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Posted by inferiorego (25734 posts) - - Show Bio

This season, onThe Flash, a new speedster named Zoom has been sending super-powered beings from one parallel Earth to another to try and kill the Flash. On top of that, Zoom has done his fair share of killing people as this season has progressed. The Flash team wouldn't be where they are right now without the help of Jay Garrick, who comes from the same world as Zoom.

Warning: Spoilers ahead for the episode of The Flash titled "King Shark."

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At the end of the "Escape from Earth-2" episode of the show, Zoom reached through the portal between worlds and dragged Garrick back to Jay's homeworld. This was done with Zoom phasing his arm through Jay's chest, so there's a really good chance Jay is dead. Team Flash is distraught and there's nothing they can do. Zoom is gone and their friend is probably dead.

During the closing sequence of "King Shark," Zoom is carrying the seemingly dead body of Jay Garrick through his personal prison. Zoom drops Jay onto the ground, and then Zoom removes his mask.

No Caption Provided

The only thing he says is "well, this is a complication." Zoom is Jay Garrick? This could mean a plethora of things. We've already seen time travel exists on this show and two people, from different timelines, can be in the same place, at the same time. However, we also know there are more than two Earths, so this Jay Garrick could be from another Earth, even the one Barry Allen and Team Flash are on.

There's been one indication that Jay is Zoom, from the man in the metal mask in Zoom's prison. He gave Flash a message that was decoded as "Jay." However, just because Jay was revealed as Zoom, that doesn't mean fans have any more answers. If anything, this just opens up for more questions and theories.

The Flash airs on Tuesdays at 8 PM on The CW.

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#1 Posted by iSoupreme (428 posts) - - Show Bio

This is too much! So. Who's the dude in the metal mask? My guess is either Jay Garrick, or if we really want to spice things up and be like **** it!, then it could be Earth-2's Eobard Thawne :O

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#2 Posted by Sachmoo (2500 posts) - - Show Bio

FYI, Andrew Kreisberg (the producer) Has gone on record to say Zoom is Hunter Zolomon.

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#3 Posted by MasterOfEvil (1671 posts) - - Show Bio

The moment the mentioned Hunter Zolomon on Earth 1, I kinda suspected this.

But still... wtf, Jay???

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#4 Posted by Black_Arrow (10286 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by AmazingSpiderman15 (1929 posts) - - Show Bio

@sachmoo said:

FYI, Andrew Kreisberg (the producer) Has gone on record to say Zoom is Hunter Zolomon.

link?

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#6 Edited by nightwingdg143 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

Still can't wait till we get some more time in Earth 2.

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#7 Posted by StarBrand1 (661 posts) - - Show Bio

my brain, rip

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#8 Posted by Sachmoo (2500 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by Dogofwarorion (39 posts) - - Show Bio

That was predictable from the moment Jay told Caitlin his double from earth-1 was called Hunter Zolomon

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#10 Posted by Black_Arrow (10286 posts) - - Show Bio

@sachmoo: Thanks.

That doesn't make a lot of sense, we know that the Jay that was on Team Flash, is not Zoom. He dumped his body in front of him. He was Zoom's enemy and that is why he died (unless it was a mistake). He lied to Team Flash because he knew who he was. Maybe both of them are really Hunter Zolomon, one from E1 and the other from E2, and the guy on the mask is the real Jay Garrick.

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#11 Posted by NightFang3 (12364 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by bigsoto74 (332 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish the guy in the Metal mask is Ronnie, but I think it is another Jay.

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#13 Edited by Sachmoo (2500 posts) - - Show Bio

@nightfang3 said:

@sachmoo said:

That makes no sense what so ever.

As i said in the Episode review, the whole thing is wildly confusing. I think there is something very telling when he said, "well, this is a complication" though. Why would it be a complication that he killed Jay Garrick? Did he need his speed? Did he need Jay to create Velocity 9?

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#14 Posted by NightFang3 (12364 posts) - - Show Bio

@sachmoo said:
@nightfang3 said:

@sachmoo said:

That makes no sense what so ever.

As i said in the Episode review, the whole thing is wildly confusing. I think there is something very telling when he said, "well, this is a complication" though. Why would it be a complication that he killed Jay Garrick? Did he need his speed? Did he need Jay to create Velocity 9?

