Pre-52/Rebirth Superman respect thread

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toptom

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#1  Edited By toptom

This capability thread will be for Pre-52 and Rebirth Superman.

No Caption Provided

If you are new to the character don't worry, he is the same person ,he just has a new costume now. I'll be working on this for quite some time, i'll put most of his notable feats in sections but we will have some feats by the time I'm done: i won't be including them in any section, we can simply post them into the comments as they come.

So here we go:

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STRENGTH:

Lifting a book with an infinite number of pages with Captain Marvel.

Superman and Wonder Woman lifting the Specter who was as heavy as the Eternity.
Superman could lift and contain (later even with the help of John Stewart) a black hole the size of a speck of dust which was breaking the magnetic field that was containing it. Even if small this black hole was so massive it was bending the space around it and if set free it could suck in the whole solar system. From JLA # 77 : Stardust Memories.
After getting a sundip Superman could move Warworld despite it was using its thrusters at full power. Warworld at that time had also absorbed all the Imperiex's energy making this feat even more impressive.
This could be speculation from my part, however we see Superman flying into a huge cannibal planet which was eating the sun . Superman uses his cold breath to freeze its brain and then we see that there 's some distance between the planet and our star meaning that Superman ( who was amped thanks to the proximity of the sun) could push it away: if that planet was "unconscious" at the moment it should have remained in the same place thanks to the sun's gravity.
Superman and Hal Jordan moving the Earth into its orbit while Starbreaker was pushing it toward the sun. From Justice League of America # 29
In "JLA 80-Page Giant #3 - The Century War II" released by DC Comics on 1 October 2000, ancient alchemical engines were causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman and Green Lantern, initially together and then individually took turns holding the moon back against the "geometrically increasing force" that was causing it to fall. Superman got the last "moon-bracing" shift, so he had to hold the moon while contrasting a greater force. We don't see Superman pushing the moon but it was stated twice that he was going to take over Kyle, and when we see Kyle with the league ( right after J'onn advised him that Kal was coming) it's because Superman was holding back the moon instead of him at that moment.
Superman,Kyle and Diana pushed the moon into the atmosphere and then pulled it back into its proper orbit, despite its huge momentum
Superman could almost punch the moon out of orbit while he had kryptonite cancer.
Overpowering 5 Kryptonian soldiers while Zod was punching him in the face. (Plus a kryptonian general stating the difference from a normal super powered citizen and a soldier)

Breaking free from the combined grip of Non and Ursa in three different occasions

Overpowering and keeping at bay multiple kryptonian dinosaurs which were aborbing sun's light just as he does.
Stopping a spaceship 70 miles long that was coming so fast it could split the planet's crust and its nucleo.
Moving a miniature star system while resisting to its sun'sheat (which wasn't powering him up). The mass of that star system was groving by the moment and its gravity was starting to damage Metropolis (not yet in these scans)

Superman pulling the Stryker’s Island prison into space.
Superman pulling the Stryker’s Island prison into space.

Lifting a mountain as if it was nothing.
These scans comes from different comics. Here we see Superman battling the whole Justice Lague (Diana,Green Lantern,Flash, Martian Manhunter...) plus Orion,Barda,Superboy and Steel and they barely could subdue him by making Kyle synthesize some kryptonite. Martian Manhunter even stated that they couldn't stand a chance without the element of surprise. Here Superman was slightly more powerful since he has spent some time near the sun when he was throwing away all the nuclear weapons he had stolen under the Dominus influence.
Almost all the alien population on earth was under mind control and many heavy hitters ( Martian Manhunter, Powergirl, Kilowog..etcc..) tried and failed into keeping Superman away from their spaceship.
Superman releasing Darkseid from the Source (we also see that in order to free Superman himself it was necessary the might of 5 different Supergirls). / Superman releasing the High father's Staff from the Source which required unimaginable strength)
Stopping the assault of a brainwashed Hal Jordan
Two different examples of Superman escaping from a Braniac's construct. In the second example there was even some kryptonite involved and Braniac himself was surprised that Superman could still use his powers.
Superman turning coal into a diamond. Such a feat requires huge strength since diamonds form deep underground, from 120 to 200 km beneath the surface of the Earth.
In "JLA 80-Page Giant #3 - The Century War II" Supes and Kyle were essentially toying with the Centurion's space fleet: Superman was apparently single handedly throwing those huge ships at Kyle in order for him to hit them with a huge baseball bat construct.
Multiple examples of Superman easily lifting,stopping and throwing huge objects (space stations, planes,ships...)
Stopping a punch from doomsday causing a huge shock wave
Stopping a punch from Mongul with ease
Quickly overpowering his drones
Throwing into the sun thousand of tons of kryptonite
Just two of the different examples in which it is told that Superman is the most powerful being on the planet. Maybe this isn't exactly the case but this shows us how he is seen between his equals.
Superman is trying to talk with Supergirl but she attacks him, then he stops her assault
Superman saying that he is more powerful than Supergirl and stating that the older he gets the more powerful he becomes.
Superman saying that he is more powerful than Supergirl and stating that the older he gets the more powerful he becomes.
 A nice explanation from Lex Luthor and Ruin on how his powers work.
A nice explanation from Lex Luthor and Ruin on how his powers work.
Pushing a giant monster into the mantle
Knocking on the door
Superman could push multiple huge spheres ( which had about 5 miles of diameter) from the outer to the inner core while resisting to their destructive impulses. He hadn't enough strength left to perform the same feat with the last one so he has brought it on the surface in order to use its last impulse against his enemies
Kal-el is not average but canonically he's the strongest Kryptonian. Here it's been stated he's is the most physiologically perfect Kryptonian thanks to the dna of his parents and to a treatment to correct a flaw which was present in every bloodline of Krypton.
Kal-el is not average but canonically he's the strongest Kryptonian. Here it's been stated he's is the most physiologically perfect Kryptonian thanks to the dna of his parents and to a treatment to correct a flaw which was present in every bloodline of Krypton.

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The_Dog_of_War

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@toptom: It was Earth-5 Captain Marvel that lifted the book with Superman, not New 52 Shazam.

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buttersdaman000

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I have a few good speed feats too if you want them. They're all roughly lightspeed/nanosecond.

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Lvenger

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Yes the redux of the Superman respect thread. Looking forward to what you've got to upload mate.

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toptom

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#5  Edited By toptom
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STRIKING FORCE:

