OK, for my 5000th post on Comic Vine here's one to stir some discussion.
Since I started buying comics again just over 2 years ago, the one major DC character who has cried out for a really consistently decent run has been Superman. All the other major DC characters, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Batman have had really good runs, but great Superman comics have been inconsistently delivered. People have cited decent comics by Morrison, Pak, Snyder etc in the New 52 world, but nothing consistently good to compare with Johns' Green Lantern run, or Snyder's Batman, even Azzarello's WW run.
So why is it seemingly so hard to write a decent Superman comic these days?
Im purely speculating, but I think its because some of the writers feel that the character is dated or doesnt fit with modern morals so they are too busy trying to figure out how to fix a character that isnt broken to begin with. Some people think of what he can do instead of who he is and what he stands for so he just feels hollow because he is sometimes just a set of powers instead of a character. Thats just how I view it.
Because it's hard to make him interesting, IMO he needs more space adventures and I'd like to see more about his supporting cast (expecially Jimmy Olsen)
In short, Superman is one of the most complex characters of all time, and therefore difficult to write. People think there is something missing and try to add new stuff, when they just don't understand him.
In a world with All-Star Superman in it, there's no need for a Justice League. All-Star Superman makes all our favorite heroes look like zeroes which is bound to piss off a lot of people. In a nutshell, Superman sort of cannibalizes characters like Wonder Woman imo. Also they can't keep reiterating that Clark is oh-so human all the while portraying him with literally zero human qualities. With that said, right now DC doesn't have the talent, or the professional etiquette to properly handle a character like Superman.
In a world with All-Star Superman in it, there's no need for a Justice League. All-Star Superman makes all our favorite heroes look like zeroes which is bound to piss off a lot of people. In a nutshell, Superman sort of cannibalizes characters like Wonder Woman imo. Also they can't keep reiterating that Clark is oh-so human all the while portraying him with literally zero human qualities. With that said, right now DC doesn't have the talent, or the professional etiquette to properly handle a character like Superman.
Oh, rubbish. That’s completely backwards. It’s everyone else that keeps trying to cannibalise Superman because they can’t keep their greed in their pants. If they didn’t keep trying to clone all of Superman’s parts for WW there never would have been a fuss in the first place.
Your attempts to poison the well are both transparent and juvenile.
Batman existing doesn’t mean there’s no need for a Green Arrow. That’s not how it works.
Apparently being a genuinely nice person is a more unbelievable concept now than a man who can fly.
The current slate of writers imo don't get the character completely or they totally get him but are doing everything in their power to get away from that because they believe it doesn't work, when the absolute best superman stories feature in excess the things ignorant haters harp on as negatives of the character.
Most importantly though, characterisation being one problem, when all ur doing is focussing on making superman 'relatable' ideas for good stories kinda go out the window. Pak started strong but dwindled very quickly and now he puts out mediocre superman stuff too.
Editorial and constant crossovers is a big one. No clear direction is another reason. A lot of reasons actually.
@supermudz: Save it Supermudz, your greed knows no bounds, it puts mine to shame. Superman's like a dog in the manger and that is the truth of the matter. If you had your druthers, Superman would be as fast as the Flash, smarter than Batman, a master of all kryptonian martial arts, and the whitest of all, to top it off. Superman encroaches on everybody's turf, you want the whole pie for yourselves. We just want a little slice
This is my opinion, but DC has been betting on the wrong writers, lately.
Superman is one of the most iconic, most easy to relate characters in all comics. DC or otherwise.
It's the writers that been consistently failing to deliver. And why? Are they bad writers? By your own examples, they are not. But still they failed.
Superman comics needs writers that not only get Superman, but really want to write Superman comics. I've seen people bash the hell out of Lobdell but has I see it he brought more positive stuff to Superman comics than all the rest, in the "Superman" comic. Everyone that came after, Johns and Yang failed, failed and failed.
Superman needs more writers like Morrison, Pack and Lobdell. Not writers like Snyder that starts up good and half the way loses all sense of direction.
Consistency has indeed been the main problem in Superman comics and only consistent good writers, that really want to write Superman stories and not stories where Superman simply enters, will do the job right.
@supermudz: Save it Supermudz, your greed knows no bounds, it puts mine to shame. Superman's like a dog in the manger and that is the truth of the matter. If you had your druthers, Superman would be as fast as the Flash, smarter than Batman, a master of all kryptonian martial arts, and the whitest of all, to top it off. Superman encroaches on everybody's turf, you want the whole pie for yourselves. We just want a little slice
Like I said, you got it backwards. Superman had super-speed before Flash even existed, was always smarter than Batman, didn't even need to study martial arts because his skill was perfect, and all the rest. He was super before there were any other superheroes. Then suddenly come the Crisis, after decades, it all suddenly becomes an issue and they start pulling him apart for the sake of others. (And Superman / Flash races are the stuff of legend. They should never die. But Flash having way-cool speed abilities that Supes doesn't? Totally fine, because that is his stuff.)
