OMD / Spidey Love Interests (discussion with Ursaber)

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iamre321

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Ok @ursaber I've recently caught up to the latest ASM issue and lot of people are thinking that Kindred is either Carlie Cooper, Pre-OMD Part of Peter, or Pre-OMD Harry.

With all this talk about OMD I figured I wanted to bring up our old discussion on https://comicvine.gamespot.com/x-men/4060-3173/forums/jean-grey-returns-thoughts-on-scott-x-emma-x-jean-1916188/?page=18

Figured this would be a better place for it.

I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of hate for this but figured I might as well tell my experience / perspective.

I'm a huge Spider-man fan, he's my favorite hero and I started reading him many years ago. The first comics I ever read of him were the original Stan Lee stories. I read approx. from 1st issue to 121. After that stopped for a while reading issues here and there, like ASM 300. I started reading again around issue 500 so ezekiel, sins past, molten man, avengers, etc... and then Civil war, OMD, and Brand New Day.

Now here's what I saw while reading the issues:

First there was Betty Brant, pretty ordinary office girl, kinda dull relationship that didn't last too long.

Next there was Gwen Stacy who I personally believe to be the best one. When they introduced her Peter was having some personal problems and there was some misunderstanding. Because of that she kinda had this love/hate thing going on with him. I know nowadays the new Spider-gwen is like a punk rock rebel girl but the original Gwen was kinda portrayed early on as the hot girl that everyone wanted to date and she had those mean girl vibes too. To me I thought it was really cute when they finally ended up together; the nerd and the popular hot girl. I always liked their relationship and thought it was really nice. Even though he had issues and wasn't always the perfect boyfriend and always busy with his Spider-man stuff , she always stuck by his side no matter what. (Also in House of M they are married so...) And then they killed her off.

All I remember from MJ was that while Peter was dating Gwen and MJ was dating Harry, MJ would always flirt with Peter even when he told her to stop and she would do it in front of Harry and it drove Harry to start taking drugs... Like wtf.... So to be honest I never really liked her character that much and the whole nerd/supermodel thing had already been done with Gwen. (Also the Rami movies didn't really help).

Then after Gwen died, he dated around a while I think before getting together with MJ. Yeah I just never read those issues where they got together, dated, and then married which is why I never really shipped them or hated OMD like a lot of other people.

Here's the thing a lot of people who don't know what they are really talking about would say "Toby and Andrew were too old to play Spider-man, he's supposed to be a kid..." Not really because they actually didn't have him in high school for long, they did in ultimate but in the main 616 he actually graduated pretty quickly. But the thing I do agree with is that marriage does age him up and tie him down. Its weird seeing a married older guy quipping and such but a young bachelor doing that fits more. Also he didn't really have a choice, his aunt was dying and MJ was the one who pushed him to do it. The other thing I feel is a big part of Spidey's character is his secret identity, him hiding it and balancing his two lives. Civil war ruined that and OMD restored it.

I really liked Brand New Day, as a reader who hasn't read for a long time it was really easy to get into. Kinda like a soft reboot. No need to read or know hundreds of issues of backstory. I could just jump right in. The art was great, the story, the villains, etc... all of it was great and probably not possible without OMD.

And I really don't get why you hate Carly so much. I know you read more of the MJ issues and so their relationship means more to you but it is what it is. I thought Carly was cute and a cool new character. She was a science nerd like Peter so they had that in common. I feel like the built up was good and the relationship was also pretty nice.

So yeah... that's just my two cents. No need for anger anymore cause Peter ended up back with MJ anyway.

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ZariusII

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#2  Edited By ZariusII
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Any post that says Gwen was the best interest, has selectively negative things to say about MJ rather than be objective about her history (largely because you admit to not reading many issues that defined their relationship, which makes you look like an ignoramus), and likes a replacement goldfish like Carlie isn't worth paying attention to

Gwen had sex with Norman Osborn and had his babies, she also hated Spider-Man and blamed him for the death of her father. "Always by his side?" HAHAHAHAHA, Gwen dumped Peter several times, particular in instances where her father was threatened. Sorry pal, but you're being very wilfully negligent of all this. Gwen is not the best, nor is she the one.

House of M meant nothing and was largely Peter's "reward" for his guilt.

Carlie didn't support Peter as Spider-Man when she found out, in fact, she dumped him once it became clear to her. Being a scientist doesn't suddenly mean you have empathy with the person you share that interest in either...just as having a superhero girlfriend in Mockingbird was no guarantee of a meaningful relationship either.

You could have told every story in Brand New Day with the marriage.

MJ 'pushed Peter to do it' because Peter guilt-tripped her, he also still agreed to it.

If marriage were perceived as "dragging Peter down", it wouldn't have been a sustained premise for 20 yeas (32 if you count Renew Your Vows and the newspaper strip) and fans would stop begging for it's return, nor would a fresh engagement even be brought up in the most recent issues.

Indeed, no need for anger because...

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ursaber

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#3  Edited By ursaber

@iamre321: i disagree with that, but as you said, there's no reason whatsoever to get triggered or angered. Its a different opinion/preference, so i respect it. I no longer take issue with fellow Spider-Man fans over who is the best love interest.

also i agree with my pal @zariusii and his lengthy and detailed response to your post. Minus the video posts that exaggerate effect.

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ursaber

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iamre321

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iamre321

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@ursaber: I just feel like as fellow Spidey fans we can have civil discussions without acting like that guy. I blocked him. No need to be so triggered or rude like you said.

Also most people hate the Gwen / Norman thing and it was an unnessary and out of character thing for her that I hope they go back and retcon. Her hating Spider-man was also really unnecessary and only there to create drama. Gwen should've been the one he settled down with.

To me even Pre-SJW Ms. Marvel would've been preferred over MJ.

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ursaber

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@iamre321 said:

@ursaber: I just feel like as fellow Spidey fans we can have civil discussions without acting like that guy. I blocked him. No need to be so triggered or rude like you said.

Also most people hate the Gwen / Norman thing and it was an unnessary and out of character thing for her that I hope they go back and retcon. Her hating Spider-man was also really unnecessary and only there to create drama. Gwen should've been the one he settled down with.

To me even Pre-SJW Ms. Marvel would've been preferred over MJ.

I wouldn't go so far as too block someone. @zariusii is one of the leading fellows here in the Spider-Man forums. Sometimes he gets really passionate about something and goes all out.

