take risks.

Something was off with the storytelling and developments, to me. Remender does have the story structure and scope, I'll give him that. He also knows how to work with the artists. Which is an often overlooked quality in the medium. It worked for his benefit at times.

I thought the themes of murderous Xforce were far more competently handled by K/Y. Nothing Remender offered was new or worthy of milking on that too. It annoys me that he's credited for being the pioneer of that concept when he's just a follower! It's Brubaker's and K/Y's child and should be acknowledged as such too.

He laid all of the foundations and it was written off of his concepts.

Yost didn't handle the consequences for the kill squad. It part of the of no killing perception if you call. Like I said b4 killing can go both ways. Remender adapted both whereas X-Force didn't.

The majority of Yost's X-Force team formed due to their own revenge agenda whereas UXF wasn't like that. They wanted to kill Apocalpyse because he will bring dystopia one way or another.

That said, I half agree with what you said about Kyle/Yost. There were a lot of things that their X-Force introduced in the first place. But they lack characterization and it's not only about the characters but the whole plot itself.

Actually Kyle/Yost's run is the most badass run in X-Men's history for me.

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HAWK2916

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@adamtrmm: I think KYost Xforce was amazing and brought in a fresh look to the concept. Remender followed up on it well. He himself even gives the credit to Kyle and Yost for setting things up for hin to do the Archangel-Apocalypse stuff. There are holes in everyone's storytelling, hell even Claremont leaves questions or wtf moments. One thing about Remender is he also had very heavy interference from editorial and their bs mandates. Even when it came to the Final Horsemen which I thought was somewhat interesting but needed a little more development as well, Remender had planned nit to introduce new characters but use established ones and flesh out other seeds besides just death and life but also war, famine and pestilence. In fact he had planned to use Magneto and Namor and show them being infected a long time ago but Axel stuck his nose in and wanted new characters. Even with a character who I hate in Fantomex the original goal was to establish him as a Sentinel and tell an origin story but that was shifted over to the Secret Avengers so it never got told. Therefore much of his motivations and development got lost. Even the Apocalypse Twins thing was supposed to be in Uncanny Xforce as the closing arc but because it was such a big story it was moved over to Uncanny Avengers

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@vishop_ said:

Because Cyclops and the other X-Men didn't want the X-Force's extremism and learn the fact they were killing evil children?

If you are asking about the final horsemen then they are not humans and they were born mutants.

That was Erik's old friend and he might have betrayed and become a Nazi.

I didn't know Shadowking was not mutant but apparently Wikis are considering him a mutant villain.

Mystique was written like worse written x-character without a particular status quo during those times, therefore, it's potato and patato for me wherever she was written during those times.

You miss the point. The missions THIS Xforce carried out DIDN'T have to be XFORCE. Apocalypse is a global level threat, nothing suggests covert here. And the entire narrative spun out of the just one mission gone wrong (which again didn't even have to be the Xforce mission to begin with!). It simply kept escalating ad absurdum. They weren't effective, they were messed up. Dysfunctional, inadequately so. Cyclops shut them off beforehand, and then those narratives got completely separated. Nothing from what happened in UXF was ever addressed from Cyke's perspective.

No. The Apocalypses I was talking about were shown in that Hall of Apocalypses. A completely uncalled development...

Nah. That was a Nazi that is supposedly personally tormented Erik in the camp. Bunn had a followup on it in his Magneto run supposedly from Remender's notes.

Nah. Shadowking's origin is still a mystery, but he's a psychic entity that has zero interest in the mutant agenda.

lol fair enoigh.

DG

I'm not sure what was intentional wrong here?

Despite having flaws Remender created some versatile and good read in general. Most writers tend to not take risks.

I agree he had at least tried to do stuff. I just disagreed with a lot of what he did...


Yost didn't handle the consequences for the kill squad. It part of the of no killing perception if you call. Like I said b4 killing can go both ways. Remender adapted both whereas X-Force didn't.

The majority of Yost's X-Force team formed due to their own revenge agenda whereas UXF wasn't like that. They wanted to kill Apocalpyse because he will bring dystopia one way or another.

That said, I half agree with what you said about Kyle/Yost. There were a lot of things that their X-Force introduced in the first place. But they lack characterization and it's not only about the characters but the whole plot itself.

Actually Kyle/Yost's run is the most badass run in X-Men's history for me.

