@HeavenlyDarkDragon: I've been thinking about that as well, as there are some inconsistencies within the events of Convergence. (Wally from Convergence was wearing his costume pre Flash Rebirth and both his twins still had access to the Speed Force) However in the end I think that either the imposter is the New 52 Superman (I hope not) or that somehow they're one and the same.
As for His power levels, it could really just be due to the writer. Pre-Flashpoint Superman had many low showings in the last few years before N52 that contradicted his higher ones. The in universe explanation being either because of how he holds back consciously by calculating the force and speed of his blows and subconsciously through mental/psychological limiters that he broke with Mongul II's help during Our World's at War, powers fluctuating depending on solar energy he has, and like in one scan in the strength section (one next to Superman explaining to Supergirl why he's actually stronger than her) stress and emotions making him absorb/retain more solar energy.
Specific explanations for the feats themselves:
1. Doomsday- Superman mentioned how this Doomsday seemed to be stronger and smarter than before.
2. Earth's core- Lex once theorized that geothermal energy from the core can have the opposite effect of solar energy. This was proven true in Superman Unchained when Superman depowered himself and Wraith by fighting in the mantle. It's a feat that Superman retained his powers at all really.
It may be that the writer is simply writing Superman wrong, or at least not taking into account pre-Flashpoint feats and levels. It may be as simple as that, but if it's then one more reason for me to not read these comics and only focus on the reviews. Bad enough that the circumstances around Convergence being bad enough but having inconsistent power levels, that's too much to swallow. If it was only in one comic, then okay. But it's everywhere Superman appears.
As for Doomsday. If Rebirth Superman is actually weaker, then to him Doomsday would seem stronger, wouldn't he?
As for the Earth core thing that Snyder did. I honestly don't understand how people took him seriously. I mean, in the same comic he contradicts himself. After Wraith is defeated, Superman simply flies off. No power diminishing anywhere. Also during the Psi-War, Superman stated he had flied into the heart of the sun and return only slightly stronger for the experience. This directly contradicts Snyder. Even the black hole thing contradicts Snyder. Even the events of Camelot Falls contradict Snyder. In Camelot Falls when Arion shown Superman the impending wave of destruction, we see that Superman is defeated and thrown with such strength he breaks a huge chunk of the Earth crust and survives years being inside Earth's core. Again another thing contradicting Snyder. Snyder contradicted himself in the same comic, I would suspect that would be reason enough to not take that part of Unchained seriously.
But for whatever reason people have cling to what Snyder did.
Either way I'm still not convinced this Convergence/Rebirth Superman is the pre-Flashpoint version. If nothing else it's too many inconsistencies to swallow.
@heavenlydarkdragon: And if I can be totally blunt and honest, this isn't the thread where you can go off on your baseless and unsupported conspiracy theories about Rebirth Superman not being Pre Flashpoint Superman despite the evidence and Dan Jurgens contradicting your opinion. Based on all available information, this Superman is the same as the one from the previous continuity. You're looking way too deeply into the one line Mr Oz said about Superman not being who he thinks he is. Which isn't enough for even the wildest of personal theories to base an opinion on. Superman being affected by the Earth's core is WIS, writers always have inconsistent ideas about a character's power level. That's the simple reason why Superman was affected by the Earth's core, because Hitch wanted him to be for the sake of story. Please refrain from peddling an unsupported theory which has no credible basis to go off on a thread that has nothing to do with this topic.
One man quote isn't exactly proof is that's what you base the legitimacy of Rebirth Superman. I've seen time and time again people from the same publishers saying things that were directly contradicted by the work of others.
Just look at the New52. If that wasn't sabotage, from the writers themselves, at the highest level then nothing is.
I wouldn't even be mentioning any contradictions if it was one comic alone. But no. It's in all three. Action Comics, Superman and Justice League. I mean is it so hard to write a consistent character? Is it so hard to make the adjustment more easier. Anyone that read the pre-Flashpoint Superman skipped the New52 and is now reading Superman most be wondering if DC decided to lower Superman power levels.
Also it isn't unsubstantiated if the comics themselves are the proof. All I got to say to anyone is "Read pre-Flashpoint Superman comics. And then read Rebirth Superman stories. And then tell me they feel like the same character."
@heavenlydarkdragon: The feats don't cancel each other out. Just because Superman struggled in Earth's core where before he didn't have trouble before means nothing. I've seen Superman get knocked out by a gas station explosion (no joke), I've seen Superman struggle to lift 2 tons, then issues later he's easily lifting far more than that without breaking a sweat. For all of Superman's feats, he also has the ones no one hardly ever talks about. Every comic character, including Superman, has their inconsistent feats. Just because "Rebirth" Superman has some inconsistent feats with "Pre-Flashpoint" Superman doesn't mean their feats cancel each other out. If that's the case, then Superman getting knocked out by a gas station explosion then later surviving a black hole would cancel each other out. And frankly, that makes absolutely no sense at all since both feats happened to the same character. You have to accept the good feats with the bad ones because not every writer is going to be consistent with Superman's power levels.
