ENOUGH IS ENOUGH: Jean Grey Fans vs Storm Fans...the FINAL SHOWDOWN

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Koays

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For over a year the Jean Grey and Storm fandoms have been at eachothers throats worse then ever before.

We have seen DOZENS of threads hijacked or derailed.

A hundred petty arguments and nit picks.

And the loss of credibility among fans of both characters.

I AM TIRED OF THE SHIT!

So let's just do this

Jean Grey vs Storm CaV

-3 post for each character (unless both sides agree on a different number)

- Both sides choose up to 3 posters from their side to make the arguments for their team. NO ONE ELSE CAN POST

- 1 Storm fan and 1 Jean fan will find 5 voters that they both agree are impartial. NO ONE ELSE CAN VOTE.

- Everyone who is assisting in post or wants to be apart of it must be named so that no one can claim they werent apart of it.

- a Judge will be chosen to call out or dismiss anything that the otherside might claim is wank.

- To avoid chaos, a leader will be chosen by both sides to keep their people in line and disgust points or rule changes

- The first Post will be done NO later then 1/25/20.....this gives us enough time to get everything together AND to honor the death of the first casualty of this beef the Late @Jhazzroucher.....may he rest in...rest.

The losing team is BANNED from any of its members posting in the Jean Gret vs Storm thread made by @Onisipin

@Team Jean- @Koays@Geekryan@Pyrofn@marvelfan1992@martinceld@elpendejo@lordofallhumans

@Team Storm-

@Mooty_pass@butterflykyss@stormcell@kasya_carey@waitomegastorm@weatherwitch21

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WaitOmegaStorm

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#2 WaitOmegaStorm  Online

is this really necessary?

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Koays

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@waitomegastorm: Well we can always go back to stupid name calling and rebumping the same 1300 post thread just so we can comment "I'm not a stupidhead! Your a stupidhead!"

OR

We can do something that might not only bring conclusion to SOME of the arguments....and might actually be a little fun.

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WaitOmegaStorm

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#4 WaitOmegaStorm  Online

@koays: honestly i just see another war starting.

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Koays

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@waitomegastorm: We are literally in the middle of a war right now.

People are literally loading ammo as I type.

Here its quick, quiet and simple.

You dont get to argue if it's not your turn. You dont get to make a post that everyone else on your side knows is wrong but wont correct.

It's simple and the only way it fails is if one side is too "pressed" to follow the rules.

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cattlebattle

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I see Koays has been day drinking again.

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Koays

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@cattlebattle: Lol all fun and games till I nominate you as a judge

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cattlebattle

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@koays said:

@cattlebattle: Lol all fun and games till I nominate you as a judge

Easy. Jean fans win on account of not being absolute crazy people.

"StOrM Is dA GoDdDEss BecAusE sOMe RandOm WriTer WhO wRotE lIkE 5 ComiCs SaId so On HIs SocIal MeDia"

*gif of black woman sipping tea"

HUgS' n KisSes, hOnEY!!!

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Koays

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@cattlebattle: This....is really gonna hurt my argument for you being a judge

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Son Of Storm

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@koays said:

@cattlebattle: This....is really gonna hurt my argument for you being a judge

Can't imagine why....

@koays said:

@cattlebattle: Lol all fun and games till I nominate you as a judge

Easy. Jean fans win on account of not being absolute crazy people.

"StOrM Is dA GoDdDEss BecAusE sOMe RandOm WriTer WhO wRotE lIkE 5 ComiCs SaId so On HIs SocIal MeDia"

*gif of black woman sipping tea"

HUgS' n KisSes, hOnEY!!!

And this one post is exactly why any attempt at a debate is utterly pointless when it comes to Storm on this site. It doesn't matter what any writer does to her character/powers it's simply mocked like a clown. And btw it wasn't just one writer. Her divinity has been accepted by several writers across several books and even MU characters themselves. But please continue.

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cattlebattle

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@koays said:

@cattlebattle: This....is really gonna hurt my argument for you being a judge

Bummer.

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Koays

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@son_of_storm: smh this is what bothers me so much about Storm fans.

No one cares about her being a Goddess or not.

Cattle's being cheeky but that is literally a reenactment of one of Kyss' rants.

You cant complain about your image when your publicist is a lunatic.

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Stormcell

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@koays said:

@cattlebattle: This....is really gonna hurt my argument for you being a judge

Can't imagine why....

@cattlebattle said:
@koays said:

@cattlebattle: Lol all fun and games till I nominate you as a judge

Easy. Jean fans win on account of not being absolute crazy people.