Two examples of Superman destroying a moon.
Superman stating that he can shatter a planet
Superman stating that he can shatter a planet
Superman was on the defensive but he could still punch Konvikt hard enough to shatter small planets
Superman was on the defensive but he could still punch Konvikt hard enough to shatter small planets
Superman can split a moon in two with one punch
Black Racer redirecting Superman's punch back at him which cracks a large part of the moon
Superman could almost punch the moon out of orbit while he had kryptonite cancer.
One shotting Earth-Man who had got all the Superman's powers plus all the Legion's ones
One shotting Commander Gor, Zod's right-hand man
Krypto and his master deliver the knockout punch to The Eradicator causing a 10 megaton explosion on the moon.
Non attacks Superman from behind but he gets quickly defeated with two punches.
Superman defeating Subject 17 who was as fast as him and as strong as him ( if not stronger)
Destroying the John Stewart's construct
Destroying several imperiex drones. A single drone was powerful enough to stalemate the whole jla
Causing a shock wave
Causing a shock wave
Causing a small earthquake while fighting underground.
Causing a small earthquake while fighting underground.
Punching Captain Marvel from metropolis to the hawaii and then through a mountain while he was possesed by Eclipso
Just the air pressure from his fists could crack the ground plus stating that he could have killed Mongul
Just the air pressure from his fists could crack the ground plus stating that he could have killed Mongul
Defeating Batman while he was possesed by the Black Rock
Superman wasn't yet at full power ( he was quickly regaining his full might) but he could one shot Gog
Easily defeating Mongul in two different occasions
Showing great strength and also great precision: punching Neutron into a geosynchronous orbit over Metropolis
Showing great strength and also great precision: punching Neutron into a geosynchronous orbit over Metropolis
Defeating Titano after being hit with a kryptonite blast
Defeating Cyborg Superman in two different occasions
Punching Lex Luthor within his battle suit through some buildings while he was weakened by kryptonite
Causing shock waves while fighting Doomsday
KO'ing Grundy
After being punched by Mr Majestic Captain Atom stated that Superman is stronger than the Kherubim, such a statement is valid if we consider that the Superman's streaking feats are above the Mr Majestic's ones.
Destroying a huge spaceship
Destroying a huge spaceship
Punches Wonder Woman from the sun to the earth with a single strike despite being exposed to kryptonite
Punches Wonder Woman from the sun to the earth with a single strike despite being exposed to kryptonite
Defeating Darkseid in three different occasions
Superman is having the upper hand against 3 powerful heroes of a parallel universe: Captain Thunder, Abin Sur and Cyborg.
Pre-52 Diana attacks Superman on his shoulders but then he defeats her. She even states that she can't defeat him in combat. This is from JLA: A league of one.
Superman quickly defeating a version of him coming from an alternate universe
Superman quickly defeating a version of him coming from an alternate universe
Punching Mongul through a building....very very hard.
Thunderclaps
Studying his enemy and using a 18 theraertz super-scream
Another sonic scream, he even cracks the Hal Jordan's construct with it
Darkseid's essence emerges to claim the Miracle Machine, but Superman destroys him for good by using the last of his super-powered breath to sing, countering the vibrational frequency of Darkseid's life-force.

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toptom

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#6  Edited By toptom

That's it. I've edited the first two sections, now they are finally completed. The next section will be the flight or the durability one

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Costy21

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Knight101

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#@toptom: I didn't see this one, so I'll post the scan of it. These scans show Superman on Mt. Everest (from Superman: The Man of Steel #58). And we longtime Superman fans know that Metropolis is close to New York. From Mt. Everest to NYC, that is 7,530 miles. And Superman traveled all that distance in an instant, going faster than the newsfeed and even before Lois looked behind her.

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toptom

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#9  Edited By toptom
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DURABILITY:

He survives to being double-punched by a being that possessed the power of all creation
Absorbs enough anti sunlight from a sun eater that would have vaporized half a galaxy
Superman was currently weakened by red sun radiation but he could still survive to the sun eater's detonation which was 50 times the size of the Kepler's Supernova
Surviving to a sun eater's explosion which was powerful enough to knock him light years away , from The Adventures of Superman # 477
Here Luthor possessed a near limitless power and he tried to use all of it to kill Superman. Luthor couldn't do anything negative if he wanted to keep his power (because that's how the Child changed the powers with its dying breath during the Black Ring saga) but Luthor reacts in pure anger as he realizes that he can do anything except destroy Superman and rejects his power by blasting at Superman in an attempt to kill him before the power leaves; Luthor tries but fails and Superman eventually defeats him.
Taking superboy-prime's punches (he was wearing his armor that increased his power even further) while they were flying trough an asteroids belt made of kryptonite,plus flying trough a red sun plus crashing on Oa.
Surviving to a supernova
Was right in the center of and survived the collision of Apokolips and New Genesis ( that are probably much bigger planets than Earth)
Surviving to the Omega Beams while he was exposed to the Kryptonite
Surviving to the Omega Beams while he was exposed to the Kryptonite
Taking the Darkseid's omega beams in multiple occasions
Withstanding to the equivalent pressure of a giant black hole
Withstanding to the equivalent pressure of the center of a star
Taking the Warworld's explosion
Getting his powers back by bathing in the sun in three occasions. ( In the last one he was weakened)
Resisting to a star's heat. This sun was from a different universe and it wasn't powering him up.
Resisting to a star's heat. This sun was from a different universe and it wasn't powering him up.
Flying into the sun during the Our Worlds at War saga
Superman tries to hold a sphere which was emitting a thermonuclear level heat
After being weakened by Khyber,Superman gets tossed deep into the Earth causing a massive devastation. Superman survives and emerges years later when he finally had absorbed enough energy from the heat and the molten rocks
Survives to a huge explosion on Apokolips
Survives to a huge explosion on Apokolips
Survives to an explosion as powerful as a million nuclear blasts
Surviving to a 5000 megaton explosion
Surviving to a 5000 megaton explosion
Takes a powerful blast from Coldcast straight to the head
Taking different blasts from Breach who was powerful enough to one shot Martian Manhunter
Taking powerful energy blasts from the Entropy Aegis that was probably the most advanced war suit of the pre-52 universe. (The first blast was powerful enough to destroy all of Metropolis)
Taking a nuke without being damaged even if there was some kryptonite around
Cyborg Superman was blasting Clark with enough energy to whipe out entire cities. (Here Hank Henshaw was amped by the energies of an entire alien planet)
Taking a huge energy beam from a mind controlled Hal Jordan
Walking through a blast fired from a Kyle's construct, the focus of his energies were directed at Superman
Surviving to the Golem's defenses, destroying some planetoids and taking a powerful explosion which released enough "strange energy" that scrambled even his cells
Superman was holding back but he could still damage the Emperor Joker and then he gets punched far into the outer space. ( The Emperor Joker was a near omnipotent being that had litterally flicked planets around in this issue)
Superman and Bizzarro had their minds exchanged, so here Clark is punching his body through the whole planet
Superman and Bizzarro had their minds exchanged, so here Clark is punching his body through the whole planet
Hit back by the Claw of Horus (a magical artifact), which is the equivalent of being punched with the whole planet
Getting punched and blasted to the moon in two occasions without being damaged
Superman is sent into space with an axe strike but he is just fine
Three dirrent examples of Superman not being harmed by incredibly powerful punches: he has been sent into orbit, from Metropolis to China and from Metropolis to Tokio.
Superman has brought a white dwarf star into the earth's core ( it did weight 100 tons but it was feeding his cells with sunlight) and used his hv and cold breath on it in order to restore our planet's gravity: by doing so he had to endure the heat and more than a planet's gravitational pull
Resisting to the explosion of a doomsday device while he was inside the earth's core. This impulse was stronger than the previous one that could still shake the whole planet
Taking Preus 's energy blasts and punches whilst weakened by liquid kryptonite. In the same story arc Preus could defeat the Martian Manhunter using just his optic blasts.
Taking an energy blast from Captain Atom
Taking an energy blast from Captain Atom
Inhaling an acid gas without being damaged

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deactivated-5ee9c4453cde7

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@toptom: For the Striking sections, you forgot the feats from Infinite Crisis against Earth 2 Kal-L and his fight against the galactic Golem when he busted several planetoids.

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deactivated-5ee9c4453cde7

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Also the 50 supernovas feat is more of speed as he escaped the electromagnetic shock wave which would have incinerated him. Also it would be great if you took note that the shadow moon Superman busted was moving at supersonic-hypersonic speed and was made of unknown matter. That was more than just moon busting.