Is Jay Garrick even dead? And I thought Zoom was talking about the portals being closed, but if Zoom is a doppelganger of Jay and Hunter Zolomon than couldn't he just make a new portal if he dimension travels?

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#15 Posted by Black_Arrow (10286 posts) - - Show Bio

@sachmoo said:
@nightfang3 said:

@sachmoo said:

That makes no sense what so ever.

As i said in the Episode review, the whole thing is wildly confusing. I think there is something very telling when he said, "well, this is a complication" though. Why would it be a complication that he killed Jay Garrick? Did he need his speed? Did he need Jay to create Velocity 9?

Why would he kill him on Earth 1, if he had plans for him? Did Zoom just wanted to kill a random person? He could have killed Barry and ending his search for his speed. It would have made much more sense for Zoom to snatch Jay alive, If he was part of his plan. Besides Jay wasn't with Zoom, he knew that once he closed the breach, he would be safe from him.

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#16 Edited by CaptainOmnitron (63 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow: My theory? the Earth 2 we THINK we've been seeing is actually Earth 3. Think about it. Heroes from Earth 1 being villains there and villains being heroes. And keep in mind? Grant Morrison's JLA: Earth 2 was basically Earth 3. And Pre-Crisis Earth 3 was Evil Earth 2.

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#17 Edited by Black_Arrow (10286 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_arrow: My theory? the Earth 2 we THINK we've been seeing is actually Earth 3. Think about it. Heroes from Earth 1 being villains there and villains being heroes. And keep in mind? Grant Morrison's JLA: Earth 2 was basically Earth 3. And Pre-Crisis Earth 3 was Evil Earth 2.

Eventhrough there might be some exceptions to that theory (Barry, Iris and Joe), It might make sense because on Grant Morrison's Earth 2 they didn't have to be exactly the same persons but the heroes had all their evil analogues, maybe "Jay Garrick" is the evil analogue of Barry. It also adds up because It's a world dominated by the bad guys like in Earth 3.

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#18 Posted by Sachmoo (2500 posts) - - Show Bio
@sachmoo said:
@nightfang3 said:

@sachmoo said:

That makes no sense what so ever.

As i said in the Episode review, the whole thing is wildly confusing. I think there is something very telling when he said, "well, this is a complication" though. Why would it be a complication that he killed Jay Garrick? Did he need his speed? Did he need Jay to create Velocity 9?

Is Jay Garrick even dead? And I thought Zoom was talking about the portals being closed, but if Zoom is a doppelganger of Jay and Hunter Zolomon than couldn't he just make a new portal if he dimension travels?

Seems to me Jay is very much dead and he was looking at his dead body when he said it. My best guess, there are earth-1 Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon, AND Earth-2 Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon. Or one of them could be Rival . I don't know, this is confusing. Im gonna rewatch the episode where they find Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon, see if there is anything telling that we missed.

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#19 Posted by xsbrx (205 posts) - - Show Bio

What if:

Zoom = Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon, Flash Earth2 = Earth-2 Jay Garrick

Masked dude= Earth-1 Jay Garrick (hence why Snow didn't find him), and Earth-1 Zolomon...well we saw him in earlier episode?

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#20 Posted by RexWing (163 posts) - - Show Bio

It's hysterical to me that Zoom is this over the top, scary speaking, very animated typical villain. And I love that about him. He's actually quite menacing considering it is a CW show. BUT LOL it's the nerdy do-gooder Jay Garrick doppleganger under the mask. I understand Zolomon would be a completely different character but all I can picture is Teddy Sears under that suit overplaying/overacting the whole villain gig and looking completely ridiculous. I dunno, probably alot funnier in my head LOL

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#21 Posted by Mr. Messy Face (128 posts) - - Show Bio

My theory is the Jay Garrick we've been seeing is actually Edward Clariss and the dude in the metal mask is Jay Garrick and Zoom is Hunter Zolomon from Earth-1 but is from the future.

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#22 Posted by NightFang3 (12364 posts) - - Show Bio

@sachmoo said:
@nightfang3 said:
@sachmoo said:
@nightfang3 said:

@sachmoo said:

That makes no sense what so ever.

As i said in the Episode review, the whole thing is wildly confusing. I think there is something very telling when he said, "well, this is a complication" though. Why would it be a complication that he killed Jay Garrick? Did he need his speed? Did he need Jay to create Velocity 9?