"StOrM Is dA GoDdDEss BecAusE sOMe RandOm WriTer WhO wRotE lIkE 5 ComiCs SaId so On HIs SocIal MeDia"

*gif of black woman sipping tea"

HUgS' n KisSes, hOnEY!!!

And this one post is exactly why any attempt at a debate is utterly pointless when it comes to Storm on this site. It doesn't matter what any writer does to her character/powers it's simply mocked like a clown. And btw it wasn't just one writer. Her divinity has been accepted by several writers across several books and even MU characters themselves. But please continue.

Not to mention, even without the Hadari Yao stuff, there's just too much Storm has accomplished in her history for Jean to overcome if both characters are given their due. For instance, the moment Storm's mental defenses were proven to be more than a match for the likes of Classic Shadow King, Bogan-Rachel, Warskrull, etc, it's game over for Jean affecting her telepathically without the element of surprise to catch Ororo with her mental defenses down, or PIS to weaken Storm. Of course, the other side will only come up with scans that portray Storm weaker to try and argue for Jean.

In other words, as you said, it's not a fair debate since the other side will never give Storm her due.

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WaitOmegaStorm

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I mean, I think we all know that some people on both sides won't give in so it's really useless.

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Koays

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@waitomegastorm: Who? I need to hear you say the words.

Say who they are.

Free yourself from the sunken place.

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WaitOmegaStorm

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#16  Edited By WaitOmegaStorm  Online

@koays: Duh, you all know about Stormcell and Kyss's opinion about Jean as well as we realize some things about telepath fans like Geek and Lord.

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Koays

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@waitomegastorm: Doesnt it feel much better to say it out outloud.

I mean Geek is more angry at the moment and shouldn't be judged by that...

But to purge yourself of those dark ties.....

Release you inhibitions....

Feel the rain on your skin!

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WaitOmegaStorm

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@koays said:

@waitomegastorm: Doesnt it feel much better to say it out outloud.

@koays: Duh, you all know about Stormcell and Kyss's opinion about Jean as well as we realize some things about telepath fans like Geek and Lord.

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Malachi_Munroe

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Koays .. this is not how I wanted to spend the last friday of the decade.

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Koays

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#20  Edited By Koays

@malachi_munroe: I did what I had to do.

In the name of all that is good and X-Men....I did what needed to be done

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Malachi_Munroe

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@koays: Yer sleeping on the couch tonight!

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RabumAlal

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Didn’t even notice this happening tbh. Also Jean > Storm.

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Koays

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Malachi_Munroe

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@koays: thats what you THINK is the truth 😌

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lazarus4tempest

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not a storm fan........but STORM wins

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MagneticStorm

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Storm

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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WE ALL WON

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THUNDERBOLT30

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@koays said:

@cattlebattle: This....is really gonna hurt my argument for you being a judge

Can't imagine why....

@cattlebattle said:
@koays said:

@cattlebattle: Lol all fun and games till I nominate you as a judge

Easy. Jean fans win on account of not being absolute crazy people.

"StOrM Is dA GoDdDEss BecAusE sOMe RandOm WriTer WhO wRotE lIkE 5 ComiCs SaId so On HIs SocIal MeDia"

*gif of black woman sipping tea"

HUgS' n KisSes, hOnEY!!!

And this one post is exactly why any attempt at a debate is utterly pointless when it comes to Storm on this site. It doesn't matter what any writer does to her character/powers it's simply mocked like a clown. And btw it wasn't just one writer. Her divinity has been accepted by several writers across several books and even MU characters themselves. But please continue.

Quoted for truth. They can stay pressed. They lucky I don't write for X-Men. Just to avoid the endless arguments over who is more powerful blah blah blah I'd just dampen both Storm's and Jean's powers, lock them in a force field arena and eat popcorn while Storm kicks the shit of Jean.

@koays I used to expect better of you. Now... you just seem pathetically pressed as f%$K!

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Koays

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@thunderbolt30: Going to maintain my usual composure on this one....

So tell me what's pressed about this?

I offered a CaV challenge between 2 sides who have been arguing like children for over a year...one that would end or at least put a halt to the tension for a while

I offered a chance at a fun and unique type of debate where both parties would work with like minded people to form the best arguments.

I offered a chance to make this as fair and civil as possible by letting both sides choose the rules, voters and representatives.

I even gave a list of things this would be a better alternative to including the nonsense derailing of threads, bans and circle jerk arguments.

But I'm pressed?

An hour after I posted this Lordofall humans, Stormcell, Cruelrain and Butterflykyss got banned.

But I'm pressed.