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HeavenlyDarkDragon

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@toptom:

If I can be totally blunt and honest here without being crucified for it. I believe you're making a mistake with this thread.

Here's the main reason why... Pre-Flashpoint Superman feats and Rebirth Superman feats cancel each other out.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that saw how Rebirth Superman struggled just to be inside Earth outercore. Well, pre-Flashpoint Superman would not have had that problem. He would've gone to the outercore and even the inner core without breaking a sweat. Rebirth Superman seemed like he was about to die.

Also the way he handled or better yet wasn't able to handle Doomsday. Pre-Flashpoint Superman faced Doomsday on numerous ocasions. The first-time he died fighting it. The next time he almost died again. But afterwards as the years went by, Superman began to seemingly grow stronger or at least better at handling Doomsday. Rebirth Superman not only wasn't able to defeat Doomsday he almost got himself killed in the fight at least two times. By sheer luck (writer plot device) didn't he joined New52 Superman in death.

Also there's the big elephant in the room at all times. Is Rebirth Superman, pre-Flashpoint Superman? So far there's been a lot of hints saying that he might not be him.

Yes. Johns as come out and said that Rebirth Superman is pre-Flashpoint Superman. Too bad the feats speak otherwise.

You see. One of the main critics I saw, pre-Flashpoint fans say about New52 Superman, was that he didn't possessed the history and continuity of pre-Flashpoint Superman. And here's the problem... Neither does Rebirth Superman! Their feats don't match. Hell, even details about past comics and origin stories of the pre-Flashpoint have been altered, and this Rebirth Superman not only accepts them but he himself is the source of some of those inconsistencies storywise.

There's something going on that put a big question mark on every character credibility, most of all Superman.

We know that not only Manhattan but most likely also other players have been messing with the timeline. But DC didn't let Johns restrict those time manipulations to the New52, they've also came out and said that even before Flashpoint, the timeline had already been manipulated.

So yes. You can make a thread where you're basically going on with the belief that you're talking about the same characters, but time (the real judge of the Rebirth idea) will put it to the test and if it fails, DC might simply come up with a reboot that wipes the slate clean. Where they might set a specific period in time and say:

"It was from this Crisis onward, that the timeline began being manipulated. So everything afterwards was all different results of that manipulation. None were the real timeline but broken images. And now from this point on, none of the facts and feats of the past matter anymore. We're starting from scratch."

Honestly this Rebirth Superman hasn't convinced me he's pre-Flashpoint Superman. As far as anyone can truly say for a fact is that he believes he is. But we've seen it time and time again, DC pull the you-believed-you-were-but-you're-not, card.

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deactivated-5ee9c4453cde7

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@HeavenlyDarkDragon: I've been thinking about that as well, as there are some inconsistencies within the events of Convergence. (Wally from Convergence was wearing his costume pre Flash Rebirth and both his twins still had access to the Speed Force) However in the end I think that either the imposter is the New 52 Superman (I hope not) or that somehow they're one and the same.

As for His power levels, it could really just be due to the writer. Pre-Flashpoint Superman had many low showings in the last few years before N52 that contradicted his higher ones. The in universe explanation being either because of how he holds back consciously by calculating the force and speed of his blows and subconsciously through mental/psychological limiters that he broke with Mongul II's help during Our World's at War, powers fluctuating depending on solar energy he has, and like in one scan in the strength section (one next to Superman explaining to Supergirl why he's actually stronger than her) stress and emotions making him absorb/retain more solar energy.

Specific explanations for the feats themselves:

1. Doomsday- Superman mentioned how this Doomsday seemed to be stronger and smarter than before.

2. Earth's core- Lex once theorized that geothermal energy from the core can have the opposite effect of solar energy. This was proven true in Superman Unchained when Superman depowered himself and Wraith by fighting in the mantle. It's a feat that Superman retained his powers at all really.

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Lvenger

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#14  Edited By Lvenger

@heavenlydarkdragon: And if I can be totally blunt and honest, this isn't the thread where you can go off on your baseless and unsupported conspiracy theories about Rebirth Superman not being Pre Flashpoint Superman despite the evidence and Dan Jurgens contradicting your opinion. Based on all available information, this Superman is the same as the one from the previous continuity. You're looking way too deeply into the one line Mr Oz said about Superman not being who he thinks he is. Which isn't enough for even the wildest of personal theories to base an opinion on. Superman being affected by the Earth's core is WIS, writers always have inconsistent ideas about a character's power level. That's the simple reason why Superman was affected by the Earth's core, because Hitch wanted him to be for the sake of story. Please refrain from peddling an unsupported theory which has no credible basis to go off on a thread that has nothing to do with this topic.

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toptom

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#15  Edited By toptom

@heavenlydarkdragon:

Well dc has a long story regarding bad decision for Superman but i doubt that they will be crazy enough to reveal that the current superman is not the pre-52 one, despite what Mr OZ said: Superman's titles are well reviewed and he is finally selling well...and that's all that matters and a huge part in this success is due to the fact that fans know that this Superman is the post crisis one. Then as for his feats and power levels they mean nothing,they always fluctuate with any different writer: pre-52 Superman could survive to sun eaters's explosion more than once but that doesn't mean he hasn't been damaged by far weaker forces,he could lift the infinity twice, he moved planets with the league but that doesn't mean he hasn't failed into lifting smaller objects on his own. The fact he has had problems into the core of the Earth in the current JL title means nothing,really, since he had dozen of better showings and he will have new ones with the time...both good and bad ones.

@earthmine5248 About the shadow moon Superman was already flying at close lightspeed so the fact that even the moon was moving toward our planet ads nothing to the feat imo. Then as for Superman smashing those planetoids inside the Golem's head the author stated that they weren't as big as planets: they probably were just as big as they look, more or less as big as buildings, that's why i haven't included such a feat

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deactivated-5ee9c4453cde7

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@toptom: Really? Well I guess Superman really doesn't have a planet busting feat. Oh well, could you at least add it for completion's sake though? BTW nice job, a lot of stuff here I haven't seen before.

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Knight101

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@heavenlydarkdragon: The feats don't cancel each other out. Just because Superman struggled in Earth's core where before he didn't have trouble before means nothing. I've seen Superman get knocked out by a gas station explosion (no joke), I've seen Superman struggle to lift 2 tons, then issues later he's easily lifting far more than that without breaking a sweat. For all of Superman's feats, he also has the ones no one hardly ever talks about. Every comic character, including Superman, has their inconsistent feats. Just because "Rebirth" Superman has some inconsistent feats with "Pre-Flashpoint" Superman doesn't mean their feats cancel each other out. If that's the case, then Superman getting knocked out by a gas station explosion then later surviving a black hole would cancel each other out. And frankly, that makes absolutely no sense at all since both feats happened to the same character. You have to accept the good feats with the bad ones because not every writer is going to be consistent with Superman's power levels.

As for Doomsday, I really don't see a problem here at all. Superman himself stated Doomsday was stronger and more savage. Plus, we also have to consider something else. Dan Jurgens created Doomsday and so when other writers came to write Superman, they dumbed down Doomsday, made Superman more powerful and turned Doomsday into a punching bag. I know this because Doomsday went from killing Superman, thrashing the entire JLA (twice and two different versions), to being easily handled by Superman. And now all of a sudden, Doomsday is a powerhouse like he should be. Superman SHOULD have major trouble beating Doomsday, Superman should only be able to win by BFR or outsmarting Doomsday with some kind of plot device but NEVER should Superman beat Doomsday ever again in a physical battle. Dan Jurgens treated that fight just as it should be.

