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#1 Edited by SuperMudz (243 posts) - - Show Bio

BATMAN/SUPERMAN #28

[Edited.]

Since I don’t see any really appropriate place to just comment about it, I’ll just do another one of these.

Now after my super-review of happiness, it’s time for something more critical in nature. But hopefully constructive. No rest for the wicked, man. Bear in mind, Mr. Person Who Reads This that this is stuff you can completely ignore for this immediate arc. But it’s justfood for thought to consider for futureness. Cross my heart, dude.

(This review is mostly just me having fun, with some opinions to fill it up – so take it with a pipe of Mary Poppins.)

REVIEW (with SPOILERS, so read the issue first, you bastards.)

This is extremely awesome.
This is extremely awesome.

Dear Mr. DC, let me start off by saying – COOL! #1wordreview

This issue is incredibly bad-ass and I loved it. But there’s basically just one thing about it that tripped me up, so the other 99.95% is basically going to be all about that – and it’s basically all about Batman. Just bear in mind I love the issue itself, otherwise.

BATMAN, COSMIC LEGEND!

Batman’s scowl is feared across the space-ways!
Batman’s scowl is feared across the space-ways!

Why the heck would Lobo (or Ms. Alien Space Giant for that matter – but I’ll let that pass for the reasons) know or care about Batman? How on Earth would Batman remotely be a problem here in any capacity?

World’s Greatest Detective. World’s. His experience and ability (gained on Earth) would have virtually no significance in a cosmic sphere. This is when Superman’s investigative skills, abilities and cosmic experience would shine.

You know, I would have KILLED if this was done in Commander Keen Galactic Alphabet.
You know, I would have KILLED if this was done in Commander Keen Galactic Alphabet.

Master Detective at work.
Master Detective at work.

This is the exact kind of story that could happen in a Superman title, adventures in the far beyond, where he gets to showcase something more than “flying object and words man” and push his mental machinery.

I said “super-power” just to be dramatic, not descriptive.

[Changed my mind. Totally worth it.]
[Changed my mind. Totally worth it.]

I’m a little upset that Batman got the awesome... space suit, too. >.>

I mean, it looks like you literally transferred Batman super-senses. And even better than Superman’s. What the hell, man? That’s not intuition, that’s straight magic. I mean, you could say “suit sensors” like it’s Chinese Whispers, but it really wouldn’t make a difference.

This was definitely a nice page though.
This was definitely a nice page though.

It might worked better, if Batman had deferred to Superman’s space-alien-knowledge more or something - and little details like that. [Come to think of it, the concept of this team-up adventure into outer space is really cool. I just would like Supes to have more intellectual co-operation with Bats.]

(And a note on characterisation, Superman is coming off a tad puppy-doggish. I could criticise Batman too, but he is what he is because of Superman, really.)

Essentially, how the fiddlesticks would Batman know anything about any alien physiology, let alone a completely unknown alien species? Just because it’s looks kind of dino-birdy on the surface means absolutely nothing at all. It's a giant unidentified interstellar alien who FTLs around in space!

But really, that's fine. I was just bothered that technologically advanced super-aliens would shrug off Superman but be worried that Batman can somehow track them by a destroyed remote camera across the infinite void of space, with his… bat-powers, I guess. [In other words, I'm having problems with suspension of disbelief with this. And simply dislike it in general, sentimentally.]

If it was less Legendary Space-Detective of the Universe and more Earth Detective finding some traction in a foreign environment, co-operating with Superman's experience, etc, being done here, it wouldn’t grill me as much. But as it is, I just see Batman staking out a piece of what could be really cool Superman Adventures In Space territory. And them's fighting words.

[Having thought about this more. This actually could be really cool if this was the beginning of a dynamic detective duo serial in outer space. I just want Superman to have the ability and agency to have his own personal cosmic detective adventures, without having some kind of dependency on Batman. But maybe it would be cool if we got more of this BM/SM thinking sci-fi adventures. Totally bro-bond in outer space.]