Not a single Storm fan accepted or even considered the idea and the best response I got was tantamount to saying "It wont work because everyone hates us".

But I'm pressed.

Understand something the only thing i was "pathetically pressed" about was the fact that a battle I posted got turned into a 7 page argument about Jean fans and Storm fans.. while Butterflykyss ran around on 3 battles shouting about Jean wank and so on. This accompanied by the fact that Stormcell once again went on a long winded rant about how he hates Jean because he thinks the drawing is stealing the spotlight from the other drawing.

But clearly I'm the more pressed one.

You have people arguing for a year across every X-Men battle writing essays to eachother about lowballing, feats and wanking and you guys would rather whine and keep going then do something different?

Including Jhazz and maybe Weatherwitch 6 PEOPLE caught a ban in a year across both sides So Thunderbolt get the f$%k over yourself and get your people in line and stay off of my back for trying to help.

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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@koays said:

@thunderbolt30: Going to maintain my usual composure on this one....

So tell me what's pressed about this?

I offered a CaV challenge between 2 sides who have been arguing like children for over a year...one that would end or at least put a halt to the tension for a while

I offered a chance at a fun and unique type of debate where both parties would work with like minded people to form the best arguments.

I offered a chance to make this as fair and civil as possible by letting both sides choose the rules, voters and representatives.

I even gave a list of things this would be a better alternative to including the nonsense derailing of threads, bans and circle jerk arguments.

But I'm pressed?

An hour after I posted this Lordofall humans, Stormcell, Cruelrain and Butterflykyss got banned.

But I'm pressed.

Not a single Storm fan accepted or even considered the idea and the best response I got was tantamount to saying "It wont work because everyone hates us".

But I'm pressed.

Understand something the only thing i was "pathetically pressed" about was the fact that a battle I posted got turned into a 7 page argument about Jean fans and Storm fans.. while Butterflykyss ran around on 3 battles shouting about Jean wank and so on. This accompanied by the fact that Stormcell once again went on a long winded rant about how he hates Jean because he thinks the drawing is stealing the spotlight from the other drawing.

But clearly I'm the more pressed one.

You have people arguing for a year across every X-Men battle writing essays to eachother about lowballing, feats and wanking and you guys would rather whine and keep going then do something different?

Including Jhazz and maybe Weatherwitch 6 PEOPLE caught a ban in a year across both sides So Thunderbolt get the f$%k over yourself and get your people in line and stay off of my back for trying to help.

ew you sound pressed honey

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#31  Edited By THUNDERBOLT30

@koays: Keep your composure, lose your composure...I’ll put you at ease by:

1. Making it clear I Honestly don’t a s$&@ about how you (or anyone on CV to be frank) feel about Storm or her fans lol, so by all means lose your composure while imagining someone laughing and then moving on to the next topic. If they have you so pressed about a battle thread, clearly enough to make a dumba$$ bait thread in Storm’s fan forum then that’s your problem/emotional struggle that no one on this forum cares about. *shrugs*

2. Stevie Wonder can see you are damn near a panini You’re so pressed. With all of the bait threads I’ve seen for Storm I don’t see Storm fans going to Jean’s dead a$$ forums for a CaV because ultimately - most of us could give 2 f#%&s about Jean and have been in enough of those same “debates” to know how this ends. If you guys think she could beat Storm then thats you. There are good Storm debaters who can argue why they think Storm would beat Jean. I don’t see how agreeing to disagree is that hard. The funny thing is this is the only site I’ve frequented where this type of issue perpetuates.

3. These are fictional characters that clearly you are a little too invested because you have to come to Storm’s fan forum to issue a bait and is part of your “therapy” that clearly no one cares about. I’m here to discuss Storm with her fans....not work through pressed Jean fans’ issues with Storm or members of her fan base.

4. If you were looking to “fix” the Jean/Storm fan tension on this site (you’re not the first) a PM discussion between the fans you think could help build bridges/mend fences, talk through/analyze feats, etc. could have worked better.

People are people And as long as they can be respectful and tactful to me I will be the same, even if I disagree with them. I literally lol’d when you posted that “I need to get my people in line”....like you are some authority to Be respected on this site lol. Or a credible voice of reason since you resorted to this “well thought out solution” (yes, I did air quotes) lol. Now you need to get the f$&@ over yourself.

This is a chat forum where opinions can be shared (even if I think they are mistaken, flawed, clearly wanking, not credible for debates, etc) but none of us have the right or the responsibility to make people see things the way we do.

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Koays

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@thunderbolt30: Lmao all of a sudden it's fictional characters that I'm over invested in when I make a thread to debate them in....but when your flying out your seat to defend them from "bait" its fine.