Gwen hating Spidey as a result of her father's death and his involvement is understandable and it was created to make drama for Peter. The Gwen Norman thing, I don't know what that was, but we don't talk about it anymore. Its like it never happened.

Ms Marvel over MJ? NO! Black Cat is the only other significant other I would want with Peter. But Ms Marvel, be it Carol or Kamala or anyone else, it would be BAD!

-

There's something else I want to point out about Gwen and why she's not Peter's great love but merely his first one. The MOST IMPORTANT contribution Gwen Stacy ever made to Spider-Man's story, was her death! That's all she is remembered for. Nothing more than that. Because of it people tend to look back at the relationship of Peter and Gwen which they barely recall as a kind of perfect romantic fantasy.

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blackspidey2099

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Isn't Kamala like 15 years younger than Peter... ew

I assume he was talking about Carol though, and low-key I totally think that was a great pair-up before like Civil War II and stuff. My favorite pairs overall are definitely Felicia and then MJ as a close second though.

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ZariusII

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#9  Edited By ZariusII

Anyone who blocks me for stating clear facts to their face is clearly insecure of their own arguments holding water or can't string together a successful counter-point and therefore must retreat.

Also, I noticed he's trying to hide behind excuses "Gwen hating Spider-Man was all just unneccersary drama, it doesn't count...my Gwen would never have sex with Norman ever, it was just drama, she can't be an ill fit for Peter, she just can't, waaaah"

Kid, GROW UP, like it or not, those developments all helped expose Gwen for what she was and what she will always be in the grand scheme. An overly emotional basket case and daddy's girl who betrayed Peter and slept with his arch enemy. She never had Peter's back the way MJ did. She never supported Spider-Man and she slept with the Green Goblin. Fans can be as irate with it as they want, but IT HAPPENED, you can't erase that, you can only ignore it. If you think it didn't happen just because it isn't mentioned, sorry, that's just flat out denying the truth. Gwen DESERVED Sins Past.

MJ goes from strength to strength, all of her worst moments are later explained away rationally, even her years at odds with Peter are softened by her speech in OMD where she said their love for one another would override whatever Mephisto did to them, which has now come to pass. Gwen will never have a moment like that.

Even if you count her resurrection in Clone Conspiracy, Gwen told Peter she always felt that she would lose him to MJ and was hurt at the time that Peter wasn't with her. That also probably played a great deal in Peter reconnecting with MJ...because Gwen essentially gave them her blessing. That's all her revivals end up doing....to champion the pairing of Peter and MJ.

Stay in school kid, the grown ups are talking.

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iamre321

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#10  Edited By iamre321

@ursaber: But you see the way he's acting. Why would I ever want to talk with him?

Lol he calls me a kid and yet got super angry and butt hurt over a simple discussion about fictional characters, goes on long written out tirades about it and even includes videos lol... I'm the immature one right...

Also Gwen getting with Norman was never intended by the original authors/creators, this was something that a new writer came in and retconned, which most people hate, I'm assuming someone will retcon it later down the line.

@zariusii That's not why I blocked you. I blocked you because you are a rude and unlikable person incapable of having a civil discussion and seems to have the maturity of a 5 year old.

Now moving on...

The whole Gwen hating Spider-man thing doesn't make any sense and was just to create drama. Doesn't make sense for her to hate the hero, Doc Ock is the one she should be hating. Also don't think she really hated Spider-man, when she cooled down it was more like she didn't want anything that reminded him of his father's death.

They only killed her off to sell issues and shock viewers. It was something significant and unheard of at the time. She deserved to live a long happy life with Peter. Peter only got with MJ long after Gwen died. If she hadn't, Peter and MJ never would've gotten together.

Also MJ had an advantage in that she already knew Peter was Spidey so the secret identity was never a huge problem. If Peter had revealed earlier to Gwen the truth, it would've been fine and much of the conflicts in their relationship would've been gone.

They are perfect for each other, the kind hearted guy with the kind hearted girl. The relationship was pure. Its recalled as a perfect romantic fantasy because it basically was.

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I liked Peter and Felicia too, Peter and Carly was a good couple too lol. If I were to rank it it would be:

1. Gwen

2. Black Cat

3. Carlie

4. Ms. Marvel (Carol)

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iamre321

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@blackspidey2099 said:

Isn't Kamala like 15 years younger than Peter... ew

I assume he was talking about Carol though, and low-key I totally think that was a great pair-up before like Civil War II and stuff. My favorite pairs overall are definitely Felicia and then MJ as a close second though.

Lol yes I was talking about Carol lol.

I thought it was a great pair too, I feel like a big part of Spider-man's character and his trouble with relationships is that he always has to keep his secret hidden but with Carol she would know both sides to him and he also doesn't have to worry about her getting taken hostage, hurt, etc...

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Back when she was much more attractive and likable.

I'm glad we can disagree but still have a civil discussion unlike some people on this site...

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ursaber

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#12  Edited By ursaber

@iamre321 said:

@ursaber: But you see the way he's acting. Why would I ever want to talk with him?

Lol he calls me a kid and yet got super angry and butt hurt over a simple discussion about fictional characters, goes on long written out tirades about it and even includes videos lol... I'm the immature one right...

Also Gwen getting with Norman was never intended by the original authors/creators, this was something that a new writer came in and retconned, which most people hate, I'm assuming someone will retcon it later down the line.

I liked Peter and Felicia too, Peter and Carly was a good couple too lol. If I were to rank it it would be:

1. Gwen

2. Black Cat

3. Carlie

4. Ms. Marvel (Carol)

Gwen and Norman's affair was JMS' idea which was made a mess through editorial interference. Originally Gwen was supposed to have Peter's kids until Quesada and editorial overruled it because it aged Peter Parker up.

As for Peter's love interests, there are only two that matter: Mary Jane and Black Cat.

In your ranking, I'd put Carol over Carlie.

-

As for Gwen, even if she knew Peter was Spider-Man, even if her story had gone down a different path, all of that will only ever be a What If. Her death was her only real long lasting contribution to Spider-Man, not her life.

For Mary Jane its the reverse. Her greatest contribution to Spider-Man has been her entire life.

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#13  Edited By ursaber

@zariusii: Gwen may have deserved Sins Past (or maybe not cause it was that very story that painted her in the light we see today) but Peter and MJ didn't.

And come on man, no need to be overly harsh on the new guy, who is also a recurring user in the X-Men forums which I frequent as well.

