Marvel power levels are too low

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#1  Edited By lordzayphar

The classic image of a strong superhero is lifting a ship out of the water. Any high-end strength-based hero should be able to do this. This means that Marvel's levels are way too low.

For example, a Nimitz class aircraft carrier masses about 80,000 tons, a battleship masses about 50,000 tones, and even a small Coast Guard patrol cutter will mass over 3,000 tons! This would mean that even an enraged Hulk could not pick up a small patrol boat! That is not even taking into account modern cargo ships and oil tankers which often mass over 200,000 tons.

This is not even taking into account the mass of space ships or aircraft. A small space ship like the US space shuttle (not including booster rocket) masses over 2,000 tons. A large cargo/passenger aircraft like the old 747 masses 190 tons stripped down and maxes at 430 tons with a full load. This means that Hyperion or even Thor might not be able to lift a 747. That is just too weird to imagine.

These Marvel power class numbers are off by at least a factor of 200.
Post Edited:2007-11-24 02:08:48

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#2  Edited By Gloom

You sound very smart. =)

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BuckshotWasHere

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#3  Edited By BuckshotWasHere  Moderator

Gotta say I think your viewpoint is interesting. Most people say DC is too strong, but you're going the opposite route, I like that. On topic though, I don't think they're too low. Most of the guys you mentioned (if not all) are class 100, which means they can lift over 100 tons, so they may be able to heft the things you listed even if they're much heavier than 100 tons where the Marvel scales stop. And also, I don't think they need to lift huge things (ok, maybe some do, like Hulk and other pure strength guys) for me to be entertained.

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#4  Edited By Valkaad

I tend to disagree with you. I don't think anyone other than cosmic level entities should be lifting thousands of tons, and even then I would only give the upper echelon cosmics that level of strength . A person's skeletal structure and connective tissue (not to mention the stress on their cardiovascular system) would have to be extremely tough to even support 25 tons without "cracking". Humans, even ones with powers (mutants, people bathed in chemicals, radioactive accident, etc.) are still bascially carbon based life forms that (in my opinion) should not be able to withstand thousands of tons pressing down on them. 50,000 pounds (spidermans current strength level) is an enormous amount of weight to lift overhead! His muscle/bone/connective tissue would have to be so resilient that he would be bullet proof. Having someone that can support thousands of tons (or in supermans case MILLIONS) just gets into a realm that to me, even in comics, is just not believable.

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lordzayphar

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#5  Edited By lordzayphar

I'm not sure that physiological considerations really come into it when talking about comic book superheroes, except for low-end characters within a factor of 2 of normal human strength.

In any case I am not really talking about the medium or low end strength characters. For example, if you imagine a standard main battle tank (about 60 tons), then the list of who can lift a medium mass object like a tank seems OK.

But once you get to the class 100 and above the rate of progression is way too shallow. Instead of 125/250/500 it should be more like 1,000/100,000/1,000,000 tons. I mean really, think about it -- the class 500 types like Thanos, Gladiator, Hulk or Silver Surfer can't lift a patrol boat, or the US space shuttle? That just does not work for me.
Post Edited:2007-11-24 02:09:34

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#6  Edited By Methos

blink blink

ok, book marking this thread to read once it's not 7am...

M

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#7  Edited By Eternal Chaos

Interesting

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#8  Edited By the creator

lordzayphar says:

"The classic image of a strong superhero is lifting a ship out of the water. Any high-end strength-based hero should be able to do this. This means that Marvel's levels are way too low. For example, a Nimitz class aircraft carrier masses about 80,000 tons, a battleship masses about 50,000 tones, and even a small Coast Guard patrol cutter will mass over 3,000 tons! This would mean that even an enraged Hulk could not pick up a small patrol boat! That is not even taking into account modern cargo ships and oil tankers which often mass over 200,000 tons. This is not even taking into account the mass of space ships or aircraft. A small space ship like the US space shuttle (not including booster rocket) masses over 2,000 tons. A large cargo/passenger aircraft like the old 747 masses 190 tons stripped down and maxes at 430 tons with a full load. This means that Hyperion or even Thor might not be able to lift a 747. That is just too weird to imagine. These Marvel power class numbers are off by at least a factor of 200.
Post Edited:2007-11-24 02:08:48"

There have been many examples of Marvel characters lifting objects that weight in the thousands / tens of thousands of tonnes ranges.