The truth of the matter is that Superman owns this stuff - and it's a pretty basic and meager amount. He can't be greedy for stuff that already belongs to him. Superman doesn't encroach on anybody else's turf because the turf is his. Their turf is completely fine and available for them to inhabit - it's everybody else that keeps trying to jump onto his cape and then complaining when they fall off.
Your insecurities are blinding you to the fact that if your logic held true, then we'd also have to depower WW so she didn't give Aquaman and 9000 other heroes an inferiority complex. Though Aquaman level does make more sense to me.
@supermudz: Save it Supermudz, your greed knows no bounds, it puts mine to shame. Superman's like a dog in the manger and that is the truth of the matter. If you had your druthers, Superman would be as fast as the Flash, smarter than Batman, a master of all kryptonian martial arts, and the whitest of all, to top it off. Superman encroaches on everybody's turf, you want the whole pie for yourselves. We just want a little slice
Like I said, you got it backwards. Superman had super-speed before Flash even existed, was always smarter than Batman, didn't even need to study martial arts because his skill was perfect, and all the rest. He was super before there were any other superheroes. Then suddenly come the Crisis, after decades, it all suddenly becomes an issue and they start pulling him apart for the sake of others. (And Superman / Flash races are the stuff of legend. They should never die.)
The truth of the matter is that Superman owns this stuff - and it's a pretty basic and meager amount. He can't be greedy for stuff that already belongs to him. Superman doesn't encroach on anybody else's turf because the turf is his. Their turf is completely fine and available for them to inhabit - it's everybody else that keeps trying to jump onto his cape and then complaining when they fall off.
Your insecurities are blinding you to the fact that if your logic held true, then we'd also have to depower WW so she didn't give Aquaman and 9000 other heroes an inferiority complex. Though Aquaman level does make more sense to me.
I don't if you guys are joking around but I agree that Superman would be better in his own separate reality. With him sharing a universe together with others he has to have limitations to him so that other heroes are relevant. Now with separate universes he can be as powerful has what the fans want.
I also believe that WW should be at a lower level than Supes but that is for another thread.
@supermudz: Save it Supermudz, your greed knows no bounds, it puts mine to shame. Superman's like a dog in the manger and that is the truth of the matter. If you had your druthers, Superman would be as fast as the Flash, smarter than Batman, a master of all kryptonian martial arts, and the whitest of all, to top it off. Superman encroaches on everybody's turf, you want the whole pie for yourselves. We just want a little slice
Like I said, you got it backwards. Superman had super-speed before Flash even existed, was always smarter than Batman, didn't even need to study martial arts because his skill was perfect, and all the rest. He was super before there were any other superheroes. Then suddenly come the Crisis, after decades, it all suddenly becomes an issue and they start pulling him apart for the sake of others. (And Superman / Flash races are the stuff of legend. They should never die.)
The truth of the matter is that Superman owns this stuff - and it's a pretty basic and meager amount. He can't be greedy for stuff that already belongs to him. Superman doesn't encroach on anybody else's turf because the turf is his. Their turf is completely fine and available for them to inhabit - it's everybody else that keeps trying to jump onto his cape and then complaining when they fall off.
Your insecurities are blinding you to the fact that if your logic held true, then we'd also have to depower WW so she didn't give Aquaman and 9000 other heroes an inferiority complex. Though Aquaman level does make more sense to me.
I don't if you guys are joking around but I agree that Superman would be better in his own separate reality. With him sharing a universe together with others he has to have limitations to him so that other heroes are relevant. Now with separate universes he can be as powerful has what the fans want.
I also believe that WW should be at a lower level than Supes but that is for another thread.
I don't think there has to be a different universe for every character, (because if Superman is too strong, that's a slippery slope.)
Just handle the characters better.
To say that Superman is too strong to exist with everyone else is a copout, and then how long before Wonder Woman is too strong, or Shazam, or Batman is too smart?
As has been said. It's not hard if you really want to write a Superman story.
@supermudz: Save it Supermudz, your greed knows no bounds, it puts mine to shame. Superman's like a dog in the manger and that is the truth of the matter. If you had your druthers, Superman would be as fast as the Flash, smarter than Batman, a master of all kryptonian martial arts, and the whitest of all, to top it off. Superman encroaches on everybody's turf, you want the whole pie for yourselves. We just want a little slice
Like I said, you got it backwards. Superman had super-speed before Flash even existed, was always smarter than Batman, didn't even need to study martial arts because his skill was perfect, and all the rest. He was super before there were any other superheroes. Then suddenly come the Crisis, after decades, it all suddenly becomes an issue and they start pulling him apart for the sake of others. (And Superman / Flash races are the stuff of legend. They should never die.)
The truth of the matter is that Superman owns this stuff - and it's a pretty basic and meager amount. He can't be greedy for stuff that already belongs to him. Superman doesn't encroach on anybody else's turf because the turf is his. Their turf is completely fine and available for them to inhabit - it's everybody else that keeps trying to jump onto his cape and then complaining when they fall off.
