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#201 Edited by magnetic_eye (1739 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnetic_eye: I have read a lot of amazing Spiderman vol 1 and that is why I like gwen.

House of M is Peters perfect World. It came into existence because of the scarlet witch, and it did replace the world for some time and it had lasting effects on the 616 universe, so it does count.the post OMD universe is the main universe,the fact that you think it is not is sad wishful thinking.

House of M may have had some effect on the 616 Universe, but not anymore. You're clutching at straws.

LOL, yes I'm a sad wishful thinker because Marvel is projecting the post OMD Universe as the main universe and still promoting the adage that with "great power comes great responsibility". How can Peter honestly live by that motto when he's made a deal with the devil?

That is what is truly sad and hypocritical, with Marvel continuing to condone an ill conceived concept, something morally wrong and offensive that goes against Peter's true character. Not very responsible is it?

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#202 Posted by christianrapper (6012 posts) - - Show Bio

marvel has retroactively ruined gwynn. that thing with osborn killed here character. you can't forget that stuff.

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#203 Edited by kcomicfan (4690 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnetic_eye: The effects of house of M are still present for a lot of characters and a whole species in the marvel universe. And there is no evidence to show that how he felt for qwen was not genuine because the house of M universe was real for a time.

The post OMD universe IS the main universe,there is no "projecting".Peter Making a deal with the devil was not very responsible. But he has done more then enough heroic,responsible deeds to make up for this.

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#204 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18170 posts) - - Show Bio

Gwen stacy was incredibly boring as a character, in fact before her death no one actually liked her as a character.People still don't but because of the effect her death had on peter they think she is much better than she really is.

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#205 Edited by Green_Tea (10344 posts) - - Show Bio

Gwen stacy was incredibly boring as a character, in fact before her death no one actually liked her as a character.People still don't but because of the effect her death had on peter they think she is much better than she really is.

This right here. I'm currently reading all of the ASM comics and I'm on #128 and damn, Gwen was clearly a product of her time, she would literally cry all the time when something happened and we never really saw her and Pete hang out by themselves for an issue to really buy their relationship. All we got was those two declaring how much they love each other and that they want to be together. Weak writing.

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#206 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000 said:

Gwen stacy was incredibly boring as a character, in fact before her death no one actually liked her as a character.People still don't but because of the effect her death had on peter they think she is much better than she really is.

This right here. I'm currently reading all of the ASM comics and I'm on #128 and damn, Gwen was clearly a product of her time, she would literally cry all the time when something happened and we never really saw her and Pete hang out by themselves for an issue to really buy their relationship. All we got was those two declaring how much they love each other and that they want to be together. Weak writing.

It reminded me of those romance comics where the nurse was crying over the doctor back in the 50's LOL

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#207 Posted by Green_Tea (10344 posts) - - Show Bio

@ursaber said:
@solid_snake97 said:
@watcher5000 said:

Gwen stacy was incredibly boring as a character, in fact before her death no one actually liked her as a character.People still don't but because of the effect her death had on peter they think she is much better than she really is.

This right here. I'm currently reading all of the ASM comics and I'm on #128 and damn, Gwen was clearly a product of her time, she would literally cry all the time when something happened and we never really saw her and Pete hang out by themselves for an issue to really buy their relationship. All we got was those two declaring how much they love each other and that they want to be together. Weak writing.

It reminded me of those romance comics where the nurse was crying over the doctor back in the 50's LOL

by far she was the worst part about the 60/70 comics lol, every arc was with her complaining to Peter about how he runs away when there's danger and ya da ya ya da muh heart is broken

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#208 Edited by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

@ursaber said:
@solid_snake97 said:
@watcher5000 said:

Gwen stacy was incredibly boring as a character, in fact before her death no one actually liked her as a character.People still don't but because of the effect her death had on peter they think she is much better than she really is.

This right here. I'm currently reading all of the ASM comics and I'm on #128 and damn, Gwen was clearly a product of her time, she would literally cry all the time when something happened and we never really saw her and Pete hang out by themselves for an issue to really buy their relationship. All we got was those two declaring how much they love each other and that they want to be together. Weak writing.

It reminded me of those romance comics where the nurse was crying over the doctor back in the 50's LOL

by far she was the worst part about the 60/70 comics lol, every arc was with her complaining to Peter about how he runs away when there's danger and ya da ya ya da muh heart is broken

And for some reason the heads of Marvel are taken with her.

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#209 Posted by ItsaWorld (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't Gwen kinda racist? During the Spider-Man run within the civil rights movement, Gwen was supporting a man running for her dad's old police position who was literally determined to get rid of black people. I dunno if she knew about it though, been a while since I read that saga. But yeah, that happened.

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#210 Posted by amazingfantasy (2497 posts) - - Show Bio

Y'all know nothing. Lian Tang is where it's at, rivalled only by the mighty Carlie Cooper.

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#211 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

Y'all know nothing. Lian Tang is where it's at, rivalled only by the mighty Carlie Cooper.

Talk about the bottom of the barrel LOL

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#212 Posted by amazingfantasy (2497 posts) - - Show Bio
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#213 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio
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#214 Edited by SilverAgeReader (77 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing that readers tend to forget is that these characters are clay. They can be whatever writers decide they will be, do whatever writers decide they will do. We all make the mistake of seeing them as some sort of independent force that exists outside of fiction and that their choices exist somehow outside of writers' decisions. I'm not excluding myself. We all do this. It's part of the reason why we connect with these characters.