They did. Warpath had an existential crisis over it. Which admittedly was a strange characterization considering how savage he was when Brubaker reintroduced him. Still, Domino had a commentary on it. They called Cyke out for what it did to Laura and he realized that in the end. Elixir had his own demons to face through it. Rahne got the worst outcome possible, but the destiny brought her love at least. There were repercussions all over it. It just K/Y didn't try to be preachy about their love for slasher story, unlike Remender that enjoys graphic violence but then apparently has to condemn it in story to feel better about it lolz

As I said, Apocalypse is way above their paygrade AND doesn't fit Xforce MO in general! It's an Xmen mission, not Xforce.

Oh no, K/Y voices are AMAZING. Read their arguing in Angel's mansions. Every single voice is distinct, vibrant and organic. Be it Cyclops, Wolverine, X23, Elixir, Domino or Angel. Their conversation are almost slice-of-life level of natural. This a tremendous feat on their part. I'm sorry, but Remender doesn't come near to me.

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#14  Edited By adamTRMM

@hawk2916 said:

I think KYost Xforce was amazing and brought in a fresh look to the concept. Remender followed up on it well. He himself even gives the credit to Kyle and Yost for setting things up for hin to do the Archangel-Apocalypse stuff. There are holes in everyone's storytelling, hell even Claremont leaves questions or wtf moments. One thing about Remender is he also had very heavy interference from editorial and their bs mandates. Even when it came to the Final Horsemen which I thought was somewhat interesting but needed a little more development as well, Remender had planned nit to introduce new characters but use established ones and flesh out other seeds besides just death and life but also war, famine and pestilence. In fact he had planned to use Magneto and Namor and show them being infected a long time ago but Axel stuck his nose in and wanted new characters. Even with a character who I hate in Fantomex the original goal was to establish him as a Sentinel and tell an origin story but that was shifted over to the Secret Avengers so it never got told. Therefore much of his motivations and development got lost. Even the Apocalypse Twins thing was supposed to be in Uncanny Xforce as the closing arc but because it was such a big story it was moved over to Uncanny Avengers

There were rumors that K/Y intended to kill many more characters in Second Coming and a major shakeup was planned after with Xforce welcoming Havok and Polaris. This is the only rumor I was familiar with. There's more stuff to read about? Because I always love to read about these scrapped ideas.

Anyway, it's not just about the stuff that had typical medium wide problems. There are creative decisions I clearly disagree with. Btw, I always accredit you for giving me the veteran PTSD analogy to Archangel's snapping arc. It brings a lot of dimension to it. But it isn't the only thing that was going. It annoyed me that Remender seemed to push "kill=bad!!!" narrative while making everything as graphic and edgy as possible. Made it look super hypocritical and forced. It was tiresome to see how dysfunctional and ineffective this incarnation was compared to the pros that were K/Y's guys.

About how it transitioned to other books of his, that actually shows organized he is. I'll give him that. Archangel Twins, Apoc and Kang are really interesting clash. Naturally made me think another amazing concept for Avengers/Xmen crossover could involve Ultron and Sentinels...

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Vishop_

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#15  Edited By Vishop_

@adamtrmm: My browser has just snapped out of memory(RAM) therefore I am too lazy to write all of this again lol. I am really sorry for my futility(in a way I guess) but I am gonna post about which hasn't been much talked about yet.

I'm not sure what was intentional wrong here?

I was talking about Deadly Genesis and how it ruined the main philosophy behind Giant-Size X-Men and it's mythos. It was purely "wrong" intentional compared to all the inconsistencies of the continuity of X-Men.

DG may have lead to positive consequences in terms of storytelling but it doesn't balance it against what has been done by any means.

I agree with most of the points that u have said btw (though there still things that I am not sure I cant agree with but still). Honestly when I debate a lot of things get heated up and I have to say I respect/admire a lot of x-things that u prefer (like Keno from CBR lol) but more on that later.

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HAWK2916

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#16  Edited By HAWK2916

@adamtrmm: I'll have to find that interview with Remender. He's talking about his ideas and how Axel would jump in.

But i do get the feeling of there being holes in his story. And it did feel like the mutant version of the gang who couldnt shoot straight. To me it just showed how ineffective and out of his element Wolverine was as a leader but overall Remender wanted to tell a parable of how war begets war and that the kill squad had become just as bad as their enemies. It didnt help that several ideas and stories got hijacked for other books loke his ideas for Tabula Rasa and of course Namor and Magneto as sleeper agent Horsemen would have been golden. Males me wonder who he wanted for the other two including who would have been pregnant with the Apocalypse twins. My guess is maybe this would have been a return for Maddie Pryor as a Horseman or just to f with Wolverine maybe Mariko or Dakens mother.