Your insecurities are blinding you to the fact that if your logic held true, then we'd also have to depower WW so she didn't give Aquaman and 9000 other heroes an inferiority complex. Though Aquaman level does make more sense to me.
I don't if you guys are joking around but I agree that Superman would be better in his own separate reality. With him sharing a universe together with others he has to have limitations to him so that other heroes are relevant. Now with separate universes he can be as powerful has what the fans want.
I also believe that WW should be at a lower level than Supes but that is for another thread.
I don't think there has to be a different universe for every character, (because if Superman is too strong, that's a slippery slope.)
Just handle the characters better.
To say that Superman is too strong to exist with everyone else is a copout, and then how long before Wonder Woman is too strong, or Shazam, or Batman is too smart?
As has been said. It's not hard if you really want to write a Superman story.
True. Superman doesn't need to be on his own universe, nor is he stealing anything from anyone. He was and still is the archtype for basically every superhero and supervillain there is.
Superman just needs to have less crossovers and if there's to be crossovers let it be between Superboy and Supergirl. He needs more independent stories where he can be all that he really is, and not be put on chains just so the other characters can have some room.
True. Superman doesn't need to be on his own universe, nor is he stealing anything from anyone. He was and still is the archtype for basically every superhero and supervillain there is.
Superman just needs to have less crossovers and if there's to be crossovers let it be between Superboy and Supergirl. He needs more independent stories where he can be all that he really is, and not be put on chains just so the other characters can have some room.
I don't understand. Isn't what you've just described roughly the same as putting him in his own universe? A Universe only populated by characters derived from his brand such as Superboy and girl, Steel, and all the rest.
To be honest with you I'm not sure I'd mind if Superman were actually from another universe. I think that'd be a fun experiment. The cross overs between his world and the greater DCU could be explained by him universe jumping on ever once in a while.
He's an idea: maybe make it like Multiversity where Superman reads about the exciting adventures of the DCU in comic books. He eventually learns that this world of fiction and ink is just as real as his own. Maybe he befriends Batman cross universe, and they do an almost pen pal type of thing before meeting in person (lol it's like super hero cross universe Tinder). They say goodbye and now we've established the link. Maybe some people even think Batman is crazier than the first though now that he's talking about how he secretly saved the world with the 1940's comic hero Superman lol
Now that I really think about it this would be cool if Superman comics were some of the inspiration for some heroes in the DCU or maybe the DCU comic in Superman's world were artist inspired by the real life guy.
You'd be able able to do literally whatever Superman story you'd like without wringing your hands over continuity with the greater DCU (and even his own continuity to some extent if your feeling fluid with your thinking). You could do vertigo-like tales, all ages, small quite tales, and so on.
Lol I think I may have just convinced myself on a stand alone Superman universe! And I've also successfully gone off on a tangent lol
Superman needs more writers like Morrison, Pack and Lobdell. Not writers like Snyder that starts up good and half the way loses all sense of direction.
Consistency has indeed been the main problem in Superman comics and only consistent good writers, that really want to write Superman stories and not stories where Superman simply enters, will do the job right.
What about John Byrne's Superman? He wrote Superman stories well.
People write to challenge the powers instead of the personality.
Of course they do. What's the point of Superman having powers if he's not going to use them or show them off?
This is a common thing I've noticed when people suggest ideas for challenging Superman - put him in a situation where his powers don't matter! So instead, Superman just ends up like Reed Richards, except without even the stretching powers, mind-powering his way through everything.
Which then begs the question, if that's the best you can come up with for Superman, then what's the point of him having powers in the first damn place?
Apparently being a genuinely nice person is a more unbelievable concept now than a man who can fly.
The current slate of writers imo don't get the character completely or they totally get him but are doing everything in their power to get away from that because they believe it doesn't work, when the absolute best superman stories feature in excess the things ignorant haters harp on as negatives of the character.
Most importantly though, characterisation being one problem, when all ur doing is focussing on making superman 'relatable' ideas for good stories kinda go out the window. Pak started strong but dwindled very quickly and now he puts out mediocre superman stuff too.
Editorial and constant crossovers is a big one. No clear direction is another reason. A lot of reasons actually.
Morrison did an incredible run. Its probably the best New 52 run period IMO.
He isn't lacking talent, he's lacking good direction. With fantastic writers like Snyder, Johns, Pak, Soule and Tomasi under his belt why is nothing ever up to par as what we have seen before. Johns arc was good but not good like his usual stuff, Snyder ended his arc terribly, Pak started strong and is now mediocore, Tomasi has a good handle on Supes but his stories are meh, Soule did a good but short run that had a few missteps.
Apparently being a genuinely nice person is a more unbelievable concept now than a man who can fly.
The current slate of writers imo don't get the character completely or they totally get him but are doing everything in their power to get away from that because they believe it doesn't work, when the absolute best superman stories feature in excess the things ignorant haters harp on as negatives of the character.
Most importantly though, characterisation being one problem, when all ur doing is focussing on making superman 'relatable' ideas for good stories kinda go out the window. Pak started strong but dwindled very quickly and now he puts out mediocre superman stuff too.