Just because their "feats" don't seem to match, doesn't mean jack. Read Superman: Lois and Clark and Superman: Convergence. Read them carefully and you'll see this is, indeed, Pre-Flashpoint Superman. The history spoken of in those issues trumps the inconsistent feats you seem to have a problem with. I advise you to read those issues I mentioned because they prove "Rebirth" Superman and "Pre-Flashpoint" Superman are one and the same.

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MercinWithAMouth

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Looks fantastic so far. Keep it up.

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MercinWithAMouth

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#19  Edited By MercinWithAMouth

@lvenger: @heavenlydarkdragon: I've asked Hitch about his Superman being weaker. First he seemed a bit defensive about it, saying the Superman office seemed okay with it. Then he ended up saying "There may be story reasons that play into a longer game. I can't give that stuff away to answer your questions. sorry."

Just saw you guys talking about it and thought I'd toss this in there.

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Lvenger

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#20  Edited By Lvenger

@mercinwithamouth: I was planning to ask him that myself. So now he's saying there's an in story reason for why Superman is weak at the core of the Earth? I didn't expect that, I thought he'd just ignore your query and just say Superman needed to be weak at the core of the Earth for his story. If you'd mind, can I see some of those tweets you made to Hitch? You can block out your username before hand if you don't want to reveal your real name.

EDIT: NVM, I found your Twitter convo with Hitch on his Twitter feed, thanks for bringing it up here.

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toptom

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#21  Edited By toptom
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TRAVEL SPEED:

Deesad explains how Superman's flight might work
Deesad explains how Superman's flight might work

Superman goes to Andromeda without taking millennia
Superman goes to Andromeda without taking millennia
Flies from Vega to Earth in a short amount of time
Flies lightyears and saves an alien in a short amount of time
Travels to another star system in few instants
Flying to an alien world and returning to Earth in two different occasions. ( In the second example he could reach this planet in few minutes)
Multiple examples of Superman covering interstellar distances during the Infestation storyline
Taking Diana to the sun and returning to earth in less than a minute and 54 seconds
Taking Darkseid to the sun in few moments
Reaches New Krypton which was situated to the other side of the solar system
Flying to the sun and returning in less than a minute
Flying so fast that not even Lightray could keep up with him
Flying so fast that not even Lightray could keep up with him
Catching an enraged Supergirl
Easily catching a bullet that was fired from a great distance plus slipping some cotton into Lois's ears to protect her from the sonic boom
Superman wasn't at full power but he could quickly reach Lois Lane to the other side of the planet in about 4 seconds
Almost catching a bullet that was fired at a great distance. Here Superman was severely weakened by red sun radiation.
Stopping a futuristic projectile
Taking Redemption to the other side of the world in an instant
Taking Redemption to the other side of the world in an instant
Flying Batman from the Secret Sanctuary was ( a large cave deep inside of a mountain base in Happy Harbor,Rhode Island) to Gotham at reentry speeds
flying so fast that time slows down
flying so fast that time slows down
Probably flying at the speed of light
Probably flying at the speed of light
Escaping from a black hole in two occasions
Creating a vortex two miles deep
Flying from Rome to Metropolis in an instant
Flying from Everest to Metropilis in an instant
Appearing all over the usa during a single sentence
Appearing all over the usa during a single sentence

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toptom

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#22  Edited By toptom
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REFLEXES:

Intercepting and redirecting multiple kryptonite laser beams even if he was severely weakened.
Superman could track down multiple light speed signals (light travels exactly 29.9792458 centimeters in 1 nanosecond) inside the most advanched kryptonian warship he had ever seen./ Seeing and avoiding multiple kryptonite laser beams while weakened (then he gets caught by surpise and he is punched by the ship ,since he didn't know it could change form ,but in the next panel he avoids the next hit)
On the verge of death, Hal Jordan slows down the time in a fraction of nanosecond,but Clark was able to move and talk like nothing changed by speeding himself up to that fraction of time. This feat is from Action Comics Weekly # 642 ,it's a 1989 comic book, so we are 4 years into the Modern Age. Here Superman says "for some reason" because this was back before Hal or most of the Justice League knew that Clark Kent was Superman, he can't exactly say "I'm secretly Superman, so I'm not affected by the time dilation". There's nothing in the entire issue that suggests the ring decidedly to randomly select Superman for no reason and raise his speed up. The reason isn't unknown to Clark; he just doesn't want Hal and Deadman to know what that reason is because it would give away his secret identity.
Superman could speed up his reflexes to match the Barry Allen's ones so they could have a quite and long conversation while the surroundings seemed frozen in time.
Clark has carried Braniac's hybrid baby to the daily planet globe in about a nanosecond,despite the fact he could barely hold this powerful child. So Superman could fly a great distance,think and stop himself inside the fortress in that time frame while struggling to keep the baby who had enough power to destroy Metropolis as it was stated in The Adventures of Superman # 603.We see the baby releasing his energy on the surface of the globe but then we clearly see that the Daily Planet is perfectly intact meaning that the biggest part of the burst was probably contained by Superman and his fortress
Superman could see Barry Allen running faster than light next to him to avoid the Omega beams and the Black Racer
Superman could see Barry Allen running faster than light next to him to avoid the Omega beams and the Black Racer
Avoiding and intercepting the omega beams in two different occasions.
Redemption fired an energy blast toward some soldiers but Superman could disarm those men and stop the blast before it could reach them
Superman could analize,reach and destroy the engines of an alien ship which was moving at extra saturated light speed without difficulty
Even if weakened Superman could avoid different energy blasts while he was carring an huge entropy bomb
Intercepting the Firelord's blast
Intercepting the Firelord's blast
He could react to and move faster than the Entropy Aegis blasts in two different occasions.
Avoiding a laser beam from an Omac
Avoiding a laser beam from an Omac
Superman fired a blast of his own hv toward Deathstroke but he could remove him from the beam's path
Intercepting a blast of hv
Intercepting a blast of hv
Superman could outrace the Major Force's energy beam toward its target
Easily stopping a laser beam
Easily stopping a laser beam
Intercepting an energy blast from Ruin
Avoiding a laser beam
Avoiding a laser beam
Saving a mind controlled Lois Lane from an energy blast after it was fired
Reacts to Vorx laser weapons which used beta ray positrons that moved at near light speed. Even here he could intercept a beam after it was fired
Avoiding multiple Vorx laser beams
Intercepts heat vision from Preus.
Intercepts heat vision from Preus.
Blocks Conduit's energy blast after being weakened by kryptonite
Intercepts Dominus' energy blast with heat vision.
Intercepts Dominus' energy blast with heat vision.
Reacts to Wally Allen, a dream version of Flash, and avoids a mace.
Saves a little girl before a laser beam hits her by moving faster than the beam
Saves a little girl before a laser beam hits her by moving faster than the beam
Intercepts Coldcast's blast
Intercepts Coldcast's blast
Microsecond reaction time. A microsecond is an SI unit of time equal to one millionth of a second. One microsecond is to one second as one second is to 11.574 days.
Microsecond reaction time. A microsecond is an SI unit of time equal to one millionth of a second. One microsecond is to one second as one second is to 11.574 days.
Reacts in a millisecond to enter Brainiac's ship before the forcefield goes back up.
Reacts in a millisecond to enter Brainiac's ship before the forcefield goes back up.
Dodges energy blasts.
Perceives lightning in slow motion.
Perceives lightning in slow motion.
Reacts in time to save Jimmy from a lightning bolt.
Avoids a laser beam and throws a steel rod right before a lightning bolt strikes to dissipate ghosts/illusions.He had to perceive the lighting which was already flashing and timing his actions to the millisecond.
Reacting to Ruin's teleportation
Reacting to Ruin's teleportation
Avoids Orion's Astro Force blasts./Dodges Brainiac's energy beam.
Different examples of Superman catching or stopping advanced bullets: blocks a kryptonian bullet fired at point blank range,catches a bullet fired by Deadshot before it hits Lois and contains the explosion, catches 2 bullets that were changing their direction
Lois describes how Superman calculates his speed when moving on Earth and slows down to minimise sonic booms. Catches a bullet and puts cotton wool in Lois' ears to protect her from concussion.
Almost catches a bullet fired from across Metropolis despite being weakened by red sun radiation.
Dodges energy blasts/high calibre gun fire from Cyborg Superman even if he was severely ill at the moment
Catches and deflectes bullets whilst weakened by liquid kryptonite which also caused him to age
Catches and deflectes bullets whilst weakened by liquid kryptonite which also caused him to age
Different examples of Superman easily catching multiple bullets
Saving Lois from a bullet despite the fact he was far away
Saving Lois from a bullet despite the fact he was far away
Melts a bullet out of the air before it hits./ Catches two bullets and melts the third with heat vision.
Intercepts Booster Gold's energy blast. /Intercepts metahuman's energy beam.
Catches and contains an explosive device before it goes off.
Catches and contains an explosive device before it goes off.

