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#108201 Posted by Phenomenal (45 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosso said:

Now I'm going back and forth with myself on whether I think Impero would make a better Jedi or Sith.

My default inkling is actually Jedi.

Oh..
Oh..

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#108202 Posted by Phenomenal (45 posts) - - Show Bio

@phenomenal: Hmmm....alright

Actually, scratch that. I want to give people more avenues to do shit. So if the Orochi are physically weakened enough, then their souls can be taken.

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#108203 Edited by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: Anyways, to get back on track. Here's why Kylo Ren himself is not a good villain.

Kylo is unfocused, almost giving the impression he has a frail personality (he's too easily offended). Worse, he looked like he was ready to cry at any moment because he hardly ever got his own way. He's a self-defeating villain whose weaknesses can be found pretty easily. Then exploited. He throws a temper tantrum every time something doesn't go his own way. Just look at the way Snoke said his mask was lame. Then Kylo throws a temper tantrum in the turbo lift, smashing it to pieces. That's just one example.

Then Kylo's struggle with the pull of the light side is not exemplified enough. The audience has to assume he is struggling with what is shown in the movie. But ultimately, Kylo doesn't struggle enough. He comes off as a child who wants his own way rather than wanting to be fully immersed in the dark side. Thus, he comes off as childish and weak. That in itself is a weak moral character.

For example: When Kylo meets up with his father, we should have seen more of a struggle as Kylo wrestles with the idea of killing his father or sparing him. But we don't see that. We don't see the inner turmoil. We see hints, maybe, but nothing really solid. Ren already decided he wanted to kill his Dad. You don't think Kylo didn't sense his father hiding? That's why he dismissed the Stormtroopers. Why do you think Kylo let Solo come closer? It was nothing more than a trap so Kylo could thrust his lightsaber in his gut. Then later, Kylo practically yells it out to Snoke that he didn't hesitate when the moment came. But notice how snide Snoke was. Snoke didn't respect Kylo, and for a reason. Kylo is a weak character.

Perhaps Kylo does have hints of being a 3-dimensional character/villain, but sadly these are far outdone with the problems prevalent with his character. A character that lost to Rey in a lightsaber duel, then was matched for a time by Finn. A character that not even Snoke took seriously. A character that threw a temper tantrum every time he didn't get his own way or got insulted. You said he did it to be free of Snoke. And you say all these things about freedom and the Sith code. I disagree. Kylo killed Snoke for one reason: He hated Snoke and wanted to control everything himself. It wasn't for freedom, it was for his own selfish ends.

And I cannot take a villain seriously with such glaring problems, the failure to beat Rey (twice) is at the top of that list. Plus, Abrams is on record stating Ren was supposed to be the next Darth Vader (who is a rich and complex character). But Kylo Ren doesn't even come close to what Darth Vader was as a character in any way, shape or form. He fails on every account.

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#108204 Posted by Duchess (6169 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108205 Posted by Shanana (60263 posts) - - Show Bio

This post is going to suck, but whatever

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#108206 Posted by Duchess (6169 posts) - - Show Bio

My brain has been reading those two usernames as the same one this whole time... lol

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#108207 Posted by Duchess (6169 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108208 Posted by Phenomenal (45 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108209 Posted by Musa_Bashir (937 posts) - - Show Bio

The Sith have doper fits/gear too

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#108210 Edited by Shield-Maiden (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

YO! I just thought of something awesome for the military of Atholis :O. I should start working on the Atholis thread and have it done before the upcoming Apollo RP.

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#108211 Posted by Shield-Maiden (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

If I do this right, it’s going to be lit.

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#108212 Posted by Musa_Bashir (937 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108213 Posted by Rosso (4662 posts) - - Show Bio

The Sith have doper fits/gear too

Of course. They wear black and have red sabers. [Quite possibly the greatest color combination of all time, no matter what you're talking about.]

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#108214 Posted by Musa_Bashir (937 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosso: The color combo and the style(s). hoods, masks (partial and full). Scarfs, capes. Crazy eye discolorations... I could go on an on but I love the entire aesthetic.

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#108215 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosso said:

Now I'm going back and forth with myself on whether I think Impero would make a better Jedi or Sith.

My default inkling is actually Jedi.

Oh..
Oh..

ROFL

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#108216 Posted by Shanana (60263 posts) - - Show Bio

Adelaide Kane was in power rangers 🤔

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#108217 Posted by Rosso (4662 posts) - - Show Bio

@musa_bashir: I am with all of that. And unlike Impero (who should change his name to Scumbag Impero), I would make a great Sith.