Editorial and constant crossovers is a big one. No clear direction is another reason. A lot of reasons actually.
This generally sums up my views too so I'll second your on point post, this is pretty much the problems and criticisms that I have with how the New 52 has treated Superman. So much to blame and account for essentially, the Superman creative and editorial teams could do with a retcon I think.
Apparently being a genuinely nice person is a more unbelievable concept now than a man who can fly.
The current slate of writers imo don't get the character completely or they totally get him but are doing everything in their power to get away from that because they believe it doesn't work, when the absolute best superman stories feature in excess the things ignorant haters harp on as negatives of the character.
Most importantly though, characterisation being one problem, when all ur doing is focussing on making superman 'relatable' ideas for good stories kinda go out the window. Pak started strong but dwindled very quickly and now he puts out mediocre superman stuff too.
Editorial and constant crossovers is a big one. No clear direction is another reason. A lot of reasons actually.
Τhe Superman-line editorial is where DC throws its losers.
It's a shame that's the case because it really shouldn't be happening. Superman is the underlying foundation, the genesis and catalyst for DC Comics to exist as the company it is today. Yet the Superman line is comprised of editors who toe the company outlook of every comic matching the New 52's vision and reimagination of their characters, even if it's detrimental to what they were and represented before.
Τhe Superman-line editorial is where DC throws its losers.
It's a shame that's the case because it really shouldn't be happening. Superman is the underlying foundation, the genesis and catalyst for DC Comics to exist as the company it is today. Yet the Superman line is comprised of editors who toe the company outlook of every comic matching the New 52's vision and reimagination of their characters, even if it's detrimental to what they were and represented before.
They can't do much, well actually they do but someone will have to take the flack. Supposedly a senior member of the editorial has blackmail material that makes him keep his job. That's why they keep their job. Or at least that's what de Campi says.
Τhe Superman-line editorial is where DC throws its losers.
It's a shame that's the case because it really shouldn't be happening. Superman is the underlying foundation, the genesis and catalyst for DC Comics to exist as the company it is today. Yet the Superman line is comprised of editors who toe the company outlook of every comic matching the New 52's vision and reimagination of their characters, even if it's detrimental to what they were and represented before.
They can't do much, well actually they do but someone will have to take the flack. Supposedly a senior member of the editorial has blackmail material that makes him keep his job. That's why they keep their job. Or at least that's what de Campi says.
For the record de Campi means Berganza who has multiple harassing incidents under his belt.
Superman needs more writers like Morrison, Pack and Lobdell. Not writers like Snyder that starts up good and half the way loses all sense of direction.
Consistency has indeed been the main problem in Superman comics and only consistent good writers, that really want to write Superman stories and not stories where Superman simply enters, will do the job right.
What about John Byrne's Superman? He wrote Superman stories well.
True. And Byrne did wrote a good Superman, adding some interesting details to the mythology.
True. Superman doesn't need to be on his own universe, nor is he stealing anything from anyone. He was and still is the archtype for basically every superhero and supervillain there is.
Superman just needs to have less crossovers and if there's to be crossovers let it be between Superboy and Supergirl. He needs more independent stories where he can be all that he really is, and not be put on chains just so the other characters can have some room.
I don't understand. Isn't what you've just described roughly the same as putting him in his own universe? A Universe only populated by characters derived from his brand such as Superboy and girl, Steel, and all the rest.
To be honest with you I'm not sure I'd mind if Superman were actually from another universe. I think that'd be a fun experiment. The cross overs between his world and the greater DCU could be explained by him universe jumping on ever once in a while.
He's an idea: maybe make it like Multiversity where Superman reads about the exciting adventures of the DCU in comic books. He eventually learns that this world of fiction and ink is just as real as his own. Maybe he befriends Batman cross universe, and they do an almost pen pal type of thing before meeting in person (lol it's like super hero cross universe Tinder). They say goodbye and now we've established the link. Maybe some people even think Batman is crazier than the first though now that he's talking about how he secretly saved the world with the 1940's comic hero Superman lol
Now that I really think about it this would be cool if Superman comics were some of the inspiration for some heroes in the DCU or maybe the DCU comic in Superman's world were artist inspired by the real life guy.
You'd be able able to do literally whatever Superman story you'd like without wringing your hands over continuity with the greater DCU (and even his own continuity to some extent if your feeling fluid with your thinking). You could do vertigo-like tales, all ages, small quite tales, and so on.
Lol I think I may have just convinced myself on a stand alone Superman universe! And I've also successfully gone off on a tangent lol
Not at all. I just would like to see him with characters that he can either relate to him and him to them, and villains that actually challenge him in terms of his powers and intelligence.
He doesn't need to completely abandon characters like Bruce and Diana, in fact it would be fun to see him from time to time for example, go to Bruce and tell him "Hey there Bruce, sorry to drop by like this but I need your help and I can't exactly explain everything right now. So sorry about this." he'd use a teleporting device that would take them to another part of the galaxy. And the same could be applied to Diana. They could even create a little uncomfortable environment by for example having Superman go to help the Pax Galactica, and while he's there, Lourdes, would start to flirt with him from time to time, but a situation would arise where he would need Diana expertise and he'd go get her. And still Lourdes would try her best to put herself between Kal and Diana.