Yea no, miss me with the insecure fanboy crap.

1- Clearly you didn't know what you were talking about when you came at me because that reasoning is absolutely stupid.

I make a thread to discuss the thing we're already discussing.....somehow means...I'm upset and pressed about it.

If that was the case then why would I have offered to debate???

2- Like I said, you clearly don't know what's going on. So let me hold your hand threw this....

Stormcell has been perpetuating this "rivalry" for a year now.

He literally attacked a bunch of "Jean fans" and dragged us into this Storm forum because he forgot to untag us from some rant he was quoting....that dumb shit ended with Jhazz getting banned.

He's been doing this for A YEAR on threads that have NOTHING to do with Storm and turning them into Jean rants.

Jean vs emma Rachel/Rachel jeen jean vs nova exodus candra/Jean vs Onslaught/Jean vs exodus/Omega level mutants strongest to weakest/Hickman’s omegas/Jean vs Apocalypse/New Omegas vs Old Omegas...etc...etc...etc

That would be fine and they'd be written off as trolls. But it got to the point where Kasya, Waitomega and Cruelrain were having the exact same arguments with less facts and more name calling over Jean and Storm.

Kyss and Stormcell went on a tirade the other night across 4 threads at once. And when I finally asked Stormcell why he had gone out of his way for 10 YEARS (nearly twice that under other names) to dismiss and lowball a character across the internet....he basically gave me a answer that amounted to "Jean Grey stole my lunch money so I'm attacking her fans".

So i offered this thread as a way of solving the problem and redirecting them all off of my threads....but instead of accepting the challenge or considering it they ignored the tags and went off an got themselves and 2 others banned the same night for ranting in circles.

3- I don't know what is wrong with this fanbase that you all are so insecure.

It's a drawing....but if I say lets have a healthy debate about it, your losing your mind at the very idea that I would post the challenge.

It's a drawing....but you want to spend your time talking about it with other fans of the drawing...

It's a drawing....and yet your so triggered that you can't even just ignore the thread.

Like really what is wrong with you guys that you all are so sensitive???

If you don't wanna take part in the thread.....then don't comment in the thread?

What's so hard?

4- Look miss me with your enlightened fanboy nonsense. We're not gonna play the "freedom of speech and expression for individuals card" while whining because YOU don't want to see MY post on the Storm board.

"Get your people in line" Means don't come at me for making a thread inviting people to debate....but then run back into the abyss the moment 4 Storm fans derail a thread to the point it gets locked. If your not apart of it, then don't be apart of it. But don't complain to me because I feel like anyone who wants it to stop should be telling people to stop.

Now as for the intentions of this thread- I'll spell it out.

I wanted a debate between both sides. I wanted it to be fun, fair, and different.

I knew individuals wouldnt except on their own, so i made it a group effort for both fandoms.

I posted it on the Storm boards BECAUSE I WANTED STORM FANS TO SEE IT.

There's no ill will involved. There's no bait or trap involved.

And there should be nothing triggering for you or this fandom about a battle challenge where you can pick the RULES & THE VOTERS.

- Believe me, on a regular day, I can give less then a frick about Storm. You can't find one post I've made negatively about her. Others here can vouch for the fact that I've reached out to stop the nonsense before and even tried to back people off of restarting the beef since the bans..... I've done this on both sides. So before you come off your hiatus telling me how pressed I am, take a moment to find out what's going on, and why its going on and then get the F&$K OVER YOURSELF.

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Mooty_Pass

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#33  Edited By Mooty_Pass

I didn't even see this thread.

Anyway for the sake of SANITY and arguing Storm AND Jean should be banned from Battle threads. Clearly, nobody knows how to act right let alone KNOW WHEN to LET THINGS GO(I want that to sink in)....

These Two Characters must be banned to avoid unnecessary fights and name calling etc..

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CrimsonFoxFire

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@koays: I admire what you are trying to do and it's confusing me tbh because I love Storm and Jean and defend them from haters to no end. Though there is a issue I see here you had no issue with the calling out of Storms psycho fans but geeks gets a pass somehow? Why because hes angry? Too bad everyone should be criticized in their part in the beef

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^^Yikes....^^^

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CrimsonFoxFire

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@koays: the problem is also you and others seem to take whatever fans you run into and put it on all

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CrimsonFoxFire

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Mooty_Pass

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@crimsonfoxfire: I'm just being an instigator that's all don't mind me.

:-)

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@crimsonfoxfire: Nah, the Geek-Kasya-Waitomega situation was dealt with separately. They had an issue in a couple of threads and it was turning into personal attacks. It was for the most part out of character for Geekryan....the guy is one of the most active CaV debaters and doesnt take things personally usually. That was squashed but there was still tension so it was OOC.