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toptom

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#23  Edited By toptom
No Caption Provided

FIGHTING SPEED:

Punching and destroying the John Stewart's construct before Wally West could react
Punching and destroying the John Stewart's construct before Wally West could react
Superman managed to punch Doomsday 4.035 times in few instants.This was pre-52 doomsday who's speed was compared to the Flash but in Action Comics # 960 Doomsday was stated to be faster and more savage than before making this feat even more impressive.
Punching Doomsday at super speed again
Punching Doomsday at super speed again
Blitz an Imperiex Probe in two different occasion (in the last one Superman manages to destroy him)
Fighting against Mongul at super speed.
Defeating Ignition at super speed
Fighting Doomsday at super speed
Fighting Doomsday at super speed
Fighting using karate moves faster than the speed of sound
Superman kicking and punching his foes at super speed in multiple occasions ( in the second example he is punching Equus while he is analizing his whole body right down to his dna)
Easily evading Mongul's hits and moving so fast he leaves an after image
Punching at super speed (whilst weakened) an energy clone of new-52 Superman
Tagging professor Zoom
Tagging professor Zoom
Super-speed pression strikes on Ultraman
Super-speed pression strikes on Ultraman
Moves fast enough to negate the effects of time manipulation
Containing a nuke in two different occasions
Defeating Kalibak Steppenwolf and an enire army of parademons in seconds
Piercing an Imperiex probe
Piercing an Imperiex probe
Creating a vortex two miles deep
Changing Batman at mach 4
Moving across the battlefield in the space between two letters
Moving across the battlefield in the space between two letters
Creating a vortex in different occasions
Creating tornadoes. The last one was powerful enough to disturb powerful characters just like Captain Atom,Power Girl and Major Force
Putting the Metal Men inside a car and sealing it with his hv
Avoids an hit from a giant robot
Avoids an hit from a giant robot
Uses super-friction to create an electromagnetic field powerful enough to seal a temporal breach
Uses super-friction to create an electromagnetic field powerful enough to seal a temporal breach
Colors a colleague's shirt without anyone noticing
Colors a colleague's shirt without anyone noticing
Removing Ruin's armour at super speed
Removing Ruin's armour at super speed
Moving so fast he leaves an after image
Catching some debris and turning them into a weapon
BFRs Batman before he can react
BFRs Batman before he can react

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Zandalf

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#24  Edited By Zandalf
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There is this nice feat from Deathstroke # 7 where he moved this aricraft carrier apparently without breaking a sweat. It isn't really impressive for Superman but it's still cool and the art is phenomenal

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MightyKalEl

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#25  Edited By MightyKalEl
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Superman creating a huge hurricane in Superman #11 rebirth.

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Zandalf

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#26  Edited By Zandalf

Superman could bend some lead lined NTH metal with his bare hands and could cut it with his hv, plus here he is precisely emitting microwaves in order to successfully cure Lois from the Joker's virus: he could kill the virus without damaging her cells.

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buttersdaman000

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MightyKalEl

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@zandalf said:

Superman could bend some lead lined NTH metal with his bare hands and could cut it with his hv, plus here he is precisely emitting microwaves in order to successfully cure Lois from the Joker's virus: he could kill the virus without damaging her cells.

Where are these scans from?

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blackagar

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@buttersdaman000:

@zandalf said:

Superman could bend some lead lined NTH metal with his bare hands and could cut it with his hv, plus here he is precisely emitting microwaves in order to successfully cure Lois from the Joker's virus: he could kill the virus without damaging her cells.

Where are these scans from?

"New Talent Showcase" It's a bunch of short stories, not sure if you can consider them canon. It's from artists/writers/etc. Jim lee, new 52 batman writer crazy pants snyder and some other guy who trained people. It's pretty good imo.

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Zandalf

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#30  Edited By Zandalf

@blackagar said:

@buttersdaman000:

@mightykalel said:
@zandalf said:

Superman could bend some lead lined NTH metal with his bare hands and could cut it with his hv, plus here he is precisely emitting microwaves in order to successfully cure Lois from the Joker's virus: he could kill the virus without damaging her cells.

Where are these scans from?

"New Talent Showcase" It's a bunch of short stories, not sure if you can consider them canon. It's from artists/writers/etc. Jim lee, new 52 batman writer crazy pants snyder and some other guy who trained people. It's pretty good imo.

Yes i forgot to say that :/

...well, why not? I mean not only Superman here is wearing his new suit but Lois was poisoned by one of the 3 jokers that were mentioned during Rebirth #1

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#32  Edited By toptom
No Caption Provided

SPEED (running)

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No Caption Provided

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#33  Edited By toptom
No Caption Provided

SPEED (phasing/vibrating)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Caption Provided

SPEED (building,repairing)

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MightyKalEl

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@toptom: Welcome buddy. I will try to post scans if you want me to do.

In the second scan of speed department, where Superman and Flash are running towards a pyramid, how fast is Superman running? The scan has Flash saying he is near 186000 miles per second. Superman isn't much behind Flash, so both of them were running near light speed? I have seen people saying superman's top running speed is 2000 miles per hour. That is why I am asking, just to clarify.

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@mightykalel: yes, he is running almost at the speed of light. Saddly that's the only scan about i don't know the context , if anyone knows from what issue it comes from can he share this info?

However if you want (or everyone else) you can post feats regarding the next issues to come since i've saved all the relevat ones untill now and i'll post them sooner or later. I'd like to add the scan from Superman Annual # 1 though, the one in which it is told that he absorbs more energy from the sun than the previous superman, do you have it?

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MightyKalEl

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@toptom: I wanted to know whether there was any context behind that scene. It would be great if Clark could run near light speed.