I mentioned this a while ago in the thread,

http://www.comicvine.com/message/strength-levels-of-higher-end-marvel-characters/242866/&postId=242866#post242866

"Strength Levels of Marvel Characters This has been a hotly debated topic in many battle threads and postings. We have the official published Marvel figures that typically have most characters ranging from normal human strength to being able to lift up to 100 tonnes. There are many notable characters that exceed this 100 tonne threshold. However, hundreds of published occasions have shown characters perform actions that are well beyond a ‘100 tonnes’ limit. As mentioned, there are far too many occasions to name in full but here are some examples that briefly detail the action, the character and their strength level according to a later version of the published Official Marvel Handbooks. Sasquatch (70 tonnes) lifting up one end of a destroyer out of the water it was floating on. A loaded destroyer weights in at roughly 20,000 – 60,000 tonnes, although Sentry (over 100 tonnes) struggling to slow a falling helicarrier. The helicarrier would appear to be similar in size and weight to a destroyer (so between 20,000 – 60,000 tonnes again). Gladiator (over 100 tonnes) lifting the Baxter Building. The building should weight in between 60,000 – 100,000 tonnes. I use this example even though Reed Richards theorised that Gladiator was having his strength boosted by Sh’iar technology because this strength level seems to gel with others on this list. Hulk (reasonably enraged – functionally calm 85 tonnes, at this level of anger, well over 100 tonnes) rupturing a 6 inch thick plate of carbon steel with a single punch. Through calculation, based on the strength of standard tempered medium carbon steel, and the size of the Hulk’s fists contact area being very large, he would require strength in excess of 100,000 tonnes, to deliver the needed tonnage to rupture the plate. - Many other characters have performed similar destructive feats. Thor (more than 100 tonnes) lifting the tail of the Midgard Serpent. He appeared to be lifting at least a 300 feet length of the tail, that was approx 50 feet in diameter. The weight of the tail (based on a nominal 1g/cm cubed figure) would be roughly 17,000 tonnes. As with many other Asgardian beings, this figure could be 2 – 3 times greater as the density of the flesh of these beings is 2 – 3 times higher. Thor (more than 100 tonnes) lifting and throwing the Odin sword. The sword is at least 300 feet long. Using nominal dimensions and basing the material used on normal mild steel, the weight of the sword would be roughly 35,000 tonnes. To meaningfully throw it as well would require strength greater than 80,000 tonnes. As you see, the published figures fall far short of the depicted events. However, the use of the official ratings can be used to provide some guidance and relationship between the various strength levels of the characters. For instance, Thor (lift over 100 tonnes – but lets say 110 tonnes) being perhaps 30% stronger than the Thing (lift 85 tonnes). Do these strength levels fit in better with the powerhouses ? "

So it would simply appear that Marvels scale for strength banding is poor, jumping from lifting 100 tonnes, to immeasurable in 1 easy step.

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#9  Edited By Eradicator

Hulk supported the weight of a mountain that weighed 150 Billion tons, Hulk has also held continents together. Thor has lifted the Serpent Midgard's body which is half the circumference of the Earth. Anyone who read issue 5 of World War Hulk and saw when he was stomping and affecting the Earths atmosphere and other states could see that 100 tons is a silly rating. Hercules lifted and hurled a starship. Hell, even Sasquatch has lifted a destroyer! They just need to update in rating scale because it does seem very inaccurate.

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Eradicator says:

"Hulk supported the weight of a mountain that weighed 150 Billion tons, Hulk has also held continents together. Thor has lifted the Serpent Midgard's body which is half the circumference of the Earth. Anyone who read issue 5 of World War Hulk and saw when he was stomping and affecting the Earths atmosphere and other states could see that 100 tons is a silly rating. Hercules lifted and hurled a starship. Hell, even Sasquatch has lifted a destroyer! They just need to update in rating scale because it does seem very inaccurate. "