As for putting everyone together....nah. It really boiled down to 2 users.

While those 2 were Storm fans, it was clear from either side that they were the aggressors and that their beef had nothing to do with anyone currently on the site and had more to do with their own made up personal issues that had no basis in fact-

1) Jean Grey was stealing focus from Storm

2) Jean Grey fans/Marvel had changed the narrative on Jean's powers

3) People on CV didn't want to accept Storm was a Goddess

They used that motivation to derail a years worth of X-Men threads half of which didn't involve Jean Grey or Storm.

Storm fans have been and are in a awkward situation on Vine, so a handful jumped to her defense when Storm feats and credibility became a victim of the back and fourth....but I can say they were never the agitators. In fact a major issue I took the day I made this thread was one of the problem Users basically hid behind the Storm fans debating the point in order to drag out the beef.

Kasya, Geek, WaitOmega & Lord may have been the ones going at it by the end....but I wouldn't fault any of them with the way things had gotten because I know the entire beef was dragged out by 2 people with a weird decades long obsession for a drawing they don't like.

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Stormcell

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#40  Edited By Stormcell

@koays:

1) Maybe you should try telling the truth about the double-standards that exist between the fandoms on this site. Why don't you talk about how other fandoms act in Storm threads and how they ignore all the canon that establishes the character to be more powerful than their favorites? It's a rigged system, and maybe some Storm fans simply point holes in the favorites of other fandoms to highlight not only why Storm is superior, but also the hypocrisy in their positions. Besides, at least Storm actually does the feats I reference without other characters having to be devalued to prop her up. The same isn't true for Jean and her fanbase. With Jean, it's PIS everyone around to prop her up and even make up feats she never did.

2) The issues I point out with Jean are rooted in factual canon. And you can try and argue that these characters are merely drawings on the page, but you post much more frequently on here than I do. If you total of the number of posts you and I have both made within the last year, yours will be several times mine meaning you invest a lot more time and energy in these so-called "drawings on the page" than I do. Heck, just compare the post totals between us within the last few weeks and you'd see the same result.

3) As a fan who has invested a lot of time and money over the years into comics, yes, it is disappointing for Marvel to mess everything up so that I even stopped caring about the books. While I remain a fan of certain characters (Storm, Emma, Sage, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Colossus, Selene, and Shadow King), I no longer consider myself an X-Men fan.

4) Regarding my disappointment with Marvel in the treatment of the characters, let's face it--Claremont's original X-Men run from the 80s continues to hold the record for being the highest selling comicbook run in all of history. During this time, Storm was the heart and soul of the book with Wolverine as her right-hand man. Considering the hobby is a white male dominated medium, and the time in history when this was true was far less "woke" than today's times, only goes to show how much the readership likes Ororo when well-written. If Storm were well-written in today's woke society, the X-Men sales would top even what they were in the 80s, but Marvel dropped the ball. Chances are, even if Marvel created a Storm solo title, even if it were of stellar quality--the way they've made the character bland and inconsequential for decades in the X-Men team books would leave most fans not caring enough to even try the stories. They would have to revitalize the character in the team books to get people invested in her like they used to be for her solo title to do well.

On the other hand, before the second generation X-Men came along, the Original Five couldn't even sustain the title and the book got cancelled. What does that mean? Nobody cares about Jean and Scott being the heart and soul of the X-books. They are some of the blandest characters I have seen, and they don't get written down to prop up other characters. Jean gets written the same regardless of who's on the roster with her. Storm, Wolverine, and Gambit have far more interest, not only in my opinion, but the majority of the fandom feel the same way when all of the characters are well portrayed.

Marvel did a dumb thing starting in the early 90s by ignoring Storm in favor of Jean when they combined the Uncanny X-Men roster with the original X-Factor team. The sales on the book went down, and by the mid-90s, the company went bankrupt because they don't know how to give consumers what they want. If people prefer Storm over Jean when both are well-written (which they obviously do), write both characters well, but keep Storm as the center of the book. Heck, they could've put Jean on Scott's team instead of Ororo's during the Gold/Blue era so they could rehash all the same old Cyclops and Jean stories wanted over and over again in Blue while giving the fandom what they preferred in Gold (namely more Storm stories and character development with Wolverine as her rock to lean on when things get hard). The problem with that? The Blue title would do badly in sales compared to Gold, and Marvel wanted to try and force people to like Jean. The lesson? Don't write the fan favorite down in hopes it will make people like the lesser character better.