That said, there is such a thing as internal consistency. Once a character and their reality is established, however fantastic they may be, good storytelling dictates that they and their world should behave consistently with the rules that have been laid.

The biggest problem with evaluating any of this is the mess that Marvel editors and writers have been making of internal consistency for perhaps the last 20 years and certainly the last 10. If you look at the Silver Age, except for a couple of rough-and-tumble years in which the rules of the Marvel Universe were first being worked out, the characters and stories were mostly internally consistent. The editors cared about this at the time. The current crop of editors does not. The characters are clay, but they shouldn't be treated as playthings, because they aren't being written for the writers. They're being written for THE AUDIENCE. This is something that Stan Lee understood very well, and that Axel Alonso and Joe Quesada do not.

If Gwen Stacy seems boring to many, it is mostly because at the time the comics audience was mainly ages 8-22. The characters had to be accessible to kids and didn't have to be any more sophisticated than a college senior would appreciate. By the time Gerry Conway started writing for Mary Jane, he had an audience that had grown up reading these characters and were still reading comics. There were still kids reading comics, but the core readership was probably about 8 years older. Mary Jane benefited from being written for an older audience with more patience for reading lengthy dialogue scenes and wanted more depth in character interactions. She also benefited from about 35 years' worth of character development that was never given to Gwen Stacy.

As far as Sins Past, One More Day, and One Moment In Time, I would suggest that what is and is not canon is essentially meaningless since the end of Volume 1 of the title. There have been endless retcons and reboots since then and virtually everything is up for grabs all the time. Internal consistency has been completely ignored. For example, Sins Past has Gwen Stacy acting completely out of character, but more than that, the events in the story couldn't possibly have happened because they don't match the timeline. Peter was out of the country for perhaps 1-3 weeks at the most, not the months required for Gwen to be seduced and bring a pregnancy to term. The story made no sense, should never have been written, and was intended to be retconned.

I'll also point out that this is the danger of treating characters as playthings and ignoring internal consistency. J. Michael Straczynski assumed he would be allowed to retcon the story immediately and the editors prevented him from doing so. As a writer, if you know what you are writing will need to be retconned, you should never write it in the first place. As an editor, you should nix the story idea from the beginning. This is exactly why continuity has become such a mess and readers are losing their connections to these characters.

One More Day should never have happened either. The need for it was kicked off by the Civil War event, which was misguided from the beginning. Continuities were shattered by it, and writers painted themselves into so many corners, that it ultimately spawned multiple retcons, which every editor and writer involved in it should have foreseen. Peter Parker unmasking in front of the world was unbelievably out of character. With his history, the death of Gwen Stacy, and the multiple near-misses with Aunt May and with Mary Jane, having him unmask before the entire world was completely absurd.

I could go on and on in this vein (And I have. Sorry about that,) but ultimately I would stay away from the terrible editorial decisions that have been made since at least the Sins Past storyline and probably since the "reboot" that brought Aunt May back from the dead in evaluating any of this. None of these characters has been who they should be for a very long time.

As far as Gwen versus Mary Jane? Gwen would have been a wonderful love and an interesting wife if Gerry Conway hadn't killed her off because he didn't like the character and had he been forced to challenge himself and develop the character into something more fully realized. She was, like Peter, college-educated in science, and there was the additional challenge of what would happen when she found out he was Spider-Man, who she still blamed for her father's death. There was a lot of story potential for her that was never explored. Whether or not she was Peter's perfect love and soulmate gets absolutely changed by the fact that he was married to Mary Jane. Love changes in marriage, and the trials, sacrifices, and shared experiences create a bond that is different from just being in love with someone with whom you haven't shared your life. In marriage, where you start out is not where you end up, and second-best can become far and away the greatest love of your life. My position is this: Death changes love. Marriage changes love. Where that puts you in this debate depends on where you wanted to end up in the first place.

I personally favor Gwen because I was invested in the character long before Gerry Conway evolved Mary Jane into a more complex and mature person. That's just my personal preference, though, and if I can't have her back I'd much rather Marvel re-established the Peter/Mary Jane marriage than leave him as the man-child they've devolved him into.

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#215 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18170 posts) - - Show Bio

Funny thing is Black Cat was once said to be his true love

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#216 Edited by ZariusII (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

And then Spectacular#100 showed us how incompatible the two of them were

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#217 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

OH FOR THE LOVE OF. Why bring this topic back from page like 9!

Mary Jane is the undisputed premier love interest of Peter's life. FACT. There, game over!

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#218 Posted by SilverAgeReader (77 posts) - - Show Bio

@ursaber: LOL. Well, if you choose to ignore this discussion, I won't be offended. For me this was on page 1, and I am just getting started here.

There's no guarantee anyone else will be interested enough to post to this discussion thread again, anyway.

Cheers.

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#219 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

@silveragereader:

Sorry. I already posted in this discussion a while back and sometimes get pretty pissed when these age old threads get brought to the front page out of nowhere.

BTW I hope my brief words didn't offend anyone here and that I respect your opinion if you prefer or think Gwen is the true flame. Just wanted to make that clear.

Also I need to correct a misconception and that is that Gerry didn't hate or dislike Gwen like you think. Gerry and the spider offices were already planning to kill someone off from Peter's life and it was down to either Gwen or Aunt May. The offices believed that Aunt May was still vital to Spider Man and settled on killing Gwen.