But I'd much more prefer to see him leave the Justice League, then having to see him diminished just so the other characters can have room. And ever since Lex entered the League should've been the moment when Supes left.
I don't want him out of Earth-0 or that he stops interacting with other Earth heroes and villains. At least 60% of the time we'd see him in completely new scenarios with completely new allies and enemies. The other 40% he could be seen doing his regular partnerships, and stories.
I just want him to have the room necessary so he can be all he can and should be.
Something he's not. Not now, not for quite some time now.
people just don't like good guys anymore. the good guys must became bad guys and only the bad guys can fly. the other thing is they have split his domination into flash, diana and other heroes so he is now part of the bigger picture and not the bigger picture anymore. superman is a human with alien origin but they write him as he would have been an alien and a maverick misfit.
People write to challenge the powers instead of the personality.
Of course they do. What's the point of Superman having powers if he's not going to use them or show them off?
This is a common thing I've noticed when people suggest ideas for challenging Superman - put him in a situation where his powers don't matter! So instead, Superman just ends up like Reed Richards, except without even the stretching powers, mind-powering his way through everything.
Which then begs the question, if that's the best you can come up with for Superman, then what's the point of him having powers in the first damn place?
The problem is his powers are no longer unique from so many spinoffs. So when you ask the question, "what makes him unique and interesting?" you can't say "because he can fly."
take this with a grain of salt because i have been a Sup fan since i was a lil kid, but: he's too powerful and totally and completely unrelatable to modern times. to me (and several of my friends) it's just hard to care about him any more. a fun idol to look up to as a kid, then wholly uninteresting as an adult fan. maybe Batman vs Superman will change that in the movies, but god damn, he's a train wreck otherwise, and not the fun to watch kind. sometimes old school is fun (Marvel got cheeky with Cap America being old school and it worked) but then there's just being stuck in old times. and that's his deal. he's a character from the old times that's hard to change, but then we DC does decide to try to change things up, they try to damn hard (or it at least come across that way). there's too many other characters out there that are 1) more interesting, and more importantly, 2) more relatable.
Τhe Superman-line editorial is where DC throws its losers.
It's a shame that's the case because it really shouldn't be happening. Superman is the underlying foundation, the genesis and catalyst for DC Comics to exist as the company it is today. Yet the Superman line is comprised of editors who toe the company outlook of every comic matching the New 52's vision and reimagination of their characters, even if it's detrimental to what they were and represented before.
This is really funny and strange to me. I watched a dc all access interview once(before Geoff Johns's new 52 run on Superman i think), where Dan Didio himself explained that when the Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman titles are doing well, the whole line seems to follow suit, which makes sense since people would look to flagship character titles to get a sense of quality, but so far the batman title is the only one that's had consistent quality(some parts better than others but still) Wonder Woman imo was great during Azzarello's run and then dropped and is now consistent but at a lower level and we all know what's been happening with superman, smh. I've stopped buying Superman comics! Well, except for the new Lois and Clark series.
I'm secretly hoping Tom Taylor's Batman/Superman issues are some kind of audition (not that he needs one) for him to get on one of the main books. Hopefully not with stifling editorial direction like on earth two.
People write to challenge the powers instead of the personality.
Of course they do. What's the point of Superman having powers if he's not going to use them or show them off?
This is a common thing I've noticed when people suggest ideas for challenging Superman - put him in a situation where his powers don't matter! So instead, Superman just ends up like Reed Richards, except without even the stretching powers, mind-powering his way through everything.
Which then begs the question, if that's the best you can come up with for Superman, then what's the point of him having powers in the first damn place?
Superman has (and needs) a diverse set when it comes to his dramas, and being de-powered is one of the vehicles for it.
Actually, I think Superman should have his stories divided between Yellow/Orange/Red Sun adventures. For me it’s the equivalent of an earth hero having space/land/underwater adventures.
I think I would even like it if DC treated Red Sun like “underwater”, it’s Supes in a different “environment” – losing his powers might be like being unable to run underwater, and if he stays long enough, he “drowns” (loses his powers). Probably wouldn’t have to be so overly literal about it though. And since planets in red sun systems need a hero too, he’s got a reason to pull out the “scuba gear” and all the cool toys. (Plus, you don't need to create these artificial plots to "explore his humanity" if he's happily "mortalling" it up half the time.)
Super-intelligence is simply the focus right now, because:
A) He’s depowered. His mind is all he has left to distinguish him.
B) He’s often written like an idiot. Needs to be fixed.
I do think his powers exist primarily as catharsis though. When Superman’s standing there with his arms folded, you know he’s going to kick ass like no tomorrow. It’s mostly about making it entertaining. Typically, a major tease build-up and then massive thrash-down with creative trolling, like Superman vs Elite, which I loved just for that very Superman fight.