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MightyKalEl

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#37  Edited By MightyKalEl

Superman vs Swamp Thing

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toptom

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#38  Edited By toptom
No Caption Provided

HEAT VISION (power):

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HEAT VISION (Accuracy):

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Excellent work mate, glad you're still continuing this.

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Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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@toptom: I will quote this thread forever!

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@lvenger said:

Excellent work mate, glad you're still continuing this.

@toptom: I will quote this thread forever!

Thanks guys

When i'll finish the hv section i will make other ones regarding: vision powers, cold breath, fighting skills, operational capability/ intellect , healing factor and weaknesses.

There are still Lots of scans.

@toptom:

If I can be totally blunt and honest here without being crucified for it. I believe you're making a mistake with this thread.

Here's the main reason why... Pre-Flashpoint Superman feats and Rebirth Superman feats cancel each other out.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that saw how Rebirth Superman struggled just to be inside Earth outercore. Well, pre-Flashpoint Superman would not have had that problem. He would've gone to the outercore and even the inner core without breaking a sweat. Rebirth Superman seemed like he was about to die.

Also the way he handled or better yet wasn't able to handle Doomsday. Pre-Flashpoint Superman faced Doomsday on numerous ocasions. The first-time he died fighting it. The next time he almost died again. But afterwards as the years went by, Superman began to seemingly grow stronger or at least better at handling Doomsday. Rebirth Superman not only wasn't able to defeat Doomsday he almost got himself killed in the fight at least two times. By sheer luck (writer plot device) didn't he joined New52 Superman in death.

Also there's the big elephant in the room at all times. Is Rebirth Superman, pre-Flashpoint Superman? So far there's been a lot of hints saying that he might not be him.

Probably you were right back then (not about the power levels) but if Rebirth Superman turns out to be some kind of blue Superman then his feats don't belong here anymore; i will simply remove the few impressive ones that he could achieve during this time.

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@toptom: If you need any vision power/superhuman senses feats let me know I've found a few that are respect thread worthy.

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@toptom said:
@lvenger said:

Excellent work mate, glad you're still continuing this.

@trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof said:

@toptom: I will quote this thread forever!

Thanks guys

When i'll finish the hv section i will make other ones regarding: vision powers, cold breath, fighting skills, operational capability/ intellect , healing factor and weaknesses.

There are still Lots of scans.

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@toptom:

If I can be totally blunt and honest here without being crucified for it. I believe you're making a mistake with this thread.

Here's the main reason why... Pre-Flashpoint Superman feats and Rebirth Superman feats cancel each other out.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that saw how Rebirth Superman struggled just to be inside Earth outercore. Well, pre-Flashpoint Superman would not have had that problem. He would've gone to the outercore and even the inner core without breaking a sweat. Rebirth Superman seemed like he was about to die.

Also the way he handled or better yet wasn't able to handle Doomsday. Pre-Flashpoint Superman faced Doomsday on numerous ocasions. The first-time he died fighting it. The next time he almost died again. But afterwards as the years went by, Superman began to seemingly grow stronger or at least better at handling Doomsday. Rebirth Superman not only wasn't able to defeat Doomsday he almost got himself killed in the fight at least two times. By sheer luck (writer plot device) didn't he joined New52 Superman in death.

Also there's the big elephant in the room at all times. Is Rebirth Superman, pre-Flashpoint Superman? So far there's been a lot of hints saying that he might not be him.

Probably you were right back then (not about the power levels) but if Rebirth Superman turns out to be some kind of blue Superman then his feats don't belong here anymore; i will simply remove the few impressive ones that he could achieve during this time.

What are the hints saying rebirth Superman might not be pre-Flashpoint Superman?

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#44  Edited By kenshima15

I don't know if Harley's Little Black Book is canon, but Supes did this in it.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Took Two city busting missiles to the face, and came out unharmed.

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#45  Edited By toptom

Guys i've found what could be one of the greatest pre-52 Superman's strength feats in "JLA 80-Page Giant #3 - The Century War II" released by DC Comics on October 1, 2000.

In JLA: The Century War, ancient alchemical engines were causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman and Green Lantern, initially together and then individually took turns holding the moon back against the "geometrically increasing force" that was causing it to fall. Superman got the last "moon-bracing" shift, so he had to overcome a greater force. We don't see Superman pushing the moon but it was stated twice that he was going to take over Kyle, and when we see Kyle with the league it's because Superman was holding back the moon instead of him at that moment.

In the same issue we got even this nice feat for Supes and Kyle:

They were essentially toying with the Centurion's space fleet: Superman was apparently single handedly throwing those huge ships at Kyle in order for him to hit them with a huge baseball bat construct.

@lvenger said:

@toptom: If you need any vision power/superhuman senses feats let me know I've found a few that are respect thread worthy.

yes, thanks mate, you can send me those scans in a private message

@mightykalel said:

What are the hints saying rebirth Superman might not be pre-Flashpoint Superman?

This could be speculation but there are voices that Rebirth superman could be the blue superman and that new-52 Superman was the red electric superman and that they will probably merge in March, you can see the solicits were both the Supermen are surrounded by a red and blue aura in the cover of AC # 976

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@toptom: PC Wally and pre-flashpoint Wally aren't merging, there may be some red and blue connection, but I highly doubt there will be any merging going on, New52 Superman is dead because he was unpopular and sold poorly, DC would be suicidal to do that. I can't even see in the solicits if nuperman is even resurrected or not, and that only appears on the cover for story purposes. So please let's try and put to rest all of this merging nonsense. @kenshima15: two missiles to the face nice

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@toptom said:

Guys i've found what could be one of the greatest pre-52 Superman's strength feats in "JLA 80-Page Giant #3 - The Century War II" released by DC Comics on October 1, 2000.

In JLA: The Century War, ancient alchemical engines were causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman and Green Lantern, initially together and then individually took turns holding the moon back against the "geometrically increasing force" that was causing it to fall. Superman got the last "moon-bracing" shift, so he had to overcome a greater force. We don't see Superman pushing the moon but it was stated twice that he was going to take over Kyle, and when we see Kyle with the league it's because Superman was holding back the moon instead of him at that moment.

In the same issue we got even this nice feat for Supes and Kyle:

They were essentially toying with the Centurion's space fleet: Superman was apparently single handedly throwing those huge ships at Kyle in order for him to hit them with a huge baseball bat construct.

This is great!

No Caption Provided

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@HeavenlyDarkDragon: I've been thinking about that as well, as there are some inconsistencies within the events of Convergence. (Wally from Convergence was wearing his costume pre Flash Rebirth and both his twins still had access to the Speed Force) However in the end I think that either the imposter is the New 52 Superman (I hope not) or that somehow they're one and the same.

As for His power levels, it could really just be due to the writer. Pre-Flashpoint Superman had many low showings in the last few years before N52 that contradicted his higher ones. The in universe explanation being either because of how he holds back consciously by calculating the force and speed of his blows and subconsciously through mental/psychological limiters that he broke with Mongul II's help during Our World's at War, powers fluctuating depending on solar energy he has, and like in one scan in the strength section (one next to Superman explaining to Supergirl why he's actually stronger than her) stress and emotions making him absorb/retain more solar energy.

Specific explanations for the feats themselves:

1. Doomsday- Superman mentioned how this Doomsday seemed to be stronger and smarter than before.

2. Earth's core- Lex once theorized that geothermal energy from the core can have the opposite effect of solar energy. This was proven true in Superman Unchained when Superman depowered himself and Wraith by fighting in the mantle. It's a feat that Superman retained his powers at all really.