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Invain

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I thought Brubaker had one of the best runs from the 2000's. He easily has some of the best scifi stories for X-men.

Remender had a couple of good storylines, but generally a lot of his ideas leave me thinking "this is stupid."

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adamTRMM

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@vishop_ said:

My browser has just snapped out of memory(RAM) therefore I am too lazy to write all of this again lol. I am really sorry for my futility(in a way I guess) but I am gonna post about which hasn't been much talked about yet.

I'm not sure what was intentional wrong here?

I was talking about Deadly Genesis and how it ruined the main philosophy behind Giant-Size X-Men and it's mythos. It was purely "wrong" intentional compared to all the inconsistencies of the continuity of X-Men.

DG may have lead to positive consequences in terms of storytelling but it doesn't balance it against what has been done by any means.

I agree with most of the points that u have said btw (though there still things that I am not sure I cant agree with but still). Honestly when I debate a lot of things get heated up and I have to say I respect/admire a lot of x-things that u prefer (like Keno from CBR lol) but more on that later.

Well that sucks.

But it wasn't as bonkers as Moira retcon for example. And I personally enjoyed revelations of Xavier's hypocrisy in that time. Making him a more "reflective" characters in that.

Well thanks, and yeah, an acquired taste like that of mine is something worth following ;)) I'm just kidding. Or am I?...............

@hawk2916 said:

I'll have to find that interview with Remender. He's talking about his ideas and how Axel would jump in.

But i do get the feeling of there being holes in his story. And it did feel like the mutant version of the gang who couldnt shoot straight. To me it just showed how ineffective and out of his element Wolverine was as a leader but overall Remender wanted to tell a parable of how war begets war and that the kill squad had become just as bad as their enemies. It didnt help that several ideas and stories got hijacked for other books loke his ideas for Tabula Rasa and of course Namor and Magneto as sleeper agent Horsemen would have been golden. Males me wonder who he wanted for the other two including who would have been pregnant with the Apocalypse twins. My guess is maybe this would have been a return for Maddie Pryor as a Horseman or just to f with Wolverine maybe Mariko or Dakens mother.

Yeah, share it with me if you find it pls.

I had a problem with that vision because pretending killing scum doesn't solve things is pretensions and that those who commit it lose touch is against my personal beliefs. I've served, and I was ready to do what's necessary. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't care where I'm pointing my AR. And after 3 years, my moral compass wasn't twisted, even though I've matured as a person and started to see it with a different outlook, I still recognized the importance of duty. Again, in the same military perspective, having Archangel as a snapped PTSD vet is also reflective and organic, but I can't say the same about everything else. Now besides the service metaphors, in terms of creative decisions I already listed the things I personally didn't really like. I'm not sure how I feel about the sleeper Horsemen stuff. Magneto's and Namor's past are already extremely rich and retconned many times, such a drastic meddling would be too noticeable.

I always felt like Gillen using Tabula Rasa was in full agreement, but it was totally the worst part of his UXM run so he shouldn't have if you ask me.

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Vishop_

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#19  Edited By Vishop_

@adamtrmm:

Well thanks, and yeah, an acquired taste like that of mine is something worth following ;)) I'm just kidding. Or am I?...............

Heh, It's just that most people out there(general consensus) don't have a certain plausible perspective/taste towards fiction and things around us. I am not sure I have either but I try.

Well that sucks.

But it wasn't as bonkers as Moira retcon for example. And I personally enjoyed revelations of Xavier's hypocrisy in that time. Making him a more "reflective" characters in that.

Honestly never really thought Moira ever really had such significance on X-Men. As for Deadly Genesis, when you realize the fact Charles's first choice was actually a bunch of new/young mutants and not international x-characters from Logan to Storm. I thought it was kinda atrocious or cheap towards characters' history and all those new mutants that joined him then thereafter.

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adamTRMM

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#20  Edited By adamTRMM

@vishop_:

Heh, It's just that most people out there(general consensus) don't have a certain plausible perspective/taste towards fiction and things around us. I am not sure I have either but I try.