Is Jay Garrick even dead? And I thought Zoom was talking about the portals being closed, but if Zoom is a doppelganger of Jay and Hunter Zolomon than couldn't he just make a new portal if he dimension travels?

Seems to me Jay is very much dead and he was looking at his dead body when he said it. My best guess, there are earth-1 Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon, AND Earth-2 Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon. Or one of them could be Rival . I don't know, this is confusing. Im gonna rewatch the episode where they find Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon, see if there is anything telling that we missed.

IDK. until they say Earth-2 Jay is dead i'm just gonna assume he's unconscious, I mean way even bring his dead body back to the lair? Hunter Zolomon is Jay's Earth-1 doppelganger, he even told Caitlin the reason she couldn't find he's Earth-1 doppelganger (Zolomon), was because he had a different name. So there can't be two of them on Earth-1 unless it's a doppelganger from another Earth.

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#23 Posted by modernww2fare (7187 posts) - - Show Bio

THIS is how you make a spoiler thread

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#24 Posted by iSoupreme (428 posts) - - Show Bio

When I first saw Escape Form Earth-2, I thought that maybe if Zoom was the Jay we knew then that maybe, just maybe, Zoom was fast enough to do a speed mirage without giving off lightning and putting himself in both places :O

Now Jay = Zoom and Flash Earth 2 = Jay and Jay vs Zoom and OW MY HEAD HURTS.

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#25 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36891 posts) - - Show Bio

@sachmoo: Thanks for the link. WTF though?

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#26 Edited by Sachmoo (2500 posts) - - Show Bio

@nightfang3 said:
@sachmoo said:
@nightfang3 said:
@sachmoo said:
@nightfang3 said:

@sachmoo said:

That makes no sense what so ever.

As i said in the Episode review, the whole thing is wildly confusing. I think there is something very telling when he said, "well, this is a complication" though. Why would it be a complication that he killed Jay Garrick? Did he need his speed? Did he need Jay to create Velocity 9?

Is Jay Garrick even dead? And I thought Zoom was talking about the portals being closed, but if Zoom is a doppelganger of Jay and Hunter Zolomon than couldn't he just make a new portal if he dimension travels?

Seems to me Jay is very much dead and he was looking at his dead body when he said it. My best guess, there are earth-1 Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon, AND Earth-2 Jay Garrick and Hunter Zolomon. Or one of them could be Rival . I don't know, this is confusing. Im gonna rewatch the episode where they find Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon, see if there is anything telling that we missed.

IDK. until they say Earth-2 Jay is dead i'm just gonna assume he's unconscious, I mean way even bring his dead body back to the lair? Hunter Zolomon is Jay's Earth-1 doppelganger, he even told Caitlin the reason she couldn't find he's Earth-1 doppelganger (Zolomon), was because he had a different name. So there can't be two of them on Earth-1 unless it's a doppelganger from another Earth.

Unless they were wrong? Cause where it stands right now, we are forced to believe 1 of two things: That guy on the bench is Zoom and he has been going back and fourth OR thus far we have seen 2 Hunter Zolomons (unless Kriesberg is flat out lying) and 1 Jay Garrick. Correct? Unless they get into body swapping like last season, or cloning which i hope they don't do.

Keep in mind, i think Kreisberg is intentionally 'Fing with us. They clearly lead us to believe the man in the mask was black at first, having very dark hands. Then the next time, we see the back of his head is white with blonde hair.

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#27 Posted by Stellar421 (875 posts) - - Show Bio

But still: who is the Dude in the Iron Mask?

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#28 Posted by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio

But still: who is the Dude in the Iron Mask?

...Max Mercury...?

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#29 Posted by Lunarstorm (298 posts) - - Show Bio

Guy in helmet is Jay Garrick from earth prime. zoom is jay garrick from earth 3 who killed Jay garrick from earth 2. Earth 1 jay garrick is hunter zolomon which is just some random guy just like barry allen from earth 2 is just some random guy.

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#30 Posted by chrisburgess99 (105 posts) - - Show Bio

The man in the iron mask is Max Mercury. He tapped out the name "Jay" before Zoom appeared at his base. They obviously know each other. Jay Garrick is not dead because that would be too predictable with the reveal from the episode's ending. Also if he were actually dead Zoom could have left the body of Jay on Earth 1 after his hand penetrated through his chest instead of bringing him back to his lair.

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#31 Posted by Oscars94 (3188 posts) - - Show Bio

So was that a murder/suicide?

