Why Mace Windu was amped against Darth Sidious?

In this blog I will explain why Windu was amped when he defeated Sidious.

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*Note before the blog: I definitely don't believe Sidious faked his defeat or anything like that, Windu won the duel fair and square, however I will explain how did he win.

First of all, lets remember how the fight started, and how it come to a one on one duel with Windu.

Mace gathered his elite team and goes to arrest Palpatine, even Kenobi considers this team as an elite one;

''Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee-four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

"True," Yoda said. "But both of us apart, a chance we might create . . ."

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

Before the fight, somehow Fisto doesn't believe they can do it. Fisto wants Yoda or even Kenobi in this fight.

If Windu was far better than Kenobi, or even as strong as Yoda, then why Kit Fisto says that?

Why he doesn't believe Windu can match with Sidious in combat like Yoda could?

"I'd feel better if Yoda were here." This Master was a Nautiloid, tall and broad-shouldered, his glabrous scalp-tentacles restrained by loops of embossed leather. "Or even Kenobi. On Ord Cestus, Obi-Wan and I..." "Yoda is pinned down on Kashyyyk, and Kenobi is out of contact on Utapau.

The Dark Lord has revealed himself, and we dare not hesitate. Think not of if, Master Fisto; this duty has fallen to us. We will suffice." This Master was an Iktotchi, shorter and slimmer than the first.

Two long horns curved downward from his forehead to below his chin. One had been amputated after being shattered in battle a few months before. Bacta had accelereated its regrowth, and the once maimed horn was now a match to the other. "We will suffice," he repeated. "We will have to."

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

And if Windu is far better than Kenobi, why would Windu compare himself to Kenobi?

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him." This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-" Mace Windu had almost smiled.

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way. "That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

Windu compares his own lightsaber skills to Obi-Wan.

Now before we start, there are multiple sources states that it's Sidious > Yoda. And Windu isn't better than Yoda, infact these sources states that Windu is only second to Yoda, so it says that Yoda > Windu.

Nick Gillard : ''We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda...''

Source: Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette

''He seems to be second most powerful jedi on the that council, next to Yoda.''

Source: Insider #55

And let's see how many sources states that Sidious > Yoda;

1- Count Dooku:

Dooku: ''Do you really believe there is any power in the galaxy that can stand against my lord (Sidious)? Ten thousand Jedi knights will try this and all will fail.''

Source: Son of Dathomir 03 (2014)

2- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia:

''The two engaged in a spectacular duel- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure. Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.''

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

3- Revenge of the Sith Novel:

''Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed.

The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day.

The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon? He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .''

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

4- Starwars.com:

''Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious.''

Source: Starwars.com

So if Sidious > Yoda > Windu, how did Windu beat Sidious?

The answer is simple; Windu was amped.

The evidences are; Dooku's former statement about Sidious also applies to Windu. And there are even more to that:

1- Windu defeats Jedi Master Prosset Dibs, but with difficulty:

Actually this is a good dueling feat, Windu defeats Prosset with moderate effort.

However Prosset manages to hold his own, and he even claims that Windu knows nothing of the Force.

The duel continues:

Windu wins in the end.

Source: Star Wars - Jedi of the Republic - Mace Windu (2017)

However, this duel shows us that Windu isn't actually on the same level with Sidious, people like Sidious would instantly stomp someone like Prosset Dibs.

If you're wondering, if Prosset is actually on the same level with Jedi Council members like Eeth Koth, Adi Gallia, Saesee Tiin or not, he really isn't.

Because later Prosset Dibs joins the Inquisitorius and he takes the name of Tenth Brother.

By the usual rankings; it's the Grand Inquisitor > the other Inquisitors, so we can't really say that Prosset was more powerful than someone like the Grand Inquisitor.

Later Tenth Brother got killed by his own Clone Troopers when former Jedi Ferren Barr mind tricked the Clones by giving the order to execute Order 66.

Source: Star Wars - Darth Vader Dark Lord of the Sith 017 (2017)

In the end Prosset Dibs wasn't really more powerful than the other Inquisitors. And we know Force users like Vader or Maul was able to fight and defeat 2 Inquisitors at the same time, let alone Sidious.