To make challenges or drama on a consistent basis that doesn’t frustrate the concept of Superman (who’s basically an all-powerful champion), I think you have to approach it in a different way than just finding things to punch, except as a climax/pay-off. I think the idea is to transform the mundane into the realm of super-fantastic. Basically, you draw on the vast tropescape of sitcoms. Superman baby-sits omnipotent toddler - ho-ho, even mighty Superman is helpless before dirty diapers! (Or not, because Supes is great at everything - but you get the idea.) That sort of thing.
In saying that, I'm really just talking about when he's on Earth - "at home" as it were.
But… challenges for his powers? Besides just “someone stronger” or "a team of super-baddies"? Okay, I’ll take a crack at it:
Something really really heavy.
Two people at opposite ends of world. Save one, other one dies. Saves both anyway.
Luthor hid a shrink rayed super-nuclear device in an oxygen atom somewhere in Metropolis (probably Lois’ purse – just because), and is holding Superman “hostage” to it.
All the world’s nukes are suddenly detonated at the exact same moment, protected by force-fields tied to the life-support of orphan babies.
Luthor becomes president and inherits all the “Superman fail-safe” buttons. Good times are had.
Olympic games against actual Olympians, with the world at stake, and they keep cheating.
Semi-omnipotent king is bored of the universe and will unleash unstoppable murder plagues unless Superman can entertain him. (Oldies are still the goodies.)
Bad guy time-travels from future. Every time Superman catches him, future bad-guy reads it in the newspaper and tries something else. (Or maybe there’s a temporal recall device, if we want it to be a successive thing of Superman stopping this guy over and over.)
The world is poised on the brink of self-annihilation, and his only hope is to super-dance Strife off her feet at an Olympian ball. (Okay, I just like the idea of him “dancing with Strife” – he needs more trouble-makers in his life.)
Space dragons. All invulnerable, each possessing a unique strange ability to wreak havoc. Flames that turns water into salt, glass into gold, makes people dance uncontrollably, or turns cows into more dragons, gives dogs the power of speech, turns rain into acid, that sort of thing.
Interdimensional space eels keep tying up space traffic or destroying perfectly good planets. Superman must alter their migration patterns.
Save a civilisation from their dying world. Builds them a space super-city and pushes them off to colonise a distant planet, while fighting off pirates and the attentions of an over-possessive space princess.
Superman has to teach Mongul/Etrigan the true meaning of Christmas. Super-hypnotises him into thinking he’s Santa for a day – then has to deal with the terrible, awful, just plain-horrible-idea consequences.
Planet-eating monster. Superman has to stuff it full of dead planets or give it indigestion before it eats Earth. Or wedges its mouth open/closed with the magnetised super-hardened rings of Saturn. Etc.
Lobo challenges him to a race around the galaxy. Superman keeps getting side-tracked by distressed galactic citizens on the way.
Gets into animal husbandry. Breaks in, stables, domesticates and even breeds a variety of super-beasts, powerful and rare, (to be ridden into battle or used for domestic purposes like agriculture to help planets all over the universe. Maybe even “guard dogs”) – they each have unique and perplexing requirements which take him all over the cosmos on impossible quests to fulfill them. Kind of a “Labours of Heracles” thing.
Self-replicating super-strong Heracles’ each granted a unique magical ability on “spawn”, and they “all” want to be the one to take down Superman. (Similiar to that Buzz Lightyear villain "Torque" or something.)
@supermudz: Nice list of ideas. I think similarly. You're right, Superman needs super fantastic stories to challenge the character in all aspects. In that respect i think Grant Morrison is king at this point in time because he writes stories like that.
@ultimatesmfan: I'm not real expert on the guy, but I find his stories (that I've read) just a bit psychedelic. I know my list comes off loopy, because they were easy examples to explain, but in general I think I'd probably like a more Star Trek or space adventure atmosphere. Not that I have a mathematical distribution of "sci fi : fantastic" worked out or anything.
Personal preferences, though. And there's room for a lot of stuff in Superman adventures, anyway.
This is really funny and strange to me. I watched a dc all access interview once(before Geoff Johns's new 52 run on Superman i think), where Dan Didio himself explained that when the Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman titles are doing well, the whole line seems to follow suit, which makes sense since people would look to flagship character titles to get a sense of quality, but so far the batman title is the only one that's had consistent quality(some parts better than others but still) Wonder Woman imo was great during Azzarello's run and then dropped and is now consistent but at a lower level and we all know what's been happening with superman, smh. I've stopped buying Superman comics! Well, except for the new Lois and Clark series.
I'm secretly hoping Tom Taylor's Batman/Superman issues are some kind of audition (not that he needs one) for him to get on one of the main books. Hopefully not with stifling editorial direction like on earth two.