Good point. I think marvels official ratings are stupid. They say 100 plus for some characters who can lift thousands. Its like 100 is some magical rule for marvel not to rate past besides putting a plus over it. I guess its to keep you guessing or something of that nature

maybe they do this when we have spiderman who can lift 25 tons and Hulk who could lift 100 plus. If we put hulks real rating lets say its the same as supermans 2500 then it would make spiderman look very bad. Its just a theory it may not be the real reason

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#11  Edited By Forever

Great thread. While Buckshot doesnt need to see anyone lift that much weight to enjoy the story, Creator rightfully brings up that many characters have been shown to lift weights along the level that you are mentioning and Valkaad is worried about the physical structure of the individual lifting the weight, I'm worried about the thing being lifted itself. To put that much strain on such a small fulcrum (only where the character's hands touch) would seem to be too much for the structure lifted. Maybe a space ship made with exotic materials to withstand intense pressure from gravity wells, but even a battleship or aircraft carrier would probably crack if you tried to support it's weight on so small a portion of it.

I have no problem with them lifting that much weight, only with what they lift to display that strength.

Heart of Infinity says:

"Good point. I think marvels official ratings are stupid. They say 100 plus for some characters who can lift thousands. Its like 100 is some magical rule for marvel not to rate past besides putting a plus over it. I guess its to keep you guessing or something of that naturemaybe they do this when we have spiderman who can lift 25 tons and Hulk who could lift 100 plus. If we put hulks real rating lets say its the same as supermans 2500 then it would make spiderman look very bad. Its just a theory it may not be the real reason"

Think of it another way. Marvel is writing this up as if someone has been studying these characters and measuring their abilities. Some group, perhaps S.H.I.E.L.D. tests the characters whenever they can. How much weight do you think they have on their military press? 100,000 tons? 200 quintillion? It makes much more sense that the cutoff would be some reasonable weight and in this way the writers dont paint themselves into a corner when they want a character who has been listed to be able to lift 50,000 tons to lift a 100,000 ton helicarrier. Besides this is also what DC does in the way that they dont actually list an amount that their characters can lift.

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#12  Edited By The_Ghostshell

Forever says:

"Great thread. While Buckshot doesnt need to see anyone lift that much weight to enjoy the story, Creator rightfully brings up that many characters have been shown to lift weights along the level that you are mentioning and Valkaad is worried about the physical structure of the individual lifting the weight, I'm worried about the thing being lifted itself. To put that much strain on such a small fulcrum (only where the character's hands touch) would seem to be too much for the structure lifted. Maybe a space ship made with exotic materials to withstand intense pressure from gravity wells, but even a battleship or aircraft carrier would probably crack if you tried to support it's weight on so small a portion of it.I have no problem with them lifting that much weight, only with what they lift to display that strength.Heart of Infinity says:
"Good point. I think marvels official ratings are stupid. They say 100 plus for some characters who can lift thousands. Its like 100 is some magical rule for marvel not to rate past besides putting a plus over it. I guess its to keep you guessing or something of that naturemaybe they do this when we have spiderman who can lift 25 tons and Hulk who could lift 100 plus. If we put hulks real rating lets say its the same as supermans 2500 then it would make spiderman look very bad. Its just a theory it may not be the real reason"

Think of it another way. Marvel is writing this up as if someone has been studying these characters and measuring their abilities. Some group, perhaps S.H.I.E.L.D. tests the characters whenever they can. How much weight do you think they have on their military press? 100,000 tons? 200 quintillion? It makes much more sense that the cutoff would be some reasonable weight and in this way the writers dont paint themselves into a corner when they want a character who has been listed to be able to lift 50,000 tons to lift a 100,000 ton helicarrier. Besides this is also what DC does in the way that they dont actually list an amount that their characters can lift."

Great post.