2- Windu fails to protect his friends (Kit, Saesee, Agen) from Sidious, who was killing all of them one by one:

Now imagine,

if Yoda was able to protect Anakin from Sidious in the Force vision when they dueled; why Windu failed to do the same?

Or Maul was able to protect Savage Opress, but Kenobi fails to protect Adi Galia, and then Kenobi retreats and admits his defeat.

Maul moves faster than post-AotC Kenobi, stops his blade in time.

Kenobi was unable protect Adi Gallia, and Hondo states that Kenobi isn't as strong as Maul.

Hondo: ''Where is the other Jedi?''

Kenobi: ''She's... She's dead.''

Hondo: ''She's d They are too powerful for even you? I am semi-speechless.''

Source: The Clone Wars: Season 5 Episode 01

Windu simply fails to save his friends, not even Kit Fisto, and if you believe Windu was Sidious's equal at the beginning of the fight, how did this happen?

The answer is clear, Windu got stronger during the fight after his friends died, (similar to Kenobi's amp, after losing Adi Gallia), and before that Windu wasn't Sidious' equal in power.

3- Sidious overpowers Windu by using the Force:

This actaully happened in the official RotS movie script and the comic book,

PALPATINE: It's treason, then. A close shot of PALPATINE as the fight begins. Close shots of THREE JEDI getting cut down by PALPATINE. PALPATINE and MACE continue to fight.

Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down. ANAKIN lands his speeder, jumps out, and runs down a long corridor toward the Chancellor's office.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Script

And as I mentioned earlier, Windu fails to protect his friends, not even Kit Fisto who managed to survive longer than Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin.

While Sidious murders even Kit Fisto, Windu was helpless about it. And then Sidious slams Windu through the wall by using the Force.

4- Sidious is powerful enough to cloud the vision of both Yoda and Windu:

Maul did this to TPM Kenobi before,

''The Sith Lord seemed to cloud Obi-Wan's use of the Force, making it hard to sense his opponent's moves and counter them in time.''

Source: Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace Novel

However Sidious does this for a larger scale.

The Jedi Master rubbed a hand over his forehead and looked to Yoda, who sat with his eyes closed. Probably contemplating the same riddles as he was, Mace knew. And equally troubled, if not more so. "Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could not see," Yoda remarked.

"I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

"Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness," Yoda replied. "If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will."

For the two Jedi Masters, this surprising development was troubling on several different levels.

Source: Attack of the Clones Novel

And Sidious was responsible for clouding their vision:

That hit Obi-Wan as profoundly as any of the electric bolts holding him ever could. "No! That's not possible." His mind whirled, needing a denial. He alone among the living Jedi had battled a Sith Lord, and that contest had cost his beloved Master Qui-Gon his life. "The Jedi would be aware of it."

"The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend," Dooku calmly explained. "Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious."

"I don't believe you," Obi-Wan said flatly. He only wished he held that truth as solidly as he had just proclaimed.

Source: Attack of the Clones Novel

5- Nick Gillard states that only Yoda and Sidious are tier 9, Windu is tier 8 and only bordering to tier 9:

Gillard: ''In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.

And somebody like Kit Fisto is 7. I did take it to 8 and 9. But not many people know that. 8 and 9 is cheat.'' ''Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. So Obi-Wan is 8. Yoda is 9. Mace is 8 bordering on 9. Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned.''

Source: Nick Gillard, the fighting scenes director of Prequel Trilogy

6- The director of the Clone Wars and the Rebels, Dave Filoni states that ''no one'' can compete with Sidious; it's Sidious > Windu as well.

Dave Filoni: ''Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.''

(...)

''At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy.''

Source: Starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2

The director states that Sidious is the strongest, and no one can compete with him.

7- Maul's apprentice was able to put up ''a better fight'' than the Jedi Council (Includes Mace Windu):

Dave Filoni: ''He (Savage Opress) puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did.''

Source: Star Wars The Clone Wars Season Five: The Lawless Featurette

While Windu watches his friends die one by one; Fisto, Kolar, Tiin.

Maul's apprentice puts up a better fight, and unlike Windu, Maul was able to keep his apprentice in the fight, longer than Windu kept Fisto and the rest in the fight against Sidious.

