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#2501 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I'm thinking about corrupting Richard instead of fighting him:

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#2502 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2503 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2504 Posted by Musa_Bashir (984 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW Anyone (but especially Nova) says they're gonna post

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#2505 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW Leia get's hit by spellcheck but Vader doesn't:

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#2506 Posted by Trinity-Blue (4129 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW some scumbag thinks I'm bluffing

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#2507 Posted by ParagonxXx (3556 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I say call me back in a few hours and they forget.

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#2508 Posted by Musa_Bashir (984 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW Its. Go. Time.

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#2509 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I miss a reference.

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#2510 Posted by Musa_Bashir (984 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I find a good Av

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#2511 Posted by Faatina_Knightfall (197 posts) - - Show Bio
MFW
MFW

I tell someone not to do something, and what I warned them about happens

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#2512 Posted by Musa_Bashir (984 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2513 Posted by Faatina_Knightfall (197 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2514 Posted by Musa_Bashir (984 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2515 Posted by Faatina_Knightfall (197 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2516 Posted by Duchess (6171 posts) - - Show Bio

I think about WatXM season 2

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#2517 Posted by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW fools think they're slick

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#2518 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW Zauby says my heroes don't believe in altruism for altruism's sake

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#2519 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

@grimmwald: That is one thing I love about your heroes. To them altruism isn't a virtue alone. It must be justified by some need.

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#2520 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: Thanks! That's something I always like to explore with my heroic characters, the flaws in believing in a preexisting moral obligation to others/everyone. In general, I like characters who complicate traditional black and white ethical standards. That's why I loved characters like Amaranth.

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#2521 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

@grimmwald: It makes for compelling and interesting characters too. I like feuding with you because of it lol. The philosophical differences between Grimmwald and Hawkshade give their story an additional layer.

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#2522 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: I think so too. My favorite kinds of stories often revolve around ethical standards being complicated. LOL, in a way it reminds me of HHH and HBK. I love the philosophical differences between Grimm and Hawkshade. One has sacrificed his individuality for his goal, and the other would never sacrifice his individuality for a goal. And all the other philosophical nuances of the feud are interesting as well. Richard represents a lot of the core aspects of the human condition, and Kellan represents an impersonal aspects of a monster who has given up his humanity.

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#2523 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

@grimmwald: Another interesting thing is Grimmwald is doing what he is doing to help other people. (Some may say he goes too far but his motivations are altruistic; to save Gothic from criminals.) Where as Hawkshade is doing what he is doing for himself. Yes, he does care deeply about others but fundamentally he fights crime to atone for his past crimes and become a person he wants to be.

So despite the fact that Grimmwald is in the conventional role of the villain (attacking Gothic, spreading terror) he is acting to save others and despite the fact Hawkshade is in the conventional role of the hero (defending Gothic) he is acting to benefit himself (albeit on a moral instead of a physical level.)

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#2524 Edited by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: Exactly my thoughts. Richard is an antihero. He's brutal and self-serving and while he does have noble traits, his heroic activity is almost entirely based on a personal obsession with his own past. Kellan on the other hand is an anti-villain. He's morally ambiguous, even morally questionable but still retains some noble traits in that while his means can be and are horrifying, his ends are noble and concerned more with a moral dilemma as opposed to a deeply personal one. It's a great ideological contrast.

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#2525 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

@grimmwald: I never take a stand on my characters identity when I am playing them, a large part of the fun is letting people decide what they think about the character on their own. (Which leads to some interesting surprises, such as Ivana's popularity.) So I won't say he is an anti-hero, or a hero, or a villain or anything else but I do love that analysis. I try to make my characters complex enough to be worth a debate about who or what they truly are.

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#2526 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: I think that's a really good approach to take, especially because (from my perspective at least) Richard isn't just an antihero, he's also an outlaw archetype, just like his mother was.

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#2527 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

@grimmwald: That is interesting. What do you mean, if I might ask?

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#2528 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: Richard, like Ivana, very stubbornly sticks to his his beliefs and principles. It's either his way or no way at all. He's very unwilling to compromise because he has a low desire to please others, and that makes him disagreeable and harsh to a lot of people and less likely to work well in groups with people who do not share his values. And this has forced him to become self-reliant. In Ivana's case, that self-reliance translates into supreme martial arts mastery, but in Richard's case it translates to a high-level of competence in every area a heroic vigilante typically needs to be competent in e.g. martial arts, gadgetry etc.

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#2529 Posted by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: Thanks! That's something I always like to explore with my heroic characters, the flaws in believing in a preexisting moral obligation to others/everyone. In general, I like characters who complicate traditional black and white ethical standards. That's why I loved characters like Amaranth.

I enjoy characters like this because they also introduce additional nuance, conflict, and interest by the nature of interactions with others. So that when they come into conflict with those who do have more traditional standards (depending on the writer) - a Richard, or even more firmly rooted in traditional morals [she's like a mix of the two], an Abigail - it forces those characters to really examine themselves, wrestle with what they believe and forces them to change in some way.