Beautiful, by the way. Full of mystique, and simply wondrous. This issue has so much of the things I wanted. You’re gonna make me choke up, man.
Beautiful, by the way. Full of mystique, and simply wondrous. This issue has so much of the things I wanted. You’re gonna make me choke up, man.

OFF-TOPIC

SUPERMAN:

For the record – I love the idea that kryptonians are the equivalent of super-giants. His powers were always explained as gravity + yellow sun. So that’s why Supes can go fist to fist with super-strong monsters that dwarf him. He’s super-strong multiplied by his natural massive compressed-giant physical stats. I’m pretty sure Heracles was supposed to be 4/5 metres in the myths, so Superman is the equivalent of twice that or some arbitrary “really big”, maybe?

Also, have you guys ever thought about giving Supes a shorter cape? GA Supes has a pretty short cape. Long capes really only work with noble shoulder-pads to frame them out, or if they drape over the shoulders, in my opinion. Otherwise they’re just tangly, draggy and awkward.

No Caption Provided
This art is legitimately the greatest thing I've seen since my mirror.
This art is legitimately the greatest thing I've seen since my mirror.

[These two pics are actually the coolest bits of Superman Cape Action I've ever seen. If they flew up like that every time he was pounding forward, it would be the most awesome crap ever! No really, it looks sweet as.]

On a random side-note, it would be awesome Superman sported rocket-jet wings in American Alien instead of (or as well as) a bat-cape. Would be so cool, and would actually make aerodynamic sense if his flight is still kind of limited and “airplane” in style.)

Also, I loved some of the space-suits he had in Post-Crisis (and his Pre-Crisis Iron Man Lead Suit). Would love to see more of those for Red Sun and anti-kryptonite deals. I figure that most of the reasons Superman would ever wear a suit for is the equivalent of scuba-diving astronauting, not actual protection. That’s when a long cape would look really cool, like Anti-Monitor in Darkseid War.

In fact, it would be really cool for him to have a mint space-suit he uses for Cosmic Detective work (which he could have totally used in this issue, and made the artist happy), with all the instruments, bells and whistles, communications etc, etc.

Also another idea. Teleporter gadget. Linked to his own Fortress weapon vault. So instead of wearing a utility belt or giant knap-sack or something, he just teleports pre-made gadgets or weapons into his hands (anything from cosmic screw-driver to Phantom Zone Projector to Mega Stun-laser Minigun to a 16 million ton giant hammer). His version of a Power Ring. (Could be built into his belt, so he whips them out cowboy style.) A personal energy-matter forge gadget would be the most bad-ass thing ever too.

I think this is truly excellent for reasons ranging from actually-useful and convenient tools in the field to full on Mask shenanigans.

Seriously, you can’t tell right now, but my woot levels just thinking about this are like, way up there.

WONDER WOMAN:

Also, thinking about WW. I really don’t think you guys need to fuss about indestructible armour in general. Just treat her like a Jedi. Sure, she could theoretically be hurt/killed (to whatever degree you think she should), but with her bracers, agility and training, it’s really nothing to worry about. Anything too much for her bullets and bracelets routine, she just Batmans out of the way of, or it’s an opportunity to fall into Trevor’s arms or whatever you like.

Also, you guys can get rid of the “pointy things” weakness, if you want to (assuming you didn't already). Just pick either “super(humanly)-durable” or “human”. Honestly, I think something more towards the latter is preferable, but I can't really make that call.

You can say she prefers agility to defense, or something, if she’s generally facing off against baddies and weapons who either aren’t much of a threat to her reflexes, or indestructible armour isn’t too helpful against (death rays!).

Basically I think she should generally just be rolling over Stormtroopers consequence free and just basically trolling baddies and evil scientists like Kim Possible.

Again, just my thoughts. At the end of the day, WW isn’t my beagle.

CONCLUSION:

No Caption Provided

To sum up. The issue is definitely cool, I am so happy for SPAAAAAACE for Supes in any comic… but Superman could be less intellectually dull.

I'm saying, I understand the point of it, just don't kill Superman's space agency, this is stuff I'd love to see Supes doing solo in his own comics, and the sight of him getting owned at his own territory is a little down-putting for a fan.