5) Finally, as a consumer, I have a right to criticize a product if I don't like it. Most successful companies want to hear feedback from their customers in an effort to create the best products and services possible. Marvel is just dumb in that they feel the opposite. They think they can force people to favor the company's preferred characters, and their decades worth of abysmal sales show the results of that decision.

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Koays

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@stormcell:

1- So in other words. We didn't do anything to you....your just revenge trolling all of comicvine....my point exactly.

2- Yes I post alot. Because I like these drawings. You post as much as you do to talk about the drawing you hate and to attack and combat people who like that drawing.

You can go back through my post for the last year if you want.....I may have posted more then you, but the sheer amount of time and words you wasted on essays about something you say you don't like dwarfs my word count by a margin

3- I'm sorry to hear that. And if it just boiled down to mishandling the property I would sympathize with you. But I've seen what you want and what would make you enjoy the franchise more....and that isn't really X-Men either. So for the same reasons I wouldn't want to sit through 37 directionless Bendis books....i wouldn't really want to sit through 37 books all about your favorites.

4- I fundamentally disagree with this. But it's too long to get into and will come off as ragging on Storm.

The short version, Yes the X-Men were doing well in the later daze of Claremonts run... but it is also the most often forgotten and dismissed part of his run and of X-Men history overall.

While it may have been an extremely important and powerful moment for Storm and comics in general for her to have that role at that time....an unbiased look at the fandom and the writing shows that it isn't as popular as you make it out to be OR as vaunted.

If we want to analyze Storm and her character and her iconic status then yes we can point there, but informed X-Fans are also aware that what was good for her wasn't necesarily good for the franchise overall and despite the down turn in the 90s it wouldn't have held up much better had the general quality and direction of the later 80s continued.

5- You are a consumer yes. You have a right to an opinion yes. While I don't agree with the "Bash what they gave us so they'll give us what we want" form of consumer feedback it's your right to do that.

But as with everything there is a line. And every time you enter a thread to derail it you cross 2.

The 1st is Ethical- We didn't do anything to you. You don't have to bash and hate and antagonize people who like something you don't like in the hope that it gets you your way. You don't like a product scream it to your hearts content....but don't scream it at us because some people got what they wanted and you didn't.

The 2nd is credibility - If you bash anything and everything with a goal of getting your way, then no one can believe or trust your criticism. I've asked you twice about your issue with a character and twice you've given me answers based on your belief about the politics and mishandling of characters within the X-Men and at Marvel.

Which has nothing to do with why you are in battle threads shouting that "Jean fans are wanking Jean, she's never been that good.Plot Induced Stupidity..etc".

One is a critique of the business model, the other is a critique of the fandoms interpretation of events and writings that they read on their own.....you can't use your frustration with one as justification for antagonizing the other.....because as much as you may antagonize Jean fans for saying she's #1 on a fan made power ranking list, it's not gonna some how end with Storm getting a solo from Marvel headquarters.

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Stormcell

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#42  Edited By Stormcell

@koays:

1) Pointing out facts is not revenge trolling. Facts are facts. Jean is no longer an omega telekinetic mutant, for instance. That's a fact. Jean shouldn't be an omega-level telepath either now that hosting the Phoenix Force is no longer unique to her. Canonically, that's a fact, too. Nate Grey, Cable, Xavier, and others have always been more powerful than she when you take that bird off the table. Pointing out facts like these is not trolling no matter how uncomfortable it may make you and other swaths of the Jean fanbase feel.

2) When I post "negatively", I post facts about a character. I am not like you who try and single out individual Storm fans (most notably Butterflykyss and me) for our positions and name call us. The very few times I have actually hit someone on here personally has only been when they hit me first...and I usually don't strike back on such a level. So, let's get that straight.

3) Once more, you misconstrue what I've said to try and make a false, silly point. Nowhere did I say only my favorite characters should get stories. I stated plainly that Jean and others should get stories as well, but Marvel should focus more on the characters that have the broadest audience appeal. That's just basic business sense. You're not going to sell a product to the masses that they don't like. If you want their money, you have to give them something they want. While the Jean fanbase is vocal, it is a small fanbase, and it obviously isn't large enough to keep the sales high. Heck, even the least grossing X-Men movies were the three that focused on Jean. This character resonates only with a small percentage of consumers. This is a fact, thus it is not trolling to point this out. Marvel is stupid, and Fox was stupid in the way they handled the X-Men franchise. It's hard to believe Spider-Man movies outdid the X-Men movies in the box offices until you realize that Fox put the focus on characters that resonate less with consumers, and then they told that Phoenix story three different times (just like how Marvel keeps rehashing the same old tired Jean and Scott stories over and over and over and over again).