It may be that the writer is simply writing Superman wrong, or at least not taking into account pre-Flashpoint feats and levels. It may be as simple as that, but if it's then one more reason for me to not read these comics and only focus on the reviews. Bad enough that the circumstances around Convergence being bad enough but having inconsistent power levels, that's too much to swallow. If it was only in one comic, then okay. But it's everywhere Superman appears.

As for Doomsday. If Rebirth Superman is actually weaker, then to him Doomsday would seem stronger, wouldn't he?

As for the Earth core thing that Snyder did. I honestly don't understand how people took him seriously. I mean, in the same comic he contradicts himself. After Wraith is defeated, Superman simply flies off. No power diminishing anywhere. Also during the Psi-War, Superman stated he had flied into the heart of the sun and return only slightly stronger for the experience. This directly contradicts Snyder. Even the black hole thing contradicts Snyder. Even the events of Camelot Falls contradict Snyder. In Camelot Falls when Arion shown Superman the impending wave of destruction, we see that Superman is defeated and thrown with such strength he breaks a huge chunk of the Earth crust and survives years being inside Earth's core. Again another thing contradicting Snyder. Snyder contradicted himself in the same comic, I would suspect that would be reason enough to not take that part of Unchained seriously.

But for whatever reason people have cling to what Snyder did.

Either way I'm still not convinced this Convergence/Rebirth Superman is the pre-Flashpoint version. If nothing else it's too many inconsistencies to swallow.

@lvenger said:

@heavenlydarkdragon: And if I can be totally blunt and honest, this isn't the thread where you can go off on your baseless and unsupported conspiracy theories about Rebirth Superman not being Pre Flashpoint Superman despite the evidence and Dan Jurgens contradicting your opinion. Based on all available information, this Superman is the same as the one from the previous continuity. You're looking way too deeply into the one line Mr Oz said about Superman not being who he thinks he is. Which isn't enough for even the wildest of personal theories to base an opinion on. Superman being affected by the Earth's core is WIS, writers always have inconsistent ideas about a character's power level. That's the simple reason why Superman was affected by the Earth's core, because Hitch wanted him to be for the sake of story. Please refrain from peddling an unsupported theory which has no credible basis to go off on a thread that has nothing to do with this topic.

One man quote isn't exactly proof is that's what you base the legitimacy of Rebirth Superman. I've seen time and time again people from the same publishers saying things that were directly contradicted by the work of others.

Just look at the New52. If that wasn't sabotage, from the writers themselves, at the highest level then nothing is.

I wouldn't even be mentioning any contradictions if it was one comic alone. But no. It's in all three. Action Comics, Superman and Justice League. I mean is it so hard to write a consistent character? Is it so hard to make the adjustment more easier. Anyone that read the pre-Flashpoint Superman skipped the New52 and is now reading Superman most be wondering if DC decided to lower Superman power levels.

Also it isn't unsubstantiated if the comics themselves are the proof. All I got to say to anyone is "Read pre-Flashpoint Superman comics. And then read Rebirth Superman stories. And then tell me they feel like the same character."

@heavenlydarkdragon: The feats don't cancel each other out. Just because Superman struggled in Earth's core where before he didn't have trouble before means nothing. I've seen Superman get knocked out by a gas station explosion (no joke), I've seen Superman struggle to lift 2 tons, then issues later he's easily lifting far more than that without breaking a sweat. For all of Superman's feats, he also has the ones no one hardly ever talks about. Every comic character, including Superman, has their inconsistent feats. Just because "Rebirth" Superman has some inconsistent feats with "Pre-Flashpoint" Superman doesn't mean their feats cancel each other out. If that's the case, then Superman getting knocked out by a gas station explosion then later surviving a black hole would cancel each other out. And frankly, that makes absolutely no sense at all since both feats happened to the same character. You have to accept the good feats with the bad ones because not every writer is going to be consistent with Superman's power levels.

As for Doomsday, I really don't see a problem here at all. Superman himself stated Doomsday was stronger and more savage. Plus, we also have to consider something else. Dan Jurgens created Doomsday and so when other writers came to write Superman, they dumbed down Doomsday, made Superman more powerful and turned Doomsday into a punching bag. I know this because Doomsday went from killing Superman, thrashing the entire JLA (twice and two different versions), to being easily handled by Superman. And now all of a sudden, Doomsday is a powerhouse like he should be. Superman SHOULD have major trouble beating Doomsday, Superman should only be able to win by BFR or outsmarting Doomsday with some kind of plot device but NEVER should Superman beat Doomsday ever again in a physical battle. Dan Jurgens treated that fight just as it should be.

Just because their "feats" don't seem to match, doesn't mean jack. Read Superman: Lois and Clark and Superman: Convergence. Read them carefully and you'll see this is, indeed, Pre-Flashpoint Superman. The history spoken of in those issues trumps the inconsistent feats you seem to have a problem with. I advise you to read those issues I mentioned because they prove "Rebirth" Superman and "Pre-Flashpoint" Superman are one and the same.

But on all three comics? Did they need to keep the inconsistencies on all three? One is bad enough, but three... Three in my eyes is delivered. They made him weaker. Simple as that. There may be story details down the line that may or may not explain this. Maybe there's a reason. Because I can't believe everyone in DC as developed a sudden case of alzheimer.

Also here's a different perspective. What if it isn't Doomsday that was stronger, but Superman that was weaker. How about that? After all if one grew weaker, then the opponent is thus stronger. And yes, Doomsday was definitely smarter. But only on a instinctive way. He knew how to use his environment to his advantage. If anything this Doomsday had the original power level, but the intelligence of his post death reincarnation. After he returned to life he showed this level of intelligence against Superman. So pre-Flashpoint Superman shouldn't be surprised either way.

I've read them then and unlike DC writers I'm not in alzheimer mode. Also they don't prove anything. But what it does is that while in pre-Flashpoint we might see inconsistencies in power levels or feats, from one comic to the other, because the teams were different. In Rebirth they have all consistently proven Superman is either weaker or every villain as grown stronger. Either way this Superman feat wise is nothing to be proud of.

Also how can anyone simply blindly follow what publishers gives out as information. Anyone knows they change minds more times than we'd like to. They do what they damn well please and to hell with consistency or the readers.

Make no mistake if the numbers start going down again, and they have been, DC will not think twice on pulling the plug on everything Rebirth and pre-Flashpoint related. That way placing both New52 and Rebirth supporters on the same boat. This is a numbers game, unfortunately. People at DC and other publishers don't give a damn about what you, me, or anyone wants or thinks.

Maybe. Just maybe, we'll eventually reach a point where the readers will have to step forward and become the writers. Making fan made comics. Maybe that way we'll get something worth reading.

@lvenger: @heavenlydarkdragon: I've asked Hitch about his Superman being weaker. First he seemed a bit defensive about it, saying the Superman office seemed okay with it. Then he ended up saying Just saw you guys talking about it and thought I'd toss this in there.

"There may be story reasons that play into a longer game. I can't give that stuff away to answer your questions. sorry."

Interesting... It was definitely enlightening.

Thank you for sharing this and for even bothering to ask the "source" about what's obvious is everyone's faces. But some simple don't care or if they do they don't speak up because they have their own reasons.