I also have to state that at the time, the people in the spider offices and even many of the readers enjoyed more of Mary Jane than Gwen because of her energetic dynamic where as Gwen was more reserved and traditional. She was seen as more boring and less exciting than MJ whereas MJ was a break out character since her iconic debut.

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#220 Posted by SilverAgeReader (77 posts) - - Show Bio

@ursaber: Well I suppose I could also blame Jim Shooter and perhaps Roy Thomas, then? I'll admit that I haven't made a study of more than a handful of interviews of editorial and office politics of Marvel before the current era. Obviously when it comes down to such a Faustian bargain, Aunt May stays. I appreciate the correction of the record.

What I have read suggests that the killing of Gwen Stacy was intensely unpopular with readers at the time. It is very hard to project ourselves back into 1973 when Gwen was Peter's girlfriend and MJ had a very minor role, so second-guessing the readers of the time becomes an impossible task. We would have to erase 44 years of continuity from our minds -- a virtually impossible task, especially for anyone who entered the story during those 44 years rather than before them.

Someday I'll post some suggested storylines that could have been explored had the Gwen Stacy character not been killed, but it is a purely academic exercise. I'm well aware that the popular sentiment is that Mary Jane is the great love of Peter Parker's life, and there is no replacement. I will only throw in that I greatly prefer the Peter/Mary Jane marriage over the current status quo. Peter Parker is not growing as a person right now, and that is largely due to the editorial position that he is an eternal Peter Pan, which is absolutely at odds with the character that was crafted by Lee/Ditko/Romita/Kane and even Conway/Andru -- especially the years of the marriage where real character growth is evident.

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#221 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

@ursaber: Well I suppose I could also blame Jim Shooter and perhaps Roy Thomas, then? I'll admit that I haven't made a study of more than a handful of interviews of editorial and office politics of Marvel before the current era. Obviously when it comes down to such a Faustian bargain, Aunt May stays. I appreciate the correction of the record.

Jim Shooter did some of my favorite things. He and Stan orchestrated the Peter MJ wedding and that was a great call. The Faustian bargain of 2007's OMD was massively uncalled for and as everyone knows atrocious.

What I have read suggests that the killing of Gwen Stacy was intensely unpopular with readers at the time. It is very hard to project ourselves back into 1973 when Gwen was Peter's girlfriend and MJ had a very minor role, so second-guessing the readers of the time becomes an impossible task. We would have to erase 44 years of continuity from our minds -- a virtually impossible task, especially for anyone who entered the story during those 44 years rather than before them.

The backlash at the time was negative and no one expected such a thing to happen. The death of a superhero's girlfriend, GASP! Stan made Gerry being Gwen back in any way possible and thus the original Clone Saga was born.

Someday I'll post some suggested storylines that could have been explored had the Gwen Stacy character not been killed, but it is a purely academic exercise. I'm well aware that the popular sentiment is that Mary Jane is the great love of Peter Parker's life, and there is no replacement. I will only throw in that I greatly prefer the Peter/Mary Jane marriage over the current status quo. Peter Parker is not growing as a person right now, and that is largely due to the editorial position that he is an eternal Peter Pan, which is absolutely at odds with the character that was crafted by Lee/Ditko/Romita/Kane and even Conway/Andru -- especially the years of the marriage where real character growth is evident.

Oh, wow. Perfect statement. I also compare current Peter to, effectively, Peter Pan. The marriage was the largest most significant character development in Spider Man's later history and a positive one at that. It was sabotaged because several editors and writers did not personally like it. The marriage was pitched by a fan actually to Stan Lee and Stan gave it to the fans and that's how it should be. When it was announced that the character would be wedded, the crowd cheered. There was even a publicity stunt in a stadium with over 45k fans present. In short, the Spider Marriage was wanted and LOVED!

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#222 Posted by SilverAgeReader (77 posts) - - Show Bio

That's wonderful! Any further discussion I'll put in a new thread. I'll only be so self-indulgent as to repeat something I said earlier:

"The characters are clay, but they shouldn't be treated as playthings, because they aren't being written for the writers. They're being written for THE AUDIENCE."

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#223 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

That's wonderful! Any further discussion I'll put in a new thread. I'll only be so self-indulgent as to repeat something I said earlier:

"The characters are clay, but they shouldn't be treated as playthings, because they aren't being written for the writers. They're being written for THE AUDIENCE."

Again, perfectly said. Today's management at Marvel want to impose themselves upon the comics and make readers like whatever they spew. They have this attitude where you either like what I cough up or you're a hater, racist, sexist, etc. When Marvel did OMD, they denied the will of the fans and did not care one crap. They need to get their heads out of their ass by now that everything they create is not for themselves but, like you said, the AUDIENCE! What the people want must come first than what the creators in a mainstream company like Marvel, where all characters are properties of the company and not the author.

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#224 Posted by Green_Tea (10344 posts) - - Show Bio

If you guys read the 70's issues where we see them fall in love, you'll see that Gwen was your typical silver age female character--not a lot of depth, always cries and complains about Peter and we never really got to know anything else about her. It was only years later that flashbacks and Spider-Man: Blue tried to paint her in a different picture, and you guys fell for the bull crap.

hilarious and pitiful--Gwen is an average character at best.

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#225 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18170 posts) - - Show Bio

@zariusii said:

And then Spectacular#100 showed us how incompatible the two of them were

Because the writers wanted Peter to be with Mary Jane, which I don't mind since his stories were interesting with her as well.But the point was that if Gwen truly was his true love or whatever, it wouldn't have said Black Cat was.