Yeah I've heard that one before, Squall is fond of using that example as proof of how Didio's words contradict his actions. You're totally right that it's only the Batman line that is doing really well and that's probably because this is where DC want to place their best and brightest talent as well as where they want to focus most of their effort on. Because at the end of the day, Batman sells, good or bad comics regardless, so if they can make them good, that's an added bonus. Batman has a critically acclaimed creative team on one comic (one I'm not a fan of but I'm in the minority), the other Bat Family titles like Grayson and Batgirl have substantial praise heaped on them, the Bat Family is front and centre for another weekly comic event and it's Batman who's crossing over with the TMNT in December. As always with the New 52, Batman is where DC's balance is at.
Wonder Woman has not been good since Azzarello left either IMO, the Finches are running the character into the ground. Whilst Yang might be an inexperienced comic writer, at least he's written some comics before. Meredith Finch is a novelist and not a comic writer I'm in the same boat, were it not for Lois and Clark, I wouldn't be buying any Superman comics at all. Taylor does sound like he can write Superman well and his tweets are a positive take on the character that has been missing for some time but his work on Injustice has made me wary of his ability to actually write Superman properly. And of course the Superman editorial has been especially influential on the Superman events lately and not in a good way so whatever good Taylor could bring might be prevented by editors.
To answer the OP: I don’t think it’s difficult to write Superman. It’s just difficult to write him in the way they keep trying to write him.
There’s like a dozen ways to approach a Superman type character, and it’s been easily successfully done for ages with not only Superman, but endless clones and expies all over the place – mostly cartoons. Superman is troubled by things peculiar only to his iconic status.
Funnily enough, if they just didn’t give a crap about the character, he would be marvellously breezy to write for – but he comes with a lot of pre-existing momentum and scrutiny which doubtless impacts the approach. Plus, it'd be pointless to use him in that case, and everyone would hate DC.
The main problem might be several things:
A) They abolished most of the elements that comprised the Superman fantasy in the first place.
B) They layer him up with endless artificial insecurities and inhibitions that horribly cripple him.
C) They may not really understand how to write a straight-forward alpha hero fantasy, except by pure accident.
One poor decision they made was (no offense) to marry him off to Lois Lane in the mainstream line, which was effectively the same as marrying James Bond off to Miss Moneypenny.
To push Supes, they need to embrace him and all his tropes, and market him with a zany cartoon to the effect of Jimmy Neutron with super-powers (yeah, preferably start with Superboy). Once the comic-consuming public knows, loves and remembers what Superman offers them as a character, they will graze on his comics through thick and thin, and the writers will understand and write to the appeal.
Don’t try to make him Important and Meaningful in order to justify his existence, just make him the most amazing superhero the world has ever seen. He’s a friggin’ comic-book character, he’s not that deep.
And the tropes he needs to embrace include all the classic superhero things like Damsels in Distress. Make it tongue-in-cheek ala Disney’s “Hercules”, if that’s what you need to sleep at night, but the romantic element is basically half the Superman mythos and appeal. Also, the whole “Clark -> Lois -> Superman” romance thing was one of the most integral parts of Superman’s mythos, and it’s utterly baffling (or rather - unfortunate) that it’s been skewdified into irrelevance. If you punch out Mongul in a forest, but no dame’s around to see it, does it even matter?
He’s not training to become the best and the strongest – he already is – you have to get your drama somewhere else, and the “Clark -> Lois -> Supes” love triangle/arrow is both classic and reliable drama that is immensely entertaining. It’s famous, and people have been ripping off it for decades.
Don’t tell me that’s not adorable.
Also, the dude can lift mountains over his head and bounce entire cheerleading squads off his biceps, he should be swamped in fan-girls. He’s supposed to be the strongest, smartest, most heroic, most inspiring, super-manliest superhero that ever existed – but where’s the mobs of women? Heck, where are his fan-clubs? I remember even Clark Kent having fan-girls back in the day.
The fact that he hardly even seems noticed by the opposite sex while saving the entire world on a daily basis kind of makes him the ultimate loser, so utterly lacking in attractive qualities that it actually implodes and negates all his super-heroism.
You put babes in every second issue swooning over his astounding heroics, and I guarantee Superman comics will suddenly get twice as interesting. If Lois Lane isn’t going to do her job, then dump her and get some women who will.
Also, if you have hostages on the scene, then it’s easy to create a sense of tension by having them *gasp* and chew their finger-nails as the bad guys shoot kryptonite lasers at Supes, even though Supes is completely on top of it. I think it works a lot better than knocking him out of the sky with rockets or something equally unconvincing.
If I had to recommend a couple of things for inspiration it would be:
Dexter’s Laboratory: Super-Monkey for the 100% super-troping (Genndy can have a straight-up Lois Lane expy swooning over a monkey, what’s your excuse, huh? HUH?), and maybe Major Glory for the hyper-conviction.
Jimmy Neutron: Trust me, he’s basically a hybrid Clark/Superboy expy.
Trigun: The Japanese have been endlessly producing massively popular shows based on invincible Superman peace-mongers for years – it’s really a lot easier than people have convinced themselves. And they have it down to a fine art.
Princess Bride: Funnily enough, the scene with Wesley vs Vizzini struck me as very Superman vs Lex Luthor. And it’s the greatest movie ever made, so who needs an excuse?