As for Doomsday, I really don't see a problem here at all. Superman himself stated Doomsday was stronger and more savage. Plus, we also have to consider something else. Dan Jurgens created Doomsday and so when other writers came to write Superman, they dumbed down Doomsday, made Superman more powerful and turned Doomsday into a punching bag. I know this because Doomsday went from killing Superman, thrashing the entire JLA (twice and two different versions), to being easily handled by Superman. And now all of a sudden, Doomsday is a powerhouse like he should be. Superman SHOULD have major trouble beating Doomsday, Superman should only be able to win by BFR or outsmarting Doomsday with some kind of plot device but NEVER should Superman beat Doomsday ever again in a physical battle. Dan Jurgens treated that fight just as it should be.
Just because their "feats" don't seem to match, doesn't mean jack. Read Superman: Lois and Clark and Superman: Convergence. Read them carefully and you'll see this is, indeed, Pre-Flashpoint Superman. The history spoken of in those issues trumps the inconsistent feats you seem to have a problem with. I advise you to read those issues I mentioned because they prove "Rebirth" Superman and "Pre-Flashpoint" Superman are one and the same.
But on all three comics? Did they need to keep the inconsistencies on all three? One is bad enough, but three... Three in my eyes is delivered. They made him weaker. Simple as that. There may be story details down the line that may or may not explain this. Maybe there's a reason. Because I can't believe everyone in DC as developed a sudden case of alzheimer.
Also here's a different perspective. What if it isn't Doomsday that was stronger, but Superman that was weaker. How about that? After all if one grew weaker, then the opponent is thus stronger. And yes, Doomsday was definitely smarter. But only on a instinctive way. He knew how to use his environment to his advantage. If anything this Doomsday had the original power level, but the intelligence of his post death reincarnation. After he returned to life he showed this level of intelligence against Superman. So pre-Flashpoint Superman shouldn't be surprised either way.
I've read them then and unlike DC writers I'm not in alzheimer mode. Also they don't prove anything. But what it does is that while in pre-Flashpoint we might see inconsistencies in power levels or feats, from one comic to the other, because the teams were different. In Rebirth they have all consistently proven Superman is either weaker or every villain as grown stronger. Either way this Superman feat wise is nothing to be proud of.
Also how can anyone simply blindly follow what publishers gives out as information. Anyone knows they change minds more times than we'd like to. They do what they damn well please and to hell with consistency or the readers.
Make no mistake if the numbers start going down again, and they have been, DC will not think twice on pulling the plug on everything Rebirth and pre-Flashpoint related. That way placing both New52 and Rebirth supporters on the same boat. This is a numbers game, unfortunately. People at DC and other publishers don't give a damn about what you, me, or anyone wants or thinks.
Maybe. Just maybe, we'll eventually reach a point where the readers will have to step forward and become the writers. Making fan made comics. Maybe that way we'll get something worth reading.
@lvenger: @heavenlydarkdragon: I've asked Hitch about his Superman being weaker. First he seemed a bit defensive about it, saying the Superman office seemed okay with it. Then he ended up saying Just saw you guys talking about it and thought I'd toss this in there.
"There may be story reasons that play into a longer game. I can't give that stuff away to answer your questions. sorry."
Interesting... It was definitely enlightening.
Thank you for sharing this and for even bothering to ask the "source" about what's obvious is everyone's faces. But some simple don't care or if they do they don't speak up because they have their own reasons.
A friend of mine recently told me "Man why do you even bother? Let them believe whatever they want to believe. If DC drives them into a wall smashing hopes and dreams along the way. It wasn't your fault. It almost seems like you're trying to make people aware to not be too trusting. Let it be. No one is gonna thank you anyway if you're right. I personally simply dropped Superman as a whole. I don't read comics or watch the movies. I'm done waiting for what will never happen. Think of Superman and comics in general as being like Democracy or Equality. They're beautiful goals, awe inspiring, but at the end of the day, they're just that. Dreams that will never come true."
@toptom said:
@lvenger said:
Excellent work mate, glad you're still continuing this.
Thanks guys
When i'll finish the hv section i will make other ones regarding: vision powers, cold breath, fighting skills, operational capability/ intellect , healing factor and weaknesses.
There are still Lots of scans.
@heavenlydarkdragon said:
@toptom:
If I can be totally blunt and honest here without being crucified for it. I believe you're making a mistake with this thread.
Here's the main reason why... Pre-Flashpoint Superman feats and Rebirth Superman feats cancel each other out.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that saw how Rebirth Superman struggled just to be inside Earth outercore. Well, pre-Flashpoint Superman would not have had that problem. He would've gone to the outercore and even the inner core without breaking a sweat. Rebirth Superman seemed like he was about to die.