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Gambler says:

"Forever says:
"Great thread. While Buckshot doesnt need to see anyone lift that much weight to enjoy the story, Creator rightfully brings up that many characters have been shown to lift weights along the level that you are mentioning and Valkaad is worried about the physical structure of the individual lifting the weight, I'm worried about the thing being lifted itself. To put that much strain on such a small fulcrum (only where the character's hands touch) would seem to be too much for the structure lifted. Maybe a space ship made with exotic materials to withstand intense pressure from gravity wells, but even a battleship or aircraft carrier would probably crack if you tried to support it's weight on so small a portion of it. I have no problem with them lifting that much weight, only with what they lift to display that strength. Heart of Infinity says:
"Good point. I think marvels official ratings are stupid. They say 100 plus for some characters who can lift thousands. Its like 100 is some magical rule for marvel not to rate past besides putting a plus over it. I guess its to keep you guessing or something of that nature maybe they do this when we have spiderman who can lift 25 tons and Hulk who could lift 100 plus. If we put hulks real rating lets say its the same as supermans 2500 then it would make spiderman look very bad. Its just a theory it may not be the real reason"
Think of it another way. Marvel is writing this up as if someone has been studying these characters and measuring their abilities. Some group, perhaps S.H.I.E.L.D. tests the characters whenever they can. How much weight do you think they have on their military press? 100,000 tons? 200 quintillion? It makes much more sense that the cutoff would be some reasonable weight and in this way the writers dont paint themselves into a corner when they want a character who has been listed to be able to lift 50,000 tons to lift a 100,000 ton helicarrier. Besides this is also what DC does in the way that they dont actually list an amount that their characters can lift."
Great post."

agreed I liked his explination of the writers not painting themselves into a corner. It seems to make sense

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#14  Edited By Apparition

wow great thread.

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#15  Edited By Sling Shot

Wow! neat comments!:)

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#16  Edited By Apparition

lol making fun of me again sling?

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#17  Edited By Apparition

lol ok sling. very funny.

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#18  Edited By Sling Shot

Whatever would make you say that? ;)

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#19  Edited By Eternal Chaos

Sling Shot says:

"Wow! neat comments!:) "

LoL.

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#20  Edited By badamanbreezy

Actually a US Shuttle system including booster rockets is about 2000 tons and the orbiter itself ( "the spaceship") is about 68 tons stripped down 109 tons max. take off weight and 104 max, landing weight, so i think u need 2 chek ur figures agen buddy.

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#21  Edited By AssertingValor
Valkaad said:
"

I tend to disagree with you. I don't think anyone other than cosmic level entities should be lifting thousands of tons, and even then I would only give the upper echelon cosmics that level of strength . A person's skeletal structure and connective tissue (not to mention the stress on their cardiovascular system) would have to be extremely tough to even support 25 tons without "cracking". Humans, even ones with powers (mutants, people bathed in chemicals, radioactive accident, etc.) are still bascially carbon based life forms that (in my opinion) should not be able to withstand thousands of tons pressing down on them. 50,000 pounds (spidermans current strength level) is an enormous amount of weight to lift overhead! His muscle/bone/connective tissue would have to be so resilient that he would be bullet proof. Having someone that can support thousands of tons (or in supermans case MILLIONS) just gets into a realm that to me, even in comics, is just not believable.

"
 Dude, they are superhumans!!!
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#22  Edited By Vrakmul

Geometery makes it impossible to lift most objects that have a mass of more than 1,000 tons unless you aren't much smaller than it.   You could have infinite strength, you still wouldn't be able to lift a continent, you would rip out chunks, not the whole thing.

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#23  Edited By Erik

Hmmmm..... Very interesting take on the matter.

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#24  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator

Marvel's Power levels=Outlandish

DC Power levels=OMG WTF YOU CANT DO THAT!
Marvel's Power Levels compared to DC's=reasonable
DC's power levels compared to Marvels=OVER 9000
Wildstorm's Power Levels=OVERLOAD! REALITY BROKEN BY RIDICULOUS POWERS
Wildstorm's Power levels compared to DC & Marvel=Broken scouter...


Marvel isn't underpowered..DC and Wildstorm just have ridiculously high power levels.
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#25  Edited By Vrakmul

You don't say "weight" when it comes to pounds, tons, kilograms and whatnot.  Weight is gravity's affect on you, Mass is how much stuff there is.  Weight is meaningless in this context.  Only mass matters.  

In space, a weightless cube with a mass of 50 tons is still going to squash you flat due to it's mass.