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#32 Posted by warrior100 (2163 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by The_Valeyard (736 posts) - - Show Bio

The Iron Mask seems disturbed when Barry said that Jay is in Earth 1, then he is very disturbed when he see Team Flash Jay is dead, is there a possible connection out of this? What is he disturbed of when Jay is in Earth 1? Is something really wrong with Jay being there?

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#34 Edited by deadpool25mm (864 posts) - - Show Bio

Jay Garrick was from Earth one, Hunter Zolomon from Earth two, Zolomon forced Jay to work with him to get the drug they were working on at Starlabs, if not he'd kill someone close to him, thats how Jay found Zolomon in the park.
The guy in the Glass case is either Eddie or another Jay from a different earth.

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#35 Posted by Stellar421 (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@scouterv: we already have Jesse Quick and Wally West, so I guess Max makes sense.

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#36 Posted by Anjon (120 posts) - - Show Bio

My theory is that Zoom is likely the Jay Garrick/Hunter Zolomon from the universe Supergirl takes place in. We already know Supergirl's Earth can be reached from the breaches, and we already know that Barry is going to travel there because they're doing a crossover episode scheduled for late March. In fact, that episode will precede the season finale, so I'm fairly confident that Kara's world is important to the hunt for Zoom. I'm not confident enough to say whether the Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon is important to this or not. I think they just had that explanation of Earth-1 Jay being Hunter to setup a fanservice twist.

I am extremely confident enough to say that Zoom is a time traveler, either from the past or the future. If he's from the past (i.e. Golden Age Flash), then the "complication" is that he just murdered his future self my mistake. Not a problem large enough to cause a singularity, but he probably had big plans for that version of himself.

He could also be a future version of him while the man in the cage is the past one. That's the only reason I can think of for why he's in an phase-proof cage (Flash was in the same kind of cage, but Jesse was in a normal barred cell), and why he's in a metal mask. He's protected from any harm that could affect Zoom the way it did Reverse Flash, and hiding his face protects the timeline when he sees other characters. Would also explain why Zoom is so adamant that no one talks to him.

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#37 Posted by Timotheus316 (203 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought maybe he was a Barry from Earth 2. Guess I was wrong but I'm also about 6 episodes behind.

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#38 Posted by Wowlock (907 posts) - - Show Bio

They need to learn from X-men...Time travel is bad :P

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#39 Posted by StMichalofWilson (5631 posts) - - Show Bio

This is too much! So. Who's the dude in the metal mask? My guess is either Jay Garrick, or if we really want to spice things up and be like **** it!, then it could be Earth-2's Eobard Thawne :O

Oh that would be interesting!

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#40 Posted by sesquipedalophobe (5417 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm betting the man in the iron mask is the real Jay Garrick, but Eddie Thawne raised by the Garricks, much like the Hunter's explanation of his döppelganger. But if it's going the way of the comics after Barry died, then this means he and Barry are brothers.

Bromageddon.

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#41 Posted by King_Nomarch (2115 posts) - - Show Bio

I heard a theory that when Jay started using velocity 6 to make himself faster it may have effected him psychologically and he developed another personality that became Zoom which some how separated from him and becoming an independent being. If true, it could explain why Zoom is obsessed with becoming faster.

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#42 Posted by vasu12360 (348 posts) - - Show Bio

according to my theory jay and has a twin brother thus they have doppelgänger of earth 2 which makes it 4 people with same faces

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#43 Edited by The Impersonator (8487 posts) - - Show Bio

It's possible that Zoom could be from Earth-3, home of the Crime Syndicate. We're not talking about just Earth-1 and Earth-2. There are 52 breaches, 52 Earths. Either it's Earth-3 or Zoom could have traveled from one of 52 Earths.

It's also possible that this Jay Garrick/Zoom is from Earth-2's future. If this is true, then Zoom and Jay Garrick has to come from Earth-2. But Wells-2 had said this particle accelerator created Zoom, yet he didn't know his real identity, which also meant Zoom might have not come from the future.

So assuming that Zoom was created as a result of the particle accelerator, it's possible that Zoom has to be Hunter Zolomon, who sat on the park bench. But then assuming Hunter Zolomon is from Earth-1, that's not the case here. This Hunter Zolomon might have come from Earth-2, when the wormhole got breached on Earth-1.