Just like what you like, I know I do lol

Honestly never really thought Moira ever really had such significance on X-Men. As for Deadly Genesis, when you realize the fact Charles's first choice was actually a bunch of new/young mutants and not international x-characters from Logan to Storm. I thought it was kinda atrocious or cheap towards characters' history and all those new mutants that joined him then thereafter.

Hickman said he really appreciated Carey's run and he was around when Brubaker wrote X-men, which all had those little elements involving Moira and I theorize that it is what inspired him (Deadly Genesis and Age of X, being specific).

About Charles, he sent teens to fight Magneto and the Brotherhood far away in the very beginning of the journey. And it worked then. In his completely loosened from reality idealism it convinced him and he actually started to believe that mutants are wonders that can accomplish anything and this was no different. It's just that reality bites back so he had to be reminded that idealism has a cost.

I think it works perfectly as a concept. Execution might be better, but the idea was fine.

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Vishop_

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#21  Edited By Vishop_

@adamtrmm:

Hickman said he really appreciated Carey's run and he was around when Brubaker wrote X-men, which all had those little elements involving Moira and I theorize that it is what inspired him (Deadly Genesis and Age of X, being specific).

Haven't read Carey's run, therefore, I cant really much comment on that but yeah I have heard about his appreciation towards Carey's run in some interview and it seems to be reflecting in his recent issues like Children of the Vault but that's the only thing I can say about Carey's run for now.

DG also included Vulcan but does it seemed like the same old Brubaker Vulcan to you in Hic-X-Men? lol

About Charles, he sent teens to fight Magneto and the Brotherhood far away in the very beginning of the journey. And it worked then. In his completely loosened from reality idealism it convinced him and he actually started to believe that mutants are wonders that can accomplish anything and this was no different. It's just that reality bites back so he had to be reminded that idealism has a cost.

I think it works perfectly as a concept. Execution might be better, but the idea was fine.

I think the idea of X-Men became a big thing when GSX and Claremont happen. Never really thought that those first appearances of Charles sending a bunch of young x-men is more than pop culture for readers during those times. As for Charles, I believe when he made New Mutants during 80s, he was pretty overprotective of them to not turning them out as X-Men because he was kinda depressed about what happened to X-Men and Moira came along and convinced him. I think that the same character attribute should have been applied to Dead Genesis but Brubaker did the opposite.

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Vishop_

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@adamtrmm: Btw sending some new mutants against someone he knows is far more different than sending them to Krakoa where his trained X-Men are already trapped. Apples and Oranges.

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HAWK2916

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#23  Edited By HAWK2916

@adamtrmm: Im with you on the service and all. I happen to be one who believes in capital punishment and if it were up to me particularly in this country I believe that monsters are only afraid of bigger monsters and if thats what I'd have to be then so be it. I would actually rest better at night.

I thought the PTSD angle and the reemergence of tge Apocalypse influence was good. Aside from even PTSD or Trauma, i thought it even highlighted addiction and how its a never ending struggle and at tge worst times or in times of stress it can rear its ugly head.

Tabula Rasa was wasted and should have been explored in Xforce.

The Namor and Magneto sleeper Horsemen thing sits even better with me. It could have been used to rewrite some of the inconsistencies over time but it could have added even more dimension to already complex characters

I think the interview was Remembering Remenders Uncanny Xforce parts 1 and 2

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@vishop_ said:

@adamtrmm:


I think the idea of X-Men became a big thing when GSX and Claremont happen. Never really thought that those first appearances of Charles sending a bunch of young x-men is more than pop culture for readers during those times. As for Charles, I believe when he made New Mutants during 80s, he was pretty overprotective of them to not turning them out as X-Men because he was kinda depressed about what happened to X-Men and Moira came along and convinced him. I think that the same character attribute should have been applied to Dead Genesis but Brubaker did the opposite.

When Xavier formed the New Mutants he was under the control of Brood inside of him. He didn't want to recruit any more mutants because he actually thought the X-men were dead at the time (they were lost in space). The Brood host had Xavier recruit them so he could turn them into Brood, however, the Brood died, Xavier was cloned, and decided to keep the New Mutants around.

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Vishop_

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@vishop_ said:

@adamtrmm:


I think the idea of X-Men became a big thing when GSX and Claremont happen. Never really thought that those first appearances of Charles sending a bunch of young x-men is more than pop culture for readers during those times. As for Charles, I believe when he made New Mutants during 80s, he was pretty overprotective of them to not turning them out as X-Men because he was kinda depressed about what happened to X-Men and Moira came along and convinced him. I think that the same character attribute should have been applied to Dead Genesis but Brubaker did the opposite.