8- Maul wasn't afraid to take on both Mace Windu and Aayla Secura at the same time and Maul defeats Windu by using Sokan (using the environment to his advantage):

Maul fights with Mace Windu and Aayla Secura at the same time and duel continues in a off-panel fight.

Source: Star Wars: Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir #03

The Son of Dathomir comic book is also confirmed as entirely canon.

Maul can't treat Sidious like this; he says: ''finally, a fair fight'' against Windu, and he couldn't win the fight after kicking Aayla Secura, by dodging an explosion that KOed Windu.

Which is an excellent Sokan technique usage for Maul and he defeats Windu with this technique.

Maul was faster than Windu.

That shouldn't be possible when it comes to fighting Sidious.

Maul couldn't easily defeat Sidious like this, it would be harder than this.

9- Dooku and Windu were equals in the Force:

Source: Star Wars Adventures 010 (2021)

Both Dooku and Windu Force pushed each other once,

Source: Star Wars Adventures 010 (2021)

In the end Windu wins the duel against Dooku, but Dooku manages to escape.

Mace: ''I am giving you one chance to surrender, Dooku. Lay down your lightsaber... Or I will take it from you.''

Dooku: ''I'm sure you would.''

Source: Star Wars Adventures 010 (2021)

However, if Dooku fights against Sidious, the fight shouldn't have been that close.

Sidious Force choked Dooku from another planet.

Source: The Clone Wars Season 6 Episode 10 (2014)

The fight between Sidious and Dooku wouldn't be close at all.

As well as Dooku himself admits this.

Dooku: ''Do you really believe there is any power in the galaxy that can stand against my lord (Sidious)? Ten thousand Jedi knights will try this and all will fail.''

Source: Son of Dathomir 03 (2014)

Now, for all of these reasons, even if it's slightly: Sidious > Yoda > Windu suits here perfectly fine.

Matt Martin, an official from Lucasfilm, also confirms that Windu's focus against Sidious was circumstantial;

''Mace's focus against Sidious'':

Let's get to the main reasons why Windu was amped against Sidious:

# 1- Windu fought for Republic, which is something he loved more than his life:

''Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love.

Mace Windu loves the Republic.''

(...)

''Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.''

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

This is very similar to Ben Kenobi's amplification against Maul, when Maul find out about Luke Skywalker's existence, Kenobi had to protect the person who he believed that it's the Chosen One.

Dave Filoni : ''When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can't defeat that.''

Source: io9.gizmodo.com

# 2- Windu's Vaapad/Juyo has become more powerful due to Anakin's fears:

Let's remember the fact that Maul was able to feed from anger and rage, this is also similar.

Obi-Wan : ''He used my anger against me, actually fed off my fury, gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me...''

Source: Jedi vs. Sith The Essential Guide to the Force

Mace Windu becomes even more powerful when Anakin arrives and only then Windu defeats Sidious by using fear:

''He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"

"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost."

Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said.

He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

That was not Sidious' fear however, it was:

Anakin's fear:

"Listen to me-you have to listen to me-" Anakin sagged against him, shaking; Mace wrapped his arms around the young Jedi and guided him into the nearest chair. "You can't-please, Master Windu, give me your word, promise me it'll be an arrest, promise you're not going to hurt him-"

(...)

The tangled web of fault lines in the Force he had seen connecting Anakin to Obi-Wan and to Palpatine was no more; in their place was a single spider-knot that sang with power enough to crack the planet.

Anakin Skywalker no longer had shatter-points. He was a shatterpoint. The shatterpoint.

Everything depended on him. Everything. Mace said slowly, with the same sort of deliberate care he would use in examining an unknown type of bomb that might have the power to destroy the universe itself, "Anakin, look at me." Skywalker raised his head. "Are you hurt? Do you need-" Mace frowned.

Anakin's eyes were raw, and red, and his face looked swollen. For a long time he didn't know if Anakin would answer, if he could answer, if he could even speak at all; the young Jedi seemed to be struggling with something inside himself, as though he fought desperately against the birth of a monster hatching within his chest. But in the Force, there was no as though; there was no seemed to be.

In the Force, Mace could feel the monster inside Anakin Skywalker, a real monster, too real, one that was eating him alive from the inside out.

Fear. This was the wound Anakin had taken. This was the hurt that had him shaking and stammering and too weak to stand. Some black fear had hatched like fever wasps inside the young Knight's brain, and it was killing him.''