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#26  Edited By hotjazz

Good posts, interesting thread. Someone said that they think that only cosmic level entities should be able to lift thousands of tonnes because it would be too unbeleivable for superhumans to do this, but as many have stated logically  their feats suggest without a doubt that they do lift, punch, and push things far in excess of a thousand  tonnes. I mean what is remotley beleivable in comics when you get beyond spiderman. Thats why we like them, to escape reality for a minute. I'm new to this but i agree i think the marvel strength rating system is very ambigious. for a start  most sites you go to for characters profiles say something different. for eg some sights will say earth 616 or whatever hyperion can lift 75 tonnes, another will say class 100 whatever that means, and another will say he has physical abilities virtualy the same as superman. now there is so much room for interpretation there that i couldn't begin to contemplate.Then the question is which superman are they refering to ,lets say it's the new earth superman now his strength on different sites ranges from 100000 tonnes to 800000 tones to small planatery bodies which would be billions of tonnes- very clear. so with this information we can surmise that earth 616 hyperion can lift somewhere between 75 tonnes and a small planetary body. this makes you well armed with prescise information to dive into an online debate about who is the strongest and better fighter thor or hyperion. Now on this very site in the strenth level section it says that thor (normal) has a  strength level of class 125 meaning he can lift at least 125 tonnes but less than 250 tonnes. Now when you think of all the endless internet debates over who would win a battle between thor and superman. arguably your talking about a being (a god)? who can lift 250 tonnes at best battling an alien being who optomisticly can lift 800000 tonnes or more. Now if these stats are true, there is not a lot of room for debate .This superman would be lucky to notice if this thor punched him in the face. The math are 800000 divided by 250 which means this superman would be 3200 times stronger than this thor. i'm no mathmation but you hardly need to be. now imagine yourself fighting something 3200 times physicaly weaker than you. Who would win? it would be like wrestling a mouse or an ant. now either the marvel strength rating system is desperately next to useless or thor and for that matter most of the marvel superheroes are not even worth a second of superman's time. I myself think it is more the former, due to their feats. (and hands) ha ha!  Then you get other debates saying that Kurse was made twice as strong as thor and then twice again so he is now over four times as strong so he'd be able to rip supermans head off. lets do the math again. thor at best = 250 tonnes so lets say Kurse is now  5 times as strong wow = 1250 tonnes  now superman=800000  superman is still 640 times as strong. would he notice an attack from Kurse? maby hard to say. you see where there rating system falls down- it's useless ( like how long is a piece of string)
Here's another sinario -  you see debates where they say now that she hulk has had an upgrade of strength she could murder immortal hercules now lets say she hulk use to be around 100 tonnes of strength ( being optomistic) say now she is double that. Now hercules as the full olympian god of strength is commonly regarded as being as strong as thor if not more, so lets say thor is in superman's realm of strength tacking supermans lower stated strength level of 100000 tonnes. with these stats in this fight hercules would be 500 times stronger than shehulk. you see what i mean to rate guys like thor and hercules as class 100 being able to lift over 100 tonnes tells you virtually absolutley nothing. it's like you asking how tall I am and I tell you i'm class 1 which means i'm somewhere over 1 foot  tall.  
(the short and tall of it is, the marvel strength rating system is very very limited)  - perhaps that's the way they want it?  

changing the subject i love hercules's profile on this site, not only has the greek god of strength, lion of olympus, prince of power got his full godhood, immortality back but he is also 7ft tall like he was in mythology and can amp up his strength at will. Maby he is finally getting the respect he is due. People seem to forget his strength should be practicaly limitless he is the (GOD of STRENGTH) He can control and probably bestow strength.I hope this profile is cannon. Bravo!

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#27  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
Vance Astro said:
"Marvel's Power levels=Outlandish
DC Power levels=OMG WTF YOU CANT DO THAT!
Marvel's Power Levels compared to DC's=reasonable
DC's power levels compared to Marvels=OVER 9000
Wildstorm's Power Levels=OVERLOAD! REALITY BROKEN BY RIDICULOUS POWERS
Wildstorm's Power levels compared to DC & Marvel=Broken scouter...