I mean, this scene would have been the best ever if Superman was hanging out with a mysterious hooded-and-cloaked cosmic Darlok Zeratul spy-guy from outer space - well, okay maybe not for this scene, but it's an awesome general idea so I'm saying it. (I’m changing my vote from “Philoctetes Space-Squire” to “Mysterious Cosmic Spy-Alien Guy”) I would love to see Superman playing Cosmic Detective some time, as well as interplanetary Shining Knight.

But I actually have a feeling, that with a tweaked characterisation of Supes and Bats, it wouldn’t have been a problem at all.

“Bat In My Ointment” aside, the story itself is already very intriguing. Walking with giants is the best.

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#2 Posted by SuperMudz (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@orangebat: Any opinions? You’re pretty much my evil Bat-opposite, so your perspective to counter me here would be almost as good as objectivity.

Any other opinions are also welcome, as long as they agree with me entirely.

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#3 Edited by OrangeBat (960 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermudz said:

@orangebat: Any opinions? You’re pretty much my evil Bat-opposite, so your perspective to counter me here would be almost as good as objectivity.

Any other opinions are also welcome, as long as they agree with me entirely.

Funny, I thought you were my chaotic Super-opposite. All I need now is some virtual roses to go with the call-out comment, and you'll be just like a clingy ex.

(Don't take it personally. I have an asshole sense of humor.)

I'm not really sure what to say, since I haven't picked up the issue yet, but judging from your protestations, I'd argue it's really no different to any other Batman/Superman comic. I don't really find it too objectionable, since it's usually either Superman or Batman that gets shafted in these stories. It's basically a staple by now, and I believe was even present in Pre-Crisis comics, although Batman got shafted more in those stories for the simple fact that Superman's OP nature made everyone obsolete. Also, Batman's never really been just a mortal man doing mortal man things...he started climbing the stairs of power way back when he fought the Mad Monk for the first time, and I'd argue (and Grant Morrison seems to somewhat agree) that him being a plain guy who can hang with gods is really just a logical conclusion of his character in a shared universe.

That being said, one idea that I've always liked that sorta explained this away is that Bruce Wayne was kind of born as an exceptional human being. His genetics are just so damn-good, that even as a child he'd been a damn prodigy at things like athletics, science and simple investigation. That, at least, partially, seems like it would help explain his, er, awesomeness.

Lobo knowing about Batman wasn't too weird. Dude's part of the Justice League, and has gone on his fair share of cosmic adventures, so I'd expect Lobo to be aware of what he can do, along with every other member of the Justice League. As for World's Greatest Detective - just take it to mean that he's Sherlock Holmes on super-steroids. Superman's the Last Son Of Krypton, except he's not, but most people understand that it means that he's the last true (male) heir to Krypton's legacy (Zod and company are psychos, and Kara's a girl. Superboy, well, he's only part-Kryptonian, and Kandorians...um, er...), and not that he's literally the only one left. Plus, Superman is not (unfortunately) a cosmic hero anymore, so I wouldn't expect him to be a super-expert on everything space-related, although I wouldn't expect Batman to be either, to be honest.

I do agree that Superman's intellect gets downplayed a little too much here, but I think I mentioned before that I find it less objectionable in crossovers, than where it's Superman's own supporting cast outshining him.

I think it's really a conflict of what a shared universe requires versus where a super-powerful Supes would fit. I want a competent and skilled Superman, but I realize his limitations in a shared universe. Plus, @supermudz, I like ya and all, but you seem to sorta be asking that everyone else just bow down so Superman can save the day, that no-one can be stronger, faster, more durable, smarter or whatever...but that's ridiculous. Superman was created as being strong and fast and durable (and later became super-smart), but that's it. He wasn't literally created to be the best. He earns it.

Anyway, I'm rambling here, and I don't know why, but here's my final point:

You wanna make Superman awesome, you can start by writing him more awesome in his own books. Stop having his own supporting cast and rank-and-file villains outshine him or make him look stupid. Once you achieve that, everything else will follow. I can promise that. It's the domino effect of superhero comics, it is.

EDIT: You know what, screw it, I'll just write a Superman fanfic one of these days, and you'll see how I want it to be.