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iamre321

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@ursaber said:

@zariusii: Gwen may have deserved Sins Past (or maybe not cause it was that very story that painted her in the light we see today) but Peter and MJ didn't.

And come on man, no need to be overly harsh on the new guy, who is also a recurring user in the X-Men forums which I frequent as well.

@ursaber Thank you my friend. I don't understand why people with different opinions can't be civil. I mean Hope and I disagree a lot but we've always been respectful about it.

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@ursaber: Carol or Carlie both are ok with me.

Gwen didn't deserve Sins Past. She was an angel that was the perfect match for Peter. The fact that she cheated on Peter and lost her virginity to Osborn is such a dumb idea.

JMS is a good writer and his Spider-man run is great as is his Thor run. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Peter having kids. If JMS wanted to do something about the past haunting him he could've done something else (like Skin Deep was pretty good). Too bad Quesada and editorial messed it up and forever tainted his otherwise good run. I'm sure some writer is gonna retcon it somehow, kinda like how they retconned Juggernaut sleeping with She-hulk...

There's even a What-If where he saves her and reveals the truth to her, at first she's angry, but then they talk and she accepts him and they get married.

This is what should've happened.

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I may be biased since I didn't like her in the Rami movies but from the comics I read this is what I remember about MJ:

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This is what I remember from Gwen:

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Peter and Gwen are the best couple.

Gwen vs MJ:

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The winner is clear to me...

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iamre321

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Interesting Quesada interview:

Nope, I didn't need to. The history of why it came to be is pretty clear. But, before getting into that, let me point this out, because I think this is hysterical. There are those that say that OMD was an editorially created project when, in fact, it wasn't. However, the marriage of Peter and MJ was an editorially driven project. It had nothing to do with what was really going on in the books at the time and came completely from the top on down to the creators. The bottom line: It was a stunt. How come no one in fandom mentions this?

Anyway, the Spider-marriage, as conceived, didn't have anything to do with the comics. Here's how it happened.

Around 1986, circulation on the Spider-Man newspaper strip had begun to drop. Concerned about this, an editor from King Features had a conversation with Stan Lee about what they could do to generate new interest in the strip to get it picked up again by more papers. Somewhere during the course of that conversation, they hit upon the thing that newspaper strips have done for years to drum up interest -- marry off the lead characters.

So, at a certain point, Stan called up Marvel and let the folks there know that he was planning to marry Peter and Mary Jane in the newspaper strip at such-and-such a point. At the time, Mary Jane wasn't even dating Peter in the series, but [then EIC] Jim Shooter, not wanting the comics to get scooped by the newspaper strip or whatever, decided that the publicity surrounding the marriage (there was talk of a faux wedding ceremony taking place at Shea Stadium to commemorate the event) and the fact that this was Stan made it worth doing in the books as well.

The lead-up to the marriage is ridiculously rushed, as the creative team needed to move Peter and MJ from not dating to getting married in something like three months. So one issue opens up with Pete on top of a building musing about his life and what's wrong with it, and suddenly clicking on the notion that he should marry Mary Jane. He ends up proposing, following her back to Pittsburgh and learning about her upbringing in three issues. And then the wedding takes place. While the creators all did the best they could with the schedule, it was about as unconvincing a block of storytelling as was possible, especially given the pains that the Spidey creative teams had taken over the previous two years or so to indicate that Pete and MJ were no more than friends.

And at the time, most of the reactions in comic book stores was very much like what we're seeing now: This is fake, this is artificial, it's just a blatant media grab, they've ruined Spider-Man for all time, etc. But again, all of this somehow seems to be missing from any of the arguments that I hear with respect to the validity of the marriage and how OMD should never had happened.

https://www.cbr.com/the-one-more-day-interviews-with-joe-quesada-pt-3-of-5/

Also I get that JMS was trying to change the status quo but when they told him it had to be Norman, he should've just abandoned the idea or changed it.

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ursaber

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@iamre321 said:

@ursaber: Carol or Carlie both are ok with me.

Gwen didn't deserve Sins Past. She was an angel that was the perfect match for Peter. The fact that she cheated on Peter and lost her virginity to Osborn is such a dumb idea.

JMS is a good writer and his Spider-man run is great as is his Thor run. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Peter having kids. If JMS wanted to do something about the past haunting him he could've done something else (like Skin Deep was pretty good). Too bad Quesada and editorial messed it up and forever tainted his otherwise good run. I'm sure some writer is gonna retcon it somehow, kinda like how they retconned Juggernaut sleeping with She-hulk...

There's even a What-If where he saves her and reveals the truth to her, at first she's angry, but then they talk and she accepts him and they get married.

Your're limiting yourself to the relatively short period of the first hundred issues of Amazing Spider-Man but not taking into account the following hundreds and thousands of comics that came after wherein Mary Jane was the one who helped make Peter into a better man and better hero.

Gwen was BY DESIGN the perfect match for Peter who could do no wrong. Mary Jane on the other hand was not initially meant to be Peter's true love but it happened through incredible character development by Gerry Conway and subsequent writers. Mary Jane is a more dynamic character than Gwen, who to me, lacked a personality and identity that made her a fulfilling character. She was the quintesential girlfriend and that was the sole purpose of her existence.

Mary Jane on the other hand was Peter's equivalent. She had her own story, her own struggles, flaws and virtues. She was like Peter in the sense that they both hid their true selves behind masks. Peter behind Spider-Man, MJ behind her party girl free spirit persona. All to hide an inner pain and deeper trauma.

Together, Peter and MJ became even more dynamic fleshed out individuals who supported each other, completed each other and made the other into a better person than they used to be. MJ broke from her shell and fear of commitment and getting close to people, while Peter learned to rely on her and on his friends rather than taking on the world alone as Spider-Man and Peter Parker. MJ even became a useful aide in Peter's superhero lifestyle, actively helping him without powers through her own cunning and smarts.

There is no comic book that accentuates how great Peter and Mary Jane are together than the masterpiece of Spider-Man Parallel Lives.

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iamre321

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@ursaber: I'll check it out but unlikely to change my opinions. I mostly like Spider-man when Stan Lee was writing it.

I'll be honest because like I said before I mostly grew up reading those early issues and always saw myself in Peter and viewed Gwen as the perfect girlfriend so I really liked seeing him finally get with Gwen. I mean the nerdy guy and the pretty popular girl is always an interesting combination.