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novel

In terms of power levels, just like Gillard says, Windu is betweenKenobi / Dooku / Maul level (tier 8) and Yoda / Sidious level (tier 9) without his amp.

When he gets that amp due to the; Love of the republic and Anakin's fears, his Vaapad gets even more and more powerful and he becomes a true tier 9 like Sidious, and he surpasses Yoda.

These 2 reasons (Love of Republic and Anakin's fears) made Windu more powerful than ever against Sidious. Without these two factors (which made him more powerful than usual), Windu wasn't equal to Sidious.

Thanks for reading.

My other Star Wars threads:

• Darth Maul Respect Thread (Legends)
• Darth Maul Respect Thread (Canon)
• Analyze: Maul or Dooku, who is the stronger Sith Lord and why?
• How powerful was Old Ben Kenobi? Maul vs. Ben Kenobi
• All the fights between Darth Maul vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi
• Mace Windu Respect Thread
• Darth Krayt Respect Thread
• Fifth Brother Respect Thread
• Did Palpatine's Lightning Hit Mace Windu?
• Force Defense: How does it work?

Nice, Mace was definitely at his strongest here, but I've not sure to conclude whether it was a permament empowerment or just a temporary amp. I think Sidious threw the fight because Anakin shows up 19 seconds after Palpatine gets kicked and disarmed by Mace, which really convinient, and it seems in character for Palpatine to victimise himself as the loser because he wants to turn him to the Dark Side. The RotS novel tells us that Mace's reliance of Shatterpoint i.e. Palpatine's fear of falling out of the Windu window, is what lead him to disarming, and thereby defeating Palpatine, Mace even claims that benefitted him, but then we find out that the shatterpoint was Anakin's fear of losing Padme, and that Palpatine had no actual fear to begin with.

Completely agree with this. Nice work.

Overall, a very good job. You bring great evidence to show and explain the amp that he had against Sidious. Some things I wanted to refute though. Your evidence for Mace=Obiwan skillwise, while I agree, is evidence just that Obiwan is more suited to fight Grevious. Another time was when you used Hondo's conversation with Kenobi. When Hondo asked if they are stronger he is referring to both of them, as in Maul and Savage. Also Hondo isn't exactly the best source to use. This does not really point to Maul being better than Kenobi. After Maul is found we don't get to see an equal one on one in the shows till rebels. Besides that, which is not even really the topic of the post, this post is very good.

@redheathen: I never said Windu didn't win. I explained here that he was amped while beating Sidious.

I was just adding it. You made a compelling argument. Great blog.

Great blog.

Thanks.

Updated with Windu's duel with Prosset Dibs / Tenth Brother.

@erkan12: can windu also feed on alll of his opponent’s negative emotions or just fear?

It's also worth noting that Mace Windu's personal betrayal and turmoil at the time were what allowed him to use Vaapad to draw strength from Darth Sidious' darkness and allow it to fountain back upon him.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

-Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith novelization.

The fact that Mace was channelling Sidious' speed and power is enough evidence that he wasn't normally a match for him. Even then, they fought as equals until Mace unknowingly drew from Anakin's fear, further amping him which allowed him to disarm Sidious of his lightsaber by outpacing him on the window ledge, although the movie movie obviously doesn't depict their unnatural speed very well.

Good blog but just a couple things. First, Mace complimenting Obi Wan doesnt mean there equal, he's just driving home a point that Obi Wan is better suited do to his form.

Two, although Anakin was Sheevs shatterpoint, it wasnt Anakin that allowed him to disarm Sidious, that was the window. Hence "turned some of his speed into grip". It was just that Anakin was the person/thing to kill Palpatine, which he ended up doing, albiet many years later.

@hellothere5432: Thanks.

Make a blog on Maul>Kenobi.

The prosset dibbs thing isn’t exactly a valid measure of skill, if mace wanted him dead he would have been killed very quickly, but mace was caught off guard and was also wanting to capture him not using his full power, yes sidious would have killed him because sidious is a murderer and mace isn’t.

While mace was stated as an 8, it was stated that he was bordering a 9 so he was a fair bit above the others like, anakin, dooku, obi wan and maul.