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#4 Edited by SuperMudz (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@orangebat:

Funny, I thought you were my chaotic Super-opposite. All I need now is some virtual roses to go with the call-out comment, and you'll be just like a clingy ex.

Oh, please. This is more like pistols at dawn. And you got all hopeful.

Lobo knowing about Batman wasn't too weird. Dude's part of the Justice League, and has gone on his fair share of cosmic adventures, so I'd expect Lobo to be aware of what he can do, along with every other member of the Justice League. As for World's Greatest Detective - just take it to mean that he's Sherlock Holmes on super-steroids. Superman's the Last Son Of Krypton, except he's not, but most people understand that it means that he's the last true (male) heir to Krypton's legacy (Zod and company are psychos, and Kara's a girl. Superboy, well, he's only part-Kryptonian, and Kandorians...um, er...), and not that he's literally the only one left. Plus, Superman is not (unfortunately) a cosmic hero anymore, so I wouldn't expect him to be a super-expert on everything space-related, although I wouldn't expect Batman to be either, to be honest.

Cool. Accepted.

I think it's really a conflict of what a shared universe requires versus where a super-powerful Supes would fit. I want a competent and skilled Superman, but I realize his limitations in a shared universe. Plus, @supermudz, I like ya and all, but you seem to sorta be asking that everyone else just bow down so Superman can save the day, that no-one can be stronger, faster, more durable, smarter or whatever...but that's ridiculous. Superman was created as being strong and fast and durable (and later became super-smart), but that's it. He wasn't literally created to be the best. He earns it.

Nope, that's why I asked your opinion. You have an opposite (though naturally negligible) bias to me. It saves me shit-loads of effort.

(EDIT: And heck no, if I gave that impression, it's just because I'm not really thinking about it at all. I frankly don't care about the other heroes at all - they can save the day however often they like, so long as Superman and his adventures aren't being crippled for their sake.

But he was literally created to be the best at his particular shtick, so far as heroes are concerned - that was the whole point of him being super in the first place. Physical marvel, mental wonder - right from issue 1. It's Supes I don't want bowing down or being cannibalised for others in that way.)

Honestly, my concerns could be summed up with: Don't make Superman that useless. Batman is the master detective, who understands the kind of questions to ask, but Superman has experience (or at least he should - maybe he actually doesn't) and uh, spaceyness to give.

Clean conscience.

[EDIT: Oh, fine. I couldn't hold out on you like that.]

Now get outta here, you scamp.
Now get outta here, you scamp.

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#5 Posted by Jogga (1016 posts) - - Show Bio

Get a room you too.

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#6 Posted by PapiNacho (3396 posts) - - Show Bio

I kind of thought that was the point. Superman goes to Batman's turf and wrecks him at fighting his own villain; so Batman goes to Superman's turf and wrecks him at investigating his own cosmic problem. The only thing that really bothered me about the issue is that they made Bruce to much of an asshole. Lobo and the rest knowing about Batman does not bother me considering everything he has done. Hell unless Geoff Johns is writing them; the Legion of Super Heroes regards Batman as one the most important super heroes. Batman's legacy extends beyond time and space.

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#7 Posted by SuperMudz (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@papinacho:

You're probably right.

I actually don't have as much a problem with this whole thing as it probably sounds like. In fact I actually like the whole set-up Batman/Superman into space, and Lobo etc, and all that, and it grows on me more and more, and I loved the issue anyway. In fact, after thinking about it more, I can see this as a very enjoyable buddy-team mystery romp through space on a regular. But sometimes it takes a lot of words to articulate a minuscule but significant point about characterisation for the sake of fan-love.

Just to clear that up.

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#8 Edited by SuperMudz (243 posts) - - Show Bio

UPDATED

After getting feed-back and time to think about it, I've reconsidered ALL THE OPINIONS, and rephrased my thoughts on this.

Just to reiterate, if my review came across any way other than frivolous, speculative, and for constructive fan-reaction purposes, it's just because I was having a rash love affair with my keyboard and it got out of hand. My bad. It happens.

So, updated!