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#108218 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonxxx: Those things make Kylo a nuanced and deep character. He isn't a typical villain. Generally villains are given powerful personalities that dominate those around them. When the hero confronts them it is a test of both the heroes physical prowess because the villain is physically dangerous but also the strength of the heroes character because the villain attempts to dominate them mentally and up to this point the villain has always displayed dominance over everyone they have confronted.

Look at Vader. Meets Leia, has her tortured. Obi, kills him. Han, effortlessly deflects his blaster shot and captures him. Luke, chops off his hand. Everyone around him (except the emperor, the ultimate badguy) is 'beneath' Vader.. until the very end where Luke violently overcomes both Vader's powerful personality and his physical strength. (Notice that Thanos is doing the same thing and is the same mix of a powerful and compelling personality and overwhelming physical might.)

Kylo is an altogether different kind of villain. He has depth. He has complexity. He kills Han but spares Leia. Tries to please his master and then rejects him. He isn't overwhelmingly powerful physically. Not against Rey, not against Snoke (whom he kills via subterfuge) not against Snoke's guards or Luke or anyone. Nor does he successfully dominate his minions with his personality the way Vader did. They don't think that highly of him.

He is unique. More like an evil Anakin (not respected by the Jedi, increasingly finds himself in conflict with his master Kenobi, fails to defeat Dooku and looses his hand in the process.) Neither a true hero nor a true villain. Absolutely fascinating character and well played by Adam Driver. He also has a unique motivation (freedom) that drives everything about his character, as a Skywalker should.

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#108219 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio

Whichever methodology randomly gets rid of half the population is the one I'm down with.

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#108220 Posted by Phenomenal (45 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosso said:

@musa_bashir: I am with all of that. And unlike Impero (who should change his name to Scumbag Impero), I would make a great Sith.

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#108221 Posted by Phenomenal (45 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, Brian Ortega wears fangs? LMAO.

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#108222 Posted by Shanana (60263 posts) - - Show Bio

I’m feeling outlaw queenish

😈

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#108223 Posted by Rosso (4662 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108224 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade:

Those things make Kylo a nuanced and deep character. He isn't a typical villain.

How is he a deep character when he throws a temper tantrum every time he doesn't get his way? How he is a deep villain when he looks like he's ready to cry in every scene? Your right, he's not a typical villain. He's a cardboard cutout.

Generally villains are given powerful personalities that dominate those around them. When the hero confronts them it is a test of both the heroes physical prowess because the villain is physically dangerous but also the strength of the heroes character because the villain attempts to dominate them mentally and up to this point the villain has always displayed dominance over everyone they have confronted.

And if we're talking about Kylo the same way, he's the opposite of that. Not only is he a cardboard cutout, but he's not even a physical threat. He doesn't even look menacing.

Look at Vader. Meets Leia, has her tortured. Obi, kills him. Han, effortlessly deflects his blaster shot and captures him. Luke, chops off his hand. Everyone around him (except the emperor, the ultimate badguy) is 'beneath' Vader.. until the very end where Luke violently overcomes both Vader's powerful personality and his physical strength. (Notice that Thanos is doing the same thing and is the same mix of a powerful and compelling personality and overwhelming physical might.)

There's a huge difference between Vader, Thanos and Kylo. Vader and Thanos had their characters and motivations explored (especially in the Vader comics) and Thanos has been around for decades where he's had plenty of character growth and development. What does Kylo have? A few movies and maybe a few comic book appearances? The movies barely, if ever, bothered to explore anything with Kylo. Sure, Luke almost killed him in the past and Kylo left because of it, but that wasn't deep character progression nor was it character development. It caused Kylo pain, but we never really see the inner conflict it's supposed to cause. Luke almost killed him, Kylo was defending himself. We get a hint of something else and that's all we get. That isn't character depth at all. That's the illusion of character depth.

Kylo is an altogether different kind of villain. He has depth. He has complexity. He kills Han but spares Leia. Tries to please his master and then rejects him. He isn't overwhelmingly powerful physically. Not against Rey, not against Snoke (whom he kills via subterfuge) not against Snoke's guards or Luke or anyone. Nor does he successfully dominate his minions with his personality the way Vader did. They don't think that highly of him.

So, killing Han and glossing over (for the most part) that inner conflict is character depth? Kylo trying to please his master then gets rejected is character depth? How is he physically portrayed character depth? None of these things were explored in depth, not like Vader and Thanos.