A friend of mine recently told me "Man why do you even bother? Let them believe whatever they want to believe. If DC drives them into a wall smashing hopes and dreams along the way. It wasn't your fault. It almost seems like you're trying to make people aware to not be too trusting. Let it be. No one is gonna thank you anyway if you're right. I personally simply dropped Superman as a whole. I don't read comics or watch the movies. I'm done waiting for what will never happen. Think of Superman and comics in general as being like Democracy or Equality. They're beautiful goals, awe inspiring, but at the end of the day, they're just that. Dreams that will never come true."

@toptom said:
@lvenger said:

Excellent work mate, glad you're still continuing this.

@trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof said:

@toptom: I will quote this thread forever!

Thanks guys

When i'll finish the hv section i will make other ones regarding: vision powers, cold breath, fighting skills, operational capability/ intellect , healing factor and weaknesses.

There are still Lots of scans.

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@toptom:

If I can be totally blunt and honest here without being crucified for it. I believe you're making a mistake with this thread.

Here's the main reason why... Pre-Flashpoint Superman feats and Rebirth Superman feats cancel each other out.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that saw how Rebirth Superman struggled just to be inside Earth outercore. Well, pre-Flashpoint Superman would not have had that problem. He would've gone to the outercore and even the inner core without breaking a sweat. Rebirth Superman seemed like he was about to die.

Also the way he handled or better yet wasn't able to handle Doomsday. Pre-Flashpoint Superman faced Doomsday on numerous ocasions. The first-time he died fighting it. The next time he almost died again. But afterwards as the years went by, Superman began to seemingly grow stronger or at least better at handling Doomsday. Rebirth Superman not only wasn't able to defeat Doomsday he almost got himself killed in the fight at least two times. By sheer luck (writer plot device) didn't he joined New52 Superman in death.

Also there's the big elephant in the room at all times. Is Rebirth Superman, pre-Flashpoint Superman? So far there's been a lot of hints saying that he might not be him.

Probably you were right back then (not about the power levels) but if Rebirth Superman turns out to be some kind of blue Superman then his feats don't belong here anymore; i will simply remove the few impressive ones that he could achieve during this time.

What are the hints saying rebirth Superman might not be pre-Flashpoint Superman?

Well were to start. I guess we should start at the beginning.

First of all Mr Oz words. People have downplayed them, some have even tried to use them to serve the legitimacy of Rebirth Superman and failed miserably. When we examine Oz words, think about what he's actually saying. He doesn't tell Clark White that he isn't where he thinks he is. Directly hinting that the New52 universe isn't real. No. He says, he isn't who he thinks he is. And we all know that Clark White thinks he's pre-Flashpoint Superman and thus he's displaced in both time and space. That he's on a universe that's not his own. We know this, but Oz directly puts a wrench on these ideas by saying, you're not who you think you are. Nor was this universe Superman.

Now, with this is mind I have all the legitimacy in the world to say, that the one that died was the pre-Flashpoint Superman. Yes. That New52 Superman was actually the pre-Flashpoint Superman but altered by Pandora's use of Barry power to unite the already broken timeline. And this Rebirth Superman is the real Superman of the New52 universe. But I'm not gonna say it, when I could say it. Even all that talk with Swamp Thing, about how Superman vibrational frequency was off. Well, if the real New52 Superman was removed from his timeline spending years on out of time, place, such a place would create such vibrational difference.

There's also the legitimacy of Convergence. By Convergence events then nothing is real or all is real. Even the Future's End timeline was represented there. And those events never came to pass. So in Convergence, you have one of two choices. You can believe that all of Brainiac domed cities were real and thus there is no real Superman. Or you can believe they were just copies of timelines that were and timelines that never came to be. Making them all fake.

Another thing I found interesting. Not sure if Johns was aware of this when he presented for the first time Mr Oz (when at the time we had no name) I found it interesting how enthusiastic he followed New52 Superman life. If you read the lines there was almost genuine care for that Superman, but compared to this Superman, he made onê appearance, but for the most part he seems more interested to see if he can use this Superman to his advantage. Now. From what we learned from Pandora and was even confirmed by Wally West, was that even before Flashpoint the timeline was already broken. And that someone made it broken to weaken each character in each timeline. Wally confirmed that Flashpoint happened not because of Barry's fault and that what had happened before was gonna happen again. From this we can assume one immediate thing. Both New52 and pre-Flashpoint timelines are not the real one.

Then we got those 4 giants that looked like Dr Manhattan versions. All speaking about stolen time, stolen powers. When Wonder Woman even went inside one of them, he constantly asked her if she was real. But in a way that it seemed like a rhetorical question and not really a question. That it knew she was not real, none of it is real. And that's when the Forever Crisis was mentioned. Now I could point out the clear discrepancies in pre-Flashpoint and Rebirth power levels but that's not even the most important. The giants for all intended purposes again confirmed what Pandora had said years ago, what Wally confirmed also. That somewhen, time itself was stolen. And that through each different version, those giants had tried to bring about the end of this violation of creation itself. And as we seen, they managed to finish their song. So for all intended purposes the Forever Crisis is coming, sooner or later.

Now. What this last part as to do with Rebirth Superman legitimacy? And the answer is simple. They basically said that Rebirth, New52, pre-Flashpoint, and for all we know the entire Modern Age, and maybe even Bronze Age and Silver Age Superman, were all fakes. That the real timeline as to be recovered and with it, people might as well get prepared for the sucker punch. And that DC will most likely reboot the whole thing, only this time, there won't be tie ins to any timeline. But a true fresh start from scratch. Or if you prefer a true Zero Hour.

So while most pre-Flashpoint fans see Rebirth as a return to the past. I see it as closure. DC is giving closure while at the same time seeing what works and what doesn't work.

So regardless of this Rebirth Superman true origins, we might very well see sooner than later, that it was a farewell gift. And that in the case of Superman. There won't be more Jon or Lois. But a total and complete hard drive disk cleanup.

A new DC for a new generation. One that doesn't has to learn 80 years of Superman history to understand where the character comes from and where it will go. And of course I'm referring to Superman but this would be a total clean up of every character. Which was what I was expecting of the New52 in the first place, but saw myself having to juggle old and new. Rebirth is doing the same, old and new. It will have to come a time when the old is placed aside. Important nonetheless because if we don't learn from the past we're doomed to repeat the same mistakes. But no longer relevant to how each character each story will develop.

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RedWhiteAndBlueSupes

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@heavenlydarkdragon: ..Wow... Your way overthinking this rebirth event dude,Johns makes it pretty damn clear in the rebirth one shot,he intends on bringing back( at least most) DC history,Superman/Wally remember infinite crisis, secret origins, as for his power levels well that's just comic writers, heck supes powers have been fluctuating since Infinite crisis or heck u could go back even further.

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RedWhiteAndBlueSupes

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@heavenlydarkdragon: I totally agree with your dceu statements,I'm just kind of burned out on crappy superhero movies,I need a break, just please WB,make it stop lol.said So while most pre-Flashpoint fans see Rebirth as a return to the past. I see it as closure. DC is giving closure while at the same time seeing what works and what doesn't work. That theory went out the window awhile ago, like seriously get 10 DC fans in a room and theres always this one guy who thinks the universe is about to crisis itself every two weeks, coie was a product of its time and its safe to say something like that will never happen again, esp. Since N52 failed to renvigerate DC. come over to my " the post rebirth multiverse" thread on the DC forum where we are discussing this in more depth