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Posted by gmanfromheck (42524 posts) - - Show Bio
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#1 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (12493 posts) - - Show Bio

TAKE THE RED PILL MAT!!!

Is Kilgrave telling G-Man to slap himself!?!?!?
~MiB

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#2 Posted by FearTheLiving (8837 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Skull could come back as well we don't really know what happened. He's most likely gonna stay "dead" though more so due to the actor not wanting to come back and not that the character is dead.

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#3 Posted by SynCig (1105 posts) - - Show Bio

The argument was a little ridiculous, guys, but it was entertaining at least. My only qualm with anything said was Tony's comparison to the Spider-Man movies. Kilgrave is dead but there are a lot of different directions you can go and unlike Sony's handling of Spider-Man, Marvel Studios seems willing to broaden their focus beyond just the few most recognizable villains in their universe. Personally, I am glad Kilgrave is dead. He was a great villain but I don't necessarily want him to come back. This season is all I need of him. Let the writers come up with new threats.

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#4 Posted by NightFang3 (12363 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm with Tony on this one. Stop killing off the great villain!

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#5 Posted by vlonewolfv (21 posts) - - Show Bio

There are two ways to approach the Kilgrave issue that was discussed.

1) You have to ignore the comic book precedence and ask yourself, "Was killing Kilgrave, the best thing for THIS story?" For me it was a yes. This was almost a reverse Daredevil. Matt spent almost the whole show convinced he should kill Fisk, until he decides to become a hero and just gets him arrested. Jessica spent the whole show trying to get Kilgrave arrested, only to succumb to her darker tendencies and kill him. Hope killing herself to free Jessica was amazing and leads me to my second point.

2) Jessica is NOT a hero. She is just a broken person trying to survive. Was murdering Kilgrave the legal thing to do? Absolutely not. Could you understand why she did what she did? Most definitely. Jessica may have been the protagonist, but she rarely exhibited any heroic tendencies. And the show knows it. The final scene is her being completely apathetic to the people calling her for help. She has a long way to go before she climbs out of the hole Kilgrave put her in and call herself a hero.

Those are really the defining points of the show. As a comic book fan we can complain that they keep killing villains off, and in some cases I feel there is an argument to be made. But Jessica killing Kilgrave was the natural ending to THIS story and character arc.

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#6 Edited by Overmonitor (1515 posts) - - Show Bio

@vlonewolfv: I was under the impression Hope killed herself because Kilgrave told her to either prior to the scene or while it was happening

Only watched once about a week ago, could be wrong.

That being said great points.

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#7 Posted by vlonewolfv (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@overmonitor: Thanks.

Yeah, Hope killed herself, it was not part of Kilgrave's plan. The whole show, Jessica felt that if she could prove Hope was innocent, then it would prove that she wasn't guilty for being with him either. That's why there was the single mindedness about arresting him. With Hope gone, she sacrificed her state of mind to take him off the streets for good.

This ties in with what Malcolm was saying about how much of what he was doing was already in him. Remember it's not mind control, strictly speaking. When he gives a command, you suddenly WANT to do it. He makes you WANT what he says. And when that kind of violation happens, how can you trust anything you do? So Jessica needed Hope to absolve herself. AGHH!!!! I love this show. Even the guy with the jacket that Kilgrave took had a right to be freaked out. Yes it's small and inconsequential, but how do you trust anything after that kind thing?!?!

I could go on for hours about the psychological impact and meaning, but yeah. Great show. haha

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#8 Posted by Wilhelm_Dolle (26 posts) - - Show Bio

@vlonewolfv: Very true. The question is not, whether Killgrave's death was necessary, but if it fit Jessica's character arc. The protagonist of a show doesn't have to be likable, perfect or always abiding the law. We love Walter White and Frank Castle for so many other reasons.

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#9 Posted by JewishDork (498 posts) - - Show Bio

Very good discussion about Jessica Jones. I thought that Jessica killing Killgrave was justified. She spent the majority of the season trying to get the evidence to convict him but it reached a point where she felt like he could no longer live. Before the finale, I thought she was just going to crush his vocal cords.

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#10 Posted by WarDishy_ (1252 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys, Flash and Arrow aren't done for the winter just yet. They still have an episode each this week.