I do agree that they could've delved deeper into her character; there was some unexplored potential- I mean I don't know if they ever explained why the popular hot girl ended up being a science major, and then her dad was also the police captain so maybe could've been explored more. Her dad also really liked Peter and was happy he was with Gwen. But yeah they could've developed her character more kinda like Spider-gwen.

I wish Spidey was there when Goblin attacked her and could've protected her. I think that would've been more interesting; Spidey finally snaps and kills the Goblin ( I mean lets face it , he's his arch enemy and really dangerous but if Pete wanted to he could've easily snapped Goblin's neck) and then Gwen lives. Gwen gets more development, they stay together, etc... In fact Gwen was so popular in Mexico that they didn't kill her off and keep writing new stories with her.

I guess we'll see where this new Spider-man run takes us...

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iamre321

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@ursaber:

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Seriously how can people not like her?

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ursaber

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@iamre321: Gwen is not unlikable. She has her own following (and I don't mean Spider Gwen). But in comparison to the more developed, more dynamic Mary Jane Watson, she comes across as underwhelming.

I'd recommend you give my guide, the one I tagged you about Peter and MJ's entire relationship and marriage to see just how great the two are together. You will end up thinking "Gwen who?"

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ZariusII

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#21  Edited By ZariusII

@iamre321 Being selective again I see.

The more I read from you, the more I'm convinced you're just a kid or a troll.

There is no such thing in real life as an ideal couple/love story, and Marvel has always been perceived as the comic publisher that reflects real life...drama is a part of life, did your parents shelter that from you or something? God you're world view is so infantile, you should really go out into the world and date someone, because your idea of what a woman should act like does not match up with the reality of what simply IS. MJ is more reflective of people than Gwen was...flawed, has struggles, learns from them, matures with time, learns to stay committed, learns to grow, and stays faithful with only devil magic and insecurities occasionally getting in the way, but only ever briefly.

You can make excuses for Sins Past all you want, but the reality is it's canon now, you can't erase it, Marvel had that opportunity with the original outcome of OMD and didn't take it, they took the lesser of two wrongs and went with that, leaving Sins Past intact. In doing so, they highlighted just how important Peter and MJ had been together, a love so pure and significant that God approved of it, and one that the devil was required to break.

In order for that love to be defined, the one perceived by the Gwen stans had to be sacrificed. And thus it came to pass. Gwen's 'love' means little in comparison to Peter and MJ's love, and by having sexual relations with Norman, Gwen proved her commitment to Peter could not pass a major test

Those mexican comics didn't 'keep Gwen alive', they wrote stories set before she died and stopped just short of actually publishing her final issues.

Oh, and for someone who claims to agree with Quesada's theory that 'marriage ages Peter too much', you sure do love professing how much you'd love to see Peter and Gwen hitched...

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@ursaber I'm harsh on the guy because he's speaking blatant half-truths and denying crystal clear facts. You've read his comments, he's not going to change his mind and is biased towards Stan's "perfected" Gwen of the Silver Age, selectively choosing her best moments and deliberately ignoring all those sequences that expose her because he can't stomach 'drama'

He's not even a unique MJ critic, he's spouting the same old tired recycled crap all Gwen stans regurgitate, and all of them can be eaten for breakfast over these same hive-minded 'opinions'

He's only supporting Carlie and Carol as love interests because they're NOT MJ, not because he has a valid reason to like them as interests. He doesn't want to acknowledge MJ's longevity or consider her significence, likely because he knows she eclipses all of them and has done so again to his annoyance.

I respect people who can both respect ALL eras of Spider-Man, and can support Gwen but still freely admit that, objectively, she's not in MJ's league and that MJ is the superior interest.

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ursaber

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@zariusii said:

@ursaber I'm harsh on the guy because he's speaking blatant half-truths and denying crystal clear facts. You've read his comments, he's not going to change his mind and is biased towards Stan's "perfected" Gwen of the Silver Age, selectively choosing her best moments and deliberately ignoring all those sequences that expose her because he can't stomach 'drama'

He's not even a unique MJ critic, he's spouting the same old tired recycled crap all Gwen stans regurgitate, and all of them can be eaten for breakfast over these same hive-minded 'opinions'

He's only supporting Carlie and Carol as love interests because they're NOT MJ, not because he has a valid reason to like them as interests. He doesn't want to acknowledge MJ's longevity or consider her significence, likely because he knows she eclipses all of them and has done so again to his annoyance.

I respect people who can both respect ALL eras of Spider-Man, and can support Gwen but still freely admit that, objectively, she's not in MJ's league and that MJ is the superior interest.

As he said, he's mostly just read the Stan Lee era of ASM and not much of beyond. We both know there are people who are only specific era Spider-Man readers.

Do note that while we have a ton of evidence and history backing us up for why Peter and MJ are the best couple, we are also biased towards that relationship.

I agree with you on the Carlie and Carol statement you made.

Still I find it easier to reach and get to people by being more diplomatic than critical or otherwise the enmity held by the party I'm trying to reach will purposefully continue to fight back rather than try to understand and reach compromise.

As for your last statement, were bound to come across with people who no matter what simply prefer Gwen or another no matter what over Mary Jane and that's their inherent preference. And its ok even if we don't agree with it. Though I understand the passion you show, and my own argument about respect and understanding can be turned against me if I come across someone who genuinely believes OMD was a good story or that the devil divorce was justified lol

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#23  Edited By ZariusII

@ursaber That's really what triggered me, I feel he was trying to justify the devil divorce by agreeing with Quesada's philosophies.

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@ursaber said:

@iamre321: Gwen is not unlikable. She has her own following (and I don't mean Spider Gwen). But in comparison to the more developed, more dynamic Mary Jane Watson, she comes across as underwhelming.

I'd recommend you give my guide, the one I tagged you about Peter and MJ's entire relationship and marriage to see just how great the two are together. You will end up thinking "Gwen who?"

I mean I'll take a look and maybe be more understanding or sympathetic towards the relationship but I doubt that will sway me from Gwen. Everyone has their own bias and preferences. I'm just gonna ignore the other guy cause he's so triggered and butt hurt its dumb lol.

Like I said the Rami movies left a bad taste in my mouth for her character (different from comics I know) so I may be biased towards her. Also initially when Peter was sort of dating / hanging out between MJ and Gwen, he chose and preferred Gwen. Although I am curious as to what other reasonable Spidey fans think like @blackspidey2099

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@iamre321 said:
@ursaber said:

@iamre321: Gwen is not unlikable. She has her own following (and I don't mean Spider Gwen). But in comparison to the more developed, more dynamic Mary Jane Watson, she comes across as underwhelming.