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#226 Posted by ZariusII (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

@zariusii said:

And then Spectacular#100 showed us how incompatible the two of them were

Because the writers wanted Peter to be with Mary Jane, which I don't mind since his stories were interesting with her as well.But the point was that if Gwen truly was his true love or whatever, it wouldn't have said Black Cat was.

There was actually an issue of Spectacular Spider-Man printed years before Black Cat was introduced where Mary Jane joked about Peter having several one true loves

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#227 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18170 posts) - - Show Bio

@zariusii: Scan?And before black cat the only relationship of that type was with Gwen.

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#228 Edited by ZariusII (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

@watcher5000 said:

@zariusii: Scan?And before black cat the only relationship of that type was with Gwen.

I don't have a scanner available, though I have the Essential trade the page comes from, I'll look up the issue number

There was also a Stan Lee-created love interest in the Seventies-era newspaper comics for a bit whom Peter wanted to admit his identity to and marry, she fled New York to escape a cult but later came back, however their relationship ended on bad terms and Mary Jane as usual was there to pick up the pieces. The story was collected in it's entirety over two trade collections. I think you can find the scans for those at the Hell Yeah Web-Wielding Avenger blog.

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#229 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

If you guys read the 70's issues where we see them fall in love, you'll see that Gwen was your typical silver age female character--not a lot of depth, always cries and complains about Peter and we never really got to know anything else about her. It was only years later that flashbacks and Spider-Man: Blue tried to paint her in a different picture, and you guys fell for the bull crap.

hilarious and pitiful--Gwen is an average character at best.

LOL Well said.

The most interesting thing Gwen ever did was DIE! It was afterwards that she got all the hype.

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#230 Edited by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

I have the view that Mary Jane is Peter Parker's greatest love.

Mary Jane is not only the most iconic love interest of Peter Parker/Spider-Man. She's also one of the most iconic love interests in comics. I agree with the person that said Mary Jane Watson to Peter Parker/Spider-Man is like Lois Lane to Clark Kent/Superman.

Peter and Mary Jane have been married for 20 years in the comics real time, and it took a ultra controversial storyline of demonic pact to undo the marriage. They are currently in a 30 year marriage in Stan Lee's Spider-Man newspaper strip.

They have been married with children in two alternate universes:

In the Spider-Girl comic universe, they are parents to May and Benjamin.

In the Renew Your Vows comic universe, they are parents to Anna

The Beautiful Origin of Mary Jane and Peter Parker's Relationship

Mary Jane Watson has been a major romantic interest of Peter Parker since her first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #42. Even though many Marvel fans today see Gwen Stacy as Peter's true love, the fans back then preferred MJ. Today, we're going through the origin and history of Mary Jane and Peter's romantic relationship from the Death of Gwen Stacy, their first kiss, clones, and those famous door clicks. It's been a crazy ride.

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Stan Lee cracked me up.

in this youtube video

He is talking about the creation of Mary Jane Watson and Gwen Stacy.

Stan tells

He and other writers created a girl, Gwen Stacy who Stan thought will eventually become the future wife of Peter Parker/Spider-Man.

Just for fun, they introduced another Mary Jane Watson

Even though they were fictitious girls,

once they started writing them and their dialog,

Mary Jane suddenly had all the personality and Gwen was just a nice girl.

Mary Jane was the one with the fiery personality and she was hip and everything, and they couldn't control that.

They couldn't make Gwen exciting and personable as Mary Jane even though they tried.

It was like they were living creatures and they couldn't control them.

Maybe he shouldn't told that because maybe that showed they were lousy writers and artists.

After they killed off Gwen Stacy's father, Captain Stacy, Stan came back from a 2 week London trip and found out that Stan's fellow writer Jerry Conway killed off Gwen Stacy.

Stan Lee pointed out something that he wished had been done in the Spider-Man movies that had Mary Jane but wasn't done:

Peter Parker's Aunt May always wanted Peter to meet a girl next door that was a very nice girl,

Most boys would run a mile if their mothers tell them that they want them to meet a nice girl.

Most teenage boys don't want to meet a girl nice.

They want to meet a sexy, fun girl.

Peter kept avoiding.

He tried to do everything that he could do avoid meeting Mary Jane until May made him stay when she knew that Mary Jane was coming.

well...he hit the jackpot. heh

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There is one thing that I don't understand about the writing.

If Stan Lee intended for Gwen to be Peter's future wife, then why did the writers have Peter's Aunt May setting up Peter up with Mary Jane?

If Aunt May approved of her, then maybe she knew what was best for Peter.

Maybe Aunt May knew that Mary Jane was the one for Peter.

After dinner, May and her next door neighbor and friend, Anna are observing and happily commenting on the interactions between Peter and Mary Jane.

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j

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#231 Posted by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

I know The Clone Saga is one of things that fans hate the most.

I definitely like these scenes from the Clone Saga that shows Mary Jane as the wife that loves and believes in Peter.

She shows a lot of faith, courage and strength in these scenes.

Peter is programmed by the Jackal to kill her, and Mary Jane helped him overcome the programming.

took a lot of brains and a lot of guts - Ben thought

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#232 Posted by knightwriteri (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@glaucus: Good post Yeah most people say that Revelations was the point that Peter and MJ's marriage became invincible but I think it's fair to say it was Time Bomb.

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#233 Edited by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

There are other things to point out.