Or better yet, Hunter Zolomon and Jay Garrick were both twins on Earth-2, living separately not knowing that there were brothers. When Hunter Zolomon had found out that Jay was his twin brother, becoming the Flash, Hunter wanted to be just like him, in a way similar that Eobard Thawne/Reverse-Flash wanted to be like Barry Allen/Flash. So, Hunter devised an experiment, the Velocity drug or he must have stolen it from Star Labs, injecting himself and then become Zoom. But then he had to become stronger. So, he attacked his twin brother, Jay Garrick, and stole his powers.

But what about the breach on Earth-1? How did Jay and Hunter play a part in this? Well, remember that Jay had told a lie to Team Flash that his powers got stolen by Zoom? What if he was telling the truth, only except that this Jay Garrick turned out to be a clone? How else is Jay can remember what happened to him? Because a clone can retain the memories of the original self, which was also why the Velocity didn't work on him entirely because the original Jay Garrick's Speed Force had been taken away from Zoom.

This could mean that Hunter Zolomon cloned his twin brother, and then send him to Earth-1 and work with Team Flash, whereas the real Jay Garrick is being held captive inside the cage.

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#44 Edited by WeAreTheFlash (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

I love this tv series so much with all of its twists and turns. Also the showrunner said the identity of the metal man would be satisfying.

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#45 Posted by ScouterV (7764 posts) - - Show Bio

@wowlock said:

They need to learn from X-men...Time travel is bad :P

To be fair, it did save their movie franchise.

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#46 Posted by victorcheenoanleu (330 posts) - - Show Bio

Or Zoom & Jay are the same person but Zoom is from the future where he found that the only way to cure whatever is killing him is stealing other speedsters speed, & I have zero theories on who the masked man is.

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#47 Posted by roaris87 (404 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what I think, the man in the iron mask is the real Jay Garrick that Zoom has captured. Zoom is Earth 2 Hunter Zolomon, while the Team Flash "Jay" is Earth 1 Hunter Zolomon. E1 Zoloman has no powers, which is why he lied that Zoom took them. When E1 Zoloman showed Caitlin his doppelganger, that was Zoom out of costume. For whatever reason, E1 Zoloman is working with Zoom. Zoom either had to kill E1 Zoloman because the plan went south or accidentally killed him since his remark at the end "this is a complication."

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#48 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16441 posts) - - Show Bio

Who´s the guy in the iron mask ??

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#49 Posted by Avatar_of_Green (3214 posts) - - Show Bio
@sbr999 said:

What if:

Zoom = Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon, Flash Earth2 = Earth-2 Jay Garrick

Masked dude= Earth-1 Jay Garrick (hence why Snow didn't find him), and Earth-1 Zolomon...well we saw him in earlier episode?

Then they're twins or something?

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#50 Edited by Avatar_of_Green (3214 posts) - - Show Bio

@anjon said:

My theory is that Zoom is likely the Jay Garrick/Hunter Zolomon from the universe Supergirl takes place in. We already know Supergirl's Earth can be reached from the breaches, and we already know that Barry is going to travel there because they're doing a crossover episode scheduled for late March. In fact, that episode will precede the season finale, so I'm fairly confident that Kara's world is important to the hunt for Zoom. I'm not confident enough to say whether the Earth-1 Hunter Zolomon is important to this or not. I think they just had that explanation of Earth-1 Jay being Hunter to setup a fanservice twist.

I am extremely confident enough to say that Zoom is a time traveler, either from the past or the future. If he's from the past (i.e. Golden Age Flash), then the "complication" is that he just murdered his future self my mistake. Not a problem large enough to cause a singularity, but he probably had big plans for that version of himself.

He could also be a future version of him while the man in the cage is the past one. That's the only reason I can think of for why he's in an phase-proof cage (Flash was in the same kind of cage, but Jesse was in a normal barred cell), and why he's in a metal mask. He's protected from any harm that could affect Zoom the way it did Reverse Flash, and hiding his face protects the timeline when he sees other characters. Would also explain why Zoom is so adamant that no one talks to him.

Good post.

I'm seeing Barry going to Earth-3 to use their portals to Earth-2 to confront Zoom. Zoom won't be resolved until the season finale and the crossover is really soon.

Time travel is really complicated. I would almost rather is be a 3 Earth or twins scenario. I'm thinking maybe Zoom is really Hunter Zoloman and stole speed from his Earth-1 counterpart. Weird how he can't do it to Barry on his own though.