I'd recommend you give my guide, the one I tagged you about Peter and MJ's entire relationship and marriage to see just how great the two are together. You will end up thinking "Gwen who?"

I mean I'll take a look and maybe be more understanding or sympathetic towards the relationship but I doubt that will sway me from Gwen. Everyone has their own bias and preferences. I'm just gonna ignore the other guy cause he's so triggered and butt hurt its dumb lol.

Like I said the Rami movies left a bad taste in my mouth for her character (different from comics I know) so I may be biased towards her. Also initially when Peter was sort of dating / hanging out between MJ and Gwen, he chose and preferred Gwen. Although I am curious as to what other reasonable Spidey fans think like @blackspidey2099

Its just that your perception of ASM is limited only to Stan Lee's ASM and not the enormity of Spider-Man comics that came after.

You may remain Pro Gwen but at least you'll remain so knowing you have the full picture of Spider-Man's relationships.

Gwen could have been molded into a dynamic character in her own right but she was killed off and it prevented that. That's history. And so it was MJ who became the transcendent definitive love interest and soulmate to our Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.

In fact, Sam Raimi's Spider-Man portrayed what was supposed to be Mary Jane more like Gwen Stacy TBH.

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#26  Edited By ZariusII

@ursaber I think history has proven the 'vintage' model for Gwen can't be moulded into anything all that interesting actually. Look at all the cloned comebacks she had over the years, including the most recent Clone Conspiracy (which boasted that the clones that came back had the original souls), one of the event's sole highlights was Mattie Franklin of all people more than Gwen was. Even Gwen standing up to the goblins felt forced, a lot of the 'badass Gwen' moments in the Clone Sagas felt so "tryhard", attempting to spin Gwen into something she wasn't, or didn't have the personality or interest from the writers to carry out.

Whenever a writer tries to put their best foot forward with Gwen, you just get the feeling they're stuck, like they can't conjure up anything of note for her. No wit, no sass, nothing. With MJ it comes naturally to all those writers, everything becomes very lively. Even MJ at her worst is more interesting than Gwen at her perceived 'idealistic best'. You can create a brighter day with MJ, you can create a storm with MJ, with Gwen...well, ideal puppy love doesn't provoke much reaction from modern readers, not unless it's in the rear-view mirror.

I should probably mention Gwen sided with a far-right activist after her father died. I'm sure he'd love to read about that.

I think the only interesting Gwens have been the ones in the excellent Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon (which doesn't end well, and I understand was never meant to last and that Peter would have ended up with MJ there too) and the Ultimate Universe (where Gwen goes from treating Peter like a kid brother, to ultimately dating him and realising it just doesn't work because he loves MJ too much), but, again, these Gwens weren't straight adaptations of the vintage silver age model.

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#27  Edited By iamre321

@ursaber: Here's the thing - I'm not saying MJ is a bad love interest, I know that, like you said, they developed her character and their relationship over the course of many years and will probably stay as the Endgame forever. I just prefer other love interests over her. I wish Gwen hadn't died and they were able to continue their relationship. Gwen's death was a significant moment in comics and fill probably never be undone and I agree, but in my opinion I liked her and Peter better together.

Also originally Aunt May was supposed to die, they should've just stuck with that and let Gwen live and then Gwen would've become the main girlfriend over the years.

Also here's a thought- If MJ doesn't flirt with Peter while with Harry, then Harry doesn't start taking drugs, then Norman doesn't flip out and go crazy when he sees Harry, then Goblin doesn't kidnap and kill Gwen....

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@ursaber:

If Gwen was still alive her character and relationship could've evolved even more.

Even in Spectacular Spider-man those two were endgame.

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Even with hotties like Liz and MJ around, Gwen was still the best.

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@ursaber: I will always stand by my Peter x Gwen ship. I will try to understand MJ more and the other ships but I will never waiver with my main one. What they had was special.

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@iamre321 said:

@ursaber: I will always stand by my Peter x Gwen ship. I will try to understand MJ more and the other ships but I will never waiver with my main one. What they had was special.

sure

to me what they had was, good for its time, but ultimately no longer a thing of consequence

her legacy is her death, that is all

she's been dead since 1973, cloned back several times, and her only successful modern comeback has been in he AU Spider-Gwen

Gwen Stacy, much like Uncle Ben, will remain an impactful death for Spider-Man

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#31  Edited By ZariusII

@iamre321 Peter and Gwen weren't intended to be endgame in Spectacular Spider-Man, before it was cancelled, it was planned for him and MJ to ultimately get together.

Jesus Christ son, even at the end of that very series, Peter and Gwen didn't get together. Gwen stayed with Harry, and Peter didn't end up with anyone. Did you even watch the show? Obviously not, you probably just found out about it and went for the first few youtube clips you could find.

Stop pretending things happened differently to fit your agenda. You are being systematically dismantled here by true fans who know what they're talking about.

The fact you won't budge from supporting a 'ship so clearly sunk by time, evolution and history demonstrates you don't have the maturity to comprehend reality.

Grow up kid, what Peter and Gwen had was nothing but heartbreak in the end, and nothing they had will ever eclipse what Peter feels for Mary Jane.

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@zariusii: "True fans" of Spider-man don't act the way you do.

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@ursaber:

Firstly I'm mostly gonna talk to you, that was the point of this post. This other guy makes Rick and Morty fans look sane lol.

Also in Spectacular Spider-man Peter and Gwen were gonna get together in the next season, they already confessed their feelings for each other but Harry used his father's death to guilt trip Gwen to staying with him. Eventually Peter and Gwen would've ended up together.

-

Now going back to what you said about only her death having significance.

Ehh I feel like you are somewhat diminishing her significance , she was his first love afterall.

In Sins Past MJ even says Peter loved Gwen just as much as herself , maybe even more. They had puppy love and a pure bond. Had Gwen not died, she would've been the one with Peter all these years not MJ, I know that's not what happened. And obviously you like the MJ relationship the most and I can understand and respect that but in my personal preference I would've liked it better if Gwen had lived, that's all.

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I prefer MJ to Gwen because MJ feels like a real person, much like Peter. They're both real people that naturally fell in love over time and eventually got married, whereas Gwen never felt real to me. She's fairly generic as a character, and doesn't often shine at all.

She was also clearly more selfish and less understanding than MJ ever was.