In regards to how powerful,deep the love is between Peter and Mary Jane and their strong connection, we can look to One More Day (which I hate for it being obvious editorial agenda-driven) storyline that was about a demonic pact that ended the marriage to save May as well as restore Peter's secret identity as Spider-Man which he revealed to the world which led to May getting shot.

Mephisto:

"Let me explain something to you, Mrs Parker.

Have you thought for a second to ask yourselves why?

Why I chose you two out of all people?

It's because yours is the rarest love of all.

Pure, unconditional, made holy in the eyes of he who I hate most.

A love like yours comes about but once in a millennia and to take that away from him...to deny him....is a victory like none other imaginable."

Dialog between Mary Jane and Peter

Mary Jane said:

"I know, in my heart of hearts, that you and I were always meant to be together. Whatever he throws at us, whatever he does, whatever he undoes, it doesn't matter.

Because whatever he does to pull us apart would have to be bigger and stronger than what brought us together and kept us together, no matter what happened.

And there's no power in the universe big enough for a job like that. Not the devil, not God, not anybody.

We'll find each other again, and we'll be together again, I know we will. And I am always right about these things, right?"

Peter: "Right"

"I love you, Mary Jane Parker."

Mary Jane: "And I love you, Peter Parker."

In Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #8,

Mary Jane asks Peter if he still loves Gwen.

Peter tells her "Of course."

Then they are in embrace.

Peter looks at Mary Jane and tells her that he loves her more than he ever loved Gwen.

He also tells her that Gwen was his past and Mary Jane is her future.

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#234 Posted by ZariusII (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

@glaucus MJ's speech in OMD is why I really believe the RYV versions are the real ones, and what really happened to them when they vanished. They were reborn in another reality and found each other all over again

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#235 Edited by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

As a Mary Jane fan, I believe that Sins Past was an unnecessary story that made Gwen look bad.

There was no need for it.

Mary Jane Watson was already cemented as the iconic love interest of Peter Parker/Spider-Man with his being his wife for a long time.

Mary Jane was already much more popular than Gwen, and that made it easy to kill off Gwen. Most of the fans wanted Mary Jane for the girlfriend any way, but Stan Lee made Gwen Peter's girlfriend. Gerry Conway always thought Mary Jane was Peter's One True Love.

Gwen Stacy was Stan Lee's choice of Peter's Love of his life.

Mary Jane Watson was the people's choice of Peter's Love of his life.

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#236 Edited by ItsaWorld (2376 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys, lets just make a thread for MJ being Peter's greatest Love

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#237 Posted by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

@zariusii:

"MJ's speech in OMD is twhy I really believe the RYV versions are the real ones, and what really happened to them when they vanished. They were reborn in another reality and found each other all over again"

If RYV are the real versions? What about the 616 versions? Aren't they the real versions too?

Maybe their souls split like Peter and Mary Jane's soul halves stayed in 616 universe and their other soul halves reincarnated in the RYV universe and found each other all over again.

In the fight when they fought the regent when Mary Jane was wearing the Iron Spider , the 616 versions experienced Deja Vu from the experiences when Peter and Mary Jane fought the regent in the RYV universe.

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#238 Edited by ZariusII (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

@glaucus Correct, they sensed the other part of themselves...meaning they and the RYV versions are connected. Whether they're split like Lois and Clark were or not remains to be seen, and it may be a while before Slott revisits that story. That came about all in a year that also included callbacks to OMD in Spidey/Deadpool.

The split halfs each reflect the best and worst of Peter and MJ's personality traits [core canon being the worst of course], and RYV Parkers have the commitment and maritial maturity, but are often impulsive and reckless too.

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#239 Edited by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to show few more examples of how deep and strong Peter and Mary Jane's love had been.

The following are from The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #53

They are about Peter and Mary Jane making love for the first time since their separation after Peter rescued her from a mutant that held Mary Jane prisoner for months after making people think that she was dead when she blew up a plane that she was supposed to on.

Mary Jane speaking to Peter:

"I came back for you, Peter. I love you. For everything you are, for everything you think you're not. Distracted or not, tired or not, you're my lover. My husband. And the dearest thing in the world to me. "

"Let me prove it."

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Peter's thinking about Mary Jane while she is sleeping after making love:

I can bench press a car.

I can climb up the side of a wall. Fight twenty guys to a standstill. Swing across chasms thirty stories deep. Feel a bullet coming my way and move fast enough to get clear.

But something in her makes me gentle. Makes me shy. Makes me strong. Makes me happy to be alive.

And maybe that's it. Maybe that's what it really comes down to.

She makes me. Makes me whole.

She completes me.

So here's the thing, God...I know I complain a lot, and I know that you and me, we've got issues, but right now, just for tonight...

Thank you for her.

Thank you.