When Xavier formed the New Mutants he was under the control of Brood inside of him. He didn't want to recruit any more mutants because he actually thought the X-men were dead at the time (they were lost in space). The Brood host had Xavier recruit them so he could turn them into Brood, however, the Brood died, Xavier was cloned, and decided to keep the New Mutants around.

Yeah, part of Charles's decision of forming the new mutants was influenced by Brood and it's host queen. But honestly, the whole idea of Charles being overprotective was particularly due to the X-Men and what happened to them.

Either way, your point about not recruiting the new mutants actually shows that he was willing to not take risks for new mutants and to make them another generation of x-men.

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#26  Edited By adamTRMM

@hawk2916:

Im with you on the service and all. I happen to be one who believes in capital punishment and if it were up to me particularly in this country I believe that monsters are only afraid of bigger monsters and if thats what I'd have to be then so be it. I would actually rest better at night.

I thought the PTSD angle and the reemergence of tge Apocalypse influence was good. Aside from even PTSD or Trauma, i thought it even highlighted addiction and how its a never ending struggle and at tge worst times or in times of stress it can rear its ugly head.

I'm totally not against the exploration of the themes, I'm just not fond of the way it was done here. Let's the K/Y analogy. In theirs it was done with much more care and integrity. Did it go south at times? Yeah. Did it demoralize some? Yeah. But in the end it was needed and it was shown why. None of this was shown here. Just a meaningless circle of violence for the sake of it.

The Namor and Magneto sleeper Horsemen thing sits even better with me. It could have been used to rewrite some of the inconsistencies over time but it could have added even more dimension to already complex characters

I would actually prefer the Nosferatu angle from Claremont's Excalibur. That's where Hickman totally dropped the ball and I found Sinister and Mags/Xavier interaction to be borderline laughable in Hocus Pocus.

The First Horsemen do seem to be interesting, though.

@vishop_:

DG also included Vulcan but does it seemed like the same old Brubaker Vulcan to you in Hic-X-Men? lol

Nah, he seemed infantile lol

I think the idea of X-Men became a big thing when GSX and Claremont happen. Never really thought that those first appearances of Charles sending a bunch of young x-men is more than pop culture for readers during those times. As for Charles, I believe when he made New Mutants during 80s, he was pretty overprotective of them to not turning them out as X-Men because he was kinda depressed about what happened to X-Men and Moira came along and convinced him. I think that the same character attribute should have been applied to Dead Genesis but Brubaker did the opposite.

It is still as valid in universe. He sent teens to fight Mags' Brotherhood. There's no dancing around it when you breaking it down. And DG was before NM. So, if anything that little secret of his could be attributed to what you call his latent "overprotectiveness".

Btw sending some new mutants against someone he knows is far more different than sending them to Krakoa where his trained X-Men are already trapped. Apples and Oranges.

Apples and oranges doesn't fit here considering it could be tracked down into his MO and it fit him almost perfectly.

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@adamtrmm:

It is still as valid in universe. He sent teens to fight Mags' Brotherhood. There's no dancing around it when you breaking it down. And DG was before NM. So, if anything that little secret of his could be attributed to what you call his latent "overprotectiveness".

The idea of X-Men was new and fresh. Its X-Men's first year just like Batman's first year both of these concepts. Therefore the concept of it got more matured with the course of time therefore I believe it was too superficial and premature for someone as Charles Xavier, who is a telepath.

Apples and oranges doesn't fit here considering it could be tracked down into his MO and it fit him almost perfectly.

I think both of these were two very different situations considering the fact someone wouldn't be dumb to risk the life of a bunch of children where a bunch of his trained x-men has risked their lives and failed.

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@vishop_ said:

I think both of these were two very different situations considering the fact someone wouldn't be dumb to risk the life of a bunch of children where a bunch of his trained x-men has risked their lives and failed.

Bruh... this is like Xmen 101 :)))

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@adamtrmm: Honestly as an X-fan, in general, I find it typically underwhelming to see a bunch of children b4 the x-men we know but I guess that doesn't bother you as an X-fan.

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I like Rememder’s stuff better on average.

But I liked Brubaker’s run a lot more.

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#31  Edited By Vishop_

@ashetdust said:

I like Rememder’s stuff better on average.

But I liked Brubaker’s run a lot more.

Just asking out of curiosity what Brubaker did during Deadly Genesis was a good thing?