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@iamre321 said:

@ursaber:

Firstly I'm mostly gonna talk to you, that was the point of this post. This other guy makes Rick and Morty fans look sane lol.

Also in Spectacular Spider-man Peter and Gwen were gonna get together in the next season, they already confessed their feelings for each other but Harry used his father's death to guilt trip Gwen to staying with him. Eventually Peter and Gwen would've ended up together.

-

Now going back to what you said about only her death having significance.

Ehh I feel like you are somewhat diminishing her significance , she was his first love afterall.

In Sins Past MJ even says Peter loved Gwen just as much as herself , maybe even more. They had puppy love and a pure bond. Had Gwen not died, she would've been the one with Peter all these years not MJ, I know that's not what happened. And obviously you like the MJ relationship the most and I can understand and respect that but in my personal preference I would've liked it better if Gwen had lived, that's all.

if you wanted to talk just to me you could have just sent me a PM, or asked for my discord.

Yeah, Spectacular Gwen was one of the better interpretations of the character and they were going to get together. But that doesn't mean Peter and Gwen are the best or anything. Mary Jane was absolutely perfect in Spectacular. The voice actress was seductive, her voice enchanted me.

First loves aren't always the true loves of heroes. What's amazing about Peter and MJ is that they were never designed to end up together, yet they did through stellar writing and chemistry. That to me is much more significant than being intentionally written to be their perfect mates from the get go.

Peter is only in love, at that time, with Gwen's memory, not Gwen herself as she is no longer there. Unfortunately JMS failed to take into account previous happenings of Peter confirming Gwen was his first love but not his true love which is MJ.

No Caption Provided

It seems like ultimately this discussion is at its end.

You prefer Spider-Man with Gwen and I with MJ for our own reasons and preferences. That's the just of it.

Unfortunately for you and Gwen fans (I don't say this in a mocking tone), the ship of Peter and Gwen has sailed and they will never get together as the relationship ended in the 70's and marked a no turning back point in the life of Spider-Man.

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@ursaber:

if you wanted to talk just to me you could have just sent me a PM, or asked for my discord.

-Well mainly talking to you but also curious as to what other fellow Spider-man fans would say. I knew there would be people who would freak out and rage like that guy but I still want to hear what the reasonable civil ones have to say.

Yeah, Spectacular Gwen was one of the better interpretations of the character and they were going to get together. But that doesn't mean Peter and Gwen are the best or anything. Mary Jane was absolutely perfect in Spectacular. The voice actress was seductive, her voice enchanted me.

-I agree, that show was amazing. The voices, animation, etc... all of it was such a good unique retelling of Spider-man. MJ's voice was seductive, I liked Liz too and making her hispanic was nice too, Gwen as the fellow nerd and childhood friend who slowly grows close and falls in love with him was nice too. You gotta admit for a guy who is known as the class nerd he totally slayed with the ladies; Gwen, Liz, MJ, Black Cat...

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But yeah that show was amazing, heard they were gonna bring in Hobgoblin the next season...

First loves aren't always the true loves of heroes. What's amazing about Peter and MJ is that they were never designed to end up together, yet they did through stellar writing and chemistry. That to me is much more significant than being intentionally written to be their perfect mates from the get go.

-But didn't they just force them together for a rush wedding cause that was what was popular at the time?

It seems like ultimately this discussion is at its end.

You prefer Spider-Man with Gwen and I with MJ for our own reasons and preferences. That's the just of it.

Unfortunately for you and Gwen fans (I don't say this in a mocking tone), the ship of Peter and Gwen has sailed and they will never get together as the relationship ended in the 70's and marked a no turning back point in the life of Spider-Man.

- Yeah I know. Its unfortunate. I know she will never be back and will likely always go back to MJ but still Gwen was my personal favorite and the one I want him with. I'm glad we can have different opinions but still talk like this.

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@iamre321:

-Well mainly talking to you but also curious as to what other fellow Spider-man fans would say. I knew there would be people who would freak out and rage like that guy but I still want to hear what the reasonable civil ones have to say.

Forgive him, he can and is civil but, well, I suppose its too late.

-I agree, that show was amazing. The voices, animation, etc... all of it was such a good unique retelling of Spider-man. MJ's voice was seductive, I liked Liz too and making her hispanic was nice too, Gwen as the fellow nerd and childhood friend who slowly grows close and falls in love with him was nice too. You gotta admit for a guy who is known as the class nerd he totally slayed with the ladies; Gwen, Liz, MJ, Black Cat...

But yeah that show was amazing, heard they were gonna bring in Hobgoblin the next season...

The best part was the writing. Josh Keaton as Peter Parker Spider-Man was incredible. His line deliveries and his quips and wit were funny as hell. He's got to be my favorite voice actor for Spider-Man.

I think its on the nose how the nerdy kid gets all the ladies. Its been like that since the 60s. Its a common trope in entertainment by now.

Black Cat was also excellent in Spectacular. Hobgoblin is one of my top three spider villains. I want to do an arc in the current Spider-Man run about his return!

-But didn't they just force them together for a rush wedding cause that was what was popular at the time?

Yes and no. Peter and MJ were already together as a couple but then when Stan Lee hitched them in the newspaper strip at the suggestion of a fan in a comic con, Marvel decided to do it in the main comics as well and made an entire publicity event with mock actors of Mary Jane and Spider-Man getting married in Shia Stadium. It was phenomenal! Goes to show just how powerful Peter and Mary Jane are as a power couple.

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- Yeah I know. Its unfortunate. I know she will never be back and will likely always go back to MJ but still Gwen was my personal favorite and the one I want him with. I'm glad we can have different opinions but still talk like this.

Indeed. Its perfectly fine that you prefer Gwen over MJ. I prefer Lana Lang over Lois Lane for Superman, and even Talia al Ghul over Selina Kyle for Batman.

But still I do recognize that Lois Lane and Selina Kyle are the de facto primary true love interests of said heroes. The same goes for Mary Jane being Spider-Man's undisputed number one love interest.

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#38  Edited By ZariusII

@ursaber Lana Lang kind of briefly dropped off my radar after I saw how toxic her fans got during the Smallville years, plus there was those instances of her ruining her marriage to Pete Ross and sabotaging Lois and Clark's marriage just to get into Clark's pants in the 2000s. DC had a lot of bad writing back then. I like that Lana somewhat got a redemption arc taking care of Supergirl before Flashpoint, and then the whole Superwoman ordeal where Lana was influential in merging Lois and Clark's post-crisis and New 52 selves. I wish we could see her again, Bendis isn't using her right now.