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#240 Edited by amazingfantasy (2497 posts) - - Show Bio

Reposting what I said on the other thread, here are my 2cents... I don't think there's a clear answer and don't think it ever will. What I do think is that some Peter/MJ fans downplay Gwen too much, and it's happening here again. I don't know and never got exactly why since MJ has lots of spotlights and Gwen never took any from her, not even after her recent boost (Quite the opposite actually with the existence of RYV), but maybe it's because they feel 'threatened' since Gwen's the only one who can actually give MJ a fight? We know that no other love interest can stand up to MJ, not even Felicia. But Gwen always could and even more with her recent considerable popularity boost... It's more about the possibility rather than what's actually happening. Tbh, I'm team Peter/MJ all the way and I don't care for Peter/Gwen especially on 616 but I'd read a story about them if it's written well, AU or not, like Spider-Man: Blue. Heck as long as they don't throw MJ under the bus they could create an RYVish universe with Gwen for all I care lol. But anyways, enough of why I think this happens, here's a more detailed and thoughtful perspective, addressing as much as I can, from someone who does prefer MJ to Gwen both as a character and as Peter's girl:

**Mostly, I'll address Gwen's side but also a bit of MJ's. This is because of this last page is full of MJ's defence since the forum isn't nearly as popular as it used to be, so it doesn't hurt to have a more recent POV on this. I'll also address arguments that are used in these discussions even if they weren't shown/said here on this thread.**

01- I genuinely believe that Peter loved both of them, equally or not. Had Gwen stayed alive he'd never go for MJ, not because he didn't/wouldn't love her but he loves and respects Gwen enough so MJ wouldn't get into his mind in the first place. The same would happen if hypothetically he was with MJ first, or Gwen somehow came back to life... In fact I think Peter told this to the Gwen's clone in the second clone saga. It was not about him loving MJ more but because he was already with her. This is Peter Parker people, he wouldn't dump the girl he loves for another, even if he also loved and could easily have a future with said other girl (This also explains House of M, it's not about him loving Gwen more). He'd respect and stay faithful to the one he's with because that's the kind of guy he is. I feel like this is a huge point and not said enough.
Edit: Going a bit deeper, even if he loves either Gwen or MJ more... He'd still love the other enough to not end his relationship. Because regardless of who you prefer I think we can all agree that Parker loves them both to the point of marriage and spending life together, even if he indeed loves one of them more. So let's say that his love for MJ is a 10 and for Gwen is 9.5, but he got with Gwen first, as it usually is. That 9.5 is still more than strong enough for Peter to be with her, for the rest of their lives (probably not even aware that he'd love MJ more because he loves Gwen enough to not even consider it. All this in my imaginary scenario, of course). Or he simply loves them equally so whoever comes first simply 'wins', just logic. So, Ironic as it sounds, I don't think this argument that he stayed with either of 'em in whatever reality thus he likes one of them more really works (Nor do I think we have a definite way of knowing tbh).

02- And yes, I'm aware that there's one scan on Peter saying he loves MJ more. But to begin with, I think that "Love more" is a rather silly thing to say when talking about this stuff, but okay, I'll go with that regardless. To answer to this, there are also scans that put the benefit of the doubt, even by the JMS who we all know loves the couple. There's also a scan of Peter saying nothing he has with anyone else will ever be good as it was with Gwen. And of course House of M, which is a reality made to let Peter be happy by using his deep desires, he's married to Gwen (among multiple others like Uncle Ben being alive, Parker using his intellect, being famous, no money problems, etc), so by comparing it with that Peter line at the very least we got an inconsistency here.
So I'll tell you what's important here: Consistency. It's very very important. Peter said that he loves MJ more once. That is not consistent with the overall treatment of the two relationships, what usually happens is that there is no clear answer. The same way the stories that implied he liked Gwen more do not settle this. Just because something happens once, in comics from all places, does not make it true. Battle forum guys can easily confirm that lol :p And that using something that happened once or twice argument can easily backfire against Peter/MJ fans, so I'd be careful with that.

03- A very important point now, what people also forget is that in the majority if not all of alternate realities that Peter ends up with MJ, The Night Gwen Stacy Died happened. That is very essential. It's not like Gwen was alive and well to compete with MJ, but that's not even the point, never was. The point is that Gwen's death is basically what triggers the serious relationship between Peter and MJ to begin with. In House of M they aren't even close. Neither in Spider-Gwen's reality. She didn't even appear in Spidey I think. Again, the trope is usually that Even if he does love MJ more, they usually only get close if Gwen dies. And please don't address this with an AU that breaks the rule, I'm not talking about the exception but the rule. Again, consistency is important.

For example, Ult. Spider-Man is an exception, but it's also an exception for lots of things, so overall it doesn't hurt/supports the rule. MJ is undoubtedly endgame there, and 'beat' Gwen even tho she was alive, but the funny thing is that Gwen doesn't even get second place I believe, Kitty/Shadowcat is the one who does (Who is one of Bendis' pets, surprise surprise lol). She was much more invested, from the start, in Peter than Ult. Gwen ever was, still loved him and wanted to marry him two years after his death...While by then Gwen had very clearly moved on, less affected and healthy. So yeah. And may I also remind that both of them are rather different from their 616 counterparts, thus making it even more distinct and supporting the rule. Peter and MJ are childhood friends for example, so they've known each other whole lives which led to MJ liking him from the start, something that definitely played a considerable part there. Anyways if I was gonna do this and pick important differences from the Ultiverse the examples would be endless, so again, the exception not the rule. It also kinda supports my point of him being with one of them first, in this case MJ.

3.5- A bit random but Peter apparently also plays with thoughts of Gwen being alive, not simply being alive but them doing things as a couple, and this is while he was married to MJ. Didn't really seem to fit in any of the others points, this one seems to closest, so just throwing it out there. lol

04- Speaking of AUs, a constant trope is that a reality in which Gwen lived Peter ended up with her. Peter himself seems to be aware of this as when he's in a new reality he wonders whether that version of him will end up with Gwen or MJ (And that was when he was with Carlie! LOL). On pure quantity of realities they're together, I believe MJ wins... And even two on-goings, including the biggest female marvel superhero run, had them together. But what those two, and most if not all these other realities, had... Is Gwen dead, which brings back 03 once again.