4) Oh, please. When Claremont left the book in the 80s, and the focus shifted from Storm to Cyclops and Jean Grey, the ever-popular product became nearly unrecognizable. Now, admittedly, you're not going to appease every reader with Storm; however, if Marvel wanted to make money, keeping her in the spotlight would've made far more money than putting Scott and Jean in that role. They've never connected with the readership like a well-written Storm has, hence the book tanked in sales. Again, facts are the facts regardless of whether or not it hurts your feelings.

5) I don't bash Jean fans, so stop making that lie up. I point out facts about Jean and Marvel's trend of scaling back other characters to prop her up (I mean, they even PIS'd Galactus worse than anything I've EVER seen to try and give Jean a moment, for crying out loud). Jean fans attack me personally because they can't credibly attack the merits of my points against their Sacred One.

Regarding my responses to your inquiry about why I dislike Jean, my answers are rooted in cold hard facts that are completely substantiated by canon. Even taking a look at what they did recently with the new Omega Mutants list highlights this point. Canonically, now that anyone can host the Phoenix Force, Jean should not be an omega level anything since her whole "full potential" thing has always revolved around the Phoenix Force concept. Furthermore, while Storm was consistently devalued for Jean whenever they shared the same roster between 1991 and 2005, recently, other characters have started to be devalued to prop her up with decades worth of their feats and history thrown out the window.

I mentioned Galactus earlier, but Magneto has become another victim of this "Jean Effect". His mental defenses, which had been a feature of the character for decades, have been completely erased so that Jean can get into his head at will. His force-field, which was established to have no flaws back in the early 80s, now has a weak point. The only way to bypass it originally was through greater power (Storm), or by absorbing it (Thor), or by using a form of energy that could pass through it unimpeded (Photon and more recently Selene). Recently, that has changed. His force-field was recently given a flaw for Jean to exploit to break through.

I can go on and on about the PIS other characters get to elevate Jean.

Then you have the constant rehasing of the same old Summer/Grey story arcs that have been told since the mid-to late 70s. All of this has killed the x-franchise, and makes the character less credible since she can't prevail against the others without them being written down. Again, this is not an opinion, but are cold hard facts that are completely backed by canon.

All of this said, Marvel is too stupid to fix the problems with their comics, and they won't bother trying as long as they continue to make a ton of money from the movies. However, I find it interesting to note that after the last failed attempt with consumers with the Jean/Phoenix movie, they are not interested in doing another X-Men movie for a long time.

https://www3.forbes.com/business/dark-phoenix-is-90-million-behind-the-lowest-grossing-x-men-movie/?utm_campaign=lowest-grossing-x-men-movie&utm_source=yahoo-gemini&utm_medium=yh131778n1us&lcid=yh131778n1us&utm_content=HOMEPAGE_US

Say what you will, but Jean doesn't sell. Those are cold hard facts. Pointing this out is not trolling, but only highlighting craptastic stories, craptastic movies, and poor business practices.

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Koays

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@stormcell:

1- I'm not uncomfortable. And by most comparison's i'm barely a Jean fan. Hell I've actually brought up all of those same points about the new Omega Level list myself.

But lets not confuse running into threads trying to bait people with random fan terms and saying that the story and creators are lying when something is stated on panel....with stating facts.

2- I'm not name calling. All I've done is state exactly what you've done. Am I lying? Did you not tag myself and others here in an attempt to talk about us on this very board? Did you not talk about how much fun it is to antagonize Jean fans?

Try it with one of the others maybe, but I'm not name calling or finger pointing I'm just saying exactly what was done by you to that lead to the escalation of a problem that no one other then you wanted.

3- Like I said i'm not going to get into your poor assessment of business. Saying Jean Grey story films didn't gross because of her popularity makes your argument invalid.

1 of those films wasn't even a Jean Grey story. And the other 2 are based on one of the best selling and most celebrated stories in comicbook history.

I'm not going to discuss this if your entire argument is based on ignoring the fundamental flaws of the movies, the critical dissonance and the sheer clusterfuck that is modern movie promotion in the age of twitter and the internet.

4- Again feelings arent hurt....your more emotional then I am here.

Your trying to argue that a well written Storm appeals to more people then early 90s Jean & Scott.....yea, no duh.

But lets not isolate that point. X-Men in the early 90s and late 80s suffer from a crap ton of problems, most importantly being the writer change.

If you wanna argue about Claremont's Storm vs Claremonts Jean & Scott we can do that. If you wanna compare early Claremont to end of 80s Claremont we can do that.