As for Talia...I like her character too, and I wish she could be redeemed fully and that Bruce could marry both her and Selina (in some countries, such things are possible)

I don't get why so many use "rushed wedding" as a counter-argument to why Peter and MJ felt unearned, prior to that, the two of them were largely dating on and off, had a lot of love for one another, were each other's confidants etc, they had every ready-made excuse to elope/marry even if it wasn't a traditional engagement. Some couples go through that in real life on spur of the moment, hell isn't that what Vegas chapels are notorious for? Were it up to me, I'd just have Peter and MJ remarry in Vegas while holidaying.

The fact we side-stepped the long drawn out engagement process and that we made it to the altar at all was fresh and unique. The newspaper strip had a brief engagement period but it also was blissfully short. I also love what the strip did in it's version by having Peter almost walk out on the wedding to avert a crime as Spider-Man, and MJ, while annoyed, allowed him to do so...only he found out he wasn't needed and he got married there and then.

Drawn out engagement phases only invite complication, which, while I maintain that is good for stories, sometimes it forces characters to go against type or wastes readers time with fillers. Tom King's Batman run deteriorated once he began dragging out Bruce and Selina's engagement, and fully collapsed after the bait-and-switch wedding. What should have happened is the wedding issue should have come right after War of Jokes and Riddles, or the Joker two-parter should have been stuck in between those arcs.

Also, Rogue and Gambit were the most recent examples of being rushed into marriage at Marvel, having spent two and a half decades more or less apart, they had their whole relationship rebuilt from the ground up in a six-issue min-series and then married off as a bait-and-switch planned at the last minute at a creative summit. Nobody complained all that much because we all like Rogue and Gambit.

BTW, I'll try to be more civil to this guy in the future, it's just a lot of what he says annoys me because I've dealt with it so many times before, as I've said, these aren't unique/original arguments he's making, and they've been countered not just by you and me, but by a lot of more experienced fans over the years. Support Gwen if he must, but either come up with new arguments, or just be respectful of the history and why a larger fanbase prefer the realness of Mary Jane over the flimsy faux-idealist romantic fantasy of Gwen.

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lol

I never watched Smallville so I can't attest to that. In any case, I just inherently liked Lana Lang better from what I read in the comics (which is only 2011 and Rebirth). To me Lois Lane always seemed a little bitchy, workaholic, etc. And that made her somewhat unattractive to me.

Talia al Ghul was this femme fatale princess with a flare for seduction and manipulation and being linked to Ra's and the League of Assassins made her all the more appealing.

I don't much care for their redemption but rather for the heroes they pine for to fall for them. Fallen Heroes are great stories.

-

And yes, he and I would appreciate a bit more civility, it really came off as you ganging up on him. All he came here trying to say is show why HE prefers Gwen. That's it.

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#40  Edited By ZariusII

@ursaber Nothing wrong with being a workaholic, Lois is fixated on the big stories and unearthing the truth, it's made her a force to be reckoned with on par with Clark, and all without powers. She's fearless and has conviction. She commands respect, but also has the time to settle and be a caring wife and mother no matter the circumstances she's in.

As for 'bitchy', nah, she has her own mind about things and speaks her brains, she's the daughter of a general and served in military school, so you can expect a sharp witted remark from her.

As I've said, Lana was one salty bitch prior to New 52/Rebirth (boy was this era not kind to her or Wonder Woman as it pertained to Superman's love life, both were made out to be home-wreckers in waiting)

For example, she smuggled her own panties into Clark's bedroom drawer and Lois wound up finding them. Mind you, this was back when Chuck Austen was writing the books, and stories like this are what got him blacklisted.

Lana didn't improve much until what you read in the New 52, even when she was looking after Supergirl towards the end of post-crisis canon.

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@ursaber: Thank you my friend, I appreciate it.

I forgot to say this in my last post regarding the whole wedding thing so I'll say it here.

For me I do feel like having a character be married ages them up. For example I always viewed Reed Richards as the stereotypical wiser,older,more mature fatherly type and even more so after he got married and had kids. That's just how it is. Reed will more or less always be with Sue and be the mature grown up one, Johnny will forever be the young, quipy bachelor. Spider-man I feel should always lean more towards Johnny's character.

I know that in the real world everyone eventually grows old, maybe gets married, has kids, etc... and that the Marvel timeline more or less followed real world time initially and then I'm assuming they realized later on if they continued that all the characters would grow old. I mean if they let time and characters move and age at the real world rate Spider-man would be like 80 by now...

Time and age is always iffy in Marvel, some characters grow older while others stay the same age, they will always shift the timeline a bit to make more sense; for example they updated it so that Iron Man and Punisher were in Afghanistan and not Vietnam, etc. Point is the time changes but the core of the characters must stay the same. To me Spider-man must always remain the younger, quippy guy. I mean they already aged him up some with him being like a mentor to the younger characters like Spider-Gwen and Miles...

I know many people get married pretty young but generally speaking people get married when they are older, then next comes kids, and pretty soon they'll be a middle aged guy watching their kids graduate. The younger bachelor is the one that goes out and has a exciting adventure, makes jokes, etc... the married man goes home to his wife. Its just weird seeing a married mature guy joke around the way Spider-man would. I mean I guess older guys joke around too but it just feels awkward like dad jokes.

I know that as readers we wanna see characters grow and change, etc... and I know that Spider-man has been with MJ for a very long time and they've been married for a long time as well and their relationship means a lot to readers but I feel like its hard to stay true to his character if he's aged up. I mean if you want a aged up Peter who is married to MJ and has a kid there's already those Spider-girl comics. MJ got those comics, as well as marriage in 616 and other titles, etc... Meanwhile all they gave Gwen was one What if issue and House of M.

I just feel like they really mistreated Gwen. I know her death was a big moment in comics history but I wish it didn't happen. And then all those clones being brought back later on and Sins Past... all stuff she didn't deserve. They could've at least continued the what if or made an alternate reality comic title...

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@ursaber:

The best part was the writing. Josh Keaton as Peter Parker Spider-Man was incredible. His line deliveries and his quips and wit were funny as hell. He's got to be my favorite voice actor for Spider-Man.

I think its on the nose how the nerdy kid gets all the ladies. Its been like that since the 60s. Its a common trope in entertainment by now.

