What is supermans combat speed

Hello after debating with @realitywarper that superman does not have street level combat speed i thought i'd make this thread. I expected superman to have better combat speed showings he seems to be lacking so iam wondering what supermans combat speed is. It's obviously above street but from what i have seen through research after speaking with realitywarper i don't see any feats putting his combat speed over light speed. Oh and it's pre52 superman.

inb4dbzfans

Combat speed is a combination of reaction speed, thinking speed, short distance travel speed, limbs movement speed, acceleration and deceleration.

Is this a definition we are using?

@chazz85: Which version of Supes are we using? and are fancalcs allowed?

@le0nhart: Ahh i forgot to specify Pre 52 and yes but people can debunk them with logic.

Pre 52 Superman has near light speed reflexes

By reflexes you mean that he can punch/block/evade at light speed? or perceive things moving at light speed?

Pre New 52 - Multi hypersonic-near releativistic combat speed with relativistic to possibly FTL reaction times.

New 52 - Hypersonic combat speed and millisecond reaction times.

Only the initial rush of Superman is fast as it's the only way that he can use the raw speed given by his flight speed... After this Superman don't even demonstrate the ability to follow a street-leveler whatever they lacks of super-speed or skills :

Gallery

1. Don't react to the initial attack
2. Get hit, don't block, don't avoid, don't strike back
3. Same stuff. Talk too much. Heat vision get avoided. Get tagged by a device.

Gallery

1. Rush and hit.
2. Get hit by his opponent.

Gallery

1. Doomsday teleport via a gateway to Superman and jump on him. Superman don't react and get hit several times.
2. Usual stuff as he get hit several times and block, parry or avoid nothing, nada, niet, zip.

The apotheosis against Deathstroke, even Superman wins the fight (thanks to his flying speed) :

1. Superman uses his flying speed to charge Deathstroke. DS parry his attack.
2. Deathstroke swing his blade and hit Superman once.
3. DS swing his blade a second time and hit Superman in the face.
4. Superman break a tree with his back.

To summarize :

1. Superman fighting skills are low.
2. Superman ability to block, parry, avoid attacks don't exist.
3. Superman attack rate his poor. He don't hit faster than street-levelers.

Superman isn't a fast fighter. He usually tries to dominate his opponent with an initial bullrush and overpower him via keeping the pressure with his flying speed.

@le0nhart: Punch/ block / evade at light speed

even worse

Actually professional MMA fighter can show more skill & speed than Superman

:D

@realitywarper:

Even your bull rush theory involves superman delivering barrages of punches past street level speed. Also him dodging batmans punch once proves his combat speed surpasses street.

@realitywarper: noce low-balling. Also, we are talking about pre52 Superman and not New52

Well, you know darn well combat speed is one of the most highly acclaimed things about the dragon ball franchise.

Superman's combat speed is anything from peak human to ftl, depending on what fits well into the story.

Don't feed the troll folks, no one takes him seriously around here anyway. Without the influence of prejudice, malice or bias, it might be possible to actually conduct some reasonable discussion for a change.

@chazz85:We also have this one for the New52, i know this isn't Superman, but i think that it is safe to scale him off of her

this is obviously way beyond street level...

Gallery

Street-levelers can deliver more attacks than this.

Doomsday is a slow fighter and Superman vibrated through most of his attacks IIRC...

Mongul is a slow fighter...

The Imperiex Probe is still slow...

The robot is still slow...

Superman mostly used hit & run tactics against them thanks to his flying speed.

Batman did an obvious attack from a long distance and a street-leveler could avoid it aswell...

I showed what happened in the comics.

@le0nhart said:

@chazz85:We also have this one for the New52, i know this isn't Superman, but i think that it is safe to scale him off of her

this is obviously way beyond street level...

Gallery

That proves that Kara can fight at high speed, not that Superman can as he demonstrate the opposite in every comics...

Fanboys and battle Baloney

@darling_luna: bologna*

@youngsoapman: Nope the battle forums aren't sausage, they are nonsense

Baloney as spelled like that, is slang for nonsense ^-^

Pre 52 Supersonic

New 52 slower than Thor

Jk

@realitywarper: Batman went to hit him and he reacted that much faster he moved a few feet away. Also if your fast enough to fly around punching anyone and make it appear that your in multiple place at once thats fast. Also he is punching them and flying away and shooting heat vision thats combat speed not a bull rush he is launching volleys of attacks at a opponent in fractions of a second. how is that not combat?

Everyone is above street level, street levelers are about street level (bullet tier, lightning tier, etc)

@darling_luna: Damn, never heard that before. What hood did you come up in?