Or the situation with Leo and Trinity, and [based on a hypothetical conversation] Shield Maiden or others who get close to Leo. Someone like her is rooted somewhat in traditional morals, and she looks at Leo a certain way because he approached her with a noble goal...but he does not have the same values as she does [not all of them]. He watched with very little concern as Trinity exposed an entire planet's population to an extinction-level event, and he still called her friend. So, were someone like Helena to get close to him and then find out about that, then there's an additional internal-external conflict which they must grapple with.

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#2530 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

@rosso: I've always felt like a confrontation between someone like Grimmwald (pre-Soul Lavaliere) and Abigail would be interesting because I don't imagine either character leaving that confrontation the same way they entered it. From an ideological standpoint, I could see both having a certain impact on the other, especially because they ultimately both have noble ends in mind, but how their means and moral philosophies are different. Abigail cares more about saving the innocent whereas Grimmwald cares more about punishing the guilty.

I love the potential for ideological conflict that Leo and Helena have. Because Leo is very morally ambiguous and more self-interested than anything. He's meant to be the opposite of Thee Champion in certain ways. Thee Champion believes in altruism for altruism's sake, whereas Leo feels like it's ridiculous for one to live their lives in accordance to a preexisting moral obligation to strangers one has never met. He's very callous and while he can be charming, his noble goals almost always have something to do with self-interest.

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#2531 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawkshade: Richard, like Ivana, very stubbornly sticks to his his beliefs and principles. It's either his way or no way at all. He's very unwilling to compromise because he has a low desire to please others, and that makes him disagreeable and harsh to a lot of people and less likely to work well in groups with people who do not share his values. And this has forced him to become self-reliant. In Ivana's case, that self-reliance translates into supreme martial arts mastery, but in Richard's case it translates to a high-level of competence in every area a heroic vigilante typically needs to be competent in e.g. martial arts, gadgetry etc.

Yeah that is really at the core of both characters. It was true for his mother and it is true of him as well. (I think a number of personality traits are heritable.) Richard sees everything his way and if anyone disagrees, well, they're just wrong.

That trait can be a great benefit to him, for example it allowed him to escape the Strigidae and reject the temptation offered by Grimmwald's path. But in other ways it hurts him because he is not particularly likable and has no heroic allies left except Ashley and Connor.

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#2532 Posted by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

@grimmwald: Well, there's still a chance, if he can be saved. I think it'd be super interesting and I'm not entirely sure how it'd affect them both, but I'd look forward to seeing the moral dilemmas that arose. I even get a certain giddiness for that when I think how she'd interact with Richard; because even though he does good, his motivations are selfish, and that's a bit of friction itself. Especially because of the way it would seem to manifest in his actions. Abigail is not only a "no-kill" hero; she's about minimizing brutality if at all possible, as much as possible, and Richard is basically "screw their quality of life. They're criminals. They get no kindness whatsoever." And although he deals with Ashley, she's much more passive, whereas Abigail has become a bit jaded by experience and her tolerance for oppositional viewpoints has decreased as well. [She's also dealing with a lot of instability in that regard.]

I'm really excited for that as well because I see the path that things may be going down with Leo and Helena, but that's a gaping hole in the interpersonal dynamic that can't really be ignored, especially because of the way she and Leo met--help me stop the Imperium because they're terrible--when Trinity is also terrible, extremely destructive as well as comparatively unpredictable, and he's shown no desire to stop her. Speaking of Leo, you gotta post.

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#2533 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW some rando challenges me to a duel and I obliterate them inside thirty seconds:

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#2534 Posted by Feral Nova (57584 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I hear babies cry

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#2535 Edited by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

When I see my vengeance observed on fighters I hate

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#2536 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW Zauby and I are dueling about who'll post next on Augusta

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#2537 Posted by Trinity-Blue (4129 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW my post has at least one of the desired effects on Impero

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#2538 Posted by Grimmwald (3088 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW Richard still refuses to see the light

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#2540 Posted by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I have to choose between Ashley and Grimm

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#2541 Posted by The_Xsoteric (1127 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW They stay praising Aquaman

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#2542 Posted by Hawkshade (4606 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW They stay praising Aquaman

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Somehow the majority of critics like it. I am suspicious, to say the least.

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#2543 Posted by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW someone offers me a "CBD gummy"

but then I remember he rarely washes his hands as he tries to hand it to me

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#2544 Posted by The_Xsoteric (1127 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2545 Posted by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW someone who claims himself to be a fighter tells me I need to curb my aggressive nature

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MFW non-fighters try to give me fighting advice

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#2546 Posted by Musa_Bashir (984 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW the smartest dude I know has been led astray and needs

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#2547 Posted by Tessa_Callahan (1632 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW people see the light

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#2548 Posted by Musa_Bashir (984 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I check the schedule to see who's next

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#2549 Posted by KingLouie (2026 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW it's booty shorts season

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#2550 Posted by Rosso (4711 posts) - - Show Bio

MFW I'm tempted...

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