Black Cat was also excellent in Spectacular. Hobgoblin is one of my top three spider villains. I want to do an arc in the current Spider-Man run about his return!

Agreed that show was amazing, best Spider-man show out there.

Ehh really? Nothing except Spider-man comes to mind...

I mean I think there's a chance they could bring the show back. The Marvel Netflix shows have all been cancelled and all their animated stuff is hated. They need some shows to draw people in for Disney + , I think if they brought back Clone Wars 10 years later they can bring back Spectacular 10 years later. Seems like a curse of good shows / fan favorites is too end early or be cancelled haha. :(

Indeed. Its perfectly fine that you prefer Gwen over MJ. I prefer Lana Lang over Lois Lane for Superman, and even Talia al Ghul over Selina Kyle for Batman.

But still I do recognize that Lois Lane and Selina Kyle are the de facto primary true love interests of said heroes. The same goes for Mary Jane being Spider-Man's undisputed number one love interest.

I mean yeah I agree. I guess its a little unclear in my previous posts but that's essentially what I was trying to say. I know that MJ has been cemented as the de facto love interest for Peter and that will likely never change , but at the same time I don't have to ship it or prefer her over other girls.

I mean everyone has their own ships that they like for personal reasons and likely will never change. I mean look at the discussions on the X-men forums , people have been debating Scott with Jean vs Emma for years. Both sides bring up good points and examples but at the end of the day its unlikely any one will change sides.

But yeah I get it. I mean don't tell Hope but I know that Jean is the de facto cemented love interest for Scott , I know through the years they may date around, break up, etc... but likely always go back to one another. Doesn't mean I have to ship it too you know?

Lol I don't know much about Lana Lang, wasn't she like a love interest for Superman from way back? I'll have to look into it. Seems to me like Clark really hasn't had many love interests over the years which is surprising, its mostly always been Lois. I personally prefer him with Wonder Woman to be honest. Yeah I feel like Lois is kinda boring, but they've been together for so long like Peter and MJ and I'm pretty sure they married and she had his kid so she's cemented as the de facto love interest.

I prefer Talia for Batman as well, she's so sexy and accepts both sides of Batman. But yeah unfortunately Catwoman is the main one.

Many of the women/ships I prefer aren't the "main ones" but at the end of the day I still have my own reasons for them you know?

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@zariusii said:

@ursaber Nothing wrong with being a workaholic, Lois is fixated on the big stories and unearthing the truth, it's made her a force to be reckoned with on par with Clark, and all without powers. She's fearless and has conviction. She commands respect, but also has the time to settle and be a caring wife and mother no matter the circumstances she's in.

As for 'bitchy', nah, she has her own mind about things and speaks her brains, she's the daughter of a general and served in military school, so you can expect a sharp witted remark from her.

As I've said, Lana was one salty bitch prior to New 52/Rebirth (boy was this era not kind to her or Wonder Woman as it pertained to Superman's love life, both were made out to be home-wreckers in waiting)

For example, she smuggled her own panties into Clark's bedroom drawer and Lois wound up finding them. Mind you, this was back when Chuck Austen was writing the books, and stories like this are what got him blacklisted.

Lana didn't improve much until what you read in the New 52, even when she was looking after Supergirl towards the end of post-crisis canon.

That's just how Lois always came off to me. I'm simply not a fan of hers. She IS the one true love interest for Superman, but I personally don't care for the pair.

Lana's time as a Superwoman was also mildly entertaining. My favorite moment of hers was when she was trying to take back Superman's body back to Kansas and met New Earth Superman. That shows how much of a caring heart she had.

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@iamre321:

Please please please summarize your posts.

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ZariusII

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@ursaber: That's fine U, just trying to sell Lois from the perspective of a fan. Lana is a favourite of mine too when she's handled correctly, she was one of the only good things about New 52 Superman and her arc in Superwoman, as I said, was of vital importance to the Superman Reborn storyline. You could say we would not have the current state of the DC reality without her sacrifice, which makes the fact DC have forgotten about her quite frustrating.

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iamre321

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@ursaber: Lol sorry there's a lot of information, tried to break into readable paragraphs, but still a lot.

Basically what I was saying is I feel like marriage ages up a character, we need Spider-man to be more like Johnny and less like Reed.

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ursaber

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#47  Edited By ursaber

@iamre321: i disagree. Johnny's character archetype is regressive to say the list.

Keeping Spider-Man in a perpetual loop of youth, neither teenager nor full adult is a con against him. Spider-Man is an adult and should be an adjusted and competent one.

Even if you think marriage ages up, hopefully you sure as hell do not agree with the monstrosity of One More Day!?

Even when Peter was married, he was never this wise older adult, he was like a man starting out on his first marriage which retained a hell of a lot of youthful energy

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iamre321

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@ursaber: Read the full post earlier and you'll see what I am saying

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ursaber

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@iamre321 said:

@ursaber: Read the full post earlier and you'll see what I am saying

Marvel Comics operates on an element called Marvel Time wherein four real time years equal one Marvel Year. Ergo, only 13- 15 years have transpired since the debut of the Fantastic Four.

I don't want to see Peter in his fortys but neither do I want to see him forever in his early twenties. The oldest I want him to reach is 35 approximately, much like his status quo in Renew Your Vows. Married to MJ and with a young kid BUT NOT A TEENAGER. I HATE TEENS! Except Ultimate Spider-Man lol.

Whether Spider-Man is 15, 28 or 40 or 60, the core of who he is remains unchanged. The core of these heroes is the same no matter the age. There is such a thing as young at heart. A 40 year old man or woman can still give off youthful energetic energy.

Of all the Marvel heroes, Spider-Man is the one the most grounded, the more likely to follow through with a normal traditional life of family. He, like Reed and all these family based characters, are compatible with that kind of story path, regardless of which, they will remain the heroes they have always been, true to the ageless core of their values.

Jokes are not age restricted. There are comedians and lighthearted humorous people of every age and every walk of life. Spider-Man is the one that cracks the jokes. He does this and wears his mask so that his enemies don't know when he's afraid and to deal with the extraordinary circumstances of being Spider-Man.

I know these are your beliefs, and I respect them, but I do not agree with them and I find that most do not hold much weight for why Spider-Man shouldn't be a developed, adjusted and competent adult.

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iamre321

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@ursaber: I mean it all comes down to preferences. Characters are always changing, evolving, etc... every one has their own favorite versions, ships, etc...

Also when are you gonna reply to my 2nd post? The one right below the one about marriage.