Marvel isn't underpowered..DC and Wildstorm just have ridiculously high power levels.
"
This wins.
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#28  Edited By Majestic_Lizard
@lordzayphar:

Marvel's power levels are just misunderstood. They take into consideration the fact that even if a person was strong enough to lift a large structure, the integrity of that structure would likely be compromised if a person with super strength tried to lifted it. Instead of lifting the battle ship, you would just push a whole through it. Only in DC comics do characters lift things that should actually fall apart if being lifted by one point on the structure of the object. DC comics disregards physics entirely.
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#29  Edited By albanmanson
@Vance Astro said:
" Vance Astro said:
"Marvel's Power levels=Outlandish
DC Power levels=OMG WTF YOU CANT DO THAT!
Marvel's Power Levels compared to DC's=reasonable
DC's power levels compared to Marvels=OVER 9000
Wildstorm's Power Levels=OVERLOAD! REALITY BROKEN BY RIDICULOUS POWERS
Wildstorm's Power levels compared to DC & Marvel=Broken scouter...


Marvel isn't underpowered..DC and Wildstorm just have ridiculously high power levels.
"
This wins. "

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#30  Edited By BatDance

and then you got Herc
 

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#31  Edited By Thor's hammmer

agreed this scale has characters like thor classed at 250 tons when he lifted the world serpeant which would have to way trillions and trillion of tons  
 
they need a bigger scale

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#32  Edited By Magian

That is Marvel's mistake.Instead of class 1-100, they should have find another measuring system.
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#33  Edited By InnerVenom123
@Vance Astro said:
" Marvel's Power levels=Outlandish
DC Power levels=OMG WTF YOU CANT DO THAT!
Marvel's Power Levels compared to DC's=reasonable
DC's power levels compared to Marvels=OVER 9000
Wildstorm's Power Levels=OVERLOAD! REALITY BROKEN BY RIDICULOUS POWERS
Wildstorm's Power levels compared to DC & Marvel=Broken scouter...


Marvel isn't underpowered..DC and Wildstorm just have ridiculously high power levels.
"
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#34  Edited By Omega Ray Jay

Prehaps the molecular structures of metals and other materials are not as dense in the Marvel Universe, just a thought.
 

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#35  Edited By LT1085
@Vance Astro said:

" Vance Astro said:

"Marvel's Power levels=Outlandish
DC Power levels=OMG WTF YOU CANT DO THAT!
Marvel's Power Levels compared to DC's=reasonable
DC's power levels compared to Marvels=OVER 9000
Wildstorm's Power Levels=OVERLOAD! REALITY BROKEN BY RIDICULOUS POWERS
Wildstorm's Power levels compared to DC & Marvel=Broken scouter...


Marvel isn't underpowered..DC and Wildstorm just have ridiculously high power levels.
"
This wins. "
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Magian

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#36  Edited By Magian
@Majestic_Lizard:
But I do remember Gladiator lifting Fantastic four's HQ.
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PowerHerc

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#37  Edited By PowerHerc
@hotjazz:
Good post.  I especially agree with what you wrote about Hercules being able to amp his strength.  Of course he should be able to do this; he is the God of Strength! 
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Thor's hammmer

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#38  Edited By Thor's hammmer
@PowerHerc: 
 
I wouldn't object to that
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kareem

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#39  Edited By kareem

that's the one thing I liked about Superman, they explained how he was able to lift such gigantic and heavy structures without them breaking apart in his hands.

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PowerHerc

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#40  Edited By PowerHerc

Still hasn't happened.

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CosmicCommonSense

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Goddammit people you cannot apply real life to comic books its a different universe look at secret wars vol 4 the hulk help up a 150 billion ton mountain and that was banner hulk meaning one of the weaker versions world war hulk could more than likely knock around anyone who got in his way oh wait he did that so yeah whatever hulk forever :D

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ThanosOmega

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Perhaps they mean Kilotons and/or Megatons, for some characters. This would explain why the power ratings are so varied. But I agree that they are far too skewed.

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JeredMcCorkle

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Why would this completely subjective system of strength ranking warrant a page all its own? It's pretty clear this is based on the arbitrary judgment of a few fans. There are clear and in some cases flagrant inconsistencies, and this certainly doesn't reflect Marvels official ranking system. For instance there have been dozens of direct comparisons between Hercules and Thor and exactly zero indication that Hercules is of a higher strength level. And how did they in certain cases determine the difference between characters who can lift 100 vs 125 tons? You might as well have a wiki page of the hierarchy of "the best characters." It would be as official or objective.