@youngsoapman: Mister Rogers

1) Batman attack was oooobvious, even there is afterimages, I can cite plenty of street-levelers whom can do the same.

So ? Plenty of afterimages here...

2)

lso he is punching them and flying away and shooting heat vision thats combat speed not a bull rush he is launching volleys of attacks at a opponent in fractions of a second. how is that not combat?

That's an hit & run tactic with less than 5 attacks per panel...

In what it's impressive against slow brawlers ???

Why do you say it's a bullrush ????

I already said that's an hit & run tactic in my previous post

#20 Posted by RealityWarper (12231 posts) - 47 minutes, 18 seconds ago - Show Bio

Street-levelers can deliver more attacks than this.

Doomsday is a slow fighter and Superman vibrated through most of his attacks IIRC...

Mongul is a slow fighter...

The Imperiex Probe is still slow...

The robot is still slow...

Superman mostly used hit & run tactics against them thanks to his flying speed.

Batman did an obvious attack from a long distance and a street-leveler could avoid it aswell...

Slightly above street level.

Since you can't have a superman discussion without goku, anf vice versa. When has goku ever been tagged by a street leveler, or someone massively slower than him?

@realitywarper: In these bullrushes he fires his heat vision while flying away and attacking at a different point meaning his is moving away and hitting them again before the heat vision lands on the opponent and for him to attack them he has to throw a punch faster than a heat vision. Now unless iam wrong a punch is a attack which is a form of combat so throwing a punch and landing it before heat vision hits a opponent is a pretty fast punch. Proving superman can punch faster then any street leveler just because superman is a bad fighter does not mean he's a slow one.

Spiderman level

You have to notice that his opponents have the same combat profile :

They are slow and very very static...

Superman remains close to them by the way.

If you are specifically speaking about this :

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11116/111166158/4788675-2712780-2374123_doomsdayrex118xm.jpg

I have an hard time considering this an impressive feat as Doomsday don't move at all.

Moreover Superman here just :

1. Land two punches in Doomsday back
2. Grab and rise up DD arm.
3. Shoot DD with his HV in the head.

That's cool but unimpressive.

I'm sure that I can find scans of Gorgon doing better in terms of combat speed against several opponents...

Do you want to try ?

I guess saying Blue has street level reactions is the 'cool kid' thing to do now lol.

Wouldn't you say DCnU Supes has shown Massively Hypersonic combat speed?

If he can physically move FTL, then it stands to reason he can react to things at that speed, possibly a little more.

@realitywarper: Yeah prove it

• Superhuman Speed: He is capable of moving, reacting, running and flying at superhuman speeds. While not as fast as the Flash on a planet, Superman can fly at speeds faster than light and is considered one of the fastest beings in the universe. He can use this power to disarm opponents, catch bullets or shrapnel and cross vast distances in seconds.

From the DC comics wiki on superman this implies that his comabt speed is part of his superspeed.

Wonderwoman a known skilled and fast fighter states superman is similar in combat speed.

Wonderwoman speed feat

It's accepted that wonderwoman is a fast fighter definately greater then street level. So being around wonderwomans speed is good and even wonderwoman says superman has more raw speed then her and she seems to be saying this in terms of combat.

Scan by scan :

Un :

I will use the numbers to answer to every panels in each scans :

1. One attack to the throat. Unimpressive. I pass.
2. Rushing underwater via flying speed. I pass.
3. Delivering 5 attacks on an seemingly disoriented opponent. Unimpressive. I pass. An human can do it on the ground.
4. Using his flying speed. I pass.
5. Hitting Ultraman one in the face. Unimpressive. I pass.

Dos :

1. "POOM POOM POOM" >>> 3 attacks. Unimpressive. I pass.
2. Rushing with flying speed. I pass.
3. Flying speed.
4. Not superman.
5. Still flying.

Moreover his opponent is a big minautor with probably 0 combat speed. I pass.

Tres :

1. Wonder Woman say that she is faster than Superman in a fight. Superman ask why.
2. Wonder Woman explanations : She is a trained fighter and his body memorized the fighting moves so she don't have to think about them. She fight naturally with just her combat reflexes. That actually proves my point. :)
3. Superman, like his fans, don't accept Wonder Woman answer (lol ^^), and ask Batman his opiniion about it. Batman say that Superman will not like his answer.
4. Batman makes an analogy between Usain Bolt and Bruce Lee to explain the difference between travel speed and combat speed. In short he is saying that Superman moves faster than Wonder Woman as he is comparing Clark to Usain Bolt and that Wonder Woman is far faster than Clark in a fight as he is comparing her to Bruce Lee. Batman actually proves my point a second time here. ;)
5. Nothing interesting in the last panet.