We're not gonna compare Nicieza, Lobdell & Lee to Claremont and pretend that everyone wouldn't have been better off if Claremont wasn't still piloting despite his decline.

5- Yea....like I said I'm not here to make up things. What you said is what you said but your welcome to try to connect your antagonizing people with Marvel getting Storm more screen time.

The very fact that you can talk about his mental defenses when Jean got into his head during Eve of Destruction and had repeatedly gotten pass other mental defenses and shields throughout her existence is proof enough of my point.

You have a need, that comes off as insecurity, to attack a fandom that is otherwise minding their business and having fun by themselves.

You sight things out of context and make excuses when it fits you.....I mean you just named 3 different things that could effect Magneto but your obsessed with Jean not becoming the fourth.

Your movie numbers are sited without context despite the fact that if the same were done with comics then Storm headed titles would only be relevant in the 80s and in Black Panther books, since those are the only times she's been able to sustain or increase sales.

Like I said, I'm an X-Men fan....and as such I'm not out to dismantle or destroy any other fandom.

But your need for an enemy isnt acceptable and you don't get to attack and annoy others just because your not getting your way with Marvel or other fandoms.

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geekryan

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Wel this was an interesting read lol.

I 100% back the Storm vs. Jean CaV match. But I know it will never happen because none of y'all will ever agree to it.

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Stormcell

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#45  Edited By Stormcell

@koays:

1) I wasn't talking about how fun it was to antagonize Jean fans so much as I was mentioning bringing up their hypocritical double-standards.

2) Regarding the Phoenix Saga being one of the gold standards of comicbook stories, it wasn't because Jean was so great, but the story itself. To be honest, any powerful character could've taken Jean's spot and it would've been just as powerful for the time it was written and it would've worked out the same way. Jean is just a cardboard cut out of a superheroines just like Scott is a cardboard cutout of a superhero. The Phoenix concept was just a means to try and make her special. It worked for one story, and then it was old. And, by the way, Phoenix Force Jean made no sense from the start since Phoenix had powers far beyond any conceivable stretch regarding the scope of a TP/TK power set.

3) So, you want to restrict the conversation to Claremont's take on the characters? Fine. Let's do that. When Claremont returned to the X-Men in 2000, Jean was the center of Uncanny during Revolution, and the book was lackluster. He told his Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga in the late 70s/early 80s, and that was all there was to say about Jean outside of generic stuff like evil clones, love triangles, kids from the future, and duplicates of her kids. Oh, yeah, and the rehashed Phoenix theme being hinted at and told over and over again. Those kinds of stories can be told about anybody meaning Jean doesn't stand out with them. All characters are not created equal, and Jean's character is limited in the kinds of stories that can be told about her by the very nature she was conceived from the start.

Finally, Jean hasn't added anything meaningful or unique to the X-Men lore since the Dark Phoenix Saga. All she's done since then is take up space in the X-Men team books with the constantly regurgitated generic themes at the expense of other more popular characters with far greater story potential being ignored. Again, Marvel's tanking sales show the results of this decision.

4) I don't go out of my way to attack the Jean fandom. I attack Jean's character when she's pitted against Storm, Emma, or other characters I may care about. Do you see me going on the Jean board starting trouble? No! I don't do that because I don't care about the character.

As far as Jean getting into Magneto's head, you conveniently left out how Magneto defeated Phoenix Force Jean Grey, stalemated Xavier (a much more powerful psi than Jean) through sheer willpower alone, jammed Jean's psi-powers with his magnetic abilities, and also has a helmet to add to his mental defenses. Jean shouldn't be getting in his head in a fight. That was pure PIS, and this is coming from a person who dislikes Magneto.

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CrimsonFoxFire

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@geekryan: if I knew how to properly do a cav I would as long as you're polite cause I'm not gonna do something when someone is rude

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CrimsonFoxFire

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@koays: well I wish we didnt beef as Storm and Jean both have faced highs and lows in their comic showings though I think storm more often then jean. Cant everyone block the annoying people so they wont see them.i still dont think even if its ooc for geeks to behave like that he should get excused he should get called out just the same because I'm not gonna shit on jean fans because I ran into a few aholes.

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Stormcell

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#48  Edited By Stormcell

Look, the fact is in any Jean vs. debate, it is important to note the PIS trend that follows this character. When other characters are pitted against her in the comics nowadays, their power levels tend to take a nosedive in most instances to try and prop her up. She's lost her credibility as this trend casts doubt on any good showing she may receive against other characters who have been historically more powerful than she. Again, just a fact.