Also the way he handled or better yet wasn't able to handle Doomsday. Pre-Flashpoint Superman faced Doomsday on numerous ocasions. The first-time he died fighting it. The next time he almost died again. But afterwards as the years went by, Superman began to seemingly grow stronger or at least better at handling Doomsday. Rebirth Superman not only wasn't able to defeat Doomsday he almost got himself killed in the fight at least two times. By sheer luck (writer plot device) didn't he joined New52 Superman in death.
Also there's the big elephant in the room at all times. Is Rebirth Superman, pre-Flashpoint Superman? So far there's been a lot of hints saying that he might not be him.
Probably you were right back then (not about the power levels) but if Rebirth Superman turns out to be some kind of blue Superman then his feats don't belong here anymore; i will simply remove the few impressive ones that he could achieve during this time.
What are the hints saying rebirth Superman might not be pre-Flashpoint Superman?
Well were to start. I guess we should start at the beginning.
First of all Mr Oz words. People have downplayed them, some have even tried to use them to serve the legitimacy of Rebirth Superman and failed miserably. When we examine Oz words, think about what he's actually saying. He doesn't tell Clark White that he isn't where he thinks he is. Directly hinting that the New52 universe isn't real. No. He says, he isn't who he thinks he is. And we all know that Clark White thinks he's pre-Flashpoint Superman and thus he's displaced in both time and space. That he's on a universe that's not his own. We know this, but Oz directly puts a wrench on these ideas by saying, you're not who you think you are. Nor was this universe Superman.
Now, with this is mind I have all the legitimacy in the world to say, that the one that died was the pre-Flashpoint Superman. Yes. That New52 Superman was actually the pre-Flashpoint Superman but altered by Pandora's use of Barry power to unite the already broken timeline. And this Rebirth Superman is the real Superman of the New52 universe. But I'm not gonna say it, when I could say it. Even all that talk with Swamp Thing, about how Superman vibrational frequency was off. Well, if the real New52 Superman was removed from his timeline spending years on out of time, place, such a place would create such vibrational difference.
There's also the legitimacy of Convergence. By Convergence events then nothing is real or all is real. Even the Future's End timeline was represented there. And those events never came to pass. So in Convergence, you have one of two choices. You can believe that all of Brainiac domed cities were real and thus there is no real Superman. Or you can believe they were just copies of timelines that were and timelines that never came to be. Making them all fake.
Another thing I found interesting. Not sure if Johns was aware of this when he presented for the first time Mr Oz (when at the time we had no name) I found it interesting how enthusiastic he followed New52 Superman life. If you read the lines there was almost genuine care for that Superman, but compared to this Superman, he made onê appearance, but for the most part he seems more interested to see if he can use this Superman to his advantage. Now. From what we learned from Pandora and was even confirmed by Wally West, was that even before Flashpoint the timeline was already broken. And that someone made it broken to weaken each character in each timeline. Wally confirmed that Flashpoint happened not because of Barry's fault and that what had happened before was gonna happen again. From this we can assume one immediate thing. Both New52 and pre-Flashpoint timelines are not the real one.
Then we got those 4 giants that looked like Dr Manhattan versions. All speaking about stolen time, stolen powers. When Wonder Woman even went inside one of them, he constantly asked her if she was real. But in a way that it seemed like a rhetorical question and not really a question. That it knew she was not real, none of it is real. And that's when the Forever Crisis was mentioned. Now I could point out the clear discrepancies in pre-Flashpoint and Rebirth power levels but that's not even the most important. The giants for all intended purposes again confirmed what Pandora had said years ago, what Wally confirmed also. That somewhen, time itself was stolen. And that through each different version, those giants had tried to bring about the end of this violation of creation itself. And as we seen, they managed to finish their song. So for all intended purposes the Forever Crisis is coming, sooner or later.
Now. What this last part as to do with Rebirth Superman legitimacy? And the answer is simple. They basically said that Rebirth, New52, pre-Flashpoint, and for all we know the entire Modern Age, and maybe even Bronze Age and Silver Age Superman, were all fakes. That the real timeline as to be recovered and with it, people might as well get prepared for the sucker punch. And that DC will most likely reboot the whole thing, only this time, there won't be tie ins to any timeline. But a true fresh start from scratch. Or if you prefer a true Zero Hour.
So while most pre-Flashpoint fans see Rebirth as a return to the past. I see it as closure. DC is giving closure while at the same time seeing what works and what doesn't work.
So regardless of this Rebirth Superman true origins, we might very well see sooner than later, that it was a farewell gift. And that in the case of Superman. There won't be more Jon or Lois. But a total and complete hard drive disk cleanup.
A new DC for a new generation. One that doesn't has to learn 80 years of Superman history to understand where the character comes from and where it will go. And of course I'm referring to Superman but this would be a total clean up of every character. Which was what I was expecting of the New52 in the first place, but saw myself having to juggle old and new. Rebirth is doing the same, old and new. It will have to come a time when the old is placed aside. Important nonetheless because if we don't learn from the past we're doomed to repeat the same mistakes. But no longer relevant to how each character each story will develop.
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