Fairly Odd Parents: Especially the sections with Crimson Chin, Dyno-Dad, etc. They’re quite chintastic.
JL8 Webcomic: I doubt I need to give reasons but… Pretty much zero super-heroics, and yet still immensely entertaining and engaging.
Heck, even Asterix and Obelisk is pretty rich with Superman.
Disney’s Hercules. Great Superboy->Superman expy (no, literally - that boomerang sword trick? Yeah, they didn't make that up), and most fantastic “Superman” theme song of all time. OF ALL TIME.
The best thing DC could do is to produce a Jimmy Neutron style Superboy show. Short 10 minute cartoons full of zany shenanigans, silly hate/love romance and a bald angry rival; with all the SA absurdity, to remind the public and themselves what’s fun about Superman, and how he works.
Once you pull that off, I guarantee Superman will flourish, and writers will be universally excited to write him.
@orangebat Hey, you never replied to my challenges post. Don’t leave me hanging, man. I am genuinely interested in your opinion and argument.
If you thought I was being rude and ignoring you in the Lois thread, nothing could be further from the truth – I just left my reply simmering on my desktop to the point it seemed silly to post it. We were obviously on the same page about the subject.
But if I was being rude, I am entirely willing to apologise.
@orangebat Hey, you never replied to my challenges post. Don’t leave me hanging, man. I am genuinely interested in your opinion and argument.
If you thought I was being rude and ignoring you in the Lois thread, nothing could be further from the truth – I just left my reply simmering on my desktop to the point it seemed silly to post it. We were obviously on the same page about the subject.
But if I was being rude, I am entirely willing to apologise.
Relax, pal, I wasn't ignoring you and I wasn't offended. :-) I'm just a fairly busy man, and there are not many opportunities for me to browse Comic Vine for prolonged periods of time, except on weekends. Plus, the girlfriend wants attention, so there's that too.
Your ideas seem...pretty solid. Even though I'm not the biggest fan of Silver Age Superman, I think I'd enjoy many of those. Especially the time-travelling guy. Superman needs more time-manipulating villains.
As for the Lois thread, I'd forgotten all about that. If there's no replies, I just assume the poster read through it, and figured there was nothing else to add to such exceptional logic. Or, more morbidly, they died in a car crash hours before.
Relax, pal, I wasn't ignoring you and I wasn't offended. :-) I'm just a fairly busy man, and there are not many opportunities for me to browse Comic Vine for prolonged periods of time, except on weekends. Plus, the girlfriend wants attention, so there's that too.
Lies. We have to fight now.
Your ideas seem...pretty solid. Even though I'm not the biggest fan of Silver Age Superman, I think I'd enjoy many of those. Especially the time-travelling guy. Superman needs more time-manipulating villains.
Cheers. Yeah, I'd say it would also simplify a few things as well. I'd actually personally love it if Superman could pull out Superboy-Prime level reality-breaking fights vs other kryptonians or that level of enemy. It would be so easy to use this as a plot & retcon device, as well as looking ridiculously visually awesome, along with other dramatic enablements.
The original Silver Age works best when you’re a kid. I actually just whipped out SA style because it’s very easy to pitch and write. But I bet a fresh take with an SA-style cartoon and whatever other elements would hold universal appeal, and kids are the ones that push their parents to buy the merchandise. That’s presumably why Superboy existed in the first place.
I think my favourite take might be essentially (aside from Star Trek / John Carter etc analogies I’ve made in the past) a Super-green-lantern Buzz Lightyear X Doc Savage (haven’t actually read his stories, but I get the strong impression he’s the right kind of guy). Hyper-competent super-alpha with humour, sci-fi and fantasticness.
Though, honestly, I would also love maximum "The Mask"-ish zaniness too, where it works. The dude has friggin' Looney Tune powers, how can he not be having fun with that?! Give him some understanding of his own power to entertain! Gimme a full on spontaneous Disney musical, dammit. :D
As for the Lois thread, I'd forgotten all about that. If there's no replies, I just assume the poster read through it, and figured there was nothing else to add to such exceptional logic. Or, more morbidly, they died in a car crash hours before.
Pf. See, now that’s what I assumed people would assume. All that effort at decency for nothing. I blame you, personally.
Now, this is just me, and all are free to totally eviscerate me if you'd like.
But I think that a reboot is necessary.
This has less to do with Superman and more to do with the cringeworthy mishandling of the New 52/DCYou line.
All you've got to do with it is keep Superman's core values, and get someone like Morrison or Pak or Johns or maybe Waid if he wasn't with Marvel. Develop his old villains more. Give the title a general overseer to make sure everything stays continuity-minty-fresh. And, hopefully, it'd be smooth sailing from thereon.
I would disagree. I think there are ways to make him relatable. Play up the human angle, the immigrant angle, the 'trying to do the right thing' angle. Oftentimes he's written much too alien for a guy who's lived his life since babyhood on Earth. Also, give him PREFERENCES. A favorite band, a food he hates, stuff like that. I mean, come on.
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