Quatro :

1. Flash is slowing down.
2. Wonder Woman tries to catch him with her lasso.
3. WW catches him.

That's a good feat but still not relevant to a combat speed.

That proves that she has a good perception and that she is able to anticipate her target trajectory aswell.

Cool but not really relevant to a combat.

It's accepted that wonderwoman is a fast fighter definately greater then street level. So being around wonderwomans speed is good and even wonderwoman says superman has more raw speed then her and she seems to be saying this in terms of combat.

In terms of combat she fight like a trained fighter and Superman don't.

It doesn't mean that her combat speed is insane.

She is probably as fast as any very well trained fighter.

@sovereign91001: On some occasions yes he does have the showings for the massively hypersonic range. It's the consistency of when New 52 Superman performs massively hypersonic combat speed feats that have me debating myself on whether the current Superman is hypersonic or massively hypersonic.

@realitywarper said:

@chazz85 said:

@realitywarper: Batman went to hit him and he reacted that much faster he moved a few feet away. Also if your fast enough to fly around punching anyone and make it appear that your in multiple place at once thats fast. Also he is punching them and flying away and shooting heat vision thats combat speed not a bull rush he is launching volleys of attacks at a opponent in fractions of a second. how is that not combat?

1) Batman attack was oooobvious, even there is afterimages, I can cite plenty of street-levelers whom can do the same.

So ? Plenty of afterimages here...

Those are not afterimages, that's juxtaposition of different stages of the fight in one pannel. Know the difference.

@realitywarper: Yes but wonderwoman a trained fighter admits her and superman have similar combat speed on pannel and you seem to agree wonderwoman is faster then a streetleveler. So therefore iam right. Also reaction feats = combat feats. If a man can catch a bullet he can block a fist. Your saying that when superman catches a bullet he doesn't instantly react. Also if superman does need to process his attacks he does it at superspeed meaning that when he does process a attack it's at superspeed. Also in all these scans that superman rushes at opponent some of them containing after images thats normal speed? So a human can punch fast enough to create a afterimage!? Also in these rushes with flying speed in a lot of the scans i sent superman changes form of attack and attacks oppenents with blows so fast it creates after images. So your saying spiderman can run round someone looking like he's appearing in many places at once while punching them? Also your dismissing ever reaction feat superman has done so if superman were to catch a disk moving at mach 10k in a zig zig(Ik theres not a feat like this) your saying he couldn't catch batmans punch? Your basically saying reactions don't count in fights what so ever.

Lets look at this scan from dbz

Now goku hits freeza once in this pannel which according to your logic earlier is unimpressive even though DBZ characters have insane reaction feats. In fact most fights in dragonball manga are presented like this

Another scan were goku and cell only hit eachother once or twice. By your logic thats unimpressive and they have slow combat speed. Your dismissing all my scans were superman attacks fast and just saying he has slow combat speed.

Even though he has the following

1. Many scans showing high combat speed
2. Many scans showing high reaction speed
3. Many scans showing he can precieve a lot faster then the average human

So by your logic who has high combat speed does flash,goku,naruto or are they slower in combat then batman? Come one tell me. You have no evidence supporting your claim i have proved mine to you more then enough times. I will keep this up till you admit iam right.

@lvenger: That's fair I suppose. Just my opinion but two or three good feats would serve as a good baseline.

@realitywarper:

@le0nhart said:

@realitywarper: Is this enough to prove that Pre-52 is faster than Street levelers?

It's a fair opinion and definitely a reasonable one. Superman just needs consistent feats again to be portrayed as fast as his previous incarnation.

@chazz85:

Yes but wonderwoman a trained fighter admits her and superman have similar combat speed on pannel and you seem to agree wonderwoman is faster then a streetleveler.

I admitted that she is as fast as any well-trained fighter.

So therefore iam right.

Nope.

Superman didn't show any impressive combat speed.

Also reaction feats = combat feats.

What ?

If a man can catch a bullet he can block a fist.

Yep.

And Superman don't.

We are not in the speculation here.

I thinked that feats where the basics of Comic Vine.

Your saying that when superman catches a bullet he doesn't instantly react.

Please show in my post where I said that.

I'm not sure that you perfectly got what Wonder Woman said.

Also if superman does need to process his attacks he does it at superspeed meaning that when he does process a attack it's at superspeed.

Nope.

The brain processing doesn't relate to the ability to move the body / limbs at high speeds.

Also in all these scans that superman rushes at opponent some of them containing after images thats normal speed?

His opponents are mostly statics.

So a human can punch fast enough to create a afterimage!?

The afterimage just shows several actions in one panel.

Some trained fighters are able to land several attacks in one second or one panel for what it matters.