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#11 Posted by D9000 (1637 posts) - - Show Bio

Love the debate, couldn't disagree with Tony more.

He totally missed the fact that Jessica spent three quarters of the show (if not more) trying her absolute hardest to not only arrest Kilgrave, but convict him as well. Granted it may have been for somewhat selfish reasons but still she tried even though it seemed Hopeless at times.

@vlonewolfv: The psychology of this series was excellent! She was sort of in the Batman/Joker paradox. If she kept trying to "do the right thing" and have him arrested legally more people would have absolutely died. She did do the right thing, even though it was also a very selfish thing for her because she really wanted her revenge. It can be two things right?

I also never thought of the comparison to DD. That's a good point too. I wonder how they'll get along in The Defenders? By that point DD will have met The Punisher so he may be even more against killing bad guys.

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#12 Posted by inferiorego (25734 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardishy said:

You guys, Flash and Arrow aren't done for the winter just yet. They still have an episode each this week.

I realized that last night. Don't worry, there will be a review of Flash tonight.... Old school Trickster returns! So pumped!

The confusion was that there was a promo video a few weeks back that said the Crossover was the winter finale, or was it a new piece (not written by us)?

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#13 Posted by mrkareemruiz (477 posts) - - Show Bio

Killgrave is to evil to not be killed

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#14 Edited by saoakden (1285 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's a good thing Kilgrave is dead. That guy was to dangerous to keep alive. If they had found a way to cancel out his powers than yeah he could have been locked up, but since they didn't then their only choice was to kill him. Yes they could of looked him up but he had gotten so powerful that he was able to tell people to do whatever he wanted through the speakers and at the beginning he couldn't do that. If I recall Jessica needed him alive so he can set Hope free by proving her innocence. He couldn't confess for his actions his vocal cords were smashed and knowing him he wouldn't write it down. It probably would have said go screw themselves. With Spider-Man Norman set up the glider to kill Spider-Man but he dodged it and the glider killed Osborn. Osborn killed himself. Ra's ah Ghul in Batman Begins, I recall at one point that I believe someone on the podcast said that Ra's ah Ghul had been saved before but Batman let him die because he realize couldn't been saved.

As for Civil War it does look like most of it is Cap protecting Bucky from the government. & if I recall I think I read somewhere Iron Man is working with the government to atone for his actions in Age of Ultron.

I enjoyed the crossovers with Flash/Arrow. Although Arrow's highest rating with the Flash crossover does concern me. Vandal Savage was interesting and how many people know who Oliver & Barry are? Every main character and their family that's who.

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#15 Edited by Avatar_of_Green (3212 posts) - - Show Bio

@saoakden said:

I think it's a good thing Kilgrave is dead. That guy was to dangerous to keep alive. If they had found a way to cancel out his powers than yeah he could have been locked up, but since they didn't then their only choice was to kill him. Yes they could of looked him up but he had gotten so powerful that he was able to tell people to do whatever he wanted through the speakers and at the beginning he couldn't do that. If I recall Jessica needed him alive so he can set Hope free by proving her innocence. He couldn't confess for his actions his vocal cords were smashed and knowing him he wouldn't write it down. It probably would have said go screw themselves. With Spider-Man Norman set up the glider to kill Spider-Man but he dodged it and the glider killed Osborn. Osborn killed himself. Ra's ah Ghul in Batman Begins, I recall at one point that I believe someone on the podcast said that Ra's ah Ghul had been saved before but Batman let him die because he realize couldn't been saved.

As for Civil War it does look like most of it is Cap protecting Bucky from the government. & if I recall I think I read somewhere Iron Man is working with the government to atone for his actions in Age of Ultron.

I enjoyed the crossovers with Flash/Arrow. Although Arrow's highest rating with the Flash crossover does concern me. Vandal Savage was interesting and how many people know who Oliver & Barry are? Every main character and their family that's who.

Devil's Advocate: Why not use that drug on him permanently until they find a way to control the virus? Wouldn't that virus come in VERY useful if the good guys could deploy it?

I couldn't help but laugh at Barry at least acknowledging how ridiculous the tropes are becoming. He literally says "Oh... Come on!" when Cisco accidentally reveals Barry's identity to Kendra (Shayera) and the line about Malcolm "Is that the only way this guy knows how to enter a room?" were great for me, because right before each of those instances I was literally thinking what he was saying.