He is unique. More like an evil Anakin (not respected by the Jedi, increasingly finds himself in conflict with his master Kenobi, fails to defeat Dooku and looses his hand in the process.) Neither a true hero nor a true villain. Absolutely fascinating character and well played by Adam Driver. He also has a unique motivation (freedom) that drives everything about his character, as a Skywalker should.

Well, I'm glad you seem to see all of that because I don't. Thanos loved Gamora as a daughter, which surprised her. We see the inner turmoil it caused Thanos, he shed a tear. Then he tosses her over the side. THAT is character depth. Vader wants to save Padme because he loves her, he's desperate to find a way, but fails to find it. So, he turns to the dark side because he feels the Jedi failed him and to save Padme since he's been fooled into thinking Palpatine has all the answers. THAT is character depth. Being disrespected, beaten by lesser beings with no training, killing his father with very little inner conflict, sparing Leia with only a hint of conflict within, throwing a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way, etc, isn't character depth. All of that is the hints of character depth, but never fully explored. It's like the director is teasing us, giving us a taste of what Kylo "could" be but never delivering upon it.

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#108225 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio

@paragonxxx: Good post Paragon. I feel like I have made the case for Kylo and I will let you have the last word.

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#108226 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: *HUGS* Thank you. You made some good points and it was a good debate. ^_^

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#108227 Posted by Tenjin (2421 posts) - - Show Bio

I work at a micro pub, it’s in the name of the bar, and I honestly get asked at least three times a day if I serve Bud light -_________-

No sir, I don’t serve semi-alcoholic corn water

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#108228 Posted by Duchess (6169 posts) - - Show Bio

Ch ch chopper eat like lobster.

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#108229 Posted by Rosso (4662 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I can't get behind Joanna at all for refusing to acknowledge both losses to Rose, there's something almost admirable [and I would find it admirable if she could at least acknowledge that she did in fact lose] about how she hasn't lost a bit of faith in herself. At first it just came off as pure ego protection [and on some level it still may be part ego protection], but there's definitely a strong shade of just mental resilience that's like...that perfect shade of pathological that she needs to be great at her craft.

But Valentina is just way too endearing, and I wanted her to have won the 135 belt anyway, so I need this.

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#108230 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio

Impero is a great Darth name.

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#108231 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108232 Edited by Duchess (6169 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108233 Edited by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio

HOW on EARTH the 2018 Game Awards can classify Monster Hunter: World as an RPG, and allegedly WINNING that category, is BEYOND my understanding. A supposed win that game does NOT deserve. There are ZERO RPG elements in that game. It's just a mindless hack and slash. And HOW on EARTH AC: Odyssey isn't even in that category when it IS an RPG is just BEYOND stupid. If anything, Odyssey not only SHOULD have been included in that category but it should have EASILY won it.

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#108234 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio

This would be a good time for Obi to return (hint hint if you're out there Obi.)

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#108235 Posted by Shield-Maiden (1394 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108236 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108237 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108238 Posted by Rosso (4662 posts) - - Show Bio

I just got annoyed for no reason at all.

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#108239 Edited by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio

On one hand, I'm upset that AC: Odyssey didn't win the Game of The Year. It deserved it. Not one award in other category's either. Really?! Talk about a snub a GREAT masterpiece of a game didn't deserve.

On the other hand, I'm happy God of War won the Game of the Year award. That was a surprising one considering I've never played it. I may have to buy it now to see what all the hubub is about.

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#108240 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosso said:

I just got annoyed for no reason at all.

*LOL* Rosso, you have so much character and personality quarks. Never change. ^_^

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#108241 Posted by Nordok (2132 posts) - - Show Bio

God of War may have won, but Red Dead Redemption 2 has the best fail videos on the entire internet.

Moderator
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#108242 Posted by DreadpooI (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@shield-maiden: Hello hello :-)

Breaking my lurking streak to tell ya....I think you missed Shield-Maiden's Obi Wan/Grievous reference there, xD

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#108243 Posted by Hawkshade (4572 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108244 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108245 Posted by DreadpooI (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: Happens, lol.

Anyway, back to lurking for me. G'night!

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#108246 Posted by DreadpooI (21 posts) - - Show Bio
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#108247 Posted by Rosso (4662 posts) - - Show Bio

What do coding and leg day have in common?

Back-end development.

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#108248 Edited by Rosso (4662 posts) - - Show Bio

I just made myself laugh imagining the probably really small overlap that means that joke would almost completely fall flat with either one of those groups.

But it's a Zauby original so I'm proud of it.

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#108249 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosso: I laughed. And now I know it's a Zauby original, I love it even more. Good job, Rosso. ^_^

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#108250 Posted by ParagonxXx (3503 posts) - - Show Bio