Also in these rushes with flying speed in a lot of the scans i sent superman changes form of attack and attacks oppenents with blows so fast it creates after images.

And that remains nothing impressive.

So your saying spiderman can run round someone looking like he's appearing in many places at once while punching them?

I'm just saying that Superman punching slow fighters several times or moving around them while they remain static don't makes him a fast fighter.

Wolverine & Spiderman are famous for they ability to use acrobatics and swift strikes in a fight.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case for Doomsday, Imperiex Probe, the Minotaur and Mongul... Except if you can prove otherwise, of course. ;)

Also your dismissing ever reaction feat superman has done so if superman were to catch a disk moving at mach 10k in a zig zig(Ik theres not a feat like this) your saying he couldn't catch batmans punch?

What I think doesn't matter...

How is Superman acting in a fight ? :)

Your basically saying reactions don't count in fights what so ever.

In order to argue for a character in a fight, I'm showing a character in a fight.

Lets look at this scan from dbz

Now goku hits freeza once in this pannel which according to your logic earlier is unimpressive even though DBZ characters have insane reaction feats. In fact most fights in dragonball manga are presented like this

Goku is able to fight FTE for people whom are already able to see guy fighting at FTE speeds and Goku's combat speed increased exponentially since that.

For Superman it's not the case as he never was depicted as a fast fighter nor and especially not the guys like Doomsday or the Imperiex Probe are famous for their combat speed...

That's clearly two different contexts here.

Another scan were goku and cell only hit eachother once or twice. By your logic thats unimpressive and they have slow combat speed. Your dismissing all my scans were superman attacks fast and just saying he has slow combat speed.

That's another context.

1) The speed of the characters increase with the power-scaling to insane levels in DBZ.

2) You only showed Superman fighting slow fighters and moving faster than them.

Even though he has the following

1. Many scans showing high combat speed
2. Many scans showing high reaction speed
3. Many scans showing he can precieve a lot faster then the average human

1)

Not really. As I said that's nothing impressive for an human being in a fight.

2)

Yep. Not in a fight against fast fighters. Too bad.

3)

And that's only relevant to his brain processing.

So by your logic who has high combat speed does flash,goku,naruto or are they slower in combat then batman?

You are interpretating my logic here.

That's not what I pointed out.

You are avoiding the context of the characters.

I do know the context of those characters.

Come one tell me. You have no evidence supporting your claim i have proved mine to you more then enough times. I will keep this up till you admit iam right.

In terms of combat speed you showed nothing especially noticeable.

Superman best combat speed feat is against Ultraman whom is as slow as any untrained fighter in terms of combat speed and Superman only hit him 5 times.

Unimpressive.

Show me scans of Superman dodging & blocking attacks and striking at speeds far above any human can do and then we can talk. Superman fighting slow bricks is actually unimpressive.

@chazz85:

@le0nhart said:

@realitywarper:

@le0nhart said:

@realitywarper: Is this enough to prove that Pre-52 is faster than Street levelers?

1) If that's Superman punches and fast upper body movements that produces the sonic booms, I will accept that Superman is faster than street-levelers.

2) If that's Superman short burst of speed with his flying speed that maintain him in contact with his opponents, I will stay with my initial statement.

"I'm moving so fast that I produce Sonic Booms."

That sounds like his raw movement speed to me.

@realitywarper: Do

Gallery

When did Doomsday become a slow fighter?

@kenshima15 said:

@realitywarper: Do

@realitywarper said:

@chazz85 said:

@realitywarper:

Even your bull rush theory involves superman delivering barrages of punches past street level speed. Also him dodging batmans punch once proves his combat speed surpasses street.

Street-levelers can deliver more attacks than this.

Doomsday is a slow fighter and Superman vibrated through most of his attacks IIRC...

Mongul is a slow fighter...

The Imperiex Probe is still slow...

The robot is still slow...

Superman mostly used hit & run tactics against them thanks to his flying speed.

Batman did an obvious attack from a long distance and a street-leveler could avoid it aswell...

@drfate said:

@realitywarper: noce low-balling. Also, we are talking about pre52 Superman and not New52

I showed what happened in the comics.

Gallery

When did Doomsday become a slow fighter?

He run and catch them everytime.

That's why Guy Gardner said that.

I own the comics by the way.

Scan 1:

DD rush the JLA, ragdoll everybody with one-punch and grab Guy.

Scan 2 :

Maintain his grip on Gardner and hit him... Wow ! Two times !

I'm impressed.

Really.

Post Crisis Superman (running speed) is below hypersonic level, by the way....

do you see the blur there? it is the Flash running at hypersonic speed, Post Crisis running speed <<<hypersonic speed