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#16 Posted by saoakden (1285 posts) - - Show Bio

@avatar_of_green: Hmm idk. I feel like with Kilgrave's power, a person could go to far with it. Either that or it be to easy take care of something. Like Civil War, everybody get along!, ok what do we do for the next 2 hours? I don't know.

But yeah, seriously that was amusing to see. Come on people why does everybody know their secret identity. & Malcolm just sneaking in, that was very amusing. & to answer that question, no it's not but he's an assassin, he can enter however he wants because he's not just an ordinary assassin he is RA'S AL GHUL!! Seriously that guy has always something bad going on. Most bad things that have happen on Arrow can be traced back to him. The earthquake, the assassins, the apocalypse.

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#17 Posted by Avatar_of_Green (3212 posts) - - Show Bio

@saoakden said:

@avatar_of_green: Hmm idk. I feel like with Kilgrave's power, a person could go to far with it. Either that or it be to easy take care of something. Like Civil War, everybody get along!, ok what do we do for the next 2 hours? I don't know.

But yeah, seriously that was amusing to see. Come on people why does everybody know their secret identity. & Malcolm just sneaking in, that was very amusing. & to answer that question, no it's not but he's an assassin, he can enter however he wants because he's not just an ordinary assassin he is RA'S AL GHUL!! Seriously that guy has always something bad going on. Most bad things that have happen on Arrow can be traced back to him. The earthquake, the assassins, the apocalypse.

I have thought about that before, 99% of people, heroes included (besides maybe Cap), would use his power for evil or selfish purposes or it would ruin any conflict, like you wrote.

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#18 Edited by TheMantisShrimp (453 posts) - - Show Bio

Killgrave's death was definitely warranted, story wise she tried to not resort to killing, to the point where everyone around her kept saying "kill him". Jessica is not portrayed as a your canonical hero in this series (arguably not even a hero at all) so I was surprised it took her that long to decide killing was her best option. From a business perspective I imagine at best Jessica Jones will appear in Luke Cage's show, Defenders and maybe a season 2. I'm not so interested in seeing Kilgrave again after this season, they did him a great service and left me totally satisfied. Although breaking his vocal cords would have been pretty funny and ironic.

A fair amount of McU villians are still alive, sure some die but this is a different media than comics and warrents a different approach. We still have Loki, Fisk and Hydra (as an entity). Nuke can be used as a villain later. The Red Skull could be brought back if they recast. Zola may still be around if he uploaded his conciseness somewhere. It seems unlikely but Ultron could be rationally brought back. Badroc is alive. Technically the leader exists somewhere in the McU. Cossbones is around (I'm hoping he makes it through Civil War). I bet if you did the math Matt would be correct with the 50:50 alive:dead ratio.

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#19 Posted by saoakden (1285 posts) - - Show Bio

@avatar_of_green: I thought about what I do if I had that power, first thing that came to mind was convincing people to give me a job I could do. I wouldn't be comfortable making people do what I want them to do. I feel like Cap would object to using Kilgrave because I feel like in Winter Soldier he was very concerned about people's freedom since the shield helicarriers, sorry If I spelled that wrong, would be hovering about everybody and they could just shoot down any bad guy and basically holding everybody hostage. Be good or get shot. & I feel like that Kilgrave's power takes people's free will away. I remember some characters saying that they didn't want to do what Kilgrave told them to do, but they couldn't stop themselves.

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#20 Posted by starz007 (350 posts) - - Show Bio

@g_man I agree with you that Jessica killing the villain was not self defense, but she it probably qualifies as defense of others. "Generally, the defendant must have a reasonable belief that the third party is in a position where they would have the right of self-defense." Killgrave had ordered the crowd to kill each other, and I think her actions could reasonably be argued to be in the defense of those people.

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#21 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm with Tony on this one. Stop killing off the great villain!

Why? They will never use them again and there is no way Jessica wouldn't kill them.

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#22 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (45774 posts) - - Show Bio

@g_man@inferiorego guys this argument isn't about capital punishment, it's about killing in defense of yourself or the others around you.

Also Kilgrave has a healing factor