05- I don't think I need to touch things like Sins Past, most if not all are reasonable enough to know that's BS. But just gonna say that if anyone uses that to downplay Gwen it's very easy to do the same to MJ and her fans should know that very well. Just gonna say that. lol And even in Sins Past Peter's love for Gwen is showed very strongly, and there was no sign of it being diminished one bit even after he found out about Gwen and Norman (Eww... LOL). JMS even threw a line there saying he possibly loved Gwen more.

Interestingly enough the story was actually very strong on Peter/Gwen ironically as it sounds, and in the story the thing was treated more as another of Osborn's evil acts rather than put flaws in Gwen (And there's of course the fact that kids were supposed to be Peter's which might explain it, but y'know, editorial... lol). But regardless, using bad storylines and inconsistent moments is not cool people!

06- As far as characters goes, Peter/Gwen and Gwen herself are usually referred to as boring, but that... Is irrelevant. Her being boring or not (which is subjective, but even if she is, the point stands) wouldn't make her any less the love of Peter's life (again, assuming she is). But aside from that, Gwen never got the chance to develop like MJ did. A lot of the arguments for MJ's comes in the following years as she grew as a character (including some retcons here and there). Gwen never had any of those, and MJ didn't have the smashing majority of the arguments used as for why she's the best back when Gwen died. It's a bit unfair to compare. Which is why Gwen's usually remembered so fondly and as 'perfect' girl sometimes, it's basically the only way to 'fight back' and establish her position, not only "against" MJ but overall. Also, Stan vouched for her! LOL

07- Gwen hated Spider-Man... But that's not relevant. It's clear that Gwen, as one who can give MJ a run for her money, would not be 'taken out' by something like that. On the AU in which he rescued Gwen, Not only Gwen immediately forgave Peter but she also agreed to marry him right there (On the first try! LOL). And of course in the recent CC it was obviously portrayed that Gwen would've forgiven Peter and their relationship would go on. And of course House of M in which Peter's desires are made real. Possibly more. I don't think this really needed to be addressed tho, but some like to nitpick on that, so there's that. MJ, AU Gwens and even Carlie Cooper accepted Peter as Spidey, it'd be silly to think that for some reason 616 Gwen wouldn't do so.

Edit: 7.5- On that note, and I guess it's what I'm trying to say with those last two which I'm not sure was clear, it's that there's very little to nothing that shows that Peter/Gwen relationship wouldn't have worked but I think we all know that. They'd marry, have kids and all that stuff. 06 and 07 are kinda my point, with Gwen being portrayed as great/'perfect', other sources showing she'd accept Spider-Man, still love Peter and all that. It usually ends because tragedy hits, not because their relationship had anything wrong. Peter has said more than once times how he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, marry, have kids and etc, you know how it goes. They'd simply work, what I'm trying to say. I think we all agree on that even those who prefer MJ, but again I'm just addressing as much as I can and I have seen nitpicking on that, saying that their relationship would fail even if she was alive or something along those lines. When it's quite the opposite thus this point, and it's simply worth pointing out I guess.

08- Out of universe, while TASM definitely gave Gwen a considerable boost and lots of fans, I think there's no way to know but I still think MJ comes out on top, at least as being known as Spidey's girl. But, the overall perception is not the point here, which is debating who's the true love. Just because the majority of the public arguably thinks so, doesn't mean they're correct... Or incorrect.

09- Lastly, There a few universes where MJ triumphs and others where MJ doesn't. Others when Peter isn't even close with either of them or just one, Spider-Gwen's as an example. He's deeply connected with Gwen but like didn't even interact with MJ. I've already mentioned here but there also realities where he ends up with Gwen. And it also connects to the overall point/03, in which that Gwen is dead so she's not there to 'compete' and that her death is what causes Peter/MJ to get close in the first place.

10- And of course, there's the fact that this is a rivalry. Like a lot of others CB rivalries, there is no clear answer here. Just like there still isn't an 'official' answer about Superman vs Batman, Hulk vs Thor, etc. There will keep being evidence to the both sides, writers who favor one side to another, etc precisely to generate debates. But, overall, there will never be a clear answer. No matter how fans push, even the most obsessive ones, if you look at rationally there will never be a clear answer. Same applies here. But regardless, just to finish, Gwen is more than a match for MJ, both in and out of universe, and even if she truly isn't an equal to MJ as far as Peter's love goes, she undoubtedly gets the silver medal. Naturally, same would apply to MJ if roles were reversed.

Okay, I think that's it. Forgive any mistakes or anything that seems out of place, my mistake while editing if it happened lol. I think I addressed most of what I wanted but probably missed a few stuff, but eh. I tend to stay out of this type of discussion... Ship wars scare me LOL But, felt like it had to be said. I tried to be as polite and rational as I could here, so if you're going to answer this I'd appreciate if you did the same, kind internet person. lol Lastly, here are some scans that shows/supports a few of my points and simply food for thought:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7Gallery image 8Gallery image 9Gallery image 10Gallery image 11Gallery image 12Gallery image 13Gallery image 14Gallery image 15Gallery image 16Gallery image 17Gallery image 18Gallery image 19Gallery image 20Gallery image 21Gallery image 22Gallery image 23Gallery image 24Gallery image 25Gallery image 26Gallery image 27Gallery image 28Gallery image 29Gallery image 30Gallery image 31
For those interested, here's a few stories about and/or that "support" Peter/Gwen, some shown in the scans above: Spider-Man: Blue, House of M, House of M: Spider-Man, What If Spider-Man had rescued Gwen Stacy, ASM v4 #23, and, ironic as it sounds, Sins Past kinda fits too... (Read point 05 in case of doubt lol)

So, to conclude, my overall point is: Personally, I believe he liked them both equally, and even if he didn't, I don't think it can be proved for either side, don't think it ever will, and I don't really care. There's genuinely space for both of them. As long as one the sides isn't unfairly treated and I get my share, I'm happy and 100% cool with it.

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#241 Edited by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

Gwen was no way close to being popular as Mary Jane before she got killed off in the comics.

It didn't matter how interesting she was made to the fans, Mary Jane was liked better. The fans wanted Mary Jane to be the girlfriend instead of Gwen which was Stan Lee's original choice for Peter's future wife.

Stan Lee even mentioned this, and he created both characters.

He made the development of their characters out to be something that was out of their hands even though they were writing and drawing them.

It was like fate led Mary Jane to be Peter's ultimate love interest.

I do think that killing off Gwen without his knowledge was messed up.

Gwen only got popular from being dead, the Amazing Spider-Man movies, and the alternative universe Gwen comics.

House of M is reality where Peter becomes the Green Goblin.

I really don't get the big deal about House of M.

I want to reiterate that Sins Past is screwed up story line that was unnecessary and crappy to make Gwen look bad.

One Moment In Time was an editorial agenda-driven story line to make Mary Jane look weak.

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#242 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

@glaucus said:

Gwen was no way close to being popular as Mary Jane before she got killed off in the comics.

It didn't matter how interesting she was made to the fans, Mary Jane was liked better. The fans wanted Mary Jane to be the girlfriend instead of Gwen which was his original choice for Peter's future wife.

Stan Lee even mentioned this, and he created both characters.

He made the development of their characters out to be something that was out of their hands even though they were writing and drawing them.

It was like fate led Mary Jane to be Peter's ultimate love interest.

I do think that killing off Gwen without his knowledge was messed up.

Gwen only got popular from being dead, the Amazing Spider-Man movies, and the alternative universe Gwen comics.

House of M is reality where Peter becomes the Green Goblin.

I really don't get the big deal about House of M.

I want to reiterate that Sins Past is screwed up story line that was unnecessary and crappy to make Gwen look bad.

One Moment In Time was an editorial agenda-driven story line to make Mary Jane look weak.

Exactly. Peter and MJ's get together was like life. Completely organic and unexpected. Sometimes what you think you want, especially at first, isn't exactly what's best.

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#243 Posted by TheHeaven_Guardian10 (2520 posts) - - Show Bio

@glaucus said:

Gwen was no way close to being popular as Mary Jane before she got killed off in the comics.

It didn't matter how interesting she was made to the fans, Mary Jane was liked better. The fans wanted Mary Jane to be the girlfriend instead of Gwen which was Stan Lee's original choice for Peter's future wife.

Stan Lee even mentioned this, and he created both characters.

He made the development of their characters out to be something that was out of their hands even though they were writing and drawing them.

It was like fate led Mary Jane to be Peter's ultimate love interest.

I do think that killing off Gwen without his knowledge was messed up.

Gwen only got popular from being dead, the Amazing Spider-Man movies, and the alternative universe Gwen comics.

House of M is reality where Peter becomes the Green Goblin.

I really don't get the big deal about House of M.

I want to reiterate that Sins Past is screwed up story line that was unnecessary and crappy to make Gwen look bad.

One Moment In Time was an editorial agenda-driven story line to make Mary Jane look weak.

Don't forget at the end of Superior when Slott had MJ along with Charlie. Basically had a girl chat, bashing Peter.

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#244 Posted by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

@theheaven_guardian10:

I knew that things were going to be very bad between Peter and Mary Jane at the end.

Distancing Mary Jane from Peter has been an obvious thing.

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#245 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

@glaucus said:

@theheaven_guardian10:

I knew that things were going to be very bad between Peter and Mary Jane at the end.

Distancing Mary Jane from Peter has been an obvious thing.

Its an atrocious thing. When Slott prevented their get back together in Superior, that was horrid.

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#246 Posted by Glaucus (567 posts) - - Show Bio

I have decided to make a Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson facebook page

I just made it today, and so there are no posts yet. There will be a lot within the month.

Please feel free to give input including what I should use for cover photo and profile pic.

https://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

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#247 Posted by TheHeaven_Guardian10 (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
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#248 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio
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#249 Posted by QuilSniv (387 posts) - - Show Bio

@ursaber said:
@theheaven_guardian10 said:

@ursaber: It made me physically ill.

It made me up to chuck. And Superior 31 was Slott shitting in my mouth.

I dunno, that page where Green Goblin realizes that it's the real Spidey instead of Doc Ock behind the mask was some serious payoff for me. I don't like the scene with MJ, but I've been working on not letting just one part of a comic get to me. Like I said, I don't like the part where MJ screws off, but Peter coming back and thrashing the crap out of Goblin Nation was worth it.

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#250 Posted by ursaber (9624 posts) - - Show Bio

@quilsniv: That page alone when Goby realizes Peter is back is the ONLY good thing in that comic. Everything else